No more DLC dungeons

AzuraFan

tomofhyrule wrote: »

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And yet, both of those examples you give have an end: you finish your library or you finish the house… and then what?

Even PvE content currently has an end, because once you have all of the trifectas, you… just go do it on a different character/role? Help others? That’s about it, so if your entire goal is to be a one-character wonder who never plays with others, even that’s not possible. The only way to satisfy those solo players in general is for ZOS to keep churning out content faster and faster, so there is more content than can reasonably be completed before the next drop. And that’s unsustainable (not to mention would also means stopping any content that isn’t overland quests).

Agree that yes, it would eventually end. But it could take a long time, depending on what they introduced.

As far as churning out content faster and faster, why would they need to do that? Let's say they add a collectible item system of 10000 items and most players will maybe collect 10 a day. That's 1000 days to complete the collection. That's 3 years of engagement, longer for those who collect less/day. For example, there are 6000+ lorebooks. I grab lorebooks whenever I see them and sometimes specifically spend a gaming session collecting them (after having an internal debate with myself about why I should bother because I'll never complete the collection - there are occasions when the "why bother?" side wins and rather than logging into ESO, I play something else). And I still have 1000 to go after playing the game for 6+ years. Unfortunately, quite a few of those 1000 are on a list of books in trials and dungeons. But when I do decide, okay, I'll do it, I generally try to collect 10, and it can take over an hour depending on where they're located.

That aside, what's frustrating for me as a (mainly) solo player is that there are systems I would participate in if I could finish them. Like I said, I do occasionally collect lorebooks, but it's always an internal debate with myself as to why I should spend the time when I can't complete the collection.

I also worry that if ZOS carers too heavily to the people who favor ESO as an exclusively solo game, that they’ll 1) drive off the more MMO people (which we already are starting to see with Subclassing, since the loudest voices supporting it are the soloists, whereas the people who deride it are concerned about balance in PvE/PvP), and 2) lose all of the soloists when TES6 releases.

I don't expect an MMO to focus on soloists. But it would be nice if there was one meaty system, just one, that soloists could engage with and complete with no need to enter a dungeon, trial, or to group. Right now there isn't.

So if TES6 is going to give the soloists everything they want, why would they return to an utterly inferior experience like ESO? The release of TES6 will be a death knell for this game, and the only way it will survive that is to offer something that TES6 doesn’t: PvP and PvE group content.

I play ESO and SP games. It isn't either/or. When Oblivion remastered was released, I bought it instantly. But I'm still playing ESO. And as a (mainly) solo player, if ZOS is interested in keeping me around when TES6 releases, they need to give me something to do that isn't grindy and same old, same old (grindy meaning doing the same instance over and over again - collecting lorebooks isn't grindy because it takes you all over the world to different locations).

But that's me. There will be players who wave bye to ESO the moment TES6 drops. Unless... see the end of my post.

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there aren't very many soloists left in ESO (I couldn't blame those who have left) and that's why ZOS seems to be more focused on grouping lately (for example, the one new dungeon requiring two players to lower the bridge). If that's the direction, I'm fine with it. I'll move on. I'll be looking for an indication of direction, in terms of solo/grouped systems, from the next reveal. I don't need them to announce a new system for us, but I do expect to see some indication that they know we exist and are working on something. If there are quite a few solo players here, then I would expect ZOS to be thinking about how to retain them. So far, there hasn't been anything that suggests to me that they're doing that.

Wouldn’t it be ironic if the suits know that, and the fact that ESO plays so heavily towards soloists is part of the reason that they’re dragging their feet on TES6…

I've had the same thought!

But do you think ZOS should just throw up its hands and say, "Well, TES6 will be coming out, so let's stop caring about soloists?" I would think that if they want this game to continue for years, they'll be asking, "What can we do to retain as many soloists as we can when TES6 releases?"

The answer isn't to keep introducing systems that require grouping to participate in and/or complete. The answer is to introduce systems that appeal to those who love the grouping aspect of MMOs, and to introduce at least a system or two that soloists can engage in and complete. Otherwise it will be bye-bye for most soloists when TES6 drops, IMO. And while some will say good riddance, maybe they won't be so happy to see us go when the game dies an earlier death because of it.

Soarora

z32 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Of course, a pug group likely won't appreciate a blind run

Exactly my and OP point.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Just wanted to add to that:
Vaults of Madness - Base Game - Mini-Boss (Wraith)
Spindlecluth II - Base Game - 2nd Boss
Crypt of Hearts II - Base Game - Mini-Boss (Mezeluth)
Elden Hollow I - Base Game - 2nd Boss
Tempest Island - Base Game - 2nd & 3rd Boss

... and many more that will wipe a PuG that doesn't know what it is doing.

Scalecaller Peak is DLC, they just added it to base game because nobody wants to run it for the discussed reasons. As for the rest, we are not talking about a player being killed during dungeon run, I seen players being killed in vet FG1, this is not the issue. We are talking about failure to complete dungeon, when 1 player being killed leads to whole PUG group wipe or mechanics that wipes entire group with no chance to recover, so group abandons dungeon after few tries and players never complete it even once.

Æthërnüm wrote: »

The only thing they should stop: making dungeons TOO easy and placing rewards for just vet. We need more decent rewards for challenging actions in such dungeons (not a title or memento). That's it. And yes, i did HMs in a first run for first hour in the last ones and this is too simple (i remember how i've been tryharding March of Sacrifices on HM for hours).

This is the reason 99% players fails to complete DLC dungeons. We may be tired after work, we do not have hours to spend in the game trying this and that etc. Yet all of you saying this is how it is supposed to be: 99% of us (according to the stats) will pay money for content development so only you (1%) will enjoy the game and we won’t? Do you think people will agree or start leaving the game? Are you willing to pay literally 100 times more for the game to cover the cost of game development, maintenance and support if 99% players quit? ZOS is not a charity, it can not do it without profit.

1 - well, make friends then. There’s nothing stopping most people from making an organized group.

2 - SCP is still DLC, not base game. The answer to the entire group failing is to try again with a different group and get carried or git gud and carry others. Why would I never try the dungeon ever again just because one group failed? I got kicked from dungeons, I failed dungeons, but I kept going and now I can help push people through even when they’re struggling.

3 - You all really need to stop with the “99% of players are absolutely terrible” and “only 1% of players have groups and can do dlcs on normal/veteran dungeons/hardmodes/trifectas” (notice the goal post moving depending on the discussion). It’s pulled out of thin air and we all know that. It also ignores the fact that these “99% of players” aren’t doomed to never grow as a player. The only one who can truly see player data is ZOS as I presume they can factor out people who rarely play whilst the statistics we can see include people who’ve played 5 hours and quit. The “1%” argument only exists to try and make us feel like our opinions aren’t important.

tomofhyrule

AzuraFan wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[
And yet, both of those examples you give have an end: you finish your library or you finish the house… and then what?

Even PvE content currently has an end, because once you have all of the trifectas, you… just go do it on a different character/role? Help others? That’s about it, so if your entire goal is to be a one-character wonder who never plays with others, even that’s not possible. The only way to satisfy those solo players in general is for ZOS to keep churning out content faster and faster, so there is more content than can reasonably be completed before the next drop. And that’s unsustainable (not to mention would also means stopping any content that isn’t overland quests).

Agree that yes, it would eventually end. But it could take a long time, depending on what they introduced.

As far as churning out content faster and faster, why would they need to do that? Let's say they add a collectible item system of 10000 items and most players will maybe collect 10 a day. That's 1000 days to complete the collection. That's 3 years of engagement, longer for those who collect less/day. For example, there are 6000+ lorebooks. I grab lorebooks whenever I see them and sometimes specifically spend a gaming session collecting them (after having an internal debate with myself about why I should bother because I'll never complete the collection - there are occasions when the "why bother?" side wins and rather than logging into ESO, I play something else). And I still have 1000 to go after playing the game for 6+ years. Unfortunately, quite a few of those 1000 are on a list of books in trials and dungeons. But when I do decide, okay, I'll do it, I generally try to collect 10, and it can take over an hour depending on where they're located.

Ah, but here is the problem between expectations and reality.

Remember, ZOS is releasing content they expect people to spend a while on. Look at Scribing from last year - collect all of the Scripts on all of your characters from various dailies, and then collect a bunch of ink. Look at Subclassing - get all of the skills up from all classes on your characters. They even say in the preview articles for both that these should be long-term projects. They expect you to still be doing that until the next big thing comes out in U50 next June.

And what does the ESO playerbase do? Grindgrindgrindgrind. Post a forum thread: “This came out a week ago and I’m not done, why is ESO so grindy??? I need it NAO!!!1!!1!”

ZOS’s “Here’s a year-long project for you” is the playerbase’s “release-day grindfest”

That aside, what's frustrating for me as a (mainly) solo player is that there are systems I would participate in if I could finish them. Like I said, I do occasionally collect lorebooks, but it's always an internal debate with myself as to why I should spend the time when I can't complete the collection.

Technically, this isn’t a bug, it’s a feature.

The goal is to encourage people to interact with other parts of the game. You say it yourself - you are closing away part of the game for yourself because you don’t want to interact with it. That’s why leads and the like are found in all content, or events target different things, or endeavors and Golden Pursuits are very varied - because they want players to expand beyond one single playstyle (and thereby have more hooks to keep them in ESO in the future)

So if TES6 is going to give the soloists everything they want, why would they return to an utterly inferior experience like ESO? The release of TES6 will be a death knell for this game, and the only way it will survive that is to offer something that TES6 doesn’t: PvP and PvE group content.

I play ESO and SP games. It isn't either/or. When Oblivion remastered was released, I bought it instantly. But I'm still playing ESO. And as a (mainly) solo player, if ZOS is interested in keeping me around when TES6 releases, they need to give me something to do that isn't grindy and same old, same old (grindy meaning doing the same instance over and over again - collecting lorebooks isn't grindy because it takes you all over the world to different locations).

Let’s not beat around the bush: an MMO catering to soloists, PvE groups, and PvP players will never fully satisfy soloists the same way as a game which focuses exclusively on solo content.

Sure a lot of us went to Oblivion remastered, and I’m sure the population took a decent hit on release… but 1) most of us have played it before so it was not necessarily new stuff, and 2) games from that era didn’t really have an endgame - you complete the main quest and then there wasn’t really anything to do. So people came back.

Are we expecting that TES6 will hit like Starfield did? Or Skyrim?

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there aren't very many soloists left in ESO (I couldn't blame those who have left) and that's why ZOS seems to be more focused on grouping lately (for example, the one new dungeon requiring two players to lower the bridge). If that's the direction, I'm fine with it. I'll move on. I'll be looking for an indication of direction, in terms of solo/grouped systems, from the next reveal. I don't need them to announce a new system for us, but I do expect to see some indication that they know we exist and are working on something. If there are quite a few solo players here, then I would expect ZOS to be thinking about how to retain them. So far, there hasn't been anything that suggests to me that they're doing that.

ESO makes more solo content than anything else, full stop.

Overland? Solo. Delves? Solo. Questing? Solo. Even the Public Dungeons and WBs can be soloed. And yes, players who adamantly refuse to group can even solo most dungeons - only a few have pads or levers to cross (and many can be skipped if you know the trick, like how it is possible in Naj to streak across the gap from the side plate and make it into the dungeon solo).

I am not a huge fan of blocking access via plates or whatever, but to claim that they don’t make anything for solo players is patently false. Grouping actually breaks a fair number of quests in the game.

But that’s why I say it’s a never-ending cycle: if we take away farming and minigames and daily quests and everything else for being “repetitive,” then yes, only new quests and new zones will satisfy soloists… which is still coming out at the same rate as dungeons and faster than anything for PvP.

There are systems that they could add that will be for all - I’m begging for a new Class next year, because that will give everyone something new: finding out new skills, facing new opponents in PvP, trying new tricks in group stuff, doing quests through a new set of eyes…

I will say that I don’t mind doing many things in ESO. I dislike PvP, but I’ll do it if I have a reason. The stories have honestly been getting stale to me as well, especially since I can get my “incredible solo RPG story” experience from BG3 and Skyrim is still a thing as well. What keeps me around is dungeons with friends and dreaming up stories for my characters (which is why a new Class would be great for me since that would require me to dream up someone new with a full 8 pages of backstory). But anyone who is willingly cutting themselves off from parts of the game needs to recognize that not everything ESO does will land with them.

AzuraFan

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Ah, but here is the problem between expectations and reality.

Remember, ZOS is releasing content they expect people to spend a while on. Look at Scribing from last year - collect all of the Scripts on all of your characters from various dailies, and then collect a bunch of ink. Look at Subclassing - get all of the skills up from all classes on your characters. They even say in the preview articles for both that these should be long-term projects. They expect you to still be doing that until the next big thing comes out in U50 next June.

And what does the ESO playerbase do? Grindgrindgrindgrind. Post a forum thread: “This came out a week ago and I’m not done, why is ESO so grindy??? I need it NAO!!!1!!1!”

ZOS’s “Here’s a year-long project for you” is the playerbase’s “release-day grindfest”

They have to try new things. That shouldn't discourage them from putting in a system that can be completed solo. Or should they remove all group systems and stop introducing new systems because some players complain about them?

The goal is to encourage people to interact with other parts of the game. You say it yourself - you are closing away part of the game for yourself because you don’t want to interact with it. That’s why leads and the like are found in all content, or events target different things, or endeavors and Golden Pursuits are very varied - because they want players to expand beyond one single playstyle (and thereby have more hooks to keep them in ESO in the future)

Trying to get players to engage with content they're not interested has limited success. It works for some players, but with many players, it doesn't. A lot of the time people who do give it a go just confirm that yep, they hate it. Having said that, I've always understood that's why they spread stuff around - to try to get people to do content they think they'll hate. Doesn't negate the fact that there isn't an overarching end game system that solo players can complete.

Overland? Solo. Delves? Solo. Questing? Solo. Even the Public Dungeons and WBs can be soloed. And yes, players who adamantly refuse to group can even solo most dungeons - only a few have pads or levers to cross (and many can be skipped if you know the trick, like how it is possible in Naj to streak across the gap from the side plate and make it into the dungeon solo).

Delves, WBs, etc. aren't systems that have you working towards completion. I mean, sure, I can complete all the delves or all the WBs (I have!). But they aren't a system like lorebooks, or antiquities, IMO. They're not going to keep you busy for months. You can complete all the WBs in a day. It's been done. And to complete all the delves - a few days, maybe, if that's all you do.

I am not a huge fan of blocking access via plates or whatever, but to claim that they don’t make anything for solo players is patently false. Grouping actually breaks a fair number of quests in the game.

I've never made that ludicrous claim. I've said there isn't an endgame system that soloists can complete, not that ZOS doesn't make anything for solo players lol.

But anyone who is willingly cutting themselves off from parts of the game needs to recognize that not everything ESO does will land with them.

Of course. That goes without saying. I'm just saying that there isn't much for a soloist to do after completing the story content and the zone maps because we can't complete the overarching hamster wheels. It would be nice to have something, is all, and I believe that it would go a long way to retaining some solo players when there's no story content left to do. I know some soloists get into things like arenas and the IA, but they're really combat-focused. It would be nice to have a system that's more exploration. That's why it's so disappointing to this (mainly) solo players that lorebooks and the antiquities codex require doing group content.

Anyway, just expressing my view that I hope the new leadership considers soloists in their plans. If not, no hard feelings. There are plenty of other games to play and spend money on.