Any Act with the INTENT to Cause Distress is a Bannable Offense

Sn00pyFreshh

Hello,

Since ZOS TOS and Code of Conduct are not super clear on the matter, I would like to get feedback from the community at large regarding harassment as outlined in a response I recently received in a ticket I submitted after getting a temporary ban for crouching on someone's body in PVP (commonly referred to as "teabagging", but I had no idea what this was and was completely stupified when I was banned for it). As most of us are currently aware, players are getting banned left and right with the justification that harassment was alleged by the accusee. When I asked ZOS to be more specific on what exactly constitutes a ban, I was met with a generic and unhelpful answer, shown below.






This is unsettling to me because there is no way one can prove objective intent to harass. If I kill the same player over and over again because they keep running up to me, is that harassment? If I troll ball groups with siege and immobolizations with the intent to cause them distress because I don't like them, is that harassment? If i place siege or emote over a dead player's body, is this harassment? Where is the line? I think these bans overall are a little ridiculous and I would like more transparency. What do you think?

Thanks all! Have a great day! Looking forward to a nice and productive discussion.

Cheers,
Snoop

Rohamad_Ali

IDK. With everyone so easily offended these days, I don't do any celebrations or jesters. Just kill and move on.

said no one ever

teabagging is a virtual gesture to mimic oral sex on a corpse w/o consent. at least thats how i understand it. is that clear enough?

Elvenheart

I do have to ask just because I’m curious. Since you had never heard of teabagging and had no idea what it was, what was your intention for crouching over a dead player’s body?

Heren

Elvenheart wrote: »

I do have to ask just because I’m curious. Since you had never heard of teabagging and had no idea what it was, what was your intention for crouching over a dead player’s body?

Herd mentality maybe. But still, one would guess this behaviour don't really seem to be respectful and such.

AlwaysDancing

This thread causes me distress. Was that intended?

ajkb78

Elvenheart wrote: »

I do have to ask just because I’m curious. Since you had never heard of teabagging and had no idea what it was, what was your intention for crouching over a dead player’s body?

It's reasonable enough to go into stealth near a dead player in order to lie in wait for their mate coming to rez them. Whether there's any tactical reason to go in and out and in and out of stealth... ;-)

If there's someone you really feel the need to send the "awww, I killed you, how sad..." message, there's always the "play tiny violin" emote. I mean, I can't think of any other reason they put that one in the game

Sn00pyFreshh

said no one ever wrote: »

teabagging is a virtual gesture to mimic oral sex on a corpse w/o consent. at least thats how i understand it. is that clear enough?

Hello,

Thank you for your reply! I can most certainly promise you that I did not intend to perform oral sex on a corpse without consent, especially since there are no genitalia on ESO characters and also because I was not near the player's mouth, simply crouching right next to them. I think it's absolutely absurd and aborrhent that you might even consider that was going through my mind, especially in a video game? Either way, you're missing the point. Any action with the intent to cause harassment is a bannable offense. What do you think of the other questions I posited? Do you think those other situations should be bannable?

Have a great day!
- Snoop

Sn00pyFreshh

Elvenheart wrote: »

I do have to ask just because I’m curious. Since you had never heard of teabagging and had no idea what it was, what was your intention for crouching over a dead player’s body?

Hello,

Well it certainly wasn't intended to be sexual harassment as another commenter pointed out (how is this even possible on a video game?) Rather, I meant it as a rather friendly and competitive gesture - the same point I'd be trying to get across with the "hooray!" emote. However, now that I know that ZOS truly intends to make this a bannable offense, I'll be sure never to do it again.

Regardless, we have strayed from the main point of the post. What do you think of the other questions I posited? Do you think those other situations should be bannable?

Cheers!
- Snoop

Sn00pyFreshh

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

IDK. With everyone so easily offended these days, I don't do any celebrations or jesters. Just kill and move on.

I tend to agree with you, it's simply better to play it safe than sorry. However, I love the competitive aspect that ESO pvp brings out, and it's a shame I can't even use the plethora of emotes available to me in game without the fear of it being seen as intent to harass someone after I kill them!

Sn00pyFreshh

ajkb78 wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

I do have to ask just because I’m curious. Since you had never heard of teabagging and had no idea what it was, what was your intention for crouching over a dead player’s body?

It's reasonable enough to go into stealth near a dead player in order to lie in wait for their mate coming to rez them. Whether there's any tactical reason to go in and out and in and out of stealth... ;-)

If there's someone you really feel the need to send the "awww, I killed you, how sad..." message, there's always the "play tiny violin" emote. I mean, I can't think of any other reason they put that one in the game

But, even in this sense, you are waiting in stealth with the intent to harass the player trying to resurrect their friend, no? Should this be bannable according to ZOS' response? Food for thought!

ajkb78

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

I do have to ask just because I’m curious. Since you had never heard of teabagging and had no idea what it was, what was your intention for crouching over a dead player’s body?

It's reasonable enough to go into stealth near a dead player in order to lie in wait for their mate coming to rez them. Whether there's any tactical reason to go in and out and in and out of stealth... ;-)

If there's someone you really feel the need to send the "awww, I killed you, how sad..." message, there's always the "play tiny violin" emote. I mean, I can't think of any other reason they put that one in the game

But, even in this sense, you are waiting in stealth with the intent to harass the player trying to resurrect their friend, no? Should this be bannable according to ZOS' response? Food for thought!

I hope your tongue is firmly in your cheek but it's sometimes difficult to know these days... I'm waiting in stealth to kill the enemy - playing PvP with the tools ZoS gave us. If killing enemy players in PVP is harassment then they probably need to remove the game mode!

Sn00pyFreshh

ajkb78 wrote: »

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

I do have to ask just because I’m curious. Since you had never heard of teabagging and had no idea what it was, what was your intention for crouching over a dead player’s body?

It's reasonable enough to go into stealth near a dead player in order to lie in wait for their mate coming to rez them. Whether there's any tactical reason to go in and out and in and out of stealth... ;-)

If there's someone you really feel the need to send the "awww, I killed you, how sad..." message, there's always the "play tiny violin" emote. I mean, I can't think of any other reason they put that one in the game

But, even in this sense, you are waiting in stealth with the intent to harass the player trying to resurrect their friend, no? Should this be bannable according to ZOS' response? Food for thought!

I hope your tongue is firmly in your cheek but it's sometimes difficult to know these days... I'm waiting in stealth to kill the enemy - playing PvP with the tools ZoS gave us. If killing enemy players in PVP is harassment then they probably need to remove the game mode!

You raise an excellent point! It's very difficult to discern what exactly portends "intent to harass" based on ZOS' generic reply and lack of transparency on the matter.

Sn00pyFreshh

Heren wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

I do have to ask just because I’m curious. Since you had never heard of teabagging and had no idea what it was, what was your intention for crouching over a dead player’s body?

Herd mentality maybe. But still, one would guess this behaviour don't really seem to be respectful and such.

I wouldn't consider shooting a meteor from outer space and then radiant oppression spamming me to be respectful. Nor would I consider getting blown up by a fire ballista bolt to be respectful and such. Should this still be bannable if the attacker intended to harass me by killing me because they were super competitive?

SxFurey

Don't play coy. You knew what t-bagging was yet you still do it and continued to do it even when the person told you to stop. That's what got you the ban.

whitecrow

Elvenheart wrote: »

I do have to ask just because I’m curious. Since you had never heard of teabagging and had no idea what it was, what was your intention for crouching over a dead player’s body?

Maybe he just thought it would be funny to stick his butt in someone's face.

JavaRen

So let me just check a few things so I am clear: you've been playing for 9.5 years and got a t-bagging ban without having had any idea that your actions may have been out of line?

Really?

Rohamad_Ali

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

IDK. With everyone so easily offended these days, I don't do any celebrations or jesters. Just kill and move on.

I tend to agree with you, it's simply better to play it safe than sorry. However, I love the competitive aspect that ESO pvp brings out, and it's a shame I can't even use the plethora of emotes available to me in game without the fear of it being seen as intent to harass someone after I kill them!

This is true. Knowing someone's true intentions can be difficult. With that said however, ZOS did so kindly make a purchasable "Tea Bagging" emote. I don't think using that is ban-able but expensive just for a victory pose. I have found bowing to my opponents doesn't seem to anger anyone so I give a quick /bow2 to good players I win against some times.

ArchMikem

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

(commonly referred to as "teabagging", but I had no idea what this was and was completely stupified when I was banned for it).

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

Rather, I meant it as a rather friendly and competitive gesture

I agree with the others that you knew exactly what you were doing.

Bagging is the action of crouching and standing repeatedly on top of a fallen player. It is an act of harassment because it's done to exert dominance and humiliation over another person. It has nothing to do with "friendly competition". The very act itself is the opposite of friendliness, and if the person you do this to tells you to stop, and you don't, it's a TOS violation.

darvaria

I'm delighted to see players actually getting banned for this. This problem has been documented and acknowledged by ZOS. OP you KNEW exactly what you were doing. I have heard of others getting banned for it too by reading on guild discords.

T Bagging and push ups over fallen player bodies are CLEAR intention acts of sexual harassment. The fact that ZOS has acknowledged this as a "problem" places the company in precarious legal position, when you acknowledge there is a "problem" but do nothing about it. There are 100's of posts complaining about this so there is more than enough documentation to substantiate this as a problem

ZOS should make "crouching" a simple dark cloud. NO animation or movement. Remove push ups. This is a liability in waiting. Run this by legal. If you don't have specialized legal at ZOS, could you not run this by legal at Microsoft? I am asking you most politely to REMOVE these 2 actions from the game. They are not worth the risk when they can be eliminated with 5 lines of code. There is nothing ZOS stands to gain from leaving this in the game.

Seeing this motivates me to report more.

katanagirl1

darvaria wrote: »

I'm delighted to see players actually getting banned for this. This problem has been documented and acknowledged by ZOS. OP you KNEW exactly what you were doing. I have heard of others getting banned for it too by reading on guild discords.

T Bagging and push ups over fallen player bodies are CLEAR intention acts of sexual harassment. The fact that ZOS has acknowledged this as a "problem" places the company in precarious legal position, when you acknowledge there is a "problem" but do nothing about it. There are 100's of posts complaining about this so there is more than enough documentation to substantiate this as a problem

ZOS should make "crouching" a simple dark cloud. NO animation or movement. Remove push ups. This is a liability in waiting. Run this by legal. If you don't have specialized legal at ZOS, could you not run this by legal at Microsoft? I am asking you most politely to REMOVE these 2 actions from the game. They are not worth the risk when they can be eliminated with 5 lines of code. There is nothing ZOS stands to gain from leaving this in the game.

Seeing this motivates me to report more.

You’ve posted this before.

I don’t like tbagging, but PvE nightblades crouch to steal and use Blade of Woe and a cloud around them would make it hard to loot containers or do anything nightblade-y or thieving successfully.

You can’t do anything in PvP for crouching that would not have a negative effect on PvE.

Credible_Joe

I remember reading somewhere that harassment is qualified when you ignore someone's clear and direct request to stop something they consider harassment, including teabagging, as well as mud-balls, snowballs, other emotes, text spam, invite spam, etc. And, obviously, straight up hate-speech and trash talk automatically qualifies.

For the life of me I can't find language to that effect in the TOS. @ZOS_Kevin , was that ever a thing?

wolfie1.0.

In all my years of play. I have never needed to enter stealth once right over another players body, much less repeatedly, which is the actual act involved. It is not a friendly gesture, it never has been in ANY game. It's not a competitive one. It's one that is designed to imply a sexual act at its worst and provoke anger at its best. Neither of which are good for the community.

Feel free to disagree with me. That's fine whatever works. I feel a suspension is warranted and honestly ZOS is pretty strict about how they seem to enforce it. Often they want specific information that takes some effort to provide to the point that if they issue a ban for something like this then it's warranted.

darvaria

YES, I have posted this before. While I appreciate seeing players actually banned for it, my point is WHY leave this in game? You can make crouching just a black cloud with NO movement. ZOS should not "enable" implied sexual harassment.

I keep posting this because it is a liability in waiting to leave this in the game. AND it adds no value to the game. You can stealth without crouching, since it is apparent there is a percentage of the player base that can't seem to show simple respect.

said no one ever

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

said no one ever wrote: »

teabagging is a virtual gesture to mimic oral sex on a corpse w/o consent. at least thats how i understand it. is that clear enough?

Hello,

Thank you for your reply! I can most certainly promise you that I did not intend to perform oral sex on a corpse without consent, especially since there are no genitalia on ESO characters and also because I was not near the player's mouth, simply crouching right next to them. I think it's absolutely absurd and aborrhent that you might even consider that was going through my mind, especially in a video game? Either way, you're missing the point. Any action with the intent to cause harassment is a bannable offense. What do you think of the other questions I posited? Do you think those other situations should be bannable?

Have a great day!
- Snoop

yah bno one's gonna believe that. not me and def not zos.

Sn00pyFreshh

Hi all,

said no one ever wrote: »

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

said no one ever wrote: »

teabagging is a virtual gesture to mimic oral sex on a corpse w/o consent. at least thats how i understand it. is that clear enough?

Hello,

Thank you for your reply! I can most certainly promise you that I did not intend to perform oral sex on a corpse without consent, especially since there are no genitalia on ESO characters and also because I was not near the player's mouth, simply crouching right next to them. I think it's absolutely absurd and aborrhent that you might even consider that was going through my mind, especially in a video game? Either way, you're missing the point. Any action with the intent to cause harassment is a bannable offense. What do you think of the other questions I posited? Do you think those other situations should be bannable?

Have a great day!
- Snoop

yah bno one's gonna believe that. not me and def not zos.

Do you really think sexual harassment is possible in the Elder Scrolls Online? Would it make a difference if i crouched at their feet? A meter or two away from them? I find this hard to defend from your standpoint.

Sn00pyFreshh

The point of the post was to direct attention to the specific language used in the agent's response, "Any act of intentionally harassing another player with the intent to cause distress". How can you prove intent? Where is the line? Can I get banned for trolling a ball group with negates if my intent was indeed to harass them?

said no one ever

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

Hi all,

said no one ever wrote: »

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

said no one ever wrote: »

teabagging is a virtual gesture to mimic oral sex on a corpse w/o consent. at least thats how i understand it. is that clear enough?

Hello,

Thank you for your reply! I can most certainly promise you that I did not intend to perform oral sex on a corpse without consent, especially since there are no genitalia on ESO characters and also because I was not near the player's mouth, simply crouching right next to them. I think it's absolutely absurd and aborrhent that you might even consider that was going through my mind, especially in a video game? Either way, you're missing the point. Any action with the intent to cause harassment is a bannable offense. What do you think of the other questions I posited? Do you think those other situations should be bannable?

Have a great day!
- Snoop

yah bno one's gonna believe that. not me and def not zos.

Do you really think sexual harassment is possible in the Elder Scrolls Online? Would it make a difference if i crouched at their feet? A meter or two away from them? I find this hard to defend from your standpoint.

i dont care if you like it. you got banned from play for harassing a player. zos's game, zos's rules. coming to the forum looking for sympathy isnt gonna get you much.

Sn00pyFreshh

said no one ever wrote: »

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

Hi all,

said no one ever wrote: »

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

said no one ever wrote: »

teabagging is a virtual gesture to mimic oral sex on a corpse w/o consent. at least thats how i understand it. is that clear enough?

Hello,

Thank you for your reply! I can most certainly promise you that I did not intend to perform oral sex on a corpse without consent, especially since there are no genitalia on ESO characters and also because I was not near the player's mouth, simply crouching right next to them. I think it's absolutely absurd and aborrhent that you might even consider that was going through my mind, especially in a video game? Either way, you're missing the point. Any action with the intent to cause harassment is a bannable offense. What do you think of the other questions I posited? Do you think those other situations should be bannable?

Have a great day!
- Snoop

yah bno one's gonna believe that. not me and def not zos.

Do you really think sexual harassment is possible in the Elder Scrolls Online? Would it make a difference if i crouched at their feet? A meter or two away from them? I find this hard to defend from your standpoint.

i dont care if you like it. you got banned from play for harassing a player. zos's game, zos's rules. coming to the forum looking for sympathy isnt gonna get you much.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, not looking for sympathy. I'm not permanently banned, it was a 72-hour stint. I'm simply wanting to garner a productive discussion on the grey area of "intent to harass".

SilverBride

Sn00pyFreshh wrote: »

Do you really think sexual harassment is possible in the Elder Scrolls Online?

Sexual harassment is possible anywhere.

JavaRen

One test when considering if something is harassment or not is tactical vslue, meaning if an action serves a tactical purpose it is unlikely to be harassment.

So, what is the tactical value in entering and leaving stealth on top of a dead body?