PTS Update 46 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities

madmufffin

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Having thought about it, I feel like I am going to be penalized for not wanting to mess around with subclassing.

Why? Most base skill lines were buffed.

Alpheu5

As a sorc main, the changes to Daedric Summoning are beyond devastating from both a tanking and dps perspective. I was having fun getting back into the game, then those notes just washed away all enthusiasm I had for the rest of the year. I guess it was time to expend some of the good will banked over the years.

AdmiralDigby

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for current class balance and abilities. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance. Please keep in mind that many of the updates related to classes and abilities are with Subclassing as a focal point this update.

https://youtu.be/lwLv44bD9Lw

This will break the game. It's a terrible idea. Don't do it.

wolfie1.0.

madmufffin wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Having thought about it, I feel like I am going to be penalized for not wanting to mess around with subclassing.

Why? Most base skill lines were buffed.

Please explain, because in reading the patch notes I can see where subclasses get benefits, but most of the most useful passives and skills from each class looked nerfed.

I main a magplar, a stam dk and a sorc and I see nerfs. So I'm trying to make sense of it. But it looks like if I keep my builds I'm nerfed. Almost as if there is a penalty for not subclassing.

wolfie1.0.

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for current class balance and abilities. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance. Please keep in mind that many of the updates related to classes and abilities are with Subclassing as a focal point this update.

https://youtu.be/lwLv44bD9Lw

This will break the game. It's a terrible idea. Don't do it.

They are not going to undo it, they will just bring more nerfs.

MurkyWetWolf198

I think a good idea would be to figure out which skill lines are consistently getting dropped for subclassing, and start giving buffs there. I’m okay with this as an initial pts because the point is to work out the kinks. I would like to see some buffs hit the weaker skill lines to make help them achieve strong results too. If we’re gonna power creep, it should be fair

madmufffin

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Having thought about it, I feel like I am going to be penalized for not wanting to mess around with subclassing.

Why? Most base skill lines were buffed.

Please explain, because in reading the patch notes I can see where subclasses get benefits, but most of the most useful passives and skills from each class looked nerfed.

I main a magplar, a stam dk and a sorc and I see nerfs. So I'm trying to make sense of it. But it looks like if I keep my builds I'm nerfed. Almost as if there is a penalty for not subclassing.

Overall I'd say the changes to warmth outweight the changes to combustion on DK. Templar it's yet to be seen how the radiant changes play out, but overall I'd say is pretty balance in changes otherwise. Sorc got massacred. I'll give you that one.

MurkyWetWolf198

Can someone elaborate on how the Sorc has been hurt? I play magsorc occasionally in PvE, but have almost no experience tanking. I don’t understand or see how it got hurt

madmufffin

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Can someone elaborate on how the Sorc has been hurt? I play magsorc occasionally in PvE, but have almost no experience tanking. I don’t understand or see how it got hurt

They moved stuff around so that it doesn't fit nicely for subclassing. For straight up only playing sorc it should be ok.

PrinceShroob

madmufffin wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Can someone elaborate on how the Sorc has been hurt? I play magsorc occasionally in PvE, but have almost no experience tanking. I don’t understand or see how it got hurt

They moved stuff around so that it doesn't fit nicely for subclassing. For straight up only playing sorc it should be ok.

It's not. You're now forced to use a pet to get the benefit of Expert Summoner, harming Sorcerer tanks and PvPers, who don't use the summons.

In fact, not having to run the pet--and therefore, not having to waste a skill slot on an underwhelming heal--was what helped make Sorcerers competent tanks.

And that's not even getting into attempting to massacre Hardened Ward. Regenerative Ward actually does heal without a pet, so the patch notes are completely wrong--but it's still at half the strength of on live.

This really smacks of punishing Sorcerers so that other classes don't crib Hardened Ward using subclassing. And it completely undoes all the gains non-pet Sorcerers made over the last few patches. It's completely inconsistent.

Ratzkifal

Feedback for "Classes"? What is that?
I don't get why you would add Subclassing (it's actually Multiclassing) but then put an artificial restriction on it like not being able to swap all 3 skill lines or only being allowed to take one of each class. If a combination of 2 Necro 1 Sorc is allowed for Necro, why disallow it for Sorc? You are clearly fine with Sorcs giving up two of their skill lines if they are spread out more and it's not a balance concern either. It's just an artificial limitation. Either remove classes completely, or keep the restrictions tighter to where they still make sense (for example by only allowing one skill line swap, not two).

Also, this fails to deliver on giving people the ability to "class change". You are still stuck with what you picked at the start of the game, when some classes hadn't even been released yet. Even with Subclassing Multiclassing, you are still stuck to what your Class Mastery script does. And you are still stuck to only one class that you can pick up two skill lines from.

I am against this feature. I wanted class change tokens, not this. I didn't want the erasure of classes and I want a return to stronger class identity, like we used to have. Please save yourselves the headache of balancing this mess, take the L, and work on something like 3rd morph choices instead.

If we are actually going to put this unholy feature into the game, then have your class choice only determine your starting skill lines. Make class mastery script switch effect once two or more of a different class' skill lines are equipped, or come up with different script effects tied to multiclass characters. The way it is now is neither in line with the traditional Elder Scrolls experience nor with proper MMOs - it's a bad compromise, that's stuck in the uncanny valley between.
And also, don't be afraid to delay this feature into another quarter if you have to. Releasing this in a broken state is not going to help anyone.

spartaxoxo

I'm very concerned about how skills will play out if you DON'T want to subclass. Right now, I'm actually pretty happy with my sorc but these nerfs look pretty brutal?

MashmalloMan

Edit: Your dev comment for BA nerfs is from Deadric Prey, so I'm super curious to see the reasoning behind this.

Why? Bound Armaments is already the worse of the two, and for some reason you decided to buff Grim Focus by allowing the Weapon Damage to stack to 450/600, while nerfing Bound Armaments damage by -10% despite them being functionally the same ability. Mercilous Resolve already deals 37% more damage than BA on live, it now has up to 450 weapon damage, lasts infinitely while BA stacks only last 10s, and lastly heals for a huge amount. Also allowing for 2 procs on both abilities is a neat idea, but it can't be understated how powerful it's going to be to allow someone 2 chances at using Grim Focus from stealth, a skill that deals ult level burst with Death Stroke.. but yeah.. lets buff Grim Focus and nerf BA because of pet sorcs?

Also, why is Bound Armaments and Bound Aegis still providing +8% Mag OR +8% Stam when we're still hybridzing the game to work for everyone? This is the same patch you've hybridized NB's Magicka Flood to also offer Stamina.

Additionally, you removed the Expert Summoner passive for no pet Sorc's that were the most likely to use skills like Bound Armaments (nerfed), Hardened Ward (nerfed), and Haunting Curse. Your dev comment of "no pet sorc's can use subclassing" is really underhanded. No other class seems to have nerfs with comments like that. I thought the point was for subclassing to be optional, not necessarily optimal, and this is coming from someone excited to use it, but I can't understand why the class is designed this way.

On the chance I want to use Daedric Summoning without pets, I'm now punished for it. I really want to use these core abilities I care about, but why would I when NB's Assassination line esentially does the same thing, but better in every way? Why offer the option to use those skills at all if the line is meant for pets?

Can we just outright move Bound Armaments to Dark Magic? Maybe move Mines or Encase over to Daedric Summoning? If you did that, then Dark Magic would be a little bit more enticing to use. As it stands now, it has Crystal Frags and that's it. Dark Deal for pvp, then a bunch of cost reduction passives and minor prophecy (which has no other passive bonus despite NB giving 10% crit dmg) which I could again.. pick up from NB's Assassination line giving me over 25% crit chance, up to 600 weapon damage, and 2k resource return from kills.

Sorcerer as a whole feels very disjointed. Storm Calling is the obvious "DPS" line, but really, it's a damage/utility line with Surge/Streak taking up 2/5 slots. Only Hurricane is worth using in all content for DPS, Endless Fury is only useful for kill stealing in pvp and is by far the weakest execute in the game for pve, and Liquid Lightning hasn't been on a Sorc's bar in pve for 6 years.

Obviously this is entirely from a DPS perspective. The sustain passive shifting to Storm Calling, moving to flat weapon damage instead of a multilpier, mitigation for Daedric Summoning being active, and Crystal Shards proccing from either bar are all decent to cool changes. Also the Hardened Ward nerf was entirely justified, but most of us never requested the heal in the 1st place.

madmufffin

PrinceShroob wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Can someone elaborate on how the Sorc has been hurt? I play magsorc occasionally in PvE, but have almost no experience tanking. I don’t understand or see how it got hurt

They moved stuff around so that it doesn't fit nicely for subclassing. For straight up only playing sorc it should be ok.

It's not. You're now forced to use a pet to get the benefit of Expert Summoner, harming Sorcerer tanks and PvPers, who don't use the summons.

In fact, not having to run the pet--and therefore, not having to waste a skill slot on an underwhelming heal--was what helped make Sorcerers competent tanks.

And that's not even getting into attempting to massacre Hardened Ward. Regenerative Ward actually does heal without a pet, so the patch notes are completely wrong--but it's still at half the strength of on live.

This really smacks of punishing Sorcerers so that other classes don't crib Hardened Ward using subclassing. And it completely undoes all the gains non-pet Sorcerers made over the last few patches. It's completely inconsistent.

I don't sorc tank a lot and know you do, so can't speak to everything on it, but Bound Aegis was untouched, Hardened is still a very big shield that stacks with other shields, and there's a stupid amount of heals in the game with just scribing let alone subclassing. That being said, moving the recovery to the Storm Calling line makes no sense. With most of the classes getting an objective buff, it does seem weird that sorc and arc both kinda got kicked in the balls for no reason.

PrinceShroob

madmufffin wrote: »

[With most of the classes getting an objective buff, it does seem weird that sorc and arc both kinda got kicked in the balls for no reason.

I think it's pretty obvious. Arcanist was an easy-to-play but strong DPS and there's endless threads about Sorcerers in PvP. Essentially, the devs are throwing up their hands and saying "we don't know how to balance it, let's just make everyone overpowered." It's a real shame because I think the meta, for PvE at least, was in a good place--every class fit in somewhere in some role. Sure, you couldn't take a magsorc DPS to anything serious, but with the armory, that magsorc could be a sorc tank and be much more welcome.

Having done the subclassing intro quest, I'd really rather see Bahtra's dialogue repurposed for some kind of in-game reclassing, which, frankly, I think would be healthier for the game and make people happier, generally.

Subclassing is just... completely at odds with how the game has tried to be alt-friendly. Do you want us to make alts or do you want us to do everything on one character? Who but your main has 40+ extra skill points available to subclass? Pick one, please.

Tonturri

The patch notes seem to be a mixture of changes I think are fantastic, and others that just seem like a complete miss.

Dragonknight
The Combustion adjustment changes sustain from the passive to ~211 from 500 regen, assuming on CD activation. The 6% DoT damage increase is nice and it's not exactly a trade I'd hate to make, but I don't understand why this change was made, especially since on-CD activation isn't really the norm and this wasn't exactly an overpowered sustain passive to begin with since it required for things to already be 'rolling' so to speak.

The damage is nice, but this is also a harder blow considering the nerf to Battle Roar.

Same for Burning Heart, not really sure why this was done but I do like the (apparent) compensation in buffing Scaled Armor.

That said, I think the big miss here is Elder Dragon. You could triple this and it'd still be almost entirely useless, especially since it's only functional on the active bar. This passive falls far behind every other per-active-skill passive in the game.

Templar
Heck yeah Spear Wall buffs. I'm here for it. I'm not sure why increased damage to blocking players is still around, though. This is exclusively PvP oriented since, insofar as I know, PvE mobs don't block. Small increase to critical damage is nice though.

I get the changes to Radiant Destruction, but I think this skill holds enough of templar's power budget that the class would need even more buffs to make up for this, and it'd have to be done very delicately. Please be very careful here. I'm also not sure about making it dodgeable, since it was blockable as well. It's perfectly fine for dodge to not work against everything.

Love the change to Mending. Heck yeah, fantastic. Wanted this for a while.

I'm a little torn on Light Weaver. the Rite ultimate made templars supremely tanky in PvP, and while I recall there being some issues with the low cost of Rite making the templar very frequently basically unkillable due to high armor and CC immunity + pulsing heals, this is a solid bonk on the head to Rite and there don't appear to be any buffs to the ultimate skill. It seems like Rite has fallen out of favor as a healing ult, especially since it requires a channel that prevents the templar from doing anything else. It also seems now possible to get the auto block activation using another cast or channel skill, like jabs, then use the ult and not get it. Perhaps Rite should just get an exception to always activate this passive, or just give it a lesser (unique) damage reduction that's active while channeling?

Nightblade
Solid, no notes.

Sorcerer
Context: I don't like sorc pets because they take up two bar slots.

I like that the heal was added to Regenerative Ward, as imo it should've from the start, but I don't like the 'requires pets' tacked on. I don't think this skill sees much use compared to Hardened Ward. Just make Regenerative Ward heal, and perhaps increase the heal if pets or active (or reduce it if no pets, whichever).

The rest seem nice, especially Mages' Fury. Long overdue duration reduction for PvP, 10/10.

Warden
Seems good overall, though I'm no high DPS person and I've always hated the Winter's Embrace line. Nice to see Northern Storm be made more of a long term threat thing over short term burst.

Necromancer
Some nice buffs in here, but necromancer needs more help than this, imo. Nice to see Empowering Grasp be given more love, but I'm still of the opinion that it just needs a redesign - the separate areas just aren't doing it.

You also nerfed Undead Confederate when necromancer sustain already sucked . The Reusable Parts buff is nice but necro sustain will still be bottom tier. Overall necro seems to be in the same spot after a mix of buffs and nerfs - a 'meh' spot, with passives that other classes will benefit far more compared to necros.

Arcanist
No notes, decent. Not sure I like seeing more 6 target caps though. Will see how it feels for a bit.

Scribing
Ulfsild's Contingency - totally fair nerf lol, it worked its way into a ton of builds and was even lower cost due to mage guild passives. I like this way of reducing it, as I think the shielding it's been giving has been far too impactful and made certain threats in the game negligible.

ESO_Nightingale

For class feedback, i made a bigger post, but to summarise:

Piercing Cold is undertuned as is either way. Could do 1 of multiple things

• increases Area of Effect damage by 5% and Frost Damage by 10%
• increases damage done by 5% and Frost Damage by 5%.
• increases Frost Damage by 10% and critical chance by 5%

I definitely want to keep the increased frost damage bonus at the same time to empower builds that don't want to spec 100% into frost.

Winter's Embrace dps builds lack an effective delayed burst damage tool lack an effective payoff skill that capitalises off our frost damage skills and chilled status effect application rates.

Regarding Daedric Summoning and bound aegis/armaments, i do not like that this skill was nerfed for seemingly no reason, while the rest of the line no longer benefits non pet builds. i would be a lot more forgiving for this change if bound armor and its morphs swapped places with Daedric Mines. as it stands i want to utilise bound armaments and crystal fragments but i don't like the rest of the lines that these 2 skills are part of as i do not like pets in daedric summoning, and i feel like dark magic has too many utility abilities i won't use. swapping these would do wonders for build creation and would raise the value of dark magic a lot.

ZhuJiuyin

I had hoped that Subclassing could save nopet-sorc, but when I tried, I was sad to find that the non-sorc class skills far outweighed the sorc's own skills.
The main reason is that in previous versions, most of the DPS budget of the sorc's three skill lines has been allocated to Daedric Summoning. If the developers really want to allow sorcs to play nopet-sorcs through subclassing, more dps budget needs to be allocated to the other two skill lines.

Dark Magic: Apart from crystals and trading, other skills and passive abilities are unremarkable. Storm Calling: Surge, Lightning Splash, Boundless Storm, and Endless Fury all need to be reworked, otherwise they will not be able to compete with other Subclassings.

cmetzger93

Beyond excited for Subclassing but at this point I don't know why we would even keep a main "class" vs doing away with the concept of classes (and the associated restrictions on keeping a single skill line from your main class and not taking two from the same other class) and just make it fully open since those combinations are possible in every scenario anyways. This is amazing but feels like a half measure for what it should end up being.

Thanks for continuing to experiment and letting your players have FUN!

BlackLabel

So let me get this straight, the only way to justify using sorc shields & curse skill line is that I must play as a pet sorc?

Why do we have an ultimatum for this skill line?

Ratzkifal

Tonturri wrote: »

The patch notes seem to be a mixture of changes I think are fantastic, and others that just seem like a complete miss.

Dragonknight
The Combustion adjustment changes sustain from the passive to ~211 from 500 regen, assuming on CD activation. The 6% DoT damage increase is nice and it's not exactly a trade I'd hate to make, but I don't understand why this change was made, especially since on-CD activation isn't really the norm and this wasn't exactly an overpowered sustain passive to begin with since it required for things to already be 'rolling' so to speak.

The damage is nice, but this is also a harder blow considering the nerf to Battle Roar.

Same for Burning Heart, not really sure why this was done but I do like the (apparent) compensation in buffing Scaled Armor.

That said, I think the big miss here is Elder Dragon. You could triple this and it'd still be almost entirely useless, especially since it's only functional on the active bar. This passive falls far behind every other per-active-skill passive in the game.

Templar
Heck yeah Spear Wall buffs. I'm here for it. I'm not sure why increased damage to blocking players is still around, though. This is exclusively PvP oriented since, insofar as I know, PvE mobs don't block. Small increase to critical damage is nice though.

I get the changes to Radiant Destruction, but I think this skill holds enough of templar's power budget that the class would need even more buffs to make up for this, and it'd have to be done very delicately. Please be very careful here. I'm also not sure about making it dodgeable, since it was blockable as well. It's perfectly fine for dodge to not work against everything.

Love the change to Mending. Heck yeah, fantastic. Wanted this for a while.

I'm a little torn on Light Weaver. the Rite ultimate made templars supremely tanky in PvP, and while I recall there being some issues with the low cost of Rite making the templar very frequently basically unkillable due to high armor and CC immunity + pulsing heals, this is a solid bonk on the head to Rite and there don't appear to be any buffs to the ultimate skill. It seems like Rite has fallen out of favor as a healing ult, especially since it requires a channel that prevents the templar from doing anything else. It also seems now possible to get the auto block activation using another cast or channel skill, like jabs, then use the ult and not get it. Perhaps Rite should just get an exception to always activate this passive, or just give it a lesser (unique) damage reduction that's active while channeling?

Nightblade
Solid, no notes.

Sorcerer
Context: I don't like sorc pets because they take up two bar slots.

I like that the heal was added to Regenerative Ward, as imo it should've from the start, but I don't like the 'requires pets' tacked on. I don't think this skill sees much use compared to Hardened Ward. Just make Regenerative Ward heal, and perhaps increase the heal if pets or active (or reduce it if no pets, whichever).

The rest seem nice, especially Mages' Fury. Long overdue duration reduction for PvP, 10/10.

Warden
Seems good overall, though I'm no high DPS person and I've always hated the Winter's Embrace line. Nice to see Northern Storm be made more of a long term threat thing over short term burst.

Necromancer
Some nice buffs in here, but necromancer needs more help than this, imo. Nice to see Empowering Grasp be given more love, but I'm still of the opinion that it just needs a redesign - the separate areas just aren't doing it.

You also nerfed Undead Confederate when necromancer sustain already sucked . The Reusable Parts buff is nice but necro sustain will still be bottom tier. Overall necro seems to be in the same spot after a mix of buffs and nerfs - a 'meh' spot, with passives that other classes will benefit far more compared to necros.

Arcanist
No notes, decent. Not sure I like seeing more 6 target caps though. Will see how it feels for a bit.

Scribing
Ulfsild's Contingency - totally fair nerf lol, it worked its way into a ton of builds and was even lower cost due to mage guild passives. I like this way of reducing it, as I think the shielding it's been giving has been far too impactful and made certain threats in the game negligible.

@Tonturri Sorc pets do not take up two bar slots anymore. They disappear only once unsummoned.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Daedric_Summoning

Edit: This is fake news, they still disappear when bar swapping and so do Warden bears. Sorry about that. The phrase in the skill description "disappear once unsummoned" is misleading.

acastanza_ESO

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Edit: Your dev comment for BA nerfs is from Deadric Prey, so I'm super curious to see the reasoning behind this.

Why? Bound Armaments is already the worse of the two, and for some reason you decided to buff Grim Focus by allowing the Weapon Damage to stack to 450/600, while nerfing Bound Armaments damage by -10% despite them being functionally the same ability. Mercilous Resolve already deals 37% more damage than BA on live, it now has up to 450 weapon damage, lasts infinitely while BA stacks only last 10s, and lastly heals for a huge amount. Also allowing for 2 procs on both abilities is a neat idea, but it can't be understated how powerful it's going to be to allow someone 2 chances at using Grim Focus from stealth, a skill that deals ult level burst with Death Stroke.. but yeah.. lets buff Grim Focus and nerf BA because of pet sorcs?

Also, why is Bound Armaments and Bound Aegis still providing +8% Mag OR +8% Stam when we're still hybridzing the game to work for everyone? This is the same patch you've hybridized NB's Magicka Flood to also offer Stamina.

Additionally, you removed the Expert Summoner passive for no pet Sorc's that were the most likely to use skills like Bound Armaments (nerfed), Hardened Ward (nerfed), and Haunting Curse. Your dev comment of "no pet sorc's can use subclassing" is really underhanded. No other class seems to have nerfs with comments like that. I thought the point was for subclassing to be optional, not necessarily optimal, and this is coming from someone excited to use it, but I can't understand why the class is designed this way.

On the chance I want to use Daedric Summoning without pets, I'm now punished for it. I really want to use these core abilities I care about, but why would I when NB's Assassination line esentially does the same thing, but better in every way? Why offer the option to use those skills at all if the line is meant for pets?

Can we just outright move Bound Armaments to Dark Magic? Maybe move Mines or Encase over to Daedric Summoning? If you did that, then Dark Magic would be a little bit more enticing to use. As it stands now, it has Crystal Frags and that's it. Dark Deal for pvp, then a bunch of cost reduction passives and minor prophecy (which has no other passive bonus despite NB giving 10% crit dmg) which I could again.. pick up from NB's Assassination line giving me over 25% crit chance, up to 600 weapon damage, and 2k resource return from kills.

Sorcerer as a whole feels very disjointed. Storm Calling is the obvious "DPS" line, but really, it's a damage/utility line with Surge/Streak taking up 2/5 slots. Only Hurricane is worth using in all content for DPS, Endless Fury is only useful for kill stealing in pvp and is by far the weakest execute in the game for pve, and Liquid Lightning hasn't been on a Sorc's bar in pve for 6 years.

Obviously this is entirely from a DPS perspective. The sustain passive shifting to Storm Calling, moving to flat weapon damage instead of a multilpier, mitigation for Daedric Summoning being active, and Crystal Shards proccing from either bar are all decent to cool changes. Also the Hardened Ward nerf was entirely justified, but most of us never requested the heal in the 1st place.

So much all of this

gc0018

You guys should limit/weaken the use of subclass instead of changing skills from all the classes. Compare to read through all those change word walls, I choice to quit PTS for now until ZOS really understand what they are doing.

ForumBully

"Those who do not wish to interact with the pet gameplay can now replace this skill line as a whole."

What is going on with Daedric Summoning, seriously? Is this the "love it or leave it" philosophy for a whole skill line? Is someone at ZoS so deeply in love with clan fears that the whole skill line is a haven only for like-minded pet lovers?
Good patch notes, but this is seriously freaking weird.

Jestir

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

The patch notes seem to be a mixture of changes I think are fantastic, and others that just seem like a complete miss.

Dragonknight
The Combustion adjustment changes sustain from the passive to ~211 from 500 regen, assuming on CD activation. The 6% DoT damage increase is nice and it's not exactly a trade I'd hate to make, but I don't understand why this change was made, especially since on-CD activation isn't really the norm and this wasn't exactly an overpowered sustain passive to begin with since it required for things to already be 'rolling' so to speak.

The damage is nice, but this is also a harder blow considering the nerf to Battle Roar.

Same for Burning Heart, not really sure why this was done but I do like the (apparent) compensation in buffing Scaled Armor.

That said, I think the big miss here is Elder Dragon. You could triple this and it'd still be almost entirely useless, especially since it's only functional on the active bar. This passive falls far behind every other per-active-skill passive in the game.

Templar
Heck yeah Spear Wall buffs. I'm here for it. I'm not sure why increased damage to blocking players is still around, though. This is exclusively PvP oriented since, insofar as I know, PvE mobs don't block. Small increase to critical damage is nice though.

I get the changes to Radiant Destruction, but I think this skill holds enough of templar's power budget that the class would need even more buffs to make up for this, and it'd have to be done very delicately. Please be very careful here. I'm also not sure about making it dodgeable, since it was blockable as well. It's perfectly fine for dodge to not work against everything.

Love the change to Mending. Heck yeah, fantastic. Wanted this for a while.

I'm a little torn on Light Weaver. the Rite ultimate made templars supremely tanky in PvP, and while I recall there being some issues with the low cost of Rite making the templar very frequently basically unkillable due to high armor and CC immunity + pulsing heals, this is a solid bonk on the head to Rite and there don't appear to be any buffs to the ultimate skill. It seems like Rite has fallen out of favor as a healing ult, especially since it requires a channel that prevents the templar from doing anything else. It also seems now possible to get the auto block activation using another cast or channel skill, like jabs, then use the ult and not get it. Perhaps Rite should just get an exception to always activate this passive, or just give it a lesser (unique) damage reduction that's active while channeling?

Nightblade
Solid, no notes.

Sorcerer
Context: I don't like sorc pets because they take up two bar slots.

I like that the heal was added to Regenerative Ward, as imo it should've from the start, but I don't like the 'requires pets' tacked on. I don't think this skill sees much use compared to Hardened Ward. Just make Regenerative Ward heal, and perhaps increase the heal if pets or active (or reduce it if no pets, whichever).

The rest seem nice, especially Mages' Fury. Long overdue duration reduction for PvP, 10/10.

Warden
Seems good overall, though I'm no high DPS person and I've always hated the Winter's Embrace line. Nice to see Northern Storm be made more of a long term threat thing over short term burst.

Necromancer
Some nice buffs in here, but necromancer needs more help than this, imo. Nice to see Empowering Grasp be given more love, but I'm still of the opinion that it just needs a redesign - the separate areas just aren't doing it.

You also nerfed Undead Confederate when necromancer sustain already sucked . The Reusable Parts buff is nice but necro sustain will still be bottom tier. Overall necro seems to be in the same spot after a mix of buffs and nerfs - a 'meh' spot, with passives that other classes will benefit far more compared to necros.

Arcanist
No notes, decent. Not sure I like seeing more 6 target caps though. Will see how it feels for a bit.

Scribing
Ulfsild's Contingency - totally fair nerf lol, it worked its way into a ton of builds and was even lower cost due to mage guild passives. I like this way of reducing it, as I think the shielding it's been giving has been far too impactful and made certain threats in the game negligible.

@Tonturri Sorc pets do not take up two bar slots anymore. They disappear only once unsummoned.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Daedric_Summoning

Have you been on PTS? that isn't true

Dont fall for bait

Jestir

I would like to give the feedback that the stacking necro's GLS and rapid rot passive on top of arc and temp beams should not be a thing

My god it's insane

Tonturri

Jestir wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

The patch notes seem to be a mixture of changes I think are fantastic, and others that just seem like a complete miss.

Dragonknight
The Combustion adjustment changes sustain from the passive to ~211 from 500 regen, assuming on CD activation. The 6% DoT damage increase is nice and it's not exactly a trade I'd hate to make, but I don't understand why this change was made, especially since on-CD activation isn't really the norm and this wasn't exactly an overpowered sustain passive to begin with since it required for things to already be 'rolling' so to speak.

The damage is nice, but this is also a harder blow considering the nerf to Battle Roar.

Same for Burning Heart, not really sure why this was done but I do like the (apparent) compensation in buffing Scaled Armor.

That said, I think the big miss here is Elder Dragon. You could triple this and it'd still be almost entirely useless, especially since it's only functional on the active bar. This passive falls far behind every other per-active-skill passive in the game.

Templar
Heck yeah Spear Wall buffs. I'm here for it. I'm not sure why increased damage to blocking players is still around, though. This is exclusively PvP oriented since, insofar as I know, PvE mobs don't block. Small increase to critical damage is nice though.

I get the changes to Radiant Destruction, but I think this skill holds enough of templar's power budget that the class would need even more buffs to make up for this, and it'd have to be done very delicately. Please be very careful here. I'm also not sure about making it dodgeable, since it was blockable as well. It's perfectly fine for dodge to not work against everything.

Love the change to Mending. Heck yeah, fantastic. Wanted this for a while.

I'm a little torn on Light Weaver. the Rite ultimate made templars supremely tanky in PvP, and while I recall there being some issues with the low cost of Rite making the templar very frequently basically unkillable due to high armor and CC immunity + pulsing heals, this is a solid bonk on the head to Rite and there don't appear to be any buffs to the ultimate skill. It seems like Rite has fallen out of favor as a healing ult, especially since it requires a channel that prevents the templar from doing anything else. It also seems now possible to get the auto block activation using another cast or channel skill, like jabs, then use the ult and not get it. Perhaps Rite should just get an exception to always activate this passive, or just give it a lesser (unique) damage reduction that's active while channeling?

Nightblade
Solid, no notes.

Sorcerer
Context: I don't like sorc pets because they take up two bar slots.

I like that the heal was added to Regenerative Ward, as imo it should've from the start, but I don't like the 'requires pets' tacked on. I don't think this skill sees much use compared to Hardened Ward. Just make Regenerative Ward heal, and perhaps increase the heal if pets or active (or reduce it if no pets, whichever).

The rest seem nice, especially Mages' Fury. Long overdue duration reduction for PvP, 10/10.

Warden
Seems good overall, though I'm no high DPS person and I've always hated the Winter's Embrace line. Nice to see Northern Storm be made more of a long term threat thing over short term burst.

Necromancer
Some nice buffs in here, but necromancer needs more help than this, imo. Nice to see Empowering Grasp be given more love, but I'm still of the opinion that it just needs a redesign - the separate areas just aren't doing it.

You also nerfed Undead Confederate when necromancer sustain already sucked . The Reusable Parts buff is nice but necro sustain will still be bottom tier. Overall necro seems to be in the same spot after a mix of buffs and nerfs - a 'meh' spot, with passives that other classes will benefit far more compared to necros.

Arcanist
No notes, decent. Not sure I like seeing more 6 target caps though. Will see how it feels for a bit.

Scribing
Ulfsild's Contingency - totally fair nerf lol, it worked its way into a ton of builds and was even lower cost due to mage guild passives. I like this way of reducing it, as I think the shielding it's been giving has been far too impactful and made certain threats in the game negligible.

@Tonturri Sorc pets do not take up two bar slots anymore. They disappear only once unsummoned.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Daedric_Summoning

Have you been on PTS? that isn't true

Dont fall for bait

Got my hopes up for a second there Even logged back into live before bed to check.

Deimus

I was bracing myself for huge out of touch Necromancer nerfs. Simply put this is top tier when it comes to positive Necromancer changes (some buffs but always a couple of nerfs to go along with it), but doesn't really do anything to make the class good. At this point you're delusional if you think Necromancer is ever going to get anything half as good as two Spec Bows in the chamber (Seriously who came up with this is it the person who put a heal on Hardened Ward? And how do I convince them Necromancers are cool?). RoA, Incap, double Spec Bow with a timed delayed burst is the new PvP meta get ready for everyone to become even more tanky or just become gankers.

I encountered the bug where I couldn't cast Blastbones quite a few times, but I could never figure out what caused it so nice to see that being fixed.

Grave Lord

• The Skulls corpse clause being added to the base skill is a good change. I'm not a fan of having to slot skill B to activate the full tooltip of skill A. Especially when when only have 10 slots. Venom skull will still be a melee skill since the speed wasn't increased or it made to be an undodgeable skill.
• Death Knell is a HUGE nerf if you play heavily into the class kit, but allows you to just run Blastbones and get a much better return now.
• Reusable Parts: Anything that helps sustain is needed on a Necro
• Dismember: This is a great change could swap my mundus stone out with this extra pen.

Bone Tyrant

• Last Gasp is still meh. Funny enough I mentioned before that they could double it and it still wouldn't be good. Give it something else or make it percent based. Next to Maturation this it's still a weak passive, but now compared to Expert Summoner which was cut in half it might fall in line with what they want these sort of passives to hover around.
• Health Avarice more healing ok
• Empowering Grasp just take a portion of that 1000 damage enhancement and throw it on Skeletal Mage lol while we're at it make it a DoT like the Vengeance version. The magicka version does a shock DoT and stamina version Poison DoT and the minion either refreshes it or hits unaffected enemies nearby. The Major Maim doesn't make the skill worth it, too expensive still and no guarantee to cc. The entire skill has always been a frustrating mini game, but when the skill dealt damage and cc it was bloated enough to justify the risk.

Living Death

• Curative Curse ok that's nice now remove the debuff from Resistant Flesh not that anyone is using that skill anymore.
• Near-Death Experience why? Necromancers running around with too strong of heals putting Polar Wind to shame? or afraid Warden and Templar healers would become too strong with this passive?
• Undead Confederate the one thing me and the Necro gang are always going on about is that we have too much recovery. We can't get rid of all this magicka and stamina fast enough! This is the most baffling change to me if anything this passive should've been doubled as well as Necro recovery is horrid, but at least it cements that Living Death is the skill tree to swap out.

supabicboi

sorc pets are ugly. i rarely use that as a sorc only main. once again nerfing the bejessus out of sorc, how many times has it been now in the 11 years of this games existence? I only play sorc, thanks for the good days when zos made magsorcs cracked. but rly? this kinda change is just disgusting, all this change towards a class, just to match the subclassing wave of chaos. the only thing from sorc skills that might be preserved for pvp is the storm calling line, mainly for streak, surge isnt even necessary these days with scribing. really forcing us sorc players to 'have to' migrate to other classes huh?

absolutely the best kind of pts update zos will ever announce. exactly the kind of update expected from zos, CRAZY how anyone, including me, thought zos would be whippin up some good stuff. this same kind of disappointment, is becoming stale.

when was the last time an update was received with a majority of support? i dont even remember the days when updates were cheered for anymore. forgot to mention the pets are utterly useless.

Ratzkifal

Jestir wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

The patch notes seem to be a mixture of changes I think are fantastic, and others that just seem like a complete miss.

Dragonknight
The Combustion adjustment changes sustain from the passive to ~211 from 500 regen, assuming on CD activation. The 6% DoT damage increase is nice and it's not exactly a trade I'd hate to make, but I don't understand why this change was made, especially since on-CD activation isn't really the norm and this wasn't exactly an overpowered sustain passive to begin with since it required for things to already be 'rolling' so to speak.

The damage is nice, but this is also a harder blow considering the nerf to Battle Roar.

Same for Burning Heart, not really sure why this was done but I do like the (apparent) compensation in buffing Scaled Armor.

That said, I think the big miss here is Elder Dragon. You could triple this and it'd still be almost entirely useless, especially since it's only functional on the active bar. This passive falls far behind every other per-active-skill passive in the game.

Templar
Heck yeah Spear Wall buffs. I'm here for it. I'm not sure why increased damage to blocking players is still around, though. This is exclusively PvP oriented since, insofar as I know, PvE mobs don't block. Small increase to critical damage is nice though.

I get the changes to Radiant Destruction, but I think this skill holds enough of templar's power budget that the class would need even more buffs to make up for this, and it'd have to be done very delicately. Please be very careful here. I'm also not sure about making it dodgeable, since it was blockable as well. It's perfectly fine for dodge to not work against everything.

Love the change to Mending. Heck yeah, fantastic. Wanted this for a while.

I'm a little torn on Light Weaver. the Rite ultimate made templars supremely tanky in PvP, and while I recall there being some issues with the low cost of Rite making the templar very frequently basically unkillable due to high armor and CC immunity + pulsing heals, this is a solid bonk on the head to Rite and there don't appear to be any buffs to the ultimate skill. It seems like Rite has fallen out of favor as a healing ult, especially since it requires a channel that prevents the templar from doing anything else. It also seems now possible to get the auto block activation using another cast or channel skill, like jabs, then use the ult and not get it. Perhaps Rite should just get an exception to always activate this passive, or just give it a lesser (unique) damage reduction that's active while channeling?

Nightblade
Solid, no notes.

Sorcerer
Context: I don't like sorc pets because they take up two bar slots.

I like that the heal was added to Regenerative Ward, as imo it should've from the start, but I don't like the 'requires pets' tacked on. I don't think this skill sees much use compared to Hardened Ward. Just make Regenerative Ward heal, and perhaps increase the heal if pets or active (or reduce it if no pets, whichever).

The rest seem nice, especially Mages' Fury. Long overdue duration reduction for PvP, 10/10.

Warden
Seems good overall, though I'm no high DPS person and I've always hated the Winter's Embrace line. Nice to see Northern Storm be made more of a long term threat thing over short term burst.

Necromancer
Some nice buffs in here, but necromancer needs more help than this, imo. Nice to see Empowering Grasp be given more love, but I'm still of the opinion that it just needs a redesign - the separate areas just aren't doing it.

You also nerfed Undead Confederate when necromancer sustain already sucked . The Reusable Parts buff is nice but necro sustain will still be bottom tier. Overall necro seems to be in the same spot after a mix of buffs and nerfs - a 'meh' spot, with passives that other classes will benefit far more compared to necros.

Arcanist
No notes, decent. Not sure I like seeing more 6 target caps though. Will see how it feels for a bit.

Scribing
Ulfsild's Contingency - totally fair nerf lol, it worked its way into a ton of builds and was even lower cost due to mage guild passives. I like this way of reducing it, as I think the shielding it's been giving has been far too impactful and made certain threats in the game negligible.

@Tonturri Sorc pets do not take up two bar slots anymore. They disappear only once unsummoned.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Daedric_Summoning

Have you been on PTS? that isn't true

Dont fall for bait

Tonturri wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

The patch notes seem to be a mixture of changes I think are fantastic, and others that just seem like a complete miss.

Dragonknight
The Combustion adjustment changes sustain from the passive to ~211 from 500 regen, assuming on CD activation. The 6% DoT damage increase is nice and it's not exactly a trade I'd hate to make, but I don't understand why this change was made, especially since on-CD activation isn't really the norm and this wasn't exactly an overpowered sustain passive to begin with since it required for things to already be 'rolling' so to speak.

The damage is nice, but this is also a harder blow considering the nerf to Battle Roar.

Same for Burning Heart, not really sure why this was done but I do like the (apparent) compensation in buffing Scaled Armor.

That said, I think the big miss here is Elder Dragon. You could triple this and it'd still be almost entirely useless, especially since it's only functional on the active bar. This passive falls far behind every other per-active-skill passive in the game.

Templar
Heck yeah Spear Wall buffs. I'm here for it. I'm not sure why increased damage to blocking players is still around, though. This is exclusively PvP oriented since, insofar as I know, PvE mobs don't block. Small increase to critical damage is nice though.

I get the changes to Radiant Destruction, but I think this skill holds enough of templar's power budget that the class would need even more buffs to make up for this, and it'd have to be done very delicately. Please be very careful here. I'm also not sure about making it dodgeable, since it was blockable as well. It's perfectly fine for dodge to not work against everything.

Love the change to Mending. Heck yeah, fantastic. Wanted this for a while.

I'm a little torn on Light Weaver. the Rite ultimate made templars supremely tanky in PvP, and while I recall there being some issues with the low cost of Rite making the templar very frequently basically unkillable due to high armor and CC immunity + pulsing heals, this is a solid bonk on the head to Rite and there don't appear to be any buffs to the ultimate skill. It seems like Rite has fallen out of favor as a healing ult, especially since it requires a channel that prevents the templar from doing anything else. It also seems now possible to get the auto block activation using another cast or channel skill, like jabs, then use the ult and not get it. Perhaps Rite should just get an exception to always activate this passive, or just give it a lesser (unique) damage reduction that's active while channeling?

Nightblade
Solid, no notes.

Sorcerer
Context: I don't like sorc pets because they take up two bar slots.

I like that the heal was added to Regenerative Ward, as imo it should've from the start, but I don't like the 'requires pets' tacked on. I don't think this skill sees much use compared to Hardened Ward. Just make Regenerative Ward heal, and perhaps increase the heal if pets or active (or reduce it if no pets, whichever).

The rest seem nice, especially Mages' Fury. Long overdue duration reduction for PvP, 10/10.

Warden
Seems good overall, though I'm no high DPS person and I've always hated the Winter's Embrace line. Nice to see Northern Storm be made more of a long term threat thing over short term burst.

Necromancer
Some nice buffs in here, but necromancer needs more help than this, imo. Nice to see Empowering Grasp be given more love, but I'm still of the opinion that it just needs a redesign - the separate areas just aren't doing it.

You also nerfed Undead Confederate when necromancer sustain already sucked . The Reusable Parts buff is nice but necro sustain will still be bottom tier. Overall necro seems to be in the same spot after a mix of buffs and nerfs - a 'meh' spot, with passives that other classes will benefit far more compared to necros.

Arcanist
No notes, decent. Not sure I like seeing more 6 target caps though. Will see how it feels for a bit.

Scribing
Ulfsild's Contingency - totally fair nerf lol, it worked its way into a ton of builds and was even lower cost due to mage guild passives. I like this way of reducing it, as I think the shielding it's been giving has been far too impactful and made certain threats in the game negligible.

@Tonturri Sorc pets do not take up two bar slots anymore. They disappear only once unsummoned.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Daedric_Summoning

Have you been on PTS? that isn't true

Dont fall for bait

Got my hopes up for a second there Even logged back into live before bed to check.

Oh. Oops. My bad! I could have sworn they changed that alongside Bound Armament/Aegis being active on the backbar.
Must be some case of Mandela effect. Shame on me for spreading fake news. In my defense, I play a non-pet Sorc because I simply do not like the play pattern, so I wouldn't use them even if they were on one bar only. Also why does it explicitly say "until unsummoned" if barswapping unsummons them?