Well, it depends which 8v4 you're talking about. If you're talking about 8v4 in Chaosball, thats just how the mode is supposed to be played, and I loved it. It was so much better than this 3 chaosballs, transformations nonsense. Remember those close matches where every single player used to gun for the ball, and it kept switching hands, and ultimates kept going off, and no one knew who was going to win? Those were WILD. I assume you're referring to the extreme, horrible situation of 8 people not fighting each other at all, and spawncamping the softest team, yes? My revamping suggestions were all made thinking about the worst case scenarios for every mode. You could help me refine them further.Maybe you need to reread what I wrote since there seems to be some kind of a communication error. You can polish a ****, but it'll still be a **** - you cannot fix fundamental problems.
Unless you don't consider it a problem that two teams are focusing one team and causing an unfair situation to occur for the team being 8v4'd - if someone wants this kind of an experience they can go to Cyrodiil where everyone is free to form a ball group and run after outnumbered players.
...and this here is more copium. You don't get "increased" rewards in 4v4, it is the only way to get those rewards - and 4v4 queue is significantly longer than the 8v8 queue despite only requiring 8 people per match rather than 16, so I don't know what you're going on about "vast majority".
The chances of a victory for a newcomer also aren't at all higher in 4v4 than they are in 8v8 - they're literally 50/50. Saying this as someone who farmed the whole Galeskirmish Gladiator style playing 7 different characters.
The problem is, the chances for a top PvPer are also too close to a 50/50 in 4v4 - if you get into the team with people who don't know what they're doing and you have people who know how to push half their buttons in the opponent team, you are going to lose that battleground - period.
As a PvE player who has often flirted with the idea of putting a toe into PvP, doing a battleground every so often or dragging a pack full of siege weapons out to Cyrodiil when the curiosity strikes me, I find this discussion fascinating.
The loudest, most insistent voices in this thread are overtly characterizing new PvPers (like me) or casual PvPers as either problems or targets. As are the PvPers who are silly enough to believe that the objectives presented by the description of the game mode were actually the real objectives.
(I'm sorry, I didn't know I wasn't really supposed to be trying to capture the flag in Capture the Flag.)
The discussion isn't so much "how to make the PvP community bigger," it's "how do we get rid of the problem of all these casuals and newbs messing up our games?"
DaniimalsSF wrote: »BGs suffer from trying to make all of the different PvPAs a PvE player who has often flirted with the idea of putting a toe into PvP, doing a battleground every so often or dragging a pack full of siege weapons out to Cyrodiil when the curiosity strikes me, I find this discussion fascinating.
The loudest, most insistent voices in this thread are overtly characterizing new PvPers (like me) or casual PvPers as either problems or targets. As are the PvPers who are silly enough to believe that the objectives presented by the description of the game mode were actually the real objectives.
(I'm sorry, I didn't know I wasn't really supposed to be trying to capture the flag in Capture the Flag.)
The discussion isn't so much "how to make the PvP community bigger," it's "how do we get rid of the problem of all these casuals and newbs messing up our games?"
Keep playing. Don't let people on a forum or in game intimidate you. I would recommend you stick to 8v8 for now. It's more forgiving than 4v4 and the best thing the game has to bring in and retain new players since they removed the three team format, which was even more forgiving, but is gone now. Two thirds of players could get rewards and sometimes all three teams did. Also, individual lack of skill was less obvious. Three teams made it so folks vould ease into bgs without being overwhelmed. 8v8 is supposed to do that now. I think.
As for the complaints on the forums. I dont know you, but I imagine you do not like dying 20-30-40 or more times and respawning... maybe you do. But probably not. That's not fun for most. Neither is killing the same inexperienced player over and over and over... Again, for most players. Some enjoy this for whatever reason.
What most of us would like, i think, is balanced competitve bgs and an mmr system that doesn't put you, a pve player, in a 4v4 with 6 or 7 extremely skilled veteran players, just because you queue for 4v4 over and over and over chasing some leaderboard and or reward. Your mmr should go up because of skill. Not volume. The current mmr system appears to be based on volume, which introduces imbalance into competitve bgs and that isn't fun for anyone, imho.
Instead. If you find you enjoy bgs, you should be able to queue for 4v4 and be matched with similarly skilled players in 4v4 and slowly work your way up the mmr ladder. You might still get your face melted off from time to time, but it would likely be far less discouraging and a much more fun adventure. And. In the end, you might become a die hard bg fan like the rest of us. That's far less likely to happen with this new format as it is implemented today and why alot ofnus are expressing concerns. We love the game. I hope, for the sake of all of us who do love this game, zos sees the light and makes changes.
Again. Keep playing.
As a PvE player who has often flirted with the idea of putting a toe into PvP, doing a battleground every so often or dragging a pack full of siege weapons out to Cyrodiil when the curiosity strikes me, I find this discussion fascinating.
The loudest, most insistent voices in this thread are overtly characterizing new PvPers (like me) or casual PvPers as either problems or targets. As are the PvPers who are silly enough to believe that the objectives presented by the description of the game mode were actually the real objectives.
(I'm sorry, I didn't know I wasn't really supposed to be trying to capture the flag in Capture the Flag.)
The discussion isn't so much "how to make the PvP community bigger," it's "how do we get rid of the problem of all these casuals and newbs messing up our games?"
I'm another 10+ year tryhard that's trying to advocate for getting more casuals into PvP. I've posted in a lot of these BGs threads that the 8v8 solo is the best way to do that. The teams are big enough to carry weaker players, zerg down healbots, and still leave room for skill expression, making it a great place for casuals to learn alongside tryhards.The loudest, most insistent voices in this thread are overtly characterizing new PvPers (like me) or casual PvPers as either problems or targets.
3)Two-Teams Custom Lobbies (4v4, 8v8, 3v3, 2v2, XvX)
Dragonnord wrote: »3)Two-Teams Custom Lobbies (4v4, 8v8, 3v3, 2v2, XvX)
Custom lobbies never please. People will obviously exploit them (meaning completing the lobbies only with friends or people they agreed with) for points, achievements, xp gaining, ap gaining, etc., etc., etc.
Custom lobbies never, unless achievements, xp, ap, etc., nothing in fact, counts there and they are just for fun.
As a PvE player who has often flirted with the idea of putting a toe into PvP, doing a battleground every so often or dragging a pack full of siege weapons out to Cyrodiil when the curiosity strikes me, I find this discussion fascinating.
The loudest, most insistent voices in this thread are overtly characterizing new PvPers (like me) or casual PvPers as either problems or targets. As are the PvPers who are silly enough to believe that the objectives presented by the description of the game mode were actually the real objectives.
(I'm sorry, I didn't know I wasn't really supposed to be trying to capture the flag in Capture the Flag.)
The discussion isn't so much "how to make the PvP community bigger," it's "how do we get rid of the problem of all these casuals and newbs messing up our games?"
DaniimalsSF wrote: »BGs struggle because they are trying to put these two groups together and make them play the same game. In my experience it seems about 50% of the time I get a relatively balanced match in 8v8, 25% I’m stomping people, and 25% I’m being stomped. I rarely queue 4v4 as it feels boring and not dynamic at all, but that’s just me.
I made a new healer build to grind medal score (I normally play a bruiser) to get on the weekly leaderboards only for the Galeskirmish Gladiator style pages. I only need to do this for three more weeks, then I'm dropping BGs for good, since the two-team format is absolutely exhausting and awful to play with the current state of PvP balancing.It's now enjoyed by an even smaller minority, and the rest is after transmutation geodes.I have also seen it, for 7 years - and for 7 years I've been saying BGs in this game could actually be a popular form of PvP in this game as well, rather than an activity only enjoyed by a small minority.
The facts are that BGs did not have enough player base and this is why you saw ZOS make changes necessary to revitalize it.
Dragonnord wrote: »3)Two-Teams Custom Lobbies (4v4, 8v8, 3v3, 2v2, XvX)
Custom lobbies never please. People will obviously exploit them (meaning completing the lobbies only with friends or people they agreed with) for points, achievements, xp gaining, ap gaining, etc., etc., etc.
Custom lobbies never, unless achievements, xp, ap, etc., nothing in fact, counts there and they are just for fun.
Major_Mangle wrote: »Custom lobbies would obviously come with 0 rewards attached to them...
Well, it depends which 8v4 you're talking about. If you're talking about 8v4 in Chaosball, thats just how the mode is supposed to be played, and I loved it. It was so much better than this 3 chaosballs, transformations nonsense. Remember those close matches where every single player used to gun for the ball, and it kept switching hands, and ultimates kept going off, and no one knew who was going to win? Those were WILD. I assume you're referring to the extreme, horrible situation of 8 people not fighting each other at all, and spawncamping the softest team, yes? My revamping suggestions were all made thinking about the worst case scenarios for every mode. You could help me refine them further.Maybe you need to reread what I wrote since there seems to be some kind of a communication error. You can polish a ****, but it'll still be a **** - you cannot fix fundamental problems.
Unless you don't consider it a problem that two teams are focusing one team and causing an unfair situation to occur for the team being 8v4'd - if someone wants this kind of an experience they can go to Cyrodiil where everyone is free to form a ball group and run after outnumbered players....and this here is more copium. You don't get "increased" rewards in 4v4, it is the only way to get those rewards - and 4v4 queue is significantly longer than the 8v8 queue despite only requiring 8 people per match rather than 16, so I don't know what you're going on about "vast majority".
The chances of a victory for a newcomer also aren't at all higher in 4v4 than they are in 8v8 - they're literally 50/50. Saying this as someone who farmed the whole Galeskirmish Gladiator style playing 7 different characters.
The problem is, the chances for a top PvPer are also too close to a 50/50 in 4v4 - if you get into the team with people who don't know what they're doing and you have people who know how to push half their buttons in the opponent team, you are going to lose that battleground - period.
Every single time I have said ''increased rewards'' I was referring to the rewards we have now for BGs in general, compared to what they were in the old BGs, which were essentially non-existent.
If your question is: ''If they are only after the rewards, as you say, then why not queue into the 4v4 instead of the 8v8? The 4v4 has that additional Galersomething Gladiator style reward after all.''
As bad as 8v8 is, I did find it strange that 4v4 didn't immediately die. Now it makes sense. Some people are farming something that can only be obtained in there. Anyway, to answer the question: newcomers know that 8v8 is the way to go by now. Their individual contribution is more diluted than in the 4v4. More people. More chaos. Shorter queues. Still a horribly lopsided torture, but less cartoonishly terrible than the 4v4 in every way.
Necrotech_Master wrote: »
i dont think i ever remember having those kind of fights with the 4v4v4 chaosball matches outside of when BGs were released in 2017
before the change to 2 teams, majority of chaosball matches devolved into cheese factories of super tanks holding the ball in the most obtuse to fight at locations using the geometry of the map to get into nearly unreachable locations (this was like 80% of my chaosball matches in the past year before the change to 2 teams)
DaniimalsSF wrote: »In my experience it seems about 50% of the time I get a relatively balanced match in 8v8, 25% I’m stomping people, and 25% I’m being stomped. I rarely queue 4v4 as it feels boring and not dynamic at all, but that’s just me.
I don't think they're underestimating anything, I think what those who were so bothered by the third-partying don't understand that some people genuinely found that aspect fun and thought of it as one of the things that made BGs engaging.xylena_lazarow wrote: »The 3-sided enjoyers are vastly underestimating how bad it feels to get third-partied by troll players, especially for a casual player just trying to do their objective and get their rewards. You need significantly more field awareness in 3-sided, and even then, you can't account for players that shoot their own team in the foot just to troll.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »I just queued into 4v4 solo for the first time today and got 3/4 of the same people on the other team three times in a row, along with me and three randos on my team.
Can there really only be 8-10 people queueing for 4v4 solo now? It's 7pm on the east coast...
This situation just keeps gett9ng worse. Not better.
Thumbless_Bot wrote: »I just queued into 4v4 solo for the first time today and got 3/4 of the same people on the other team three times in a row, along with me and three randos on my team.
Can there really only be 8-10 people queueing for 4v4 solo now? It's 7pm on the east coast...
This situation just keeps gett9ng worse. Not better.
Wild speculation incoming! So, is MMR functioning? Is ones MMR broadly or narrowly defined? Do we fall into broad MMR categories or narrow ones? How many categories of MMR are there? Is it a sliding scale? What I'm getting at here is, is it possible those players were MMR ranked the same as you and is that why you keep seeing each other? That would imply a few things such as narrowly defined MMR and/or a player count so low its the best the ranking system could manage. Neither of those are good things.
Next topic!
Everyone talks about Bg participation/population being small and references queue times as proof of this, in other words "My queue time is long because there aren't enough people queueing to play"... but is this true? It would only take 48 people to fill the available spots on every team in every Bg format at the same time. Forty Eight. That's it. To have two instances of each Bg type running at the same time is only 96 people. And nobody is playing 8v8 group, in all of this discussion I've yet to see a single person reference 8v8 group and tend to think that's a dead queue. So now spread your 48 players across three Bg queues instead of four. There is no way the PvP population is that low. No way. Between the "community" and the people getting their daily/endeavor in, the casuals, there is no way there are not enough players to pop Bg's one right after the other. Unless--- its the system itself that's the issue? Unless MMR is preventing matches from filling and starting because its trying so hard to "match" you up with like players? Unless the queueing program itself is at fault and its just molasses-in-winter slow? I dont think its the population, I think its the system, the new system implemented with the new battlegrounds with the new queue time problems. 4v4v4 never behaved this way.
So to those of you saying we don't have the population to support multiple queue types I disagree. The queue was just fine, and populated, and fast before update 44. I think its the system, not the players. And so, as has been said before and will be said again, I'd like to see 4v4v4 (at the very least the solo queue) brought back in addition to the 8v8 solo and two 4v4 queues. There are absolutely enough people to support them all.
P.S., the word "queue" was used 12 times in this post