The Great ESO Brain Drain

Vaqual

Dragonnord wrote: »

TESO became a kid's game because new and casual players asked for all kind of nerfs.

ZOS listened and nerfed every aspect of the game. Result? Endgamers left.

Can't complain because what TESO is now is the result of what people asked for.
 

At first I thought to dismiss your post because it sounded like an unsubstantiated claim. Then I saw the emboldened part and I thought: "These are bold letters, so it has to be right". I am not exactly sure what I should conclude now.

Do we need more buffs? Buff Streak, buff warden heals, buff the lags and Tripot-costs?

Or do we need less listening from ZOS?

Jokes aside, I also despise the oversimplification of games as we see it across many genres these days. If a game is developed with a clear concept and mechanics have been thoroughly play-tested by the designers themselves, this should not happen. Players who can not beat every challenge shouldn't clamour for nerfs, but rather consider themselves lucky that there are challenges left to be conquered. Such nerfs should not be conflated with important balancing tweaks. An even playing field is essential for the game to feel rewarding. If you beat others with overpowered tools you wont find long term satisfaction, just as the game will frustrate you if the odds are entirely stacked against you. If there is a verifiable and objective issue it should be pointed out and discussed by the community and improved by ZOS.

Labeling anyone as "endgamer" and using their departure or dissatisfaction as an argument is exactly the wrong way to make a point.

But I agree, if that was an intended part of your message, trivializing the most challenging parts of the game for those who can't beat it is a complete waste, as it takes away from those who seek a challenge, while there is more than enough easy content available. It doesn't take a streamer or self-declared "endgamer" to realize this though.

(edited 2 bad typos)

moderatelyfatman

Vaqual wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

TESO became a kid's game because new and casual players asked for all kind of nerfs.

ZOS listened and nerfed every aspect of the game. Result? Endgamers left.

Can't complain because what TESO is now is the result of what people asked for.
 

At first I thought to dismiss your post because it sounded like an unsubstantiated claim. Then I saw the emboldened part and I thought: "These are bold letters, so it has to be right". I am not exactly sure what I should conclude now.

Do we need more buffs? Buff Streak, buff warden heals, buff the lags and Tripot-costs?

Or do we need less listening from ZOS?

Jokes aside, I also despise the oversimplification of games as we see it across many genres these days. If a game is developed with a clear concept and mechanics have been thoroughly play-tested by the designers themselves, this should not happen. Players who can not beat every challenge shouldn't clamour for nerfs, but rather consider themselves lucky that there are challenges left to be conquered. Such nerfs should not be conflated with important balancing tweaks. An even playing field is essential for the game to feel rewarding. If you beat others with overpowered tools you wont find long term satisfaction, just as the game will frustrate you if the odds are entirely stacked against you. If there is a verifiable and objective issue it should be pointed and discussed out by the community and improved by ZOS.

Labeling anyone as "endgamer" and using their departure or dissatisfaction as an argument is exactly the wrong way to make a point.

But I agree, if that was an intended part of your message, trivializing the most challenging parts of the game those who can't beat it is a complete waste, as it takes away from those who seek a challenge, while there is more than enough easy content available. It doesn't take a streamer or self-declared "endgamer" to realize this though.

I think the hallmark of a good game can be described from chess: "Easy to learn, a lifetime to master."

Arunei

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I imagine this will be an unpopular opinion, but...

Maybe losing creators of "high-end" builds might not be such a bad thing? Maybe there's too much copying of other players' builds without understanding the whys and whynots? If someone understands the whys and whynots, shouldn't they be able to come up with their own "high-end" builds?

Not everyone wants to theorycraft and not everyone's good at it. Theorycrafting takes a lot of time, knowledge, and math. If you're starting from nothing and going in completely blind then you're going to end up with a whole lot of builds that do 60k or less dps as a damage dealer, or do not effectively buff/debuff as a support.

In order to be most effective you need to understand the build, yes. Personally, I found that making my own builds helped with my effectiveness a lot. But I still use a lot of information from other people to build.

Since when has 60k for DPS not been enough for most Vet mode Dungeons? People who can theorycraft a build that solidly sustains that aren't bad at doing so; that's a solid build.

I theorycraft builds a lot, because I don't like running metas typically. I've had builds that sit comfortably in the 50-60k range.

To answer OP's question, the only real thing we can do to counter experienced players leaving the game is to replace them ourselves. So many people will ignore someone asking a question in zone, or asking for help in general. We as a community need to be more willing to actually TEACH newer or less experienced players, instead of constantly expecting others to do it. We need to stop falling victim to the bystander effect. We need to share our own knowledge either in-game or on forums, social media, in videos or podcasts, and so on.

dk_dunkirk

Arunei wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I imagine this will be an unpopular opinion, but...

Maybe losing creators of "high-end" builds might not be such a bad thing? Maybe there's too much copying of other players' builds without understanding the whys and whynots? If someone understands the whys and whynots, shouldn't they be able to come up with their own "high-end" builds?

Not everyone wants to theorycraft and not everyone's good at it. Theorycrafting takes a lot of time, knowledge, and math. If you're starting from nothing and going in completely blind then you're going to end up with a whole lot of builds that do 60k or less dps as a damage dealer, or do not effectively buff/debuff as a support.

In order to be most effective you need to understand the build, yes. Personally, I found that making my own builds helped with my effectiveness a lot. But I still use a lot of information from other people to build.

Since when has 60k for DPS not been enough for most Vet mode Dungeons? People who can theorycraft a build that solidly sustains that aren't bad at doing so; that's a solid build.

I theorycraft builds a lot, because I don't like running metas typically. I've had builds that sit comfortably in the 50-60k range.

To answer OP's question, the only real thing we can do to counter experienced players leaving the game is to replace them ourselves. So many people will ignore someone asking a question in zone, or asking for help in general. We as a community need to be more willing to actually TEACH newer or less experienced players, instead of constantly expecting others to do it. We need to stop falling victim to the bystander effect. We need to share our own knowledge either in-game or on forums, social media, in videos or podcasts, and so on.

I tried "going back" to non-meta builds, and the difference makes it un-fun to me. They've tweaked the game to make 100K builds almost the norm or even minimum, and anything less just makes it feel like a slog. Like, oh, this is fun, seeing this effect or whatever, but this fight is taking twice as long as it normally does. Yawn.

dk_dunkirk

Dragonnord wrote: »

TESO became a kid's game because new and casual players asked for all kind of nerfs.

ZOS listened and nerfed every aspect of the game. Result? Endgamers left.

Can't complain because what TESO is now is the result of what people asked for.
 

What nerfs do you think ZOS implemented because of player feedback?

Erickson9610

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

TESO became a kid's game because new and casual players asked for all kind of nerfs.

ZOS listened and nerfed every aspect of the game. Result? Endgamers left.

Can't complain because what TESO is now is the result of what people asked for.
 

What nerfs do you think ZOS implemented because of player feedback?

The Undeath nerf is an obvious candidate. People have been asking for it to be nerfed for years!

Sakiri

Renato90085 wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

TESO became a kid's game because new and casual players asked for all kind of nerfs.

ZOS listened and nerfed every aspect of the game. Result? Endgamers left.

Can't complain because what TESO is now is the result of what people asked for.
 

i dont think so newplayer want nerf
The newplayer I've met in the past two years all think that the game is overly simple and boring
most leave within 3 months.....

When I started the game, my husband could not complete the main story because it was too hard.

Can bet your butt he wasn't the only one.

Sakiri

Arunei wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I imagine this will be an unpopular opinion, but...

Maybe losing creators of "high-end" builds might not be such a bad thing? Maybe there's too much copying of other players' builds without understanding the whys and whynots? If someone understands the whys and whynots, shouldn't they be able to come up with their own "high-end" builds?

Not everyone wants to theorycraft and not everyone's good at it. Theorycrafting takes a lot of time, knowledge, and math. If you're starting from nothing and going in completely blind then you're going to end up with a whole lot of builds that do 60k or less dps as a damage dealer, or do not effectively buff/debuff as a support.

In order to be most effective you need to understand the build, yes. Personally, I found that making my own builds helped with my effectiveness a lot. But I still use a lot of information from other people to build.

Since when has 60k for DPS not been enough for most Vet mode Dungeons? People who can theorycraft a build that solidly sustains that aren't bad at doing so; that's a solid build.

I theorycraft builds a lot, because I don't like running metas typically. I've had builds that sit comfortably in the 50-60k range.

To answer OP's question, the only real thing we can do to counter experienced players leaving the game is to replace them ourselves. So many people will ignore someone asking a question in zone, or asking for help in general. We as a community need to be more willing to actually TEACH newer or less experienced players, instead of constantly expecting others to do it. We need to stop falling victim to the bystander effect. We need to share our own knowledge either in-game or on forums, social media, in videos or podcasts, and so on.

60k is parse dps.

60k parse dps doesn't equate to 60k in a vet dungeon.

And you ain't getting trifectas done in a lot of the DLC ones with two dps that parse only 60k.

I parse 100k. You know what my in content dps is? If the stars align and I don't have to mechanics, about half of that. I'd wager the average player gets roughly the same dropoff from their parse numbers.

Desiato

In a game as ridiculously easy as 99.9% of the content is in eso, most players have absolutely no need for theorycrafters whatsoever.

It's very much play how you want.

We already know the pvp and trial communities have been pretty small for many years. Obviously they haven't been big enough to financially induce content creators to play eso.

Plus look at the gameplay. Flail flail beam. Not particularly entertaining to play, less entertaining to watch.

LPapirius

manukartofanu wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Or, as is usually the case with every MMO or any online game ever in existence.. those very players/content creators just move on cuz life takes them in a different direction. Sometimes it's off to the next newest game/name in the industry. Sometimes it's other life events, like marriage, job promotion, children (college graduation is usually a biggie). And quite often, it's simply burnout/boredom.

In my experience, if it's due to lack of developer support, then those players/creators would have disappeared much much sooner.

The good news, is that quite often a new up and comer steps into the ring.

Content creators are people who spend thousands of hours studying a game. Yes, they study the game, not just play it. Viewers often don’t realize how much work actually goes on behind the scenes to create content, which leads to the false impression that switching to another game is something that can be done easily due to life circumstances—like changing jobs. But that’s not how it works. If such a change does happen due to life circumstances, it’s definitely not because of something like getting married or having a child. It would have to be something much more serious, like a catastrophic event resulting in a long and painful recovery or a battle for survival against a life-threatening illness.

And yes, out of boredom, someone might simply stop creating content. But if you see someone explaining why they’re leaving and giving their reasons, that’s a different story. For these people, this is a passion. They invest a huge amount of their time, and often money, into creating content for ESO. At some point, they may just become disillusioned with the state of things.

Creating content for ESO purely for money doesn’t make sense. People who create here do so out of a genuine passion for the game.

Anyone else remember the Nefas video about how U35 was resulting in their shutting down of the trials teaching guild he was part of? Anyone else remember how so many posters on this forum said it was no big loss, that streamers and content creators don't matter?

Now look where were at. Just as some of us pointed out at the time, now nobodies putting out how to's for the games toughest content. There are far fewer end game players to teach the newer players what to do and how to manage their builds.

We saw this coming before U35 dropped and we spoke out vociferously on this forum about what would happen over time if ZOS stayed on the path they're on.

If you're wondering how we got here, just go to youtube and search "nefas U35". This was a preventable situation.

BasP

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

TESO became a kid's game because new and casual players asked for all kind of nerfs.

ZOS listened and nerfed every aspect of the game. Result? Endgamers left.

Can't complain because what TESO is now is the result of what people asked for.
 

What nerfs do you think ZOS implemented because of player feedback?

I believe that U35 was, in part, the result of player feedback for example.

• Some players thought that ESO's combat was too difficult and inaccessible. Hence, the duration of (most) buffs, debuffs and DOTs were increased, which simplified combat but made rotations arguably more boring. (Most) DOTs also did less damage per second due to this change.
• Some players complained about the importance of Light Attack weaving - LA's were also nerfed, and on top of that Empower was changed to only buff Heavy Attacks.

Renato90085

Sakiri wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

TESO became a kid's game because new and casual players asked for all kind of nerfs.

ZOS listened and nerfed every aspect of the game. Result? Endgamers left.

Can't complain because what TESO is now is the result of what people asked for.
 

i dont think so newplayer want nerf
The newplayer I've met in the past two years all think that the game is overly simple and boring
most leave within 3 months.....

When I started the game, my husband could not complete the main story because it was too hard.

Can bet your butt he wasn't the only one.

um,what next?
ya ,when i am new(2018),I die 4 time in my first rnd, because eso it my first mmorpg ...
I just talk about my exp,this 2 year I help so many newplayer start game and never see anyone tell me "game too hard so need nerf"

Attorneyatlawl

Sakiri wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

TESO became a kid's game because new and casual players asked for all kind of nerfs.

ZOS listened and nerfed every aspect of the game. Result? Endgamers left.

Can't complain because what TESO is now is the result of what people asked for.
 

i dont think so newplayer want nerf
The newplayer I've met in the past two years all think that the game is overly simple and boring
most leave within 3 months.....

When I started the game, my husband could not complete the main story because it was too hard.

Can bet your butt he wasn't the only one.

You're talking about 2013 beta judging by your profile, while he's talking 2018. The 2013 beta that introduced the mannimarco fight was legitimately tough, I one shotted it at level 42 but many in my guild couldn't complete it at level 50 even. That was where he had 60k hp which was boss level at that time.

You're not going to find many people complaining about it nowadays after a million changes to it and general dumbing down of the game's solo difficulty. I can only imagine the brain drain at this point given it already began back when I left.

Soarora

Arunei wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I imagine this will be an unpopular opinion, but...

Maybe losing creators of "high-end" builds might not be such a bad thing? Maybe there's too much copying of other players' builds without understanding the whys and whynots? If someone understands the whys and whynots, shouldn't they be able to come up with their own "high-end" builds?

Not everyone wants to theorycraft and not everyone's good at it. Theorycrafting takes a lot of time, knowledge, and math. If you're starting from nothing and going in completely blind then you're going to end up with a whole lot of builds that do 60k or less dps as a damage dealer, or do not effectively buff/debuff as a support.

In order to be most effective you need to understand the build, yes. Personally, I found that making my own builds helped with my effectiveness a lot. But I still use a lot of information from other people to build.

Since when has 60k for DPS not been enough for most Vet mode Dungeons? People who can theorycraft a build that solidly sustains that aren't bad at doing so; that's a solid build.

I theorycraft builds a lot, because I don't like running metas typically. I've had builds that sit comfortably in the 50-60k range.

To answer OP's question, the only real thing we can do to counter experienced players leaving the game is to replace them ourselves. So many people will ignore someone asking a question in zone, or asking for help in general. We as a community need to be more willing to actually TEACH newer or less experienced players, instead of constantly expecting others to do it. We need to stop falling victim to the bystander effect. We need to share our own knowledge either in-game or on forums, social media, in videos or podcasts, and so on.

60k or less dps is not a high end build. And like Sakiri said, parse dps is very different than content dps. Dungeons are also known for allowing a lot of build flexibility, even in endgame if your build isn’t flat out terrible then most people don’t really care what you run. Only time things really get optimized is if you’re going for a full burn trifecta, which you don’t need to do at all. Trial endgame on the other hand, you are NOT getting into DLC HMs with a 60k dps build. A lot of places have requirements up to 95-110k. The DPS checks are higher, theres more people to mess up, and mechanics can be more complex.
And not liking meta isn’t really an excuse to have bad damage as a pure damage dealer because there’s ways to make off-meta builds that actually do 80k+ DPS (Like my frost warden before it was buffed & my bleed nightblade, which I both got to around 95k dps). ZOS really should go buff some sad excuses for sets that could be used in thematic builds though, like the conal lightning set from DoM.

sarahthes

Desiato wrote: »

In a game as ridiculously easy as 99.9% of the content is in eso, most players have absolutely no need for theorycrafters whatsoever.

It's very much play how you want.

We already know the pvp and trial communities have been pretty small for many years. Obviously they haven't been big enough to financially induce content creators to play eso.

Plus look at the gameplay. Flail flail beam. Not particularly entertaining to play, less entertaining to watch.

It's flail-beam now with banner.

alpha_synuclein

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

ESO has lost a lot of content creators in the past three years, beginning with that infamous patch we will not name.

Voldem... U35
Name it.
Shame it.
Then repeat.
So that the evil shall never rise again xd

On a serious note though, many players take the "play the way you want" slogan to the letter and they don't take their builds from anywhere. For the vast majority of the game they don't need to. So the demand for good info is already rather low. If endgame gets decimated there is noone to talk to.

Especially when it comes to videos showcasing builds that are meant to be played as a part of optimized group. The fact that high end PVE group content has nothing to do with everyone doing their own things seems to be very deterrent to a lot of players. Hence the whole anti-meta attitude. And the realization that the harder content you do, the more your build need to be in sync with others in your team, often needs to come from other players, which add to the resistance.

On the other hand, the knowledge transfer within guilds seem to still be quite present. Especially within the endgame. Also, Discord took over the majority of player to player learning. At least on PC.

And how to stop the brain drain?
That's on ZOS. Stop turning ESO into a single player rpg and actually make efforts to rebuild the endgame that they've flipped on.

Vaqual

LPapirius wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Or, as is usually the case with every MMO or any online game ever in existence.. those very players/content creators just move on cuz life takes them in a different direction. Sometimes it's off to the next newest game/name in the industry. Sometimes it's other life events, like marriage, job promotion, children (college graduation is usually a biggie). And quite often, it's simply burnout/boredom.

In my experience, if it's due to lack of developer support, then those players/creators would have disappeared much much sooner.

The good news, is that quite often a new up and comer steps into the ring.

Content creators are people who spend thousands of hours studying a game. Yes, they study the game, not just play it. Viewers often don’t realize how much work actually goes on behind the scenes to create content, which leads to the false impression that switching to another game is something that can be done easily due to life circumstances—like changing jobs. But that’s not how it works. If such a change does happen due to life circumstances, it’s definitely not because of something like getting married or having a child. It would have to be something much more serious, like a catastrophic event resulting in a long and painful recovery or a battle for survival against a life-threatening illness.

And yes, out of boredom, someone might simply stop creating content. But if you see someone explaining why they’re leaving and giving their reasons, that’s a different story. For these people, this is a passion. They invest a huge amount of their time, and often money, into creating content for ESO. At some point, they may just become disillusioned with the state of things.

Creating content for ESO purely for money doesn’t make sense. People who create here do so out of a genuine passion for the game.

Anyone else remember the Nefas video about how U35 was resulting in their shutting down of the trials teaching guild he was part of? Anyone else remember how so many posters on this forum said it was no big loss, that streamers and content creators don't matter?

Now look where were at. Just as some of us pointed out at the time, now nobodies putting out how to's for the games toughest content. There are far fewer end game players to teach the newer players what to do and how to manage their builds.

We saw this coming before U35 dropped and we spoke out vociferously on this forum about what would happen over time if ZOS stayed on the path they're on.

If you're wondering how we got here, just go to youtube and search "nefas U35". This was a preventable situation.

Just as many forum users thought the same or agreed anyway on the flaws of U35. What kind of argument is this supposed to be.

Sakiri

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

TESO became a kid's game because new and casual players asked for all kind of nerfs.

ZOS listened and nerfed every aspect of the game. Result? Endgamers left.

Can't complain because what TESO is now is the result of what people asked for.
 

i dont think so newplayer want nerf
The newplayer I've met in the past two years all think that the game is overly simple and boring
most leave within 3 months.....

When I started the game, my husband could not complete the main story because it was too hard.

Can bet your butt he wasn't the only one.

You're talking about 2013 beta judging by your profile, while he's talking 2018. The 2013 beta that introduced the mannimarco fight was legitimately tough, I one shotted it at level 42 but many in my guild couldn't complete it at level 50 even. That was where he had 60k hp which was boss level at that time.

You're not going to find many people complaining about it nowadays after a million changes to it and general dumbing down of the game's solo difficulty. I can only imagine the brain drain at this point given it already began back when I left.

I'm talking about someone else. When he started. Which wasn't in beta. He played up til Morrowind, but never did the main quest line because it was too hard, even with tutorials I made. He couldn't grasp the concept of roll dodging bad stuff and blocking. He's used to other games where dodge is automatic and you just facetank hits.

I did mages and fighters guild finales at level 31. I made things HARDER for myself on purpose. Mannimarco was a cakewalk. My skill level did not equate that of everyone else though. I mean crap, I did Molag Bal on a bow sorc back when it was considered impossible on a sorc unless you backbarred a resto staff.

Arunei

I'm still trying to figure out when 60k wasn't considered good for VET Dungeons. I'm not talking about HM Trial Trifectas and stuff people lol, even back then that wasn't enough for that sort of content. You can still be an experienced player who knows a lot of mechanics and other things about the game even if your own builds don't hit 100k+.

Speaking of dungeons, that's another thing I think the community could maybe help with more. A lot of people want to rush through a dungeon, without bothering to stop and explain mechanics to newer people or people who are just not familiar with a given dungeon's bosses and how they work.

And then that leads us to people complaining that newer people don't know how to play the game. Well heck, how are people SUPPOSED to learn if people just want to burn bosses as fast as possible and never take the time to actually TEACH players things? How are tanks or healers supposed to learn when bosses die within five seconds? How are DPS supposed to figure out how to tweak their builds and other things beyond the base stuff the game throws at you in the tutorial when others care only about how fast a boss goes down rather than explaining how the boss works so these newer people can know how to proceed better?

If we want experience to continue to be passed to others, we need to be willing to be the ones to pass it on and not just go "Oh well I don't have time for it let someone else do it". That leads to the issue we have now, where many people have the thought of it being someone else's problem. When enough people feel that way it eventually becomes everyone's problem.

Soarora

Arunei wrote: »

I'm still trying to figure out when 60k wasn't considered good for VET Dungeons. I'm not talking about HM Trial Trifectas and stuff people lol, even back then that wasn't enough for that sort of content. You can still be an experienced player who knows a lot of mechanics and other things about the game even if your own builds don't hit 100k+.

Speaking of dungeons, that's another thing I think the community could maybe help with more. A lot of people want to rush through a dungeon, without bothering to stop and explain mechanics to newer people or people who are just not familiar with a given dungeon's bosses and how they work.

And then that leads us to people complaining that newer people don't know how to play the game. Well heck, how are people SUPPOSED to learn if people just want to burn bosses as fast as possible and never take the time to actually TEACH players things? How are tanks or healers supposed to learn when bosses die within five seconds? How are DPS supposed to figure out how to tweak their builds and other things beyond the base stuff the game throws at you in the tutorial when others care only about how fast a boss goes down rather than explaining how the boss works so these newer people can know how to proceed better?

If we want experience to continue to be passed to others, we need to be willing to be the ones to pass it on and not just go "Oh well I don't have time for it let someone else do it". That leads to the issue we have now, where many people have the thought of it being someone else's problem. When enough people feel that way it eventually becomes everyone's problem.

The original context was about high-end builds. No matter how you spin it, 60k dps is not a high-end DPS build. People do not need to nerf their own damage to help new players. In my experience, vet pugs are usually happy to explain mechanics IF someone asks.

I stopped explaining mechanics without being asked first because people who don't ask don't always listen anyways.

spartaxoxo

You can make your own guides, that's about it

fizzylu

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

When they dropped the subscription model and created the loot boxes and store, that was the signal we would end up here. More dedication goes into cosmetics then gameplay because profit always wins. Happens to all modern AAA mmo's eventually.

It's funny because I've been playing MMOs my entire life and the only one that I can see this really applying to is ESO, yet people here claim it's just an industry problem.

• WoW: 20 years running with the sub model, and even with the addition of more cosmetics/collectibles that can be bought with cash, the game still sees far more in-game that are earnable and regular sizeable content releases (some could even argue that over the years, expansions in this game have actually gotten bigger -- not smaller).
• FFXIV: also has a mandatory sub along with a cash shop yet similar to WoW, has more things that are made earnable within game and gets regular sizeable content updates+new features.
• New World: outside of box price(s), it's a truly f2p MMO with a cash shop.... but there has never been an influx of new cosmetics in the store to the point of making the players feel like there are more cash items than content to get through or gameplay features being added.
• BDO: another title more accurate to being a f2p MMO than ESO, also is well-known for it's monetization like ESO, and has a unique endgame experience.... and because of that, while there is a focus on the cash shop cosmetics, this game at least also pumps out things like new classes (what some would say is the main feature of this game) as if it's nobody's business.

And while it's not necessarily AAA, I'd like to mention Albion Online. A game that had a box price and ended up getting rid of it to be f2p. This did end up resulting in a cash shop, but once again like with New World, does not ever feel like it's getting more "content" added to it than the actual game and the world within it.

Honestly.... I would love for someone to actually give the name of a relatively successful MMO that saw a decrease in the amount and size of gameplay content updates and new features, but continuous amounts of cosmetics added to the cash shop -- because I know I have never seen another one and for some reason with statements like the quote above, one is never named.

moderatelyfatman

fizzylu wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

When they dropped the subscription model and created the loot boxes and store, that was the signal we would end up here. More dedication goes into cosmetics then gameplay because profit always wins. Happens to all modern AAA mmo's eventually.

It's funny because I've been playing MMOs my entire life and the only one that I can see this really applying to is ESO, yet people here claim it's just an industry problem.

• WoW: 20 years running with the sub model, and even with the addition of more cosmetics/collectibles that can be bought with cash, the game still sees far more in-game that are earnable and regular sizeable content releases (some could even argue that over the years, expansions in this game have actually gotten bigger -- not smaller).
• FFXIV: also has a mandatory sub along with a cash shop yet similar to WoW, has more things that are made earnable within game and gets regular sizeable content updates+new features.
• New World: outside of box price(s), it's a truly f2p MMO with a cash shop.... but there has never been an influx of new cosmetics in the store to the point of making the players feel like there are more cash items than content to get through or gameplay features being added.
• BDO: another title more accurate to being a f2p MMO than ESO, also is well-known for it's monetization like ESO, and has a unique endgame experience.... and because of that, while there is a focus on the cash shop cosmetics, this game at least also pumps out things like new classes (what some would say is the main feature of this game) as if it's nobody's business.

And while it's not necessarily AAA, I'd like to mention Albion Online. A game that had a box price and ended up getting rid of it to be f2p. This did end up resulting in a cash shop, but once again like with New World, does not ever feel like it's getting more "content" added to it than the actual game and the world within it.

Honestly.... I would love for someone to actually give the name of a relatively successful MMO that saw a decrease in the amount and size of gameplay content updates and new features, but continuous amounts of cosmetics added to the cash shop -- because I know I have never seen one and for some reason with statements like the quote above, one is never named.

I disagree with ESO not having a subscription model since ESO+ exists and is necessary for most people who are hardcore players. It was only a few years down the track when I had so many mats in the bag, spare storage toons and chests in my house that I was able to step away from ESO+ for prolonged periods.

For a true 'pay once, play forever' approach I'd refer to Guild Wars 2. I don't know about the financials but the game seems to be doing ok and is well maintained by the company, even with a sequel in the works.

I think each monetisation model works well as long as the customers are committed to the game. The GW2 model works better with players who are more casual while the monthly subscription model is better for year round players. ESO was doing well when they had a lot of long term players needing the crafting bag and extra bank space.

fizzylu

@moderatelyfatman
Oh, I fully agree about the "optional" sub in ESO. That's why I said New World is truly f2p outside of box prices and that BDO is more f2p with a one-time payment in comparison to ESO, haha.

I also agree with you on GW2. I didn't include it in my examples though since they do have slightly smaller updates than some other triple A titles, but unlike with ESO, they also charge less for their expansions and you can even get some of the story content free if you're playing during their release. And while they do have a cash shop with cosmetics rotated out and new ones added every now and then, it's nowhere near as much ESO has. Their gambling crates are not as predatory either, and most of the cosmetics aren't even in them.

Toanis

Arenanet struggled a bit in the past, but lately GW2 seems to be fine with a rather smart approach to battle passes:

Instead of blatantly telling you to buy an unlock for better rewards, they bundle it with the new expansions that are smaller than previous ones but bigger and more consistent than the the former "free for active players at release" season episodes.

They've done a lot right, over there, fluid action combat, huge scale encounters, and open world siege PVP are still far better than what ZOS did 2 years later. Virtual servers that don't go down for maintenance and on an update just separate players dependent on which game version they run, and a stable economy controlled by a gold vs. cash shop currency exchange.

What they don't do very well is what ESO stands out for: Storytelling. Avid MMO players that have no use for that blah blah stuff might want to give GW2 or BDO a try for a better combat experience (and hotter barbie dolls ofc).

Faulgor

manukartofanu wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Or, as is usually the case with every MMO or any online game ever in existence.. those very players/content creators just move on cuz life takes them in a different direction. Sometimes it's off to the next newest game/name in the industry. Sometimes it's other life events, like marriage, job promotion, children (college graduation is usually a biggie). And quite often, it's simply burnout/boredom.

In my experience, if it's due to lack of developer support, then those players/creators would have disappeared much much sooner.

The good news, is that quite often a new up and comer steps into the ring.

Content creators are people who spend thousands of hours studying a game. Yes, they study the game, not just play it. Viewers often don’t realize how much work actually goes on behind the scenes to create content, which leads to the false impression that switching to another game is something that can be done easily due to life circumstances—like changing jobs. But that’s not how it works. If such a change does happen due to life circumstances, it’s definitely not because of something like getting married or having a child. It would have to be something much more serious, like a catastrophic event resulting in a long and painful recovery or a battle for survival against a life-threatening illness.

And yes, out of boredom, someone might simply stop creating content. But if you see someone explaining why they’re leaving and giving their reasons, that’s a different story. For these people, this is a passion. They invest a huge amount of their time, and often money, into creating content for ESO. At some point, they may just become disillusioned with the state of things.

Creating content for ESO purely for money doesn’t make sense. People who create here do so out of a genuine passion for the game.

I don't see what is so dire about "the state of things" that people who have dedicated as much time as they have are leaving. What is so bad that a content creator switches to a new game, and why is it just now becoming a problem?

Don’t ask me. Maybe try listening to the creators who are leaving to hear what’s so bad about the state of things. Oh, wait—nobody’s listening to them, and that’s actually one of the reasons. Funny how that works. Why this is even a problem isn’t for me to answer. I wasn’t trying to judge the situation, just pointing out how the original message downplays what can really make a creator walk away from something they’ve poured so much into.

I tried listening to them for 10 years. Content creators leave all the time, and it's usually because they are burned out or don't see the changes they want, delivered in varying degrees from reasonable to whining. Because in the end, they are just players like you and me.

After a while you tune that stuff out and just rely on your own sense of enjoyment.

And I really struggle to see what's wrong with ESO in 2024 that wasn't wrong in 2023, 2022, 2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016, and 2015.

LalMirchi

Watching players play might be a enjoyable for a part of the populace but games like ESO do not have that, being extremely boring in the action segment. FPS games do draw the largest viewerbase as gameplay is comparatively visually enticing.

With a tiny niche audience it is no wonder that that smart streamers choose other paths that are maybe more lucrative. It's not a brain drain, this game is not conducive for streaming.

MorganaLaVey

Arunei wrote: »

A lot of people want to rush through a dungeon, without bothering to stop and explain mechanics to newer people or people who are just not familiar with a given dungeon's bosses and how they work.

Well and why is that ? Because players like me who liked teaching mechanics and giving build advice to newer players were called "toxic elitists who push their playstyle on to others" we where told "dont pug if you dont want to carry." & "form your own premade group." So ofcourse egocentric speedrunners are the majority of experienced players left in pugs. This is exactly what the ESO community wanted and most players are apparently happier with speedrunners than with "being told what to do".

Arunei wrote: »

If we want experience to continue to be passed to others, we need to be willing to be the ones to pass it on and not just go "Oh well I don't have time for it let someone else do it".

Sadly we have to say "Oh well I don't have time for it let someone else do it" because our playtime is limited and we dont want to waste it trying to teach players who dont want to learn. Meanwhile: all the trainings groups in guilds are empty and when i invite players from PUG's they block me, why is that ?

You cant just put all the responsebillitys on experienced players. New players also have a responsibilitie to inform them selves and seek out help. And at this point in the game experienced players really have done enough to teach new players.

Sakiri

LalMirchi wrote: »

Watching players play might be a enjoyable for a part of the populace but games like ESO do not have that, being extremely boring in the action segment. FPS games do draw the largest viewerbase as gameplay is comparatively visually enticing.

With a tiny niche audience it is no wonder that that smart streamers choose other paths that are maybe more lucrative. It's not a brain drain, this game is not conducive for streaming.

The thing wish streamers is, that a lot of them do video and written guides as well, too.

It's not just people that play for others to watch.

Koshka

It's not just streamers, a lot of veteran players are only logging in to raid with friends or taking a break from ESO.
It might be controversial,but the focus on attracting exclusively new and extremely casual (for the lack of a better word) players has done a lot of harm to this game. The game is doing a bad job keeping a dedicated playerbase that's interested in multiplayer stuff, be it pve or pvp.
I am organizing events in one very active and friendly social guild and that's what I see all the time: someone joins, they are excited about the game, we help them learn the basics, craft them gear... Everything's great until they hit cp and lose interest in the game because most of the content is mind-numbingly boring, vet dlc/hm content is too hard to approach and pvp... Well, I don't have to explain. At this point I must've removed 50 or so friends who stopped logging after cp160-300.

That and performance issues, of course.