Why deadra people still cooperate with worm cult?

AvalonRanger · October 19

Why deadra people still cooperate with worm cult?

Mannimarco used Molag-Bal for becoming god himself. So he betrayed Molag-Bal.
I thought deadra people hate worm cult side now. But they still cooperate each other.

Why?

Soarora · October 19

Daedra don’t really have a choice if they’re summoned by a mortal. If they’re not being summoned then they may see personal gain from their service. Daedra aren’t sworn to the god they come from or even the realm they live in, they’re sworn to themselves and/or to their clan.

AvalonRanger · October 19

Soarora wrote: »

Daedra don’t really have a choice if they’re summoned by a mortal. If they’re not being summoned then they may see personal gain from their service. Daedra aren’t sworn to the god they come from or even the realm they live in, they’re sworn to themselves and/or to their clan.

Once I read the dairy of deadra ESO lore book. It's a story of deadra who were summoned by mortal.
According to lore book, most of deadra couldn't get any of decent reward as mortal's servant, but
just become mortal's poor slave. And killed by mortals so many times.

Just I thought, why deadra don't try to invent cancel spell against summoning so far.
"I --- DON'T --- WANT TO DO --- SUCH --- A --- TERRIBLE--- JOB --- good bye mortals."

Syldras · October 19

I've been wondering the same, and unfortunately, the game never gives an explanation. It's just a plot hole (sadly not the only one this year) and doesn't get resolved in Part 2 of the story either (I've finished it on PTS).

In the Solstice story, the Worm Cult and Molag Bal are allied again for unknown reasons (or maybe the writers didn't take into consideration how the base game story ended - at least it feels this way). Worm Cultist npcs praise Molag Bal in ambient dialogue. And Molag Bal sent them a whole daedric clan for cooperation (we also see them together in dungeons, fighting side by side), so they aren't just summoned against their will:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Our_Darkbinder_Allies

At first I thought maybe there will be some turn of events in the Solstice story after the end of Part 1, and the cooperation could end again (I would have also found it an interesting story to see a conflict between the Worm Cult and Molag Bal breaking out, with the player character somehow getting into the middle of it and having to make difficult decisions), but no, it doesn't. The story just acts as the base game ending never happened.

Pinja · October 19

I can't say it's too cannon, but members of the worm cult were never scheming to make Manamorco a god. They were scheming to cheat death and that required Manamorco's teachings and Molog Bal's soul magic.

Syldras · October 19

Pinja wrote: »

I can't say it's too cannon, but members of the worm cult were never scheming to make Manamorco a god. They were scheming to cheat death and that required Manamorco's teachings and Molog Bal's soul magic.

Do you have a source for that? I don't think there's really much lore on why the average cultist even joins.

Anyway, the problem emerges at latest at the end of Part 1 of the Solstice story, because it's just not plausible from that point on. Even if the average cultists might have just been interested in worshipping Molag Bal to that point.

Ingel_Riday · October 19

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Why deadra people still cooperate with worm cult?

Mannimarco used Molag-Bal for becoming god himself. So he betrayed Molag-Bal.
I thought deadra people hate worm cult side now. But they still cooperate each other.

Why?

Good points all around.

Now that I think of it, the Solstice main questline never conveys why the Daedra of Molag Bal and the Worm Cult are still working together after Mannimarco's double-cross. I had assumed that the Worm Cult needed to do the reverse planemeld to get access to Mannimarco's imprisoned soul for the ressurection spell / blood sacrifice. Otherwise, he'd be out of their reach. Also, they still had some good ties with some of the more sadistic Daedra within Coldharbour and called in their favors.

However, the game never actually states any of the above. That was just my head-canon filling in plot holes, haha.

A shame to find out that Part 2 doesn't close up the loose ends. Oh well. I'll just cling to my head-canon and shrug along.

Edit addiition: on the plus side, we got to see some more Coldharbour aesthetic. I did miss our home away from home.

RaddlemanNumber7 · October 19

One of this Season's loading screens shows Molag Bal's position in all this. Dominating the daedra, driving them forward to make his schemes a reality.

LootAllTheStuff · October 19

Syldras wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

I can't say it's too cannon, but members of the worm cult were never scheming to make Manamorco a god. They were scheming to cheat death and that required Manamorco's teachings and Molog Bal's soul magic.

Do you have a source for that? I don't think there's really much lore on why the average cultist even joins.

Anyway, the problem emerges at latest at the end of Part 1 of the Solstice story, because it's just not plausible from that point on. Even if the average cultists might have just been interested in worshipping Molag Bal to that point.

I've never understood why any of the Daedric cultists joined their cult. The attitude of Molag Bal and cohort towards mortals are not exactly a secret: betrayal, loss of soul, eternal torture, or death seem to be the only rewards on offer. Some seem to. have projected their lust for power onto the Daedric Prince they worship - see Lady Estre for a prime example - but it never works out for any of them. Even the "good" ones don't exactly seem to care that much.

As for why Molag Bal would continue to send Daedra to aid the Worm Cult: he really doesn't care about collateral damage if it serves his purpose. And Daedra are essentially an inexhaustible resource since they always reform after being 'dead' for a bit - they never truly die.

spartaxoxo · October 19

I actually didn't get the idea that Molag Bal hated the worm cult so much as Mannimarco. Did I miss something?

Syldras · October 19

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

As for why Molag Bal would continue to send Daedra to aid the Worm Cult: he really doesn't care about collateral damage if it serves his purpose. And Daedra are essentially an inexhaustible resource since they always reform after being 'dead' for a bit - they never truly die.

I don't think Molag Bal cares in any way about his daedra. The question is why he'd send them out to aid a cult of mortals now? This was not the case during the base game main quest.

But the bigger problem for me really is the end of Part 1 of the Solstice story. Just in case:

In the base game main quest Molag Bal learnt about Mannimarco's betrayal and kept him a prisoner to torture him forever. The Vestige might or might not have helped Mannimarco to flee at some point later.

Now, fast forward to Solstice: The cult is alive again and it's huge, its cultists worship Molag Bal. Their new leader still tries to bring Mannimarco back, where ever in Coldharbor his soul might be (still tortured on the altar or roaming around somewhere). Would Molag Bal, or would the Worm Cultists who now worship Molag Bal, approve of this? If Molag Bal gave Mannimarco a second chance - which I don't think sounds probable with the typical mindset of "the strong dominate the weak" and the whole "torturing the ones who failed serving him" thing - why would Wormblood need to conduct a complicated ritual to bring him back?

Okay, now let's assume Wormblood was harboring this plan in secret. So basically another betrayer to Molag Bal. Cheesy story, but fine. But then the whole allyship between the Worm Cult and Molag Bal and his daedra would collapse as soon as Mannimarco is back. Which could have even made an interesting story, like any kind of conflict that could have come up: Mannimarco against Molag Bal (enraged about years of torture), or Wormblood against Mannimarco (not exactly happy about his body getting possessed - they could have made a story about Wormblood's soul ending who knows where and seeking revenge), in any way, some internal conflict that could have made an interesting situation to engage with as the Vestige. Maybe even with a need to side with one individual somehow, to prevents some even worse outcome for the world.

Also, a schism between the Worm Cult and Molag Bal at this point would have been a nice way to transition the situation closer to how the Worm Cult was in TES 2 Daggerfall: No Molag Bal connections, no daedra worship at all, just necromancy and Mannimarco trying to fulfill his personal godhood dreams in a different way. Plus, he became more morally neutral there and was even a questgiver the player character could engage with and support.

Gabriel_H · October 19

Fear! It's a great motivator.

metheglyn · October 19

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I actually didn't get the idea that Molag Bal hated the worm cult so much as Mannimarco. Did I miss something?

For me the question is: If Molag Bal hates Mannimarco, why would he team up with the group that wants Mannimarco back?

The story in part one never gave me a satisfactory answer as to why this particular alliance was happening.

AcadianPaladin · October 19

I'm still miffed that Varen and company wouldn't let my elf choose to sacrifce Mannimarco since he was indeed one of the original 5 companions. He was right there and all nicely tied up on an altar. Had she done that, Mannimarco would not have returned to screw up Solstice. And Varen might still be alive.

Oh well, maybe this time, Mannimarco's machinations might lead to the end of the Three Banner War. But I doubt it.

I'm not overly serious here. Tongue in cheek whimsical musings, mostly.

spartaxoxo · October 19

metheglyn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I actually didn't get the idea that Molag Bal hated the worm cult so much as Mannimarco. Did I miss something?

For me the question is: If Molag Bal hates Mannimarco, why would he team up with the group that wants Mannimarco back?

The story in part one never gave me a satisfactory answer as to why this particular alliance was happening.

I don't think their alliance ever actually ended. I don't think Molag Bal cares so long as his they're willing to carry out his will and deliver him Nirn. He seemed content to focus his wrath on Mannimarco alone.

I don't know about Eastern Solstice because I don't play on PC so I can't play these things on PTS. But I will say that if they don't focus on how the Worm Cult alliance with Molag Bal finally ends, that would be a big miss. For me, it makes sense they'd be initially allies because the alliance never ended. And then they want Mannimarco back because things aren't going great for them without him. So they betray Bal to try and get him back. So far, so good. But like they got to deal with the ramifications of that in Eastern Solstice.

Gabriel_H · October 19

metheglyn wrote: »

For me the question is: If Molag Bal hates Mannimarco, why would he team up with the group that wants Mannimarco back?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Interests temporarily align.
Daedric Gods are insane.

Aliyavana · October 19

Anyone know what unique dialogue there is if you freed mannimarco instead of left him tied up in coldharbour?

Syldras · October 19

Aliyavana wrote: »

Anyone know what unique dialogue there is if you freed mannimarco instead of left him tied up in coldharbour?

I found none.

colossalvoids · October 19

Syldras wrote: »

I've been wondering the same, and unfortunately, the game never gives an explanation. It's just a plot hole (sadly not the only one this year) and doesn't get resolved in Part 2 of the story either (I've finished it on PTS).

In the Solstice story, the Worm Cult and Molag Bal are allied again for unknown reasons (or maybe the writers didn't take into consideration how the base game story ended - at least it feels this way). Worm Cultist npcs praise Molag Bal in ambient dialogue. And Molag Bal sent them a whole daedric clan for cooperation (we also see them together in dungeons, fighting side by side), so they aren't just summoned against their will:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Our_Darkbinder_Allies

At first I thought maybe there will be some turn of events in the Solstice story after the end of Part 1, and the cooperation could end again (I would have also found it an interesting story to see a conflict between the Worm Cult and Molag Bal breaking out, with the player character somehow getting into the middle of it and having to make difficult decisions), but no, it doesn't. The story just acts as the base game ending never happened.

It would be a bummer if I had much expectations at that point, but still kinda surprising it's not a rifle that would fire at the end somehow as it's an obvious ploy hole for anyone remembering the main quest. There's our choice at the end, there's a lost connection to Bal, it just doesn't fit together really and that's not sparking much confidence about such continuation for the older quest lines as we were heavily hinted at dark brotherhood being next or on the horizon at least. Maybe someone would ask for some clarifications on a next lore master archive post as to what exactly was missing in-game considering all of that but was their logic behind it, as there should be some we're not following no matter if flawed or just not obvious.

Syldras · October 19

colossalvoids wrote: »

It would be a bummer if I had much expectations at that point, but still kinda surprising it's not a rifle that would fire at the end somehow as it's an obvious ploy hole for anyone remembering the main quest. There's our choice at the end, there's a lost connection to Bal, it just doesn't fit together really and that's not sparking much confidence about such continuation for the older quest lines as we were heavily hinted at dark brotherhood being next or on the horizon at least. Maybe someone would ask for some clarifications on a next lore master archive post as to what exactly was missing in-game considering all of that but was their logic behind it, as there should be some we're not following no matter if flawed or just not obvious.

You know I'm not normally someone to make exaggerations, but I have never played a story in ESO that felt almost void of lore, like the current one. It feels to me like the only idea about the Worm Cult story was "Mannimarco and Molag Bal are evil, they want the Planemeld, the good hero stops them" and not much more. There's no character development and no new lore. Literally a story that makes no difference to the fictional world.

colossalvoids · October 19

Syldras wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

It would be a bummer if I had much expectations at that point, but still kinda surprising it's not a rifle that would fire at the end somehow as it's an obvious ploy hole for anyone remembering the main quest. There's our choice at the end, there's a lost connection to Bal, it just doesn't fit together really and that's not sparking much confidence about such continuation for the older quest lines as we were heavily hinted at dark brotherhood being next or on the horizon at least. Maybe someone would ask for some clarifications on a next lore master archive post as to what exactly was missing in-game considering all of that but was their logic behind it, as there should be some we're not following no matter if flawed or just not obvious.

You know I'm not normally someone to make exaggerations, but I have never played a story in ESO that felt almost void of lore, like the current one. It feels to me like the only idea about the Worm Cult story was "Mannimarco and Molag Bal are evil, they want the Planemeld, the good hero stops them" and not much more. There's no character development and no new lore. Literally a story that makes no difference to the fictional world.

Oh, that does sound bad, as I do know you care about lore part and definitely not someone who would blindly dismiss the efforts but would try to see what's left unsaid rather. An easy effort this time it seems if there's nothing to digest.

It felt like it's just a "oh look, remember the planemeld? A spooky coffin there is, watch out!" thing but as always hopes for something more prevailed even with low expectations, as there's a bare minimum that would always be there narratively, at least that's what I thought previously. Especially if they're touching Darien again and ending some characters, it can't be simply for the sake of it, like at the very least we could connect ESO to the main line games with the final battle, one with a... consequences for Vanus if you're getting what I'm talking about (probably do as most people though it's leading to that exact story, I'm pretty sure). Apparently it wasn't so obvious in the first place if that's not the case.

Syldras · October 19

colossalvoids wrote: »

Oh, that does sound bad, as I do know you care about lore part and definitely not someone who would blindly dismiss the efforts but would try to see what's left unsaid rather. An easy effort this time it seems if there's nothing to digest.
It felt like it's just a "oh look, remember the planemeld? A spooky coffin there is, watch out!" thing but as always hopes for something more prevailed even with low expectations, as there's a bare minimum that would always be there narratively, at least that's what I thought previously. Especially if they're touching Darien again and ending some characters, it can't be simply for the sake of it, like at the very least we could connect ESO to the main line games with the final battle, one with a... consequences for Vanus if you're getting what I'm talking about (probably do as most people though it's leading to that exact story, I'm pretty sure). Apparently it wasn't so obvious in the first place if that's not the case.

There is lore on Darien. And that lore is okay. But it's not much for a whole story, and there's not much beyond that (nothing meaningful on any other characters), which makes the thing especially uninteresting for people who don't care much for Darien.

I actually wondered sometimes whether dialogues were still unfinished or missing on PTS because it just felt so little to me.

Soarora · October 19

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I'm still miffed that Varen and company wouldn't let my elf choose to sacrifce Mannimarco since he was indeed one of the original 5 companions. He was right there and all nicely tied up on an altar. Had she done that, Mannimarco would not have returned to screw up Solstice. And Varen might still be alive.

Oh well, maybe this time, Mannimarco's machinations might lead to the end of the Three Banner War. But I doubt it.

I'm not overly serious here. Tongue in cheek whimsical musings, mostly.

I know you’re not overly serious but Mannimarco can’t [permanently] die or be eternally put away. He’s in multiple games that take place after the events of ESO.

Freelancer_ESO · October 19

In the quest God of Schemes

You have the opportunity to free various foes you faced that are being tormented by Molag Bal. The majority of them die the moment you free them. Mannimarco does not.

This may imply that Molag Bal had plans for him.

Daedric Princes also have a tendency to appear incredibly angry within the moment but, the anger doesn't always stick around as a major priority.

I am eternal, mortal. Do you think I see your impertinence as more than a flicker in the candle of time? My sickle was stolen. I want it returned. That is all."

metheglyn · October 19

spartaxoxo wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I actually didn't get the idea that Molag Bal hated the worm cult so much as Mannimarco. Did I miss something?

For me the question is: If Molag Bal hates Mannimarco, why would he team up with the group that wants Mannimarco back?

The story in part one never gave me a satisfactory answer as to why this particular alliance was happening.

I don't think their alliance ever actually ended. I don't think Molag Bal cares so long as his they're willing to carry out his will and deliver him Nirn. He seemed content to focus his wrath on Mannimarco alone.

I don't know about Eastern Solstice because I don't play on PC so I can't play these things on PTS. But I will say that if they don't focus on how the Worm Cult alliance with Molag Bal finally ends, that would be a big miss. For me, it makes sense they'd be initially allies because the alliance never ended. And then they want Mannimarco back because things aren't going great for them without him. So they betray Bal to try and get him back. So far, so good. But like they got to deal with the ramifications of that in Eastern Solstice.

I don't go on PTS, so I don't know how the story ends, either. But the story quest we got with the event, where we work with Darien, didn't give any information about that alliance, either. I mean, Mannimarco's now back. Molag Bal has nothing to say to that? Well, I guess I'll find out when I go through part two.

Syldras · October 19

Freelancer_ESO wrote: »

In the quest God of Schemes
You have the opportunity to free various foes you faced that are being tormented by Molag Bal. The majority of them die the moment you free them. Mannimarco does not.
This may imply that Molag Bal had plans for him.

Why all that hassle with the ritual at the end of Part 1, though? Yes, yes, I know: For the dramatic ending. With a sarcophagus that randomly teleports through time, space and dimensions and, among other things, shows up in West Solstice (according to lore text: coming from the East) only for the brave hero to find it, as bringing it from the safely Wall-protected East to a worse-guarded location in the West serves no other logical purpose. Stay tuned for more conveniently placed items in East Solstice, that serve no other purpose than that the player character can make use of them!

Freelancer_ESO wrote: »

Daedric Princes also have a tendency to appear incredibly angry within the moment but, the anger doesn't always stick around as a major priority.
I am eternal, mortal. Do you think I see your impertinence as more than a flicker in the candle of time? My sickle was stolen. I want it returned. That is all."

The thing is that one of Molag Bal's main shticks seems to be "punish/dominate the weak and failed", eternal torment, et cetera. With that background, how plausible is it that he'd let Mannimarco go?

If there had been a deal/contract/exchange between Wormblood and Molag Bal (Planemeld on some remote tropical island no one knows of <-> Mannimarco's soul), shouldn't that have been stated somewhere for the player to learn about it? Of course we could just assume all kinds of things just for them to make sense, but such aspect would be something I'd like to see in lorebooks - some letter or some diary entry.

I honestly do hope that on PTS there might still have been lots of dialogue bits or lorebooks missing. Who knows. There were lots of bugs this time, even worse than in other years.

MasterSpatula · October 19

Eternity gets boring, and it doesn't really cost them much.

Also, the deadra have a pretty varied set of takes on how they feel about getting killed/banished. Several of the ones we talk to in ESO or read about in the lore find the experience pretty unpleasant, especially considering how long one remains in the void doesn't always seem controllable/predictable.

But the dremora who served Dagon during the Oblivion crisis took a considerable amount of amusement in how much it distressed the mortals in Camoran's Paradise to be violently killed, reform, and be violently killed again, especially as this experience was pretty routine for warring dremora clans.

I've often wondered why Arox the Mutilator doesn't let himself be killed and see if he reforms as a Titan instead of a deadrat. Perhaps he already has.

Freelancer_ESO · October 20

Syldras wrote: »

Freelancer_ESO wrote: »

In the quest God of Schemes
You have the opportunity to free various foes you faced that are being tormented by Molag Bal. The majority of them die the moment you free them. Mannimarco does not.
This may imply that Molag Bal had plans for him.

Why all that hassle with the ritual at the end of Part 1, though? Yes, yes, I know: For the dramatic ending. With a sarcophagus that randomly teleports through time, space and dimensions and, among other things, shows up in West Solstice (according to lore text: coming from the East) only for the brave hero to find it, as bringing it from the safely Wall-protected East to a worse-guarded location in the West serves no other logical purpose. Stay tuned for more conveniently placed items in East Solstice, that serve no other purpose than that the player character can make use of them!

Freelancer_ESO wrote: »

Daedric Princes also have a tendency to appear incredibly angry within the moment but, the anger doesn't always stick around as a major priority.
I am eternal, mortal. Do you think I see your impertinence as more than a flicker in the candle of time? My sickle was stolen. I want it returned. That is all."

The thing is that one of Molag Bal's main shticks seems to be "punish/dominate the weak and failed", eternal torment, et cetera. With that background, how plausible is it that he'd let Mannimarco go?

If there had been a deal/contract/exchange between Wormblood and Molag Bal (Planemeld on some remote tropical island no one knows of <-> Mannimarco's soul), shouldn't that have been stated somewhere for the player to learn about it? Of course we could just assume all kinds of things just for them to make sense, but such aspect would be something I'd like to see in lorebooks - some letter or some diary entry.

I honestly do hope that on PTS there might still have been lots of dialogue bits or lorebooks missing. Who knows. There were lots of bugs this time, even worse than in other years.

What Molag Bal says he likes and what he actually likes may not be the same thing.

He talks about submitting a ton but, doesn't seem to actually like anyone that actually does it.

His behavior to the Vestige might suggest that he may actually like resistance not submission.

Syldras · October 20

Freelancer_ESO wrote: »

What Molag Bal says he likes and what he actually likes may not be the same thing.
He talks about submitting a ton but, doesn't seem to actually like anyone that actually does it.
His behavior to the Vestige might suggest that he may actually like resistance not submission.

With that reasoning, Molag Bal giving Mannimarco another chance seems even less plausible. As he was quite subservient when he ended up bound to that altar ("Please! No more! It was a misunderstanding, great one! Let me serve you. Let me prove my loyalty. No more, I beg of you!").

SwordOfSagas · October 20

Maybe molag bal just see's the worm cult as a means to an end. I mean why not act like your still in league with them and give them some immortal daedra as back up until your ultimate plan falls into place. They seem to be willing subjects maybe he offered them something for their service, but we all know a bargain with a daedric prince always comes at a cost. He could of offered eternal life but then goes ahead and turns them into vampires lol. All just speculations on my part but I do get it though.

cyclonus11 · October 20

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Daedra don’t really have a choice if they’re summoned by a mortal. If they’re not being summoned then they may see personal gain from their service. Daedra aren’t sworn to the god they come from or even the realm they live in, they’re sworn to themselves and/or to their clan.

Once I read the dairy of deadra ESO lore book. It's a story of deadra who were summoned by mortal.
According to lore book, most of deadra couldn't get any of decent reward as mortal's servant, but
just become mortal's poor slave. And killed by mortals so many times.

Just I thought, why deadra don't try to invent cancel spell against summoning so far.
"I --- DON'T --- WANT TO DO --- SUCH --- A --- TERRIBLE--- JOB --- good bye mortals."

One of my favorite things to see in the Deadlands:

Dremora tries his hand at summoning a mortal! He summons an Indrik, who promptly kills him.