Any Act with the INTENT to Cause Distress is a Bannable Offense

Dojohoda

Credible_Joe wrote: »

I remember reading somewhere that harassment is qualified when you ignore someone's clear and direct request to stop something they consider harassment, including teabagging, as well as mud-balls, snowballs, other emotes, text spam, invite spam, etc. And, obviously, straight up hate-speech and trash talk automatically qualifies.

For the life of me I can't find language to that effect in the TOS. @ZOS_Kevin , was that ever a thing?

I have read that too, here in the forums, a few years ago. The thread was a similar topic as this one, seeking clarification. I could be wrong but I think Gina wrote the comment.

Deserrick

ajkb78 wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

I do have to ask just because I’m curious. Since you had never heard of teabagging and had no idea what it was, what was your intention for crouching over a dead player’s body?

It's reasonable enough to go into stealth near a dead player in order to lie in wait for their mate coming to rez them. Whether there's any tactical reason to go in and out and in and out of stealth... ;-)

I will sometimes use it to surprise attack and disrupt a resurrection attempt. Due to the long-standing stealth bug (eye slowly closes and snaps open, for no discernable reason), I will rarely have to retry crouching. However, I think this isn't rapid enough to resemble the rude gesture.

React

Just checking if my sentry set is off cooldown.

Techwolf_Lupindo

said no one ever wrote: »

teabagging is a virtual gesture to mimic oral sex on a corpse w/o consent. at least thats how i understand it. is that clear enough?

That how I see it. Sexual harassment and folks really do go to jail for it if they are not rich enough to afford a good lawyer. Gay folks would even go as far as call it r.a.p.e. sense is sex without consent.

Stamicka

I’ve never seen someone get banned for crouching over a body unless they were told to stop before doing it again.

Regardless, banning over something like that is extreme. If crouching over a body is too offensive to watch how about… respawn? You can even pull up your map while someone is crouching and you won’t see it anymore.

I also find it funny that Brian Wheeler said he likes to play a tank build in PvP to frustrate people during the infamous BG stream. Isn’t that “intent to cause distress”?

I personally think that having the ability to block others is enough to stop actual continued harassment. Maybe ZOS can add another setting that makes it so that you can’t see the animation from other players when they go into crouch. I never thought it was all that serious though.

katanagirl1

darvaria wrote: »

YES, I have posted this before. While I appreciate seeing players actually banned for it, my point is WHY leave this in game? You can make crouching just a black cloud with NO movement. ZOS should not "enable" implied sexual harassment.

I keep posting this because it is a liability in waiting to leave this in the game. AND it adds no value to the game. You can stealth without crouching, since it is apparent there is a percentage of the player base that can't seem to show simple respect.

My PvE nightblade uses crouch with movement constantly. Are you going to ruin the game for me?

The solution is enforcement of the offense and not removing actual gameplay.

EDIT: not sure what you are saying about stealth without crouching. Maybe you are thinking of invisibility potions, but I don’t think you can interact with anything like containers with them. You also can’t interact with containers while using nightblade cloak, it makes you visible.

Crouching is what you use when doing thieving.

Thysbe

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

I'm simply wanting to garner a productive discussion on the grey area of "intent to harass".

@ZOS_Kevin ´s last post in another thread on this matter was clear enough. You only get a ban when you go on teabagging even if the other person asks you to stop.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/662651/teabagging

IMO this is a fair rule and gives the offender the chance to stop, which it seems you ingored and went on.

If you were asked to stop and went on it´s a well deserved ban. Even in PVP a minor level of social behaviour wont hurt. Hardly anyone wants a commnity as rotten and toxic as in many other games.

JavaRen

katanagirl1 wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

YES, I have posted this before. While I appreciate seeing players actually banned for it, my point is WHY leave this in game? You can make crouching just a black cloud with NO movement. ZOS should not "enable" implied sexual harassment.

I keep posting this because it is a liability in waiting to leave this in the game. AND it adds no value to the game. You can stealth without crouching, since it is apparent there is a percentage of the player base that can't seem to show simple respect.

My PvE nightblade uses crouch with movement constantly. Are you going to ruin the game for me?

The solution is enforcement of the offense and not removing actual gameplay.

EDIT: not sure what you are saying about stealth without crouching. Maybe you are thinking of invisibility potions, but I don’t think you can interact with anything like containers with them. You also can’t interact with containers while using nightblade cloak, it makes you visible.

Crouching is what you use when doing thieving.

What is being proposed is changing the animation so that when you enter stealth your character does not crouch. No one is suggesting taking stealth away from anyone or changing anything about how it works, just a graphics chsnge.

Djennku

So, OP is complaining about a ban he got when he ignored the person's request to stop, and continued doing it, which is a clear intention of harassment.

T bagging in itself isn't the problem. People do it all the time and it's a part of playing pvp, and has been a thing well before ESO existed. It also has nothing to do with nor has ever in any way intended to be interpreted in a sexual manner, and people trying to infer that it has ever had those connotations are trying to make a problem where there is none.

Anyone implying t bagging was ever used to sexually harass someone (yes, I see the comments trying to connect it to real criminal activity), please stop. You do not understand real sexual harassment and are doing a disservice to people who are real victims of those kinds of crimes.


That said, to clarify the matter completely, repeating any action that is causing another player distress, whether you feel it is acceptable or not, after said player has respectfully asked or requested you stop, IS harassment, and is what is bannable.

JavaRen

Point of order: the term "teabagging" is a euphemism for a sexual activity. So claiming that "teabagging has never been about anything sexual" is incorrect.

Ishtarknows

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

The point of the post was to direct attention to the specific language used in the agent's response, "Any act of intentionally harassing another player with the intent to cause distress". How can you prove intent? Where is the line? Can I get banned for trolling a ball group with negates if my intent was indeed to harass them?

If character actions in a video game are causing distress to someone I'd suggest they step away from said game and maybe seek medical help if it continues. Pixels shouldn't have this much of an effect on you.

Stamicka

Djennku wrote: »

That said, to clarify the matter completely, repeating any action that is causing another player distress, whether you feel it is acceptable or not, after said player has respectfully asked or requested you stop, IS harassment, and is what is bannable.

Wow, so if you kill someone questing in Imperial City after they ask you to stop, that is harassment and worthy of a ban?

That’s just so ridiculous. If someone is distressed there’s always the power button on their computer to make it all go away.

Stamicka

ArchMikem wrote: »

Bagging is the action of crouching and standing repeatedly on top of a fallen player. It is an act of harassment because it's done to exert dominance and humiliation over another person. It has nothing to do with "friendly competition". The very act itself is the opposite of friendliness, and if the person you do this to tells you to stop, and you don't, it's a TOS violation.

I’m pretty sure when I bought Morrowind when it first came out, I got this emote called “kiss this”. It makes a character turn around and make a gesture.




The description on the emote is: “When words aren’t strong enough to express your disdain, encourage them all to “Kiss this!””

This emote that ZOS put in the game themselves is basically not much different than teabagging and can also be used in PvP.

There’s no reason for this emote to exist other than to taunt people and the description confirms that. If ZOS puts emotes like this in the game themselves, then taunting people with other gestures in game should not be bannable at all.

Orbital78

I rarely PVP, but I was doing BG's during one of the bonus weekends. I tend to remain off line as I don't take it too seriously and don't want to bicker with tryhards or get their rage. I had some guy actually take the time to mail me accusing me of t-bagging him and calling me names (I didn't really care, as I don't take pvp seriously) and basically telling me I sucked at PVP and didn't deserve to t-bag him. The thing is, I didn't even t-bag him unless going into stealth near a corpse is considered t-bagging. I have played online games for a very long time, and my understanding of bagging is that you crouch and stand up repeatedly as to dip the bag on their forehead repeatedly. I was confused and kind of laughed that the person took such offense to dying to a PVE player.

Less care bear ZoS please, let people have fun. Harassment is bad, but this is silly. I had someone stalk and talk crap to me for over a year before I reported them. I had them on ignore for 90% of that time, but eventually did an ignore purge since the list is capped so low. They were still having a grudge of some sort a year later, so it is what it is and I reported them.

Pixiepumpkin

Elvenheart wrote: »

I do have to ask just because I’m curious. Since you had never heard of teabagging and had no idea what it was, what was your intention for crouching over a dead player’s body?

Actually, I do the exact same thing. One crouch, go into hidden. The reason is to let the enemy know, who is waiting around (this is in Cyrodill) that I am watching, hidden and waiting for their friend to res them.

Its an extremely viable tactic to crouch next to an enemy for the reasons I laid out.

Pixiepumpkin

said no one ever wrote: »

teabagging is a virtual gesture to mimic oral sex on a corpse w/o consent. at least thats how i understand it. is that clear enough?

Not exactly. That is how you rmight read it, but it's origins simply go back to a time when there was no other way to communicate (I beat you), which is its actual meaning. Its rubbing salt into the wound.

Firt time I saw it was in Halo on console where typing out is not a thing.

Its simply nonverbal communication, but unfortunately people have taken the meaning to mean something else in the modern day.

Pixiepumpkin

said no one ever wrote: »

[snip]

No, no it's not. I am LITERALLY trying to help explain to you the origins of spamming crouch and what it's actual meaning is.

Its a way to rub salt in the wounds so to speak and has nothing to do with sexual harassment.

I respect ZOS rules on this, I don't do it, but I do fear getting reported because I will do a single crouch (sometimes two, depends on latancy because my abilites dont always fire as I live in the EU and play on NA). I do so to camp the enemy in cyrodill to see if their friend is hidden in the Keep to res them.

[edited to remove quote]

Orbital78

My guildmates and friends tbag in a friendly way. They even have an addon for it.

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1976-TBagCounter.html

Give each other crap for dying in trials and such. People are way too sensitive and fragile these days. I fear that the next generation is going to be a bunch of babybacks.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Orbital78 wrote: »

My guildmates and friends tbag in a friendly way. They even have an addon for it.

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1976-TBagCounter.html

Give each other crap for dying in trials and such. People are way too sensitive and fragile these days. I fear that the next generation is going to be a bunch of babybacks.

Clearly they wouldn't be banned for such behaviour then. Friendly insults and actions are different to actions against someone who doesn't know you.

I would sympathise with the OP but the feigned ignorance to me shows that they were most likely taking things too far.

Grizzbeorn

Djennku wrote: »

So, OP is complaining about a ban he got when he ignored the person's request to stop, and continued doing it, which is a clear intention of harassment.

T bagging in itself isn't the problem. People do it all the time and it's a part of playing pvp, and has been a thing well before ESO existed. It also has nothing to do with nor has ever in any way intended to be interpreted in a sexual manner, and people trying to infer that it has ever had those connotations are trying to make a problem where there is none.

Anyone implying t bagging was ever used to sexually harass someone (yes, I see the comments trying to connect it to real criminal activity), please stop. You do not understand real sexual harassment and are doing a disservice to people who are real victims of those kinds of crimes.


That said, to clarify the matter completely, repeating any action that is causing another player distress, whether you feel it is acceptable or not, after said player has respectfully asked or requested you stop, IS harassment, and is what is bannable.

The very name of the action, "teabagging," literally describes an action with sexual connotations.

Orbital78

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

My guildmates and friends tbag in a friendly way. They even have an addon for it.

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1976-TBagCounter.html

Give each other crap for dying in trials and such. People are way too sensitive and fragile these days. I fear that the next generation is going to be a bunch of babybacks.

Clearly they wouldn't be banned for such behaviour then. Friendly insults and actions are different to actions against someone who doesn't know you.

I would sympathise with the OP but the feigned ignorance to me shows that they were most likely taking things too far.

It is hard to tell the OP's situation, were they warned, were they even asked to stop, etc. I would hope there would be a warning for something as minor as t-bagging for a first offense of "harassment". T-bagging is pretty childish, I admit. When I was younger and actually tried in PVP I did engage in goading. It is meant as a way to build rivalry and encourage the opponent to try harder to retaliate. It is kind of the heart of PVP. Personally I don't even really try too hard in PVP and just am there for the EXP bonus and AP.

Elsonso

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

My guildmates and friends tbag in a friendly way. They even have an addon for it.

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1976-TBagCounter.html

Give each other crap for dying in trials and such. People are way too sensitive and fragile these days. I fear that the next generation is going to be a bunch of babybacks.

Clearly they wouldn't be banned for such behaviour then. Friendly insults and actions are different to actions against someone who doesn't know you.

I don't know if I would go so far as to say they wouldn't get banned. We cannot say for sure that all in-game bans come from the complaint of one of the players involved. In theory, it could be an AI watching for repeat crouches, or some other player at distance, that does the report.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I am LITERALLY trying to help explain to you the origins of spamming crouch and what it's actual meaning is.

Its a way to rub salt in the wounds so to speak and has nothing to do with sexual harassment.

Honestly, while it is a form of victory dance, that does not mean that it is absent of a sexual association.

As for the actual meaning and history of the action, let's just say that story is suspect. It sound like something a kid would tell Mom after he got caught doing it while playing a video game.

Pixiepumpkin

Elsonso wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

My guildmates and friends tbag in a friendly way. They even have an addon for it.

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1976-TBagCounter.html

Give each other crap for dying in trials and such. People are way too sensitive and fragile these days. I fear that the next generation is going to be a bunch of babybacks.

Clearly they wouldn't be banned for such behaviour then. Friendly insults and actions are different to actions against someone who doesn't know you.

I don't know if I would go so far as to say they wouldn't get banned. We cannot say for sure that all in-game bans come from the complaint of one of the players involved. In theory, it could be an AI watching for repeat crouches, or some other player at distance, that does the report.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I am LITERALLY trying to help explain to you the origins of spamming crouch and what it's actual meaning is.

Its a way to rub salt in the wounds so to speak and has nothing to do with sexual harassment.

Honestly, while it is a form of victory dance, that does not mean that it is absent of a sexual association.

As for the actual meaning and history of the action, let's just say that story is suspect. It sound like something a kid would tell Mom after he got caught doing it while playing a video game.

I am in my 50's. Been playing games since Pong. I had my first handheld Space Invaders by Entex around 1980. Later on Atari 800XL, Atari1200XL, , Commodore 64, Atari 2600, Apple IIc, Apple IIe, Nintendo, Gameboy, Xbox, Playstation, you name it. I also coded my own games as a kid. Point being, I have been deeply involved with this hobby dating to the literal beginnings.
Been playing games from console to PC ever since then. In the past 25 years mostly MMORPGS, Survival Craft and FPS mostly (some moba).
Most of my content being PVP. In all that time, I never once, not ONCE had anyone suggest that T-Bagging was sexual in nature. I never took it as being sexual in nature. My friends that I played with, both strangers on the net and RL never took it as sexual in nature.

T-baggings name sake simply comes from the animation. The animation was first, not the name. It was the most effecive way to communicate to a dead player that you "got them" with the kill. Again, its salt in the wound based on the available commands to the player.

it was a more innocent time. People did not take offense easily. In the gaming community which was mostly male, T-bagging meant nothing more than rubbing salt into the dead players wounds.

It's roots were never based in any form of "sexual assault" or even sex based at all.

Those were my observations in 4 different states I live in from the literal west coast to the literal east coast (I lived on both coasts at different times in my life).

I simply never saw what is asserted on these forums. Anecdotal? But that works for both sides of the observation.

frogthroat

Elsonso wrote: »

Honestly, while it is a form of victory dance, that does not mean that it is absent of a sexual association.

As for the actual meaning and history of the action, let's just say that story is suspect. It sound like something a kid would tell Mom after he got caught doing it while playing a video game.

Association, yes, kinda, remotely. Meaning, no. There is a sexual act called teabagging and likely the name of this "I got you" move got it from said act. And that is as far as the similarities go. The purpose is in no way, shape or form sexual. It is humiliation, rubbing salt on wounds, dancing on someone's grave. The name of this video game move could as easily be called cheek slamming or butt rubbing, or any other. It just happens there was an already established term that is vaguely similar. Nothing more.

There was a time when real time chat and even voice chat was not available in games. There was no way to communicate with enemy players. No emotes, no other means. So this was the only way to "dance on their grave" so to speak. It's a neener-neener move. There is no deeper meaning.

I, personally, don't do it other than maybe to friends when goofing around with them and even then only if it's relevant to the current jokes in the conversation. But if someone does it to me in Cyro... I really don't care. If someone blows raspberries (which teabagging is) at me, it shows they are a bad winner. It tells more about them than about me.

Orbital78

LoL get a grip, t-bagging has nothing to do with unconsensual sex or sexual harassment. Perhaps harassment if you're super sensitive and get butt hurt easy.

RealLoveBVB

Orbital78 wrote: »

LoL get a grip, t-bagging has nothing to do with unconsensual sex or sexual harassment

Maybe you can enlighten everyone and explain the real nature of tea-bagging

abkam

I started reading this post, and then I came across this:

said no one ever wrote: »

teabagging is a virtual gesture to mimic oral sex on a corpse w/o consent. ..."

OMG... Please, God, let me return to my childhood in the '80s, please...

Orbital78

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

LoL get a grip, t-bagging has nothing to do with unconsensual sex or sexual harassment

Maybe you can enlighten everyone and explain the real nature of tea-bagging

if you read the previous posts, I did. Simple terms, promote rivalry and claim victory over an opponent. It has nothing to do with humping a corpse.

sans-culottes

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

Do you really think sexual harassment is possible in the Elder Scrolls Online?

Yes.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

My guildmates and friends tbag in a friendly way. They even have an addon for it.

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1976-TBagCounter.html

Give each other crap for dying in trials and such. People are way too sensitive and fragile these days. I fear that the next generation is going to be a bunch of babybacks.

Clearly they wouldn't be banned for such behaviour then. Friendly insults and actions are different to actions against someone who doesn't know you.

I don't know if I would go so far as to say they wouldn't get banned. We cannot say for sure that all in-game bans come from the complaint of one of the players involved. In theory, it could be an AI watching for repeat crouches, or some other player at distance, that does the report.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I am LITERALLY trying to help explain to you the origins of spamming crouch and what it's actual meaning is.

Its a way to rub salt in the wounds so to speak and has nothing to do with sexual harassment.

Honestly, while it is a form of victory dance, that does not mean that it is absent of a sexual association.

As for the actual meaning and history of the action, let's just say that story is suspect. It sound like something a kid would tell Mom after he got caught doing it while playing a video game.

I am in my 50's. Been playing games since Pong. I had my first handheld Space Invaders by Entex around 1980. Later on Atari 800XL, Atari1200XL, , Commodore 64, Atari 2600, Apple IIc, Apple IIe, Nintendo, Gameboy, Xbox, Playstation, you name it. I also coded my own games as a kid. Point being, I have been deeply involved with this hobby dating to the literal beginnings.
Been playing games from console to PC ever since then. In the past 25 years mostly MMORPGS, Survival Craft and FPS mostly (some moba).
Most of my content being PVP. In all that time, I never once, not ONCE had anyone suggest that T-Bagging was sexual in nature. I never took it as being sexual in nature. My friends that I played with, both strangers on the net and RL never took it as sexual in nature.

T-baggings name sake simply comes from the animation. The animation was first, not the name. It was the most effecive way to communicate to a dead player that you "got them" with the kill. Again, its salt in the wound based on the available commands to the player.

it was a more innocent time. People did not take offense easily. In the gaming community which was mostly male, T-bagging meant nothing more than rubbing salt into the dead players wounds.

It's roots were never based in any form of "sexual assault" or even sex based at all.

Those were my observations in 4 different states I live in from the literal west coast to the literal east coast (I lived on both coasts at different times in my life).

I simply never saw what is asserted on these forums. Anecdotal? But that works for both sides of the observation.

@Pixiepumpkin, appreciate the context—sincerely. But if anything, your account only confirms that the gesture has always depended on an unspoken mimetic function. That’s the part your retrospective historical framing seems to sidestep.

Whether or not anyone in your early gaming circles “took it” sexually doesn’t really address the core issue, which is what the gesture represents, and what its signification does to someone on the receiving end. Its vulgar name didn’t arise from nowhere. It wasn’t labeled “t-bagging” [sic] after the fact as a coincidence. It reflects the underlying fantasy that gives the act its affective charge: domination expressed through a pantomime of enforced intimacy, of humiliation, of power pressed against unwilling flesh.

This is why insisting that “no one I knew thought it was sexual” doesn’t resolve anything. The gesture itself precedes your intentions. You can disavow its implications, but the form still carries them.

And this is why the analogy to “rubbing salt in the wound” also fails. Salt isn’t mimetic. Salt doesn’t mimic an act that would, in any other context, constitute assault. “Rubbing salt” is symbolic aggression. Crouch-spamming over a corpse is symbolic violation. The difference matters.

At a certain point, the history of your gaming resume—however extensive—doesn’t grant immunity from critique. In fact, it might make the refusal to re-evaluate long-standing norms even more telling.

It was “a more innocent time,” you say. But maybe the reason it felt innocent is because the gesture was always allowed to pass without being spoken aloud—without ever having to confront what it actually was.

Now we are.

RealLoveBVB

Orbital78 wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

LoL get a grip, t-bagging has nothing to do with unconsensual sex or sexual harassment

Maybe you can enlighten everyone and explain the real nature of tea-bagging

if you read the previous posts, I did. Simple terms, promote rivalry and claim victory over an opponent. It has nothing to do with humping a corpse.

Promote rivalry and claim victory... I watch a lot of football and boxing matches... I've never saw someone kneeing over an opponent and dipping their balls in the opponents face.