Upcoming U47 PTS changes, based on feedback

ZOS_Amy · July 15

Hello All,

We've seen a lot of your feedback about some of the class and ability changes that are currently on the PTS for Update 47. We hear your frustration and confusion about why some of these changes are being made, and we wanted to give you some additional context.

We also understand that having to continually update builds with every patch can be tiresome and can detract from the fun and enjoyment of playing the way you want, something that is a part of ESO's DNA. In considering the community’s feedback, we will be making the following changes starting in an upcoming week of the U47 PTS, sometime after PTS week 2.

Since the release of U46, our aim has been to prevent excessive ultimate generation by limiting the newer sources that Subclassing introduced, but with a more targeted approach that doesn't hurt those who aren't Subclassing. An upcoming PTS update will address the feedback we've seen with the following adjustment:
- All class passives that were adjusted to a Major or Minor Heroism effect are now once again unique ultimate sources. However, the passive abilities that generated Minor Heroism during week 1 will now share a cooldown — so they cannot be stacked.
  - We originally discussed this before the week 1 changes but feared the gameplay experience with these effects would result in confusing and jarring gameplay experiences (since passive cooldowns cannot be messaged clearly), but we've seen a lot of discussion that suggests we likely over-worried about that.
We'll also be introducing a failsafe for the Arcanist's Class Mastery script with Banner Bearer — so it's not a complete loss of power. It will generate Ultimate if the effect did not generate a Crux.
Finally, we'll be looking at our Sorcerer adjustments and reiterating and reverting some of the adjustments based on your feedback:
- Lightning Form will again grant Major Resolve instead of Minor Force to retain its unique damage/defensive hybrid effect.
- Bound Armor will again grant Minor Protection at base rather than Major Resolve. Additionally, the active effect of the abilities will now scale in duration with your Armor, rather than a flat amount.
  - The max Magicka and Stamina increase from the ability and its morphs have been moved to Dark Magic, which will exist on the Blood Magic passive.
  - Bound Armaments will have a higher chance of applying Sundered, so it reaches a closer power level to the Grim Focus morphs.

As we mentioned before the release of U46 and Subclassing, we will continue to work on tuning these abilities to achieve greater class balance. It's worth noting that the changes above are also subject to change, and we'll continue listening to your feedback before these go live. In the months ahead, we are going to continue to look at balancing and will make additional adjustments. For now, we hope these amended abilities are more in line with your expectations, and you continue to enjoy Subclassing.

Thank you, again, for all the thoughtful and constructive discourse around the U47 PTS changes. Your input is valuable and these adjustments are a direct result. Please continue to let us know how your experience is on the PTS — we're listening.

Zyaneth_Bal · July 15

Thank you for listening to our feedback, and I’m confident I speak for the community when I say that we hope that you continue in the future.

Nice changes overall.
It is right to redistribute power across other lines of the same class when one overperforms, so pure classes do not lose power but only the line itself does. However, most pure classes are still weak and could use their underperforming lines to receive straight up buffs to both help pure classes and make those lines viable options to subclass.

It is odd that max resource bonus from bound armour has been moved to dark magic when ward is in daedric summoning line. Having 2 max resource passives in 2 different lines of the same class doesn’t make sense too, especially with subclassing in mind. It would make a lot more sense to add that bonus to expert summoner, especially considering that expert summoner is currently extremely weak even for max stat builds. Max resources would only benefit damage dealers and as a damage skill line daedric summoning isn’t strong at all, so in my opinion it should not lose that bonus.

Bound armaments still needs a boost, it gains increased status chance but still lost max stats and was weak to begin with.

I made a post describing the current state of all sorcerer skills and offering some possible easy solutions. I would appreciate it if it was at least considered:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/680585/sorcerer-review-and-update-47#latest

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Amy

tomofhyrule · July 15

Thank you for letting us know about the upcoming changes, and especially for communicating them with us. We really appreciate getting insights into the process and it makes us feel good to know our concerns are heard.

This does feel like a good direction to allow those of us who choose not to Subclass to retain some power, but also prevent players from stacking buffs. I hope that future updates will also use similar logic in the other passives to really help balance builds so we do not feel forced into running specific skill lines.

React · July 15

First, thank you for making this post.

The change to banner does not at all fix the conflict between the functionality of this skill and tome bearer. Don't think this particular change is going to alleviate any of the concerns expressed by tbe PVE community whatsoever.

Thank you for reverting the hurricane change.

Really hope you make an effort to start buffing the weak skill lines sooner rather than later. You guys have the chance to make subclassing very diverse and fun for a wide variety of players if you do this, nerfing the strong things that people are using (outside of obvious outliers) will just kill interest in the game.

MincMincMinc · July 15

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

Hello All,

We've seen a lot of your feedback .......

Thanks for not gutting the one stamsorc skill line that has existed for a decade now.

What everyone wants to know going forward is how does zos plan on balancing or accounting for subclassing.

Either change skill lines to fall under Tank, heal, or damage
Or make each individual class balanced to house all three, essentially allowing users to plug and play anything together.

These have drastic implications to the future of the game. Mixed standard design concepts over the years really have set subclassing up for a balance nightmare.

If we have dedicated "damage" lines people are going to just slot 3x damage lines and find the bare essentials through sets or other cheaper methods. Will zos implement a restriction on subclassing to force you to choose one "damage", "heal", and "tank" skill line? If so, in cases like sorcerer where skill lines are intertwined and for the most part balaned, if stormcalling is to be the damage skill line, will daedric summoning lose its damage like curse?
If skill lines are going to be balanced on their own to portray more of a plug and play playstyle balanced with the other 21 skill lines to have the holy trinity. How do you plan on gutting something like warden which has clearly defined damage, tank, and heal skill lines? Respreading damage passives? Making greenbalance have more dots or effects?

In most cases if we want all skillines to be balanced, the team has to start with the passives being balanced. A healthier "play how you want" system would be to make all of the 21 class skill lines equivalent damage, tank, and heal wise. Changing passives around won't receive as much flak as completely gutting people's active skills they have relied on for a decade now.

Morvan · July 15

Really glad to see you guys communicating more, I wish we'd get more of that, people wouldn't dread future patches as much if they knew their feedback is being heard, so this helps a lot, thank you ZOS!

code65536 · July 15

I'm a bit disappointed to see no mention of Grim Focus here.

The change is a pretty significant nerf for pure NB, because of how the class line is being used in subclassing.

I do agree that the ability should be active and not just a passive, and ironically, U46's change to allow it to stack to 10 was a major part of shifting this skill into a passive.

If reverting the 10-stack is not something you want to do, then perhaps another option is to grant X weapon/spell damage for Y number of seconds whenever the bow is fired.

Turtle_Bot · July 15

Thank you for listening to our feedback, and an additional thank you for letting us know about upcoming changes.

As has been noted, it would be nice to see the weaker skill lines and skills looked into for direct and tangible buffs (and/or reworks/updates) to make them more appealing for sub-classing. I understand these additional buffs/updates/reworks might not be possible for this particular PTS cycle (as it is already getting late into the PTS cycle to make very large sweeping changes that would be required for some of the lacking skill lines), but a future post (or pinned dev note in the upcoming PTS patch notes) similar to this one that notes which skill lines the team is looking into (and perhaps also asking for additional feedback for certain lines/skills players feel are lacking) for perhaps U48 or U49 depending how much work is needed to update those skill lines.

Radiate77 · July 15

Well, this is just confusing.

While the communication is great, stepping backwards is a horrible sign. When you make a change, and then revert it, it tells me you either have no vision or there’s not enough confidence in that vision… and that’s a horrible sign for the future.

L_Nici · July 15

Thats great news. Hurricane loosing Resolve was terrible for Stamsorcs. Also I am pretty happy to see the max stats moved to Blood Magic, that kinda fits.

BananaBender · July 15

Radiate77 wrote: »

Well, this is just confusing.

While the communication is great, stepping backwards is a horrible sign. When you make a change, and then revert it, it tells me you either have no vision or there’s not enough confidence in that vision… and that’s a horrible sign for the future.

I couldn't disagree more. Actually listening feedback and walking back negative changes is a great thing. That's what the PTS is for, testing and feedback. Mistakes happen to everyone and sometimes you can overlook things when trying to fix something.

MincMincMinc · July 15

L_Nici wrote: »

Thats great news. Hurricane loosing Resolve was terrible for Stamsorcs. Also I am pretty happy to see the max stats moved to Blood Magic, that kinda fits.

Honestly rebalancing out the passives would be a better start, considering they should wait until vengeance active skill recoding happens.

I mean why are people slotting storm+aedric+animal+assassin in pvp.......they all host the most potent damage passives. Why are people not slotting dark magic.....the passives are useless now adays.

For example stamsorc only had stormcalling for damage passives and then had two sustain passive skill lines.....Sustain is so free now adays that I didnt blink twice about dropping daedric summoning and dark magic. Zos needs to reign in sustain to make passives like these worth it. Major/minor sustain buffs are near double what they should be. Weapon damage enchants giving bonus regen was a mistake. Food and drink being unbalanced just power crept everyone to have all perfect sustain.......the list goes on

Zyaneth_Bal · July 15

Radiate77 wrote: »

Well, this is just confusing.

While the communication is great, stepping backwards is a horrible sign. When you make a change, and then revert it, it tells me you either have no vision or there’s not enough confidence in that vision… and that’s a horrible sign for the future.

Now let's not discourage them when they take the right step.

Radiate77 · July 15

BananaBender wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Well, this is just confusing.

While the communication is great, stepping backwards is a horrible sign. When you make a change, and then revert it, it tells me you either have no vision or there’s not enough confidence in that vision… and that’s a horrible sign for the future.

I couldn't disagree more. Actually listening feedback and walking back negative changes is a great thing. That's what the PTS is for, testing and feedback. Mistakes happen to everyone and sometimes you can overlook things when trying to fix something.

My feedback was that each subclass should feel more unique and that I appreciated the change they just reverted, so no.

They didn’t listen to my feedback and they walked back a change that I felt was strongly heading towards that future.

Why even touch the skill if it wasn’t part of some bigger plan?

VixxVexx · July 15

Okay good, changes reverted.
Can we now get some actual combat updates? Because the patch got even smaller.

madmufffin · July 15

The communication and attempt is much appreciated, but it still feels like the issues with Sorc aren't being understood. The value of the resources ties to the shields and Bound Armaments needs the benefit of the extra stam to be even worth the slot unless the changes are to give it like 100% sunder chance. Moving it to an unusable PVE line or already solid PVP line just doens't do anything to move sorcs terribly underwhelming needle.

Freelancer_ESO · July 15

Radiate77 wrote: »

Well, this is just confusing.

While the communication is great, stepping backwards is a horrible sign. When you make a change, and then revert it, it tells me you either have no vision or there’s not enough confidence in that vision… and that’s a horrible sign for the future.

Long ago I used to do some modding for a server.

I messed up in one of the updates I made and accidentally made the new freighter have the maneuverability of a fighter.

It was a minor error that was easy to fix but, the fix never was put in an update.

You see, it turns out the only person that used the server that had a serious issue with the mistake was me.

Pretty much everyone else either didn't care or actually enjoyed having a freighter that maneuvered far faster than it should.

I put tons of effort into trying to make my designs be balanced/"realistic" when it turned out people didn't care that much about balance/"realism" in some areas.

Sometimes, how people react to things doesn't align with what you expect and your plans need to adjust because of it as at the end of the day the overarching goal is to make people happy.

RaptorRodeoGod · July 15

This kind of communication is what we want; the back and forth conversation about combat.

It would be great if this kind of dialogue with the players happened multiple times throughout a PTS or Patch cycle.

Thank you for the updates & clarifications

Turtle_Bot · July 15

Radiate77 wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Well, this is just confusing.

While the communication is great, stepping backwards is a horrible sign. When you make a change, and then revert it, it tells me you either have no vision or there’s not enough confidence in that vision… and that’s a horrible sign for the future.

I couldn't disagree more. Actually listening feedback and walking back negative changes is a great thing. That's what the PTS is for, testing and feedback. Mistakes happen to everyone and sometimes you can overlook things when trying to fix something.

My feedback was that each subclass should feel more unique and that I appreciated the change they just reverted, so no.

They didn’t listen to my feedback and they walked back a change that I felt was strongly heading towards that future.

Why even touch the skill if it wasn’t part of some bigger plan?

The issue wasn't them touching the skills, it was that they didn't implement enough of said "bigger plan" alongside those changes to have those changes make sense. They also didn't communicate with us what said bigger plan was, so those changes simply read as just a straight up nerf to specific abilities/skill lines/playstyles.

Rolling those changes back (even if only for a patch or 2) so they can work on creating and implementing more changes to be added alongside those changes for a more complete picture of their "bigger plan" is the best way to move forward. It prevents a repeat of U35 where players got a massive nerf only to be forced to wait multiple patches (in some cases over a year), completely in the dark regarding the bigger plan, to receive any buffs/changes that allowed those U35 changes to somewhat make sense.

CAB_Life · July 15

I just don’t understand what is happening or what the goal is with sub-classing. Are you aiming for balance? Because if so, why has Arcanist beam been left alone for past U46 PTS cycles and now update 47? Is it intended for people to stack three “DPS” focused skill lines? Is there a broader balancing pass being prepared once more data has been collected? What is the actual roadmap for changes moving forward and when can we expect such an unstable gaming environment to somewhat stabilize? Knee-jerk reactions to community outrage, which exist simply because no one on the consumer end and possibly even on the development end seems to know what’s going on, will not fix the many issues introduced in U46. It will ameliorate the loudest voices and allow the dysfunction to continue.

Radiate77 · July 15

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Well, this is just confusing.

While the communication is great, stepping backwards is a horrible sign. When you make a change, and then revert it, it tells me you either have no vision or there’s not enough confidence in that vision… and that’s a horrible sign for the future.

I couldn't disagree more. Actually listening feedback and walking back negative changes is a great thing. That's what the PTS is for, testing and feedback. Mistakes happen to everyone and sometimes you can overlook things when trying to fix something.

My feedback was that each subclass should feel more unique and that I appreciated the change they just reverted, so no.

They didn’t listen to my feedback and they walked back a change that I felt was strongly heading towards that future.

Why even touch the skill if it wasn’t part of some bigger plan?

The issue wasn't them touching the skills, it was that they didn't implement enough of said "bigger plan" alongside those changes to have those changes make sense. They also didn't communicate with us what said bigger plan was, so those changes simply read as just a straight up nerf to specific abilities/skill lines/playstyles.

Rolling those changes back (even if only for a patch or 2) so they can work on creating and implementing more changes to be added alongside those changes for a more complete picture of their "bigger plan" is the best way to move forward. It prevents a repeat of U35 where players got a massive nerf only to be forced to wait multiple patches (in some cases over a year), completely in the dark regarding the bigger plan, to receive any buffs/changes that allowed those U35 changes to somewhat make sense.

We need a clear mission statement from ZOS following Subclassing.

Despite wanting to believe they rolled back these changes to implement them better later down the road, they haven’t communicated that.

thepandalore · July 15

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

All class passives that were adjusted to a Major or Minor Heroism effect are now once again unique ultimate sources. However, the passive abilities that generated Minor Heroism during week 1 will now share a cooldown — so they cannot be stacked.

Does this mean the unique ulti-gen passives that generated Minor Heroism during week 1 will share a cooldown with Minor Heroism moving forward?

madmufffin · July 15

thepandalore wrote: »

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

All class passives that were adjusted to a Major or Minor Heroism effect are now once again unique ultimate sources. However, the passive abilities that generated Minor Heroism during week 1 will now share a cooldown — so they cannot be stacked.

Does this mean the unique ulti-gen passives that generated Minor Heroism during week 1 will share a cooldown with Minor Heroism moving forward?

The unique passives have been reverted to their original state and now share a universal cooldown between eachother. Prism, transfer, savage beast, etc.

ZhuJiuyin · July 15

As others have suggested, there is no need to have the maximum attribute exist in different skill lines of the same class at the same time. It is meaningless to split the same effect in half.
Suggestion: Change the Magicka and Stamina of Expert Summoner to 6/12%, which will be 1% less than the original 5+8, as a means of balancing Ward.
As for Dark Magic, although some people think it should be a healing line, its skills are not so suitable for healing (compared to skill lines such as Restoring Light), and abandoning Dark Magic as a dps line will also lose the fun of players playing as dark magicians.
I suggest making it similar to NB's Shadow line, a skill line that mixes damage, healing and utility. Shadow line has higher damage skills such as Twisting Path and Summon Shade, as well as self-buffs such as Blur and Shadowy Disguise, and healing abilities such as Refreshing Path and Dark Cloak. However, Dark Magic can be made more focused on giving debuffs to enemies rather than buffing teammates, to distinguish it from Shadow.

Suppression Field:
Increases the damage of this skill and removes silenced, instead giving Major Brittle to targets in range, making it a more reasonable damage skill and competing with Atronach.
Absorption Field:
Provides low damage and healing at the same time, and gives silenced, making it a composite utility skill.

Crystal Shard:
Slightly increases the damage of both morphs, making it closer to burst damage like Relentless Focus

Shattering Spines:
Removes immobilize and gives a dot that lasts 10/15 seconds to the target hit. Or increase the target's direct damage from the player himself by 5%. (Avoid letting an organized team buff the entire group with just one support in the trial. At the same time, because not all other skills and passive abilities of Black Magic are suitable for output, there should be no need to worry that increasing direct damage by 5% will cause too strong a reaction between Black Magic and Arc Beam. If necessary, it is reasonable to adjust it to 3%.)

Rune Prison:
Both morphs need to be reworked. Maybe one of them can make the target Stun three seconds after causing damage (instead of the current strange version), and the other can be centered on itself and cause Stun to everyone around after a delay of three seconds, instead of having to wait for someone to attack before triggering Stun.

Dark Exchange:
Remove the casting time, PLEASE.

Daedric Tomb:
Another almost dead skill that needs to be reworked. Maybe it can be made into a magic damage version of Fire Rune, but its effect is changed to: "After casting, it causes a violent explosion within the specified range every 5 seconds, a total of 3 times (15 seconds), causing X points of damage to the target within the range". To match the characteristics of Dark Magic that most of the damage is direct.

Blood Magic:
In addition to the original effects, new additions: Increases the healing you deal by 1/2%, or provides Minor Mending.

Persistence:
A very bland ability that needs to be reworked. For example: "When dealing critical damage or critical healing, restore an additional 1500/3000 maximum resources to yourself, this effect triggers once every 15 seconds"

Exploitation:
Gives it 3000 Offensive Penetration, or increases the direct damage it deals to the target by 5%. Makes it competitive with Hemorrhage.

I'm very happy to see that the official is willing to listen to player suggestions and make changes. This is very helpful in rebuilding trust between each other and is also a necessary method for the long-term operation of the game.

Reginald_leBlem · July 15

Appreciate the changes, and the update! Hoping for some good natch potes next week that show you guys DO like fun

Yudo · July 15

Happy to see official feedback between PTS releases.
This seems like a better solution for build variety and relevance.

fizzybeef · July 15

Wow Zos listening?!

Since we have you hearing now aparently…
When crossplay?

ZhuJiuyin · July 15

Also, I don't see any mention of whether Dark Exchange will re-grant Minor Force and restore the 10 second buff, and whether Bound Armaments will continue to grant Major Prophecy and Savagery? (Also, the text description of v11-1-0 is wrong, it says: Bound Armaments: This morph now grants Major Sorcery and Prophecy (12% Critical Chance) for slotting, rather than 8% Max Stamina.)

Restricting Minor Force to Dark Exchange seems unnecessary to me. Dark Conversion and Dark Exchange should both have 20 seconds of Minor Berserk and Minor Force (if the cast time of both is not removed), or after removing the cast time, move Minor Force to other less used skills.

WreckfulAbandon · July 15

Thank you for listening and responding, and above all for reverting the Lightning Form change!

emilyhyoyeon · July 15

Really happy to see these changes back, especially sorcerers getting the % max mag and stam again. I also like seeing Bound Aegis given a sorcerer-tank emphasis.

MurkyWetWolf198 · July 15

Love to see you guys actually listening. I think most of these changes are pretty good. I also appreciate getting updates outside of the weekly pts patch cycle, the more communication the better