The Great ESO Brain Drain

Vaqual

Sakiri wrote: »

My nephew and cousins kids are all like this.

They also can't be bothered to play a pc game. Slightly older youngsters might have a console, but most under 25 or maybe even 30 are hooked on mobile gaming.

I would be careful with throwing mobile "gaming" into the mix. I do not think it is a comparable activity and it is not for the same audiences. There are many external factors like hardware availability, that contribute to the perceived popularity of mobile platforms, but I do not think that touchscreens and phone hardware limited graphics are what the MMO and RPG audiences are looking for either.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

That's what you get if you keep pissing of your vets. My guilds (well, Discords rather than guilds really) are active, but I've seen way to many collapsing, especially since U35. I wouldn't say we are past the point of no return, but we need changes and we need them fast.

This is from my perspective not solely due to the departure a dissatisfied "veteran" community, but also due to the rejection of ESOs "endgame" (debatable what can be considered endgame) by a large proportion of the general player base. Looking at high performing PvP and PvE builds and group setups, nearly no one gets to play a thematically coherent build. It's just an assortment of mathematically optimized elements with very little - if not negative - roleplaying value. If someone set out to be a rogue he may not want to slot Pillars. Why would he have access to magic that manipulates the earth? Or a fire mage with trap beast? How many traps is that guy carrying? Why is he in melee with daggers? You could continue this list forever. Many people have absolutely 0 (as in: not even a sliver) of interest in participating in content that requires this type of gameplay or build decision, because it adds nothing to their enjoyment of the game. A lot of the content can easily be beaten by thematically coherent builds ("with a proper Elder scrolls feeling"), but the community has fostered this notion that content has to be done on a certain way and a certain timeframe. There is merit in min-maxing and I also find it enjoyable, but never at the cost of immersion.

When people talk about those same couple content creators and their build videos, this is what comes to mind. And seriously, I am not going to miss these people.

Foxtrot39

"Also ESOU hasn't gone anywhere, although their latest builds are from mid 2023."

Sorry to inform you ESOU is shutting down, Nefas just announced it

moderatelyfatman

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

"Also ESOU hasn't gone anywhere, although their latest builds are from mid 2023."

Sorry to inform you ESOU is shutting down, Nefas just announced it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39ZiSKMkNfM

Adremal

We pray for the game to do better and for the competitors do worse. It's not our responsibility to advertise the game or draw players in by other means. Also, ESO did good well before "content creators" became a mainstream things. It might be a "me" thing, but I've never enjoyed any "content creator" except for those who do housing - nor did I ever need to consult streams or websites for builds and such. Same goes for pretty much every single other game in existence, from the laughably simple ones to the more complex ones (D4 vs. PoE is a good example). The whole "content creator" importance is vastly overblown. People accomplished way more difficult things in both ESO and games that came way before it as well as after it without the need for these so-called "brains". If anything, these "brains" made people lazy and unwilling or to commit a modicum of effort into learning how to play a game (if any of you have noticed, and I'm sure you have, blindly following a guide doesn't automatically make someone a good player).

Koshka

Vaqual wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

My nephew and cousins kids are all like this.

They also can't be bothered to play a pc game. Slightly older youngsters might have a console, but most under 25 or maybe even 30 are hooked on mobile gaming.

I would be careful with throwing mobile "gaming" into the mix. I do not think it is a comparable activity and it is not for the same audiences. There are many external factors like hardware availability, that contribute to the perceived popularity of mobile platforms, but I do not think that touchscreens and phone hardware limited graphics are what the MMO and RPG audiences are looking for either.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

That's what you get if you keep pissing of your vets. My guilds (well, Discords rather than guilds really) are active, but I've seen way to many collapsing, especially since U35. I wouldn't say we are past the point of no return, but we need changes and we need them fast.

This is from my perspective not solely due to the departure a dissatisfied "veteran" community, but also due to the rejection of ESOs "endgame" (debatable what can be considered endgame) by a large proportion of the general player base. Looking at high performing PvP and PvE builds and group setups, nearly no one gets to play a thematically coherent build. It's just an assortment of mathematically optimized elements with very little - if not negative - roleplaying value. If someone set out to be a rogue he may not want to slot Pillars. Why would he have access to magic that manipulates the earth? Or a fire mage with trap beast? How many traps is that guy carrying? Why is he in melee with daggers? You could continue this list forever. Many people have absolutely 0 (as in: not even a sliver) of interest in participating in content that requires this type of gameplay or build decision, because it adds nothing to their enjoyment of the game. A lot of the content can easily be beaten by thematically coherent builds ("with a proper Elder scrolls feeling"), but the community has fostered this notion that content has to be done on a certain way and a certain timeframe. There is merit in min-maxing and I also find it enjoyable, but never at the cost of immersion.

When people talk about those same couple content creators and their build videos, this is what comes to mind. And seriously, I am not going to miss these people.

You are forgetting that while roleplayers and lore enthusiasts are a sizeable portion of the community, they are not 100% of it.
And who said that lore enthusiasts cannot also be endgamers? There are many who were attracted to ESO because it was a TES game. It's not like liking TES lore means that you only enjoy easy solo content, even in single player TES games some of the most popular mods are focused on making the game more difficult (survival mods, deadly dragons etc).
Yes, group pve and pvp communities are not in a good shape at the moment, but it's not because people don't want to do these kinds of activities. It's just that the game is not in a great shape for them and many of them join the game and leave shortly after. There is still a sizeable market for raids and difficult dungeons - look at WoW for example, they also have a rp community, but not just that, they also have a huge playerbase of raiders.
I don't think ZOS doesn't want players who enjoy trials and pvp, after all casual rp fans plus endgamers can generate them more money than just casual rp fans.

Build-wise, I agree that meta can get stale and it is actually pretty stale at the moment. But let's be real, an average player is not going to sink many hours into testing different options on pts. They simply don't have time for that. Theorycrafting is not just generating ideas, it's testing them to see which one works best. After all, not all ideas that look good on paper are actually viable. There is demand for guides and builds for a reason. And the existence of these guide makers doesn't stop you personally from making your own builds and running dungeons blind - that's what I like to do when they release new dungeon packs.
Not to mention that one of the biggest reasons why the meta is so rigid these days is the hybridization thing. RP-friendly playstyles like double staff mages were utterly demolished by it. And many players, even casual players, don't like the feeling that their character is weaker than it could've been otherwise so they are kinda forced to use stamina weapons and skills (or magicka stuff on warrior chars). You can't blame youtubers for something that's actually ZOS' doing, they are not the ones who are balancing the game. It's not like build creators can't think of something like an earth mage, it's that the game is lacking the options for such builds, and even if you make one with some obscure proc sets, it will not be performing well. That is why you can find rp builds for overland, but not for trials.

Immersion is an interesting topic, too. Is it immersive to never face any challenges while saving the world? I personally don't think so. I am not talking about making everything super duper difficult, but what we have is different kind of exteme. I am glad that ZOS finally acknowledges that.

Lastly, I don't think it's very nice to celebrate players leaving, even if you don't like their playstyle or approach to the game. Mmos need tons of money to keep going, the more people play the game, the more chances they will live another year.

colossalvoids

If you want to contribute - contribute, some of us did previously by different means but you personally can just do so much for a game that doesn't really try. Critical mass is already seem gone, so I really doubt it can be turned over easily especially when a lot of us who's still around (to a bigger or smaller extent) aren't really interested making it a better place with how things are managed currently. Some are, props to them for their selfless offering but it's definitely not an easy task.

React

Honestly regardless of your opinions on Nefas, this video is worth watching. The insights he provides into how zenimax has historically treated it's content creators will firmly answer any questions you had about why people don't want to create content for this game any longer. The behaviors from zenimax that he goes over in this video are truly despicable.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39ZiSKMkNfM

Unfadingsilence

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

I want to state for the forum Moderators that this is not a quit or farewell letter. Please do not kill this thread.

ESO has lost a lot of content creators in the past three years, beginning with that infamous patch we will not name. Even those who have not moved away from the game completely (e.g. Nefas, Alcast etc) are predominantly focussed on other games now. The situation is even worse for PvPers with big names like Deltia and No1Else moving on.

So the question is: where are newer players getting their builds from or learning new content?
For PvE I guess SkinnyCheeks and HackTheMinotuar are still running for dps builds. And TankClub is still there for tanks.
For PvP I know Malcolm still maintains a good website and releases the occasional video. Luca Cash is another who does PvP build videos.
Also ESOU hasn't gone anywhere, although their latest builds are from mid 2023.


And then there is the direct, peer to peer knowlege gained from other players. I've noticed in the 3 guilds I belong to there are 3-4 tanks who have tanked all the content at vet level (non HM) which technically means that only two players in each guild have to quit and we're back to training runs and progs.
The situation for PvP is much worse. In one of my guilds we used to run PvP raids 4 times per week.... it has been zero for the last year. My other guilds were PvE based but used to at least do one PvP session per week to help players level up their Alliance skill line and get telvar, but no more. Most of our PvP raid leaders have moved onto New World or Throne and Liberty so that knowlege has gone and the capacity to build our guild back to its previous glory has gone with them.

So what do you think we as players can do to keep this knowledge and this community of elders going?

This didn't age well 😕

Servadei

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

"Also ESOU hasn't gone anywhere, although their latest builds are from mid 2023."

Sorry to inform you ESOU is shutting down, Nefas just announced it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39ZiSKMkNfM

What a huge loss. I doubt anyone is going to fill this void because ESOU was such a massive undertaking involving so many players.

Moonsorrow

Content creators often see maintenance mode in games faster than some average players do, due to them following the metrics of their content. Thus after last years and especially after the Developer letter about ending Chapters and going into tiny updates means more and more content creators understands situation and leaves for more healthy games. This was to be expected. It is still quite sad.

Pepegrillos

Some people get tired of the game and stop making content/playing. Others see that viewership numbers are not there anymore, so they can't live off ESO alone. Others think they are better than they are and think ESO is too small for them (the list of former ESO content creators whose 'careers' died after swapping games is too long). Others happen to find more profitable ventures (i.e., Alcast and Deltia) and move on. People leave for various reasons, many cases are somewhat different.

Vaqual

Koshka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

My nephew and cousins kids are all like this.

They also can't be bothered to play a pc game. Slightly older youngsters might have a console, but most under 25 or maybe even 30 are hooked on mobile gaming.

I would be careful with throwing mobile "gaming" into the mix. I do not think it is a comparable activity and it is not for the same audiences. There are many external factors like hardware availability, that contribute to the perceived popularity of mobile platforms, but I do not think that touchscreens and phone hardware limited graphics are what the MMO and RPG audiences are looking for either.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

That's what you get if you keep pissing of your vets. My guilds (well, Discords rather than guilds really) are active, but I've seen way to many collapsing, especially since U35. I wouldn't say we are past the point of no return, but we need changes and we need them fast.

This is from my perspective not solely due to the departure a dissatisfied "veteran" community, but also due to the rejection of ESOs "endgame" (debatable what can be considered endgame) by a large proportion of the general player base. Looking at high performing PvP and PvE builds and group setups, nearly no one gets to play a thematically coherent build. It's just an assortment of mathematically optimized elements with very little - if not negative - roleplaying value. If someone set out to be a rogue he may not want to slot Pillars. Why would he have access to magic that manipulates the earth? Or a fire mage with trap beast? How many traps is that guy carrying? Why is he in melee with daggers? You could continue this list forever. Many people have absolutely 0 (as in: not even a sliver) of interest in participating in content that requires this type of gameplay or build decision, because it adds nothing to their enjoyment of the game. A lot of the content can easily be beaten by thematically coherent builds ("with a proper Elder scrolls feeling"), but the community has fostered this notion that content has to be done on a certain way and a certain timeframe. There is merit in min-maxing and I also find it enjoyable, but never at the cost of immersion.

When people talk about those same couple content creators and their build videos, this is what comes to mind. And seriously, I am not going to miss these people.

You are forgetting that while roleplayers and lore enthusiasts are a sizeable portion of the community, they are not 100% of it.
And who said that lore enthusiasts cannot also be endgamers? There are many who were attracted to ESO because it was a TES game. It's not like liking TES lore means that you only enjoy easy solo content, even in single player TES games some of the most popular mods are focused on making the game more difficult (survival mods, deadly dragons etc).
Yes, group pve and pvp communities are not in a good shape at the moment, but it's not because people don't want to do these kinds of activities. It's just that the game is not in a great shape for them and many of them join the game and leave shortly after. There is still a sizeable market for raids and difficult dungeons - look at WoW for example, they also have a rp community, but not just that, they also have a huge playerbase of raiders.
I don't think ZOS doesn't want players who enjoy trials and pvp, after all casual rp fans plus endgamers can generate them more money than just casual rp fans.

Build-wise, I agree that meta can get stale and it is actually pretty stale at the moment. But let's be real, an average player is not going to sink many hours into testing different options on pts. They simply don't have time for that. Theorycrafting is not just generating ideas, it's testing them to see which one works best. After all, not all ideas that look good on paper are actually viable. There is demand for guides and builds for a reason. And the existence of these guide makers doesn't stop you personally from making your own builds and running dungeons blind - that's what I like to do when they release new dungeon packs.
Not to mention that one of the biggest reasons why the meta is so rigid these days is the hybridization thing. RP-friendly playstyles like double staff mages were utterly demolished by it. And many players, even casual players, don't like the feeling that their character is weaker than it could've been otherwise so they are kinda forced to use stamina weapons and skills (or magicka stuff on warrior chars). You can't blame youtubers for something that's actually ZOS' doing, they are not the ones who are balancing the game. It's not like build creators can't think of something like an earth mage, it's that the game is lacking the options for such builds, and even if you make one with some obscure proc sets, it will not be performing well. That is why you can find rp builds for overland, but not for trials.

Immersion is an interesting topic, too. Is it immersive to never face any challenges while saving the world? I personally don't think so. I am not talking about making everything super duper difficult, but what we have is different kind of exteme. I am glad that ZOS finally acknowledges that.

Lastly, I don't think it's very nice to celebrate players leaving, even if you don't like their playstyle or approach to the game. Mmos need tons of money to keep going, the more people play the game, the more chances they will live another year.

I think you understood my text incorrectly. I am all for difficulty, challenge, min-maxing and demanding group content. But I hate that you have to sacrifice immersion for it. In other games you can optimize your class without losing cohesion and flavour. As an example: Maybe your mage class will need to make a choice between a lightning and flame spec, which would have tradeoffs but perform within a certain margin. But you would not be asked to play with an entirely different combat concept just to hit the required numbers. That is where I draw the line for myself. I also don't appreciate that there is this artificial distinction between "roleplayers" and those who take content seriously. To an extent everyone who signs up for an RPG does so with the intention to roleplay a character. And I think it is not too much to ask for a sensible class and combat design. I think I am far from a typical roleplayer or "lore enthusiast", but I am not willing to abandon the general flavor of my class to play the eso-typical meta-chimera and push my performance.

This isn't so much different subgroups of players, this is a critique of poor design on one hand, and an absolutely unnecessary level of meta-worship by the community on the other.
The meta also doesn't need to be shaken up to bring fresh wind, it just needs to not be bad from a design perspective.
Content creators building an ecosystem around designs that I reject are therefore completely irrelevant to me (just speaking for myself here).
That is however not a statement about my understanding of these concepts, so there is no need to explain the "need" for the existence of such a meta.

I really want to make clear that your comment entirely missed my points.

Edit for clarification: I am not asking that each NB build involves daggers etc. I really love the freedoms you have in ESO. This is much more about outlier performances, FotM-patch mentality and bad power distribution in balancing. And above all, a counterproductive mentality from many community members.

alpha_synuclein

React wrote: »

Honestly regardless of your opinions on Nefas, this video is worth watching. The insights he provides into how zenimax has historically treated it's content creators will firmly answer any questions you had about why people don't want to create content for this game any longer. The behaviors from zenimax that he goes over in this video are truly despicable.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39ZiSKMkNfM

Good old censorship and ghaslighting. Eh...

alpha_synuclein

Vaqual wrote: »

This is from my perspective not solely due to the departure a dissatisfied "veteran" community, but also due to the rejection of ESOs "endgame" (debatable what can be considered endgame) by a large proportion of the general player base. Looking at high performing PvP and PvE builds and group setups, nearly no one gets to play a thematically coherent build. It's just an assortment of mathematically optimized elements with very little - if not negative - roleplaying value. If someone set out to be a rogue he may not want to slot Pillars. Why would he have access to magic that manipulates the earth? Or a fire mage with trap beast? How many traps is that guy carrying? Why is he in melee with daggers? You could continue this list forever. Many people have absolutely 0 (as in: not even a sliver) of interest in participating in content that requires this type of gameplay or build decision, because it adds nothing to their enjoyment of the game. A lot of the content can easily be beaten by thematically coherent builds ("with a proper Elder scrolls feeling"), but the community has fostered this notion that content has to be done on a certain way and a certain timeframe. There is merit in min-maxing and I also find it enjoyable, but never at the cost of immersion.

When people talk about those same couple content creators and their build videos, this is what comes to mind. And seriously, I am not going to miss these people.

And hybridization made it worse than ever. When I started playing trials mages wore light armor and used staves. But then ZOS decided that every possible build need to have every possible armor/weapon/skill option available. And balanced in a way that created small selection of very strong builds that take all the best options from all themed plus tons of technically possible themed build that are mostly weak. We got a glimpse of power for an ice warden for a moment, but they killed it within 2 updates. Blaming players for this nonsense is misguided.

Also, I will agree that most content can be beaten with pretty much any coherent build, as long as the player is good enough. But most is not all. And endgame oriented content creators are doing builds for players who are playing content that require all the power one can get (and players who want to get there). Rendering them useless just because you're not interested is just low.

Koshka

Vaqual wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

My nephew and cousins kids are all like this.

They also can't be bothered to play a pc game. Slightly older youngsters might have a console, but most under 25 or maybe even 30 are hooked on mobile gaming.

I would be careful with throwing mobile "gaming" into the mix. I do not think it is a comparable activity and it is not for the same audiences. There are many external factors like hardware availability, that contribute to the perceived popularity of mobile platforms, but I do not think that touchscreens and phone hardware limited graphics are what the MMO and RPG audiences are looking for either.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

That's what you get if you keep pissing of your vets. My guilds (well, Discords rather than guilds really) are active, but I've seen way to many collapsing, especially since U35. I wouldn't say we are past the point of no return, but we need changes and we need them fast.

This is from my perspective not solely due to the departure a dissatisfied "veteran" community, but also due to the rejection of ESOs "endgame" (debatable what can be considered endgame) by a large proportion of the general player base. Looking at high performing PvP and PvE builds and group setups, nearly no one gets to play a thematically coherent build. It's just an assortment of mathematically optimized elements with very little - if not negative - roleplaying value. If someone set out to be a rogue he may not want to slot Pillars. Why would he have access to magic that manipulates the earth? Or a fire mage with trap beast? How many traps is that guy carrying? Why is he in melee with daggers? You could continue this list forever. Many people have absolutely 0 (as in: not even a sliver) of interest in participating in content that requires this type of gameplay or build decision, because it adds nothing to their enjoyment of the game. A lot of the content can easily be beaten by thematically coherent builds ("with a proper Elder scrolls feeling"), but the community has fostered this notion that content has to be done on a certain way and a certain timeframe. There is merit in min-maxing and I also find it enjoyable, but never at the cost of immersion.

When people talk about those same couple content creators and their build videos, this is what comes to mind. And seriously, I am not going to miss these people.

You are forgetting that while roleplayers and lore enthusiasts are a sizeable portion of the community, they are not 100% of it.
And who said that lore enthusiasts cannot also be endgamers? There are many who were attracted to ESO because it was a TES game. It's not like liking TES lore means that you only enjoy easy solo content, even in single player TES games some of the most popular mods are focused on making the game more difficult (survival mods, deadly dragons etc).
Yes, group pve and pvp communities are not in a good shape at the moment, but it's not because people don't want to do these kinds of activities. It's just that the game is not in a great shape for them and many of them join the game and leave shortly after. There is still a sizeable market for raids and difficult dungeons - look at WoW for example, they also have a rp community, but not just that, they also have a huge playerbase of raiders.
I don't think ZOS doesn't want players who enjoy trials and pvp, after all casual rp fans plus endgamers can generate them more money than just casual rp fans.

Build-wise, I agree that meta can get stale and it is actually pretty stale at the moment. But let's be real, an average player is not going to sink many hours into testing different options on pts. They simply don't have time for that. Theorycrafting is not just generating ideas, it's testing them to see which one works best. After all, not all ideas that look good on paper are actually viable. There is demand for guides and builds for a reason. And the existence of these guide makers doesn't stop you personally from making your own builds and running dungeons blind - that's what I like to do when they release new dungeon packs.
Not to mention that one of the biggest reasons why the meta is so rigid these days is the hybridization thing. RP-friendly playstyles like double staff mages were utterly demolished by it. And many players, even casual players, don't like the feeling that their character is weaker than it could've been otherwise so they are kinda forced to use stamina weapons and skills (or magicka stuff on warrior chars). You can't blame youtubers for something that's actually ZOS' doing, they are not the ones who are balancing the game. It's not like build creators can't think of something like an earth mage, it's that the game is lacking the options for such builds, and even if you make one with some obscure proc sets, it will not be performing well. That is why you can find rp builds for overland, but not for trials.

Immersion is an interesting topic, too. Is it immersive to never face any challenges while saving the world? I personally don't think so. I am not talking about making everything super duper difficult, but what we have is different kind of exteme. I am glad that ZOS finally acknowledges that.

Lastly, I don't think it's very nice to celebrate players leaving, even if you don't like their playstyle or approach to the game. Mmos need tons of money to keep going, the more people play the game, the more chances they will live another year.

I think you understood my text incorrectly. I am all for difficulty, challenge, min-maxing and demanding group content. But I hate that you have to sacrifice immersion for it. In other games you can optimize your class without losing cohesion and flavour. As an example: Maybe your mage class will need to make a choice between a lightning and flame spec, which would have tradeoffs but perform within a certain margin. But you would not be asked to play with an entirely different combat concept just to hit the required numbers. That is where I draw the line for myself. I also don't appreciate that there is this artificial distinction between "roleplayers" and those who take content seriously. To an extent everyone who signs up for an RPG does so with the intention to roleplay a character. And I think it is not too much to ask for a sensible class and combat design. I think I am far from a typical roleplayer or "lore enthusiast", but I am not willing to abandon the general flavor of my class to play the eso-typical meta-chimera and push my performance.

This isn't so much different subgroups of players, this is a critique of poor design on one hand, and an absolutely unnecessary level of meta-worship by the community on the other.
The meta also doesn't need to be shaken up to bring fresh wind, it just needs to not be bad from a design perspective.

I really want to make clear that your comment entirely missed my points.

I am sorry, then. Thanks for elaborating.
I still think the issues with meta are on ZOS and it's not players fault... They are adding achievements like speedruns or trifectas, they are designing ESO' combat and classes. It wouldn't have been such big of an issue if they at least allowed you to choose between mage and warrior archetypes in any meaningful way.

Vaqual

Maybe you can explain a couple of points, I

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Rendering them useless just because you're not interested is just low.

I am not sure that I understand this part. Is there an obligation to be interested? Is this how this should be understood?

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

We got a glimpse of power for an ice warden for a moment, but they killed it within 2 updates. Blaming players for this nonsense is misguided.

Who is blamed here for what? I said that I am not interested in engaging with certain builds, that ZOS balances with little concern or vision for polished designs and that players set unhealthy expectations. The bottom line was that I don't need a youtuber to narrate any of that and that I feel their is a sizeable number of players who thinks the same (who do not engage with any ESO-related media outside of the game). I don't know where I blamed players for ice warden nerfs, if that is what you meant at all.

doesurmindglow

It's interesting because unlike the Update 35 debacle, this has been much more of a slow bleed: even during that upheaval, which saw many guilds, content creators, and raid leaders depart the game, player counts as sampled by Steam user data were still higher than they are now:



I suspect ZOS is seeing similar data on their end which covers more of the playerbase, as Steam only offers data on their subset of players. But even as a subset, it's likely to be representative of the game as a whole.

It's hard to say what exactly can reverse a trendline of this magnitude. The MMO space is kind of in a tough spot generally, so it might just be that the market is going another direction. But I worry also that the approach to player feedback has been at times either dismissive or outright hostile, and that's in the cases that it's not just moderated out of existence, which is most of the time.

It's time to start listening to the players, scale back the censorship of their feedback, and make more serious structural changes to address their pain points and drive more interest in the product.

Onomog

doesurmindglow wrote: »

But I worry also that the approach to player feedback has been at times either dismissive or outright hostile, and that's in the cases that it's not just moderated out of existence, which is most of the time.

I think this is a big part of it, and, imho, the root of a lot of what is wrong in the game right now.

doesurmindglow wrote: »

It's time to start listening to the players, scale back the censorship of their feedback, and make more serious structural changes to address their pain points and drive more interest in the product.

Given their track record, I really question whether they have the ability to do that. Seems like a heavy lift for them.

kargen27

React wrote: »

Honestly regardless of your opinions on Nefas, this video is worth watching. The insights he provides into how zenimax has historically treated it's content creators will firmly answer any questions you had about why people don't want to create content for this game any longer. The behaviors from zenimax that he goes over in this video are truly despicable.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39ZiSKMkNfM

I watched the video. Big waste of time. Was basically hey look at me I'm a victim and they aren't treating me special any more so I quit.

alpha_synuclein

Vaqual wrote: »

Maybe you can explain a couple of points, I

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Rendering them useless just because you're not interested is just low.

I am not sure that I understand this part. Is there an obligation to be interested? Is this how this should be understood?

Of course being interested is not obligatory. I, for one, am not really interested in housing. Which is why if housing enthusiasts would try to voice their concerns about their youtubers leaving I wouldn't respond with "I won't miss those people ". Even though I probably won't.

Vaqual wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

We got a glimpse of power for an ice warden for a moment, but they killed it within 2 updates. Blaming players for this nonsense is misguided.

Who is blamed here for what? I said that I am not interested in engaging with certain builds, that ZOS balances with little concern or vision for polished designs and that players set unhealthy expectations. The bottom line was that I don't need a youtuber to narrate any of that and that I feel their is a sizeable number of players who thinks the same (who do not engage with any ESO-related media outside of the game). I don't know where I blamed players for ice warden nerfs, if that is what you meant at all.

Ye, this one was worded a bit poorly. I wanted to point out that players (especially endgame players) gravitate towards the strongest builds. What you called unhealthy expectations doesn't come from some players blindly following some youtubers. It comes from the fact that vast majority of themed builds are substantially weaker than the current meta mixitall stuff. And that is on ZOS.
I am still using my warden with ice staves and without trap (this skill is an abomination on a mage), but I wouldn't take her into any of the recent DLC trial HMs. I've seen her numbers. She won't cut it.

Vaqual wrote: »

A lot of the content can easily be beaten by thematically coherent builds ("with a proper Elder scrolls feeling"), but the community has fostered this notion that content has to be done on a certain way and a certain timeframe.

With the blaming part I was mostly referring to the bolded fragment. Community as a whole didn't foster anything. Endgame community create metas and minmax, because that's what works in the content they aim for. There is no obligation to follow. But many players do follow, because they see that meta works and how weak themed builds are in comparison. As far as I can tell, when you get to harder content very few will trade power for immersion.

Vaqual

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Maybe you can explain a couple of points, I

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Rendering them useless just because you're not interested is just low.

I am not sure that I understand this part. Is there an obligation to be interested? Is this how this should be understood?

Of course being interested is not obligatory. I, for one, am not really interested in housing. Which is why if housing enthusiasts would try to voice their concerns about their youtubers leaving I wouldn't respond with "I won't miss those people ". Even though I probably won't.

Vaqual wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

We got a glimpse of power for an ice warden for a moment, but they killed it within 2 updates. Blaming players for this nonsense is misguided.

Who is blamed here for what? I said that I am not interested in engaging with certain builds, that ZOS balances with little concern or vision for polished designs and that players set unhealthy expectations. The bottom line was that I don't need a youtuber to narrate any of that and that I feel their is a sizeable number of players who thinks the same (who do not engage with any ESO-related media outside of the game). I don't know where I blamed players for ice warden nerfs, if that is what you meant at all.

Ye, this one was worded a bit poorly. I wanted to point out that players (especially endgame players) gravitate towards the strongest builds. What you called unhealthy expectations doesn't come from some players blindly following some youtubers. It comes from the fact that vast majority of themed builds are substantially weaker than the current meta mixitall stuff. And that is on ZOS.
I am still using my warden with ice staves and without trap (this skill is an abomination on a mage), but I wouldn't take her into any of the recent DLC trial HMs. I've seen her numbers. She won't cut it.

Vaqual wrote: »

A lot of the content can easily be beaten by thematically coherent builds ("with a proper Elder scrolls feeling"), but the community has fostered this notion that content has to be done on a certain way and a certain timeframe.

With the blaming part I was mostly referring to the bolded fragment. Community as a whole didn't foster anything. Endgame community create metas and minmax, because that's what works in the content they aim for. There is no obligation to follow. But many players do follow, because they see that meta works and how weak themed builds are in comparison. As far as I can tell, when you get to harder content very few will trade power for immersion.

Thanks for clarifying. Of course it is ok to have different perspectives.

MidniteOwl1913

kargen27 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Honestly regardless of your opinions on Nefas, this video is worth watching. The insights he provides into how zenimax has historically treated it's content creators will firmly answer any questions you had about why people don't want to create content for this game any longer. The behaviors from zenimax that he goes over in this video are truly despicable.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39ZiSKMkNfM

I watched the video. Big waste of time. Was basically hey look at me I'm a victim and they aren't treating me special any more so I quit.

Considering they offer information that otherwise would be hard to come by, for free. ZOS *should* treat them special. When I first started playing the I depended on content providers, the combat system, sets, builds was opaque. I wondered how a business managed to survive when it relied on 3 parties to provide essential tools. Now I guess I'll find out.

Warhawke_80

Desiato wrote: »

In a game as ridiculously easy as 99.9% of the content is in eso, most players have absolutely no need for theorycrafters whatsoever.

It's very much play how you want.

We already know the pvp and trial communities have been pretty small for many years. Obviously they haven't been big enough to financially induce content creators to play eso.

Plus look at the gameplay. Flail flail beam. Not particularly entertaining to play, less entertaining to watch.

Well that's the nature of a TES game play how you want...personally I was shocked that they did classes much less the Trinity...but they did that for End Game Raiders, and surprise surprise no one is raiding except for the handful of folks that make threads like this....

If The devs could make ESO again...I wonder what would they do...

boi_anachronism_

No. Newbies need help, they need access to info instead of getting it from some rando. Im running into tanks in 12 man tryin to do hms who say "im a tank healer hybrid".

NO. Healers got a job, tank has a job. They each got gear.

The information is disappearing and end game players, whats left of us, especially on ps/na are just exhausted.

There is some serious irony in the fact that people sit here going"well this never helped me". Ok but how many of the people that TAUGHT you used these resources? Id bet the overwhelming majority.

moderatelyfatman

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

No. Newbies need help, they need access to info instead of getting it from some rando. Im running into tanks in 12 man tryin to do hms who say "im a tank healer hybrid".

NO. Healers got a job, tank has a job. They each got gear.

The information is disappearing and end game players, whats left of us, especially on ps/na are just exhausted.

There is some serious irony in the fact that people sit here going"well this never helped me". Ok but how many of the people that TAUGHT you used these resources? Id bet the overwhelming majority.

I'm pretty much guilty of the same thing: early on in my first progs I came up with a build which was great in normal content but worthless in vet.
My raid lead was kind enough to PM me afterwards and explain some of the differences and then gave me links to various builds as well as videos on how to do vet trials. When I watched these videos and finally understood things such as healer/tank/dps placement and stacking.
I've noticed that these sources of information are getting scarcer and content creators and taking longer and longer to get them out as ESO has become their second or third game of choice.

@Warhawke_80 "If The devs could make ESO again...I wonder what would they do..."
If I answered that I'd probably get permabanned from these forums!

kargen27

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Honestly regardless of your opinions on Nefas, this video is worth watching. The insights he provides into how zenimax has historically treated it's content creators will firmly answer any questions you had about why people don't want to create content for this game any longer. The behaviors from zenimax that he goes over in this video are truly despicable.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39ZiSKMkNfM

I watched the video. Big waste of time. Was basically hey look at me I'm a victim and they aren't treating me special any more so I quit.

Considering they offer information that otherwise would be hard to come by, for free. ZOS *should* treat them special. When I first started playing the I depended on content providers, the combat system, sets, builds was opaque. I wondered how a business managed to survive when it relied on 3 parties to provide essential tools. Now I guess I'll find out.

funny I was able to use guild mates to help with a build if I might be a bit confused. I'm lucky that I had a guild mate that loved coming up with the best builds and rotations and would even take the time to work with people on a combat dummy. He would count out the cadence of each rotation for you letting you know if you were late or early as you did it. Just a few times through really helped.
Point being the streamers are not an exclusive source of information and never have been. They are an easy source of information outside the game. The most prolific always migrate on either when they lose interest or find a game/activity that gets them more hits. Nature of the beast. And of course there is the need of some as we see here that feel the need to trash what they are leaving behind hoping others will follow to their next grand adventure. Basically a parasite sucking the host dry before moving to the next host.

Sakiri

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

[quote="moderatelyfatman;c-
Everyone goes on about ESO being 10 years old but GW2 is 12 years old, FF14 is 14 years old

Sakiri wrote: »

Tbh, I played before U35 as well. Combat wasn't exactly perfect and intuitive to the average player then, either.

They could have simplified it without the homogeneity added by hybridization. I prefer the current scheme to the old though. But it's not for everyone. They did too much all at once. Eq2 also had a combat system revamp and it was also hated. Been there, too.

However, what I don't understand, is why they felt the need to change it to begin with. I wasn't here at the time of the update.

They said the idea was to simplify rotations by making them more spammable based instead of DoT based (so DoTs got elongated and majority got a nerf). And to reduce the impact of LA weaving on damage (so nerf to LAs, buff to heavies and HA build support).

But they never finished and weapon passives weren't touched. Everyone is basically forced into front barring daggers now.

Personofsecrets

It's unfortunate to see politics playing such an important role in the future of the game.

alpha_synuclein

kargen27 wrote: »

funny I was able to use guild mates to help with a build if I might be a bit confused. I'm lucky that I had a guild mate that loved coming up with the best builds and rotations and would even take the time to work with people on a combat dummy. He would count out the cadence of each rotation for you letting you know if you were late or early as you did it. Just a few times through really helped.
Point being the streamers are not an exclusive source of information and never have been. They are an easy source of information outside the game. The most prolific always migrate on either when they lose interest or find a game/activity that gets them more hits. Nature of the beast. And of course there is the need of some as we see here that feel the need to trash what they are leaving behind hoping others will follow to their next grand adventure. Basically a parasite sucking the host dry before moving to the next host.

You were indeed lucky to get to learn things directly. Not many gets to do that. Which is why it's important to have reliable sources of knowledge published and available to everyone. If the only way to learn things was through a word of mouth within guilds, it would be extremely restrictive.

alpha_synuclein

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

No. Newbies need help, they need access to info instead of getting it from some rando. Im running into tanks in 12 man tryin to do hms who say "im a tank healer hybrid".

NO. Healers got a job, tank has a job. They each got gear.

The information is disappearing and end game players, whats left of us, especially on ps/na are just exhausted.

There is some serious irony in the fact that people sit here going"well this never helped me". Ok but how many of the people that TAUGHT you used these resources? Id bet the overwhelming majority.

This. So much.
If you've ever heard from somewhere how a mechanic is working, the source of that somewhere is most likely one of the people that are being dismissed here.