Anyone else worried about the Micro transactions that are looming?

Thete

xHorridx wrote: »

I love sub based games, I loathe f2p crap. BTW.

Make your mind up. By having vanity items in a digital store, they tide themselves over during leaner months so that they aren't then pressured to go F2P. They are a business, you know? Don't go thinking that it's the people who make the game that decide the financial matters; it's their shareholders that will force that issue if they aren't happy with their returns.

korwinthale

@WhiteQueen Yep, the problem is also that people forget The difference in terms as well such as

Entitlement: the fact of having a right to something

Service: the action of helping or doing work for someone.

Subscription: the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something.

Privilege: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.

People tend to throw those words around a lot.

So here is the thing, We pay a subscription, in order to have the privilege of entitlement to the service that they offer.

Now when they begin asking for money for things that clearly are part of that service, then we are effectively being forced to Pay more money for the privilege of the entitlement to enjoy the same said service yet again.

Therein is my problem with it.

Korah_Eaglecry

xHorridx wrote: »

Im sorry but im not ok with vanity items being in a shop. We pay a 15/month sub. If the game is good that is enough to make their money.

I get sick and tired of listening to mmo gamers nowadays that are ok with "vanity items" being pulled out of the game and put in a shop, when if you you pay 15/month those items SHO)ULD already be in the game as content for 15/month.

We MMO gamers have let our favorite gaming genre creators pull the wool over our yes in recent years to where we believe their BS, that its ok to put "vanity" in cash shops where those items, again, should already be available to us as content. Especially in games like TESO where we pay a premium monthly fee.

I love sub based games, I loathe f2p crap. BTW.

Instead of shooting off about things you dont know...You should actually look things up. Otherwise you come off as a raging self entitled customer.

1.) In the last 10 years. The Sub Fee for MMOs has not changed. But inflation has changed the value of 15 Dollars. This means that an MMO is not making the kind of money they used to Sub wise versus the money spent to keep the MMO up and running on a Sub based build.
2.) The current MMO market is flooded with Free To Play MMOs. They act as Funhouses where the focus is more on Customization then actual Gameplay. For some god awful reason these games are popular. And in turn act as direct competition for MMOs with Subs.
3.) Gamers now expect vanity items that make them feel unique and significantly different from those they play alongside of. The demand is so high that an MMO would be foolish not to open a Cash Shop.
4.) While an MMO might get lucky with its Subs and maintain a profit. Not all profit is worthwhile profit. Profit is everything after the costs of maintaining the game, continuous improvements and streamlining current features, continued additions of content and keeping the Servers running. An MMO needs to not only make the investment back. But also profit significantly vs the cost of upkeep to keep its doors open. And believe it or not. In todays economy. A 15 dollar Sub is not going to cut it. An MMO would be seriously gimping its chances of survival without a Cash Shop.
5.) In case of an MMO not meeting its projected goals of subs. And it must go F2P to survive. A preexisting Cash Shop will prevent it from tanking while it attempts to transition.
6.) Unless a Cash Shop introduces Pay to Win Items. Whether its a Sub Based MMO or F2P. Theres nothing requiring you to buy from the Cash Shop.

So the truth is. The Cash Shop is here to stay. And as long as they prevent any sort of game-altering/balance breaking items to flow out of the Cash Shop. Then they have not done anything wrong.

korwinthale

@Korah_Eaglecry Well said, I suppose you are right in that regard if it helps to keep this game going I'm for it I just NEVER want to see it go F2P or I shall sadly leave it.

Tiarette

I was hoping this would be avoided here as it was supposed to be different than any of the other MMOs. But sadly, money is money and they're going to get it when they can. People will buy it, so micro transactions will always be around as it's the new fad in gaming companies.

Corndart

Wow envy sure is an ugly ugly beast.

I don't have a problem with pay-to-win micro transactions. If someone with cash wants a shorter path to epic (or even max level), I feel a bit sad for them as they've cheated themselves of an experience.

Vanity items are also fine because they're basically irrelevant, they have no effect on gameplay.

Greed is good, and if it helps keep this game going and people interested, then go for it.

lordspyder

Napkins wrote: »

I think guilds wars 2 proved that you don't need a sub fee to make a successful game. They release a DLC type patch once every 2 weeks. All this support coming from micro transactions.
The actual server maintenance costs so little now that asking for a sub fee is just greed for more money. (see WoW past few years)

This is so wrong it's funny, the only reason GW2 is still afloat is because NCSoft has other games to keep it afloat, otherwise why would wildstar have a sub fee. If the B2P system worked so well why wouldn't they keep all their games B2P?

Corndart

WhiteQueen wrote: »

I feel there's an essential disconnect in the understanding of the ethics of this issue between those that think it's okay to have a cash shop in a subbed game and those that don't.

A thought experiment for everyone: Shouldn't my sub basically pay for EVERY service offered by the game? Isn't that the point of my subscription? Else, why sub at all?

Perhaps you don't live a geography where tiered services pricing is widespread, but it's quite common.

When you pay for cable / tv , do you get everything available from that provider for a flat rate? Of course you don't. I fail to see any difference here with micro transactions in a subscription-supported MMO.

korwinthale

Corndart wrote: »

WhiteQueen wrote: »

I feel there's an essential disconnect in the understanding of the ethics of this issue between those that think it's okay to have a cash shop in a subbed game and those that don't.

A thought experiment for everyone: Shouldn't my sub basically pay for EVERY service offered by the game? Isn't that the point of my subscription? Else, why sub at all?

Perhaps you don't live a geography where tiered services pricing is widespread, but it's quite common.

When you pay for cable / tv , do you get everything available from that provider for a flat rate? Of course you don't. I fail to see any difference here with micro transactions in a subscription-supported MMO.

That is completley different as your cable provider does give you their service , they dont get to give you HBO for free you have to cover the cost for them providing you HBO they dont just magically crap out a channel and charge you for it :P

Korah_Eaglecry

korwinthale wrote: »

Corndart wrote: »

WhiteQueen wrote: »

I feel there's an essential disconnect in the understanding of the ethics of this issue between those that think it's okay to have a cash shop in a subbed game and those that don't.

A thought experiment for everyone: Shouldn't my sub basically pay for EVERY service offered by the game? Isn't that the point of my subscription? Else, why sub at all?

Perhaps you don't live a geography where tiered services pricing is widespread, but it's quite common.

When you pay for cable / tv , do you get everything available from that provider for a flat rate? Of course you don't. I fail to see any difference here with micro transactions in a subscription-supported MMO.

That is completley different as your cable provider does give you their service , they dont get to give you HBO for free you have to cover the cost for them providing you HBO they dont just magically crap out a channel and charge you for it :P

Actually its a very good analogy. Your sub (Cable Subscription) fee is for access to the Server/Content(Cable TV Stations). Additional Content comes out (New TV Shows ) to keep the Gamer (Viewer) engaged.

But if you want access to things that are fluff and vanity items (HBO in this analogy). You have to pay extra.

Shimond

Not at all concerned until I start seeing the company put more content into the store than in the game. Certainly other games have done this (SWTOR I'm looking at you) but until it starts happening here I'm not worried in the least.

Dayshadow

You pay $15 a month. They take that money, develop content with it and then turn around and charge you more money to receive the fruits of your investment money...

This shouldn't be acceptable to anyone. However, they know the MMO crowd are addicts and they can do whatever they want whenever the want.

Altheina

No, I wouldn't support this and I think it's lame way for ZOS to take advantage of players of selling vanity item(horse in this case) on top of an already $15/month forcefully imposed.

I can understand if this game was b2p or f2p but certainly not p2p. I think Zenimax is playing bait now and Palamino horse is the first 'bait' it puts to see if many players got 'hooked'.

My advice Zenimax, don't do this to your playerbase, especially with p2p system. You may do this after the game already been out for at least a year but not when it is just launched...

PS: TESO maybe having 5 million beta players, but don't forget that it is still in probation period and from the mmo trend nowadays, the flip flop happens way faster than anticipated!

Thete

WhiteQueen wrote: »

A thought experiment for everyone: Shouldn't my sub basically pay for EVERY service offered by the game? Isn't that the point of my subscription? Else, why sub at all?

It pays for what it says it pays for. When you buy a ticket into Disneyworld, you don't expect to have the hot dogs for free.

Sarenia

I never like microtransactions.

Even "it's just vanity stuff" isn't okay with me.

Why? Because inevitably, most if not all of the new/good looking items end up going straight to market in games that ease into the "vanity stuff" mini-market concept.

Give them an inch, they'll take a mile. Every time. Say no to mini-markets, okay?

Pixie123

I hate micro transactions for stuff that younshould just be able to get by playing the game tbh. Services like name changes or server transfers are fine but honestly i dont get why a p2p game would sell ingame items. They have the security of subs coming every month and we get the promise that we dont have to pay for any content. Thats it. ( ofc expacs will not be free thats a given) saying this though i can live with it. HOWEVER if they start selling armour skins that look better than anything u can get ingame by far and pay to win items.... Ye, that i could not live with. Pets and mounts irk me but as long as its not loads all the time ill deal with it.

Thete

Pixie123 wrote: »

They have the security of subs coming every month

What makes you think that? The reason the most profitable MMOs are F2P (with one obvious exception) is precisely because the sub model is as far from a secure source of income as you can get.

Pixie123

Well as long as they have a large sunscriber base then they have the security. If they dont then thats when the game then adops a f2p model. Only in those circumstances is a cash shop selling vanity items acceptable tbh because THAT is how they make their money. With a p2p model subs is how they make their money. Thats my opinion anyways.

Thete

Pixie123 wrote: »

Well as long as they have a large sunscriber base then they have the security.

WoW has the largest subscriber base of all, by a country mile, yet has no security; the variation in subscriber numbers varies wildly over the course of an expansion. The thing is that most players are fairly casual and pay month by month. As soon as the content dries up for them, they stop subbing until something new comes out.

This happens in WoW at the end of every expansion. Last year was quite bad and they brought out the annual pass to try and smooth it out. They've done it again at the end of the current expansion and experiencing a massive drop off in numbers. In game store boosts the books to keep the accountants and shareholders off their backs.

Pixie123

Yes and thats all well and good. Likeninsaid it irks me but i can live with it. The difference here is that this a new mmo and not a 10 year old one. And even still if you look at wows cash shop considering thay started selling pets and mouts what? About 4 years ago now? There are very few of them in that time. Its livable with. All i am saying is personally i dont like the idea but if they keep it tastefull and dont go overboard with it then itll be fine. I still beleive that if you pay a sub everything should be attainable content wise ingame, but mounts and pets in a cash shop are acceptable to a point.

AlienSlof

Thete wrote: »

xHorridx wrote: »

I love sub based games, I loathe f2p crap. BTW.

Make your mind up. By having vanity items in a digital store, they tide themselves over during leaner months so that they aren't then pressured to go F2P. They are a business, you know? Don't go thinking that it's the people who make the game that decide the financial matters; it's their shareholders that will force that issue if they aren't happy with their returns.

^ This ^

As long as the shop sticks with vanity items that have no gameplay-affecting properties, then I'm fine with it.

Those who object to it, vote with your wallets - keep them shut. Ignore the shop. The choice is there.

Sarenia

AlienSlof wrote: »

As long as the shop sticks with vanity items that have no gameplay-affecting properties and continue to add nice appearance items to the game, instead of making everything new cash shop only, then I'm fine with it.

Fixed in bold.

Invincible

I'm OK with vanity items (like horses) being in the shop, so long as they A don't shove them down my throat with a pop up every time I log in. And B don't graduate to xp boosters, locked boxes etc. Nothing kills a game faster for me than lockbox key spam.

Laerian

I want to be optimistic and take the palomino horse as an option for those who don't want to pay $20 for the Imperial Edition or don't like the white horse. Not as an open window to flood the game with cash shop items.

I don't like how overpriced is the basic horse; basic horses should cost 2-3k. I know this is to push IE and palomino sales. That is how cash shop focused games work.

Sarenia

Laerian wrote: »

I want to be optimistic and take the palomino horse as an option for those who don't want to pay $20 for the Imperial Edition or don't like the white horse. Not as an open window to flood the game with cash shop items.

I don't like how overpriced is the basic horse; basic horses should cost 2-3k. I know this is to push IE and palomino sales. That is how cash shop focused games work.

Well 17-42k does seem like a lot for a steed, but for all we know, that's only a moderate sum at higher levels.

Maybe they just want to encourage steeds to be a prestige commodity. A luxury that higher levels can afford, and impatient people can cough up money for. Impatience never pays.

Horses are pretty valuable in other TES games as well, assuming one doesn't cheese the game.

gryffon2

But, but I wanna pay to win! hehe Just teasing. I think they looked at WoW and saw how they're making moola from selling all the various vanity items, mounts, pets, toons with bigger tatas. Oh wait that was that hentai game, never mind. Still you get the point.

You can get a horse ingame, these are just horses of a different color. Now if they add significant speed, stamina or carry cap then I could see people getting annoyed.

Teiji

So they should remove the horse from the shop and give absolutely everyone a horse in their in-game mail?

Something which is entirely optional. We're also "free to play" this game, we're also "free" to leave the house, work, get educated and so on and so forth.

I genuinely don't understand why people take stuff like this so personally and seem to get offended by it. This is me being sincere and with humility, I really don't understand and couldn't care if I wanted too.

I wish you all the utmost happiness that you all deserve and so on. Please, don't develop headaches and migraines from thinking to hard on these things. Your brain is amazing, don't waste storage space and processing power.

Edit: This hardly seems like the appropriate forum area to have this anyway, shouldn't you have placed your original post in Developer Discussion? Hardly seems fair to have off-topic threads in the "Players helping Players" area, when this thread does no such thing.

Left_Hand

What worries me about the item store is that it launched with the game with items already on sale. This kind of approach means that they are planning to develop the store as one of their income focuses and who knows what they will be adding if the sub numbers dont turn out as they expect.

In subscription games i'm against any kind of ingame store that is not selling solely services like character renames and transfers. Even cosmetic items should be exclusively something that you get ingame.

Yankee

Hirion wrote: »

If it's vanity stuff no. If it's game changing stuff like consumables that are more powerful than ingame ones, or unique to store then ZoS will have a problem.

Pretty much this.

Sarenia

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/elder-scrolls-online-s-subscription-based-model-is-the-right-decision/1100-6418686/