vDSR - absolutely horrid runs (update: it gets better)

code65536

DenverRalphy wrote: »

When someone links an achievement into chat, the preview shows the result from the perspective of the person looking at it no? If I didn't have the achievement and you do, and I link it, you'll see it as complete.

No. A linked achievement shows that achievement from the perspective of the linker, and all viewers of that linked achievement will see the same thing.

That having been said, linking achievements is not always helpful because it doesn't show whether or not someone understands how the mechanics work. I specify "link ach" in the Group Finder runs that I create on EU, and there are people who linked them who clearly did not understand how the mechanics work. Which is not terribly surprising, since if you're in a group where there are enough other people who know and can do the mechanics, you can just follow the group, do damage, and not understand what actually happened mechanics-wise. This is especially true for DDs and healers. It's usually harder for a tank to get through without knowing what to do, but still not unheard of.

It's gotten to the point where I don't bother actually checking if people who join link or not, because the link doesn't really tell me much. But I still say "link ach" in the Group Finder listing to signal to people what my expectations are and to provide justification if I need to take corrective actions (e.g., I kicked someone who wiped the group with Deluge three times despite being called out for it and given instructions after the first time).

And of course, you can also also easily fake a link. Which is something that I've done myself a number of times (when trying to join a PUG on an alt account that hasn't gotten the clear yet, but I'm okay with faking the link since I know what I'm doing).

Soarora

nbksaske wrote: »

Before I did my very first Vdsr clear, I watched loads of mechanic videos that visually told me what to do (the first boss is the worst)
If ZOS could somehow make a system or a box come up that asks a player "you haven't been here before, would you like to see what to do on this boss" then is brought to the help section that has text and a video of what to look out for.
Probably would be a headache to implement, but I believe it would be beneficial, to newer and older players.

In some ways, mechanics are solid— like you can’t have the bubbles ram into each other. But how mechanics are dealt with is community-based and changes over time. Many strategies that are common now are probably things ZOS never even thought of.

CoronHR

people can and do link fake links. i check them for fun, just to see if i can spot one. when someone links one with the exact same clear date as a previous linker, then i'll tell the trial leader. i suppose they could be friends and they cleared it on the same day, or it's a coincidence, but i tend to be sceptical.

i've also seen people link the link, but the link's greyed out because they haven't done it yet! how honest of them (stupid)

JiubLeRepenti

I've done vDSR at least 20+ times, and always as healer, and in PUGs (don't have any time for rosters).

From my perspective, both healers always have to share dome together until the group splits in two. And even after that, each heal should be part of the rotation for its own group.

Ofc tank may take it to clean adds before the first boss jumps down at the very beginning.

This is at least how I've always done it.

And yea the trial has some "group buster" mech that can make it shatter. But I don't think it's the worst one. I prefer running vDSR in a PUG rather that vMOL, vHOF or vCR+1/+2/+3.

Particulary:

1. vMOL twins ;
2. vHOF Reassembly Commitee ;
3. vCR and its last boss, when ppl keep ressing cursed players and OS themselves.

And also a special mention for vRG second boss, when a dd decides to nuke half of the group with the curse

JiubLeRepenti

CoronHR wrote: »

people can and do link fake links. i check them for fun, just to see if i can spot one. when someone links one with the exact same clear date as a previous linker, then i'll tell the trial leader. i suppose they could be friends and they cleared it on the same day, or it's a coincidence, but i tend to be sceptical.

i've also seen people link the link, but the link's greyed out because they haven't done it yet! how honest of them (stupid)

You can't always spot a fake achiev by the date.

It's very, VERY easy to get the code for an achiev through a method I'll certainly won't explain here. And from there, you can assign the date you want. This is how I passed certain trials years ago (and ofc I knew the mechs by heart).

Also, I almost got kicked from a vCL PUG because I had the achiev from the release date (June 3 2024). Everybody thought it was a fake but it wasn't. I passed it the very first day with a PUG, took us hours lol.

sarahthes

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

CoronHR wrote: »

people can and do link fake links. i check them for fun, just to see if i can spot one. when someone links one with the exact same clear date as a previous linker, then i'll tell the trial leader. i suppose they could be friends and they cleared it on the same day, or it's a coincidence, but i tend to be sceptical.

i've also seen people link the link, but the link's greyed out because they haven't done it yet! how honest of them (stupid)

You can't always spot a fake achiev by the date.

It's very, VERY easy to get the code for an achiev through a method I'll certainly won't explain here. And from there, you can assign the date you want. This is how I passed certain trials years ago (and ofc I knew the mechs by heart).

Also, I almost got kicked from a vCL PUG because I had the achiev from the release date (June 3 2024). Everybody thought it was a fake but it wasn't. I passed it the very first day with a PUG, took us hours lol.

I believe I ran 30 farm runs of vLC in the first week starting on the launch date LOL. If someone questioned me I'd probably throw hands at this point.

Tenn60

CoronHR wrote: »

Tenn60 wrote: »

I would put that issue more on the group lead. When you are doing a pug group you really can’t ask for a parse, can’t control the gear your tanks/healers are running(outside of kicking and replacing until you get the right set up). Yes people should have some idea what they are doing before joining in a perfect world, but eso doesn’t do a great job explaining the differences in content and some people genuinely come in thinking it’s going to be like taking on a world boss or something like that. In the good pug groups I’ve run whoever is leading takes control and even more so when things seem like they are chaotic and falling apart. They assign roles and make sure people know what they are doing. And they also usually can tell quickly whether or not we are getting through and will end the run sooner rather than after 4-5 hours on the twins. If you want an organized run the only solution right now is to join a guild and try to at least build out most of your pug group with people you know(especially in the support roles) and roll the dice on DDs. I always go into a pug run with low expectations and try to use it as a test for where I’m at, can I tank and sustain with less synergies and support than normal, while still keeping everything under control, can I keep people alive that constantly stand in stupid when I’m healing, can you help make up for lower dps. If your assuming people are going to know/follow mechs in a pug run or be able to execute them in the right way you will be disappointed 99% of the time.

people who join link achieves. i know those aren't terribly meaningful, but everyone's linking one, or they get kicked. still, lots of players are clueless. they probably know some basics, but have never had to really deal with domes, reefs or bridges. so they don't know how to jump in and make a save. and so they're not very strong. anyhoo...

Ok, so again that is up to the lead to figure out. Ask questions and explain mechs. Designate people to roles. It is hard, and the mechanics are vitally important. Some people may be learning still and they are taking that shot and giving it a go. A lot of people that are very good at the endgame stuff forget that they weren’t always very good. If people don’t have a way to attempt some of the content, you eventually won’t have anyone to run with because you aren’t replacing the old players who leave because they get bored with new players that want to learn and get to the point they are very good. Again if you want to get through quick unfortunately pug groups aren’t a sure thing, your not going to get through them all and just like in your post below some don’t even make it into the trial. I guess I’m just a little confused on your expectations for pug groups. Dungeons, trials, even pvp if someone is keeping the group semi under control and people are listening to call outs and know what they are doing even with “weaker” players they go ok. But most pug groups I’ve been in no one really wants to lead until things are already starting to go bad. Anyways hope you find good groups the rest of the event and it gets easier for you to get through them!

Jaimeh

The problem with vDSR is not only that it's mechanically heavy--all DLC trials are--it's that it has more fights that can be run-breaking for PUGs; for instance in vLC the most likely fight to destroy a PUG is the mirror boss, in vDSR it can be the twins, the reef boss and the last boss as well. Also, the fact that the very first boss fight can break a PUG run means that you usually have people leaving the group from the first boss and you have to play catch up with the group finder.

nbksaske

Soarora wrote: »

nbksaske wrote: »

Before I did my very first Vdsr clear, I watched loads of mechanic videos that visually told me what to do (the first boss is the worst)
If ZOS could somehow make a system or a box come up that asks a player "you haven't been here before, would you like to see what to do on this boss" then is brought to the help section that has text and a video of what to look out for.
Probably would be a headache to implement, but I believe it would be beneficial, to newer and older players.

In some ways, mechanics are solid— like you can’t have the bubbles ram into each other. But how mechanics are dealt with is community-based and changes over time. Many strategies that are common now are probably things ZOS never even thought of.

Oh no doubt the WR speed running groups have the most optimal strategy, but this thread is about pugging (from my understanding)
As I said if a baseline help section with visual mechanics is available in game, that would be a good thing for the community, not just for DSR, but for all trials.

katanagirl1

sarahthes wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Ugh, I am trying to get up the nerve to try a ndsr group finder run now that I don’t have a trials group. I would like to do it but will probably talk myself out of it. We were progging it on vet but months of getting almost through the twins fight and then having it fall apart was soul-wrenching.

nDSR is not in the same ballpark as vet. You will be fine

Yeah, I have done it many times but with a group I ran with for years. Doing it with randoms is a little intimidating, but I don’t have a choice now. I saw a couple runs listed in group finder today but they filled before I could get in.

Pelanora

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Doing it with randoms is a little intimidating, but I don’t have a choice now. I saw a couple runs listed in group finder today but they filled before I could get in.

Reading this late at night..... thought you'd said
Saw a couple of nuns in group finder today


DSR getting weirder and weirder

Yudo

Group finder can work well. A good group lead will ask for positions and roles and usually that is a good indication. Simply linking achievement and then a ready check is a no go for me. Also try assign roles before you start so you don't end up waiting another hour at first boss If you know your roles well, volunteer and be back up for everything. Better to carry a few slackers than spend more time.

Blood_again

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Yeah, I have done it many times but with a group I ran with for years. Doing it with randoms is a little intimidating, but I don’t have a choice now. I saw a couple runs listed in group finder today but they filled before I could get in.

It is not as horrible as surprising. It is good to lower your expectation from group in a half or more, when you run with PUG after your const party. It may help you not to die of cringe.
Anyway, when you expect pug players to do very stupid things, eventually you'll find somebody will do even more slupid things. It is ok )
On the other hand, you can learn new interesting and useful tricks from PUG if you watch and listen carefully. Just because summary PUG players' experiences are usually way more diverse than an average guild/const player's one.

katanagirl1

Pelanora wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Doing it with randoms is a little intimidating, but I don’t have a choice now. I saw a couple runs listed in group finder today but they filled before I could get in.

Reading this late at night..... thought you'd said
Saw a couple of nuns in group finder today


DSR getting weirder and weirder

Ha ha, that would be a good one, like when Mizzik Thinderboots was showing up in weird places for people for whatever reason.

TheAgentNZ

CoronHR wrote: »

just horrid. maybe 3-4 players use domes. everyone else is scared or just doesn't. all 12 players need to know domes, and reefs, and bridges. and all the other mechs. sheesh. pug life really bad with this trial

Pug life is a gamble on getting a positive return on your invested time.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.

tgsprehe_ESO

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

That's what you get if you allow to ignore vast majority of mechs in normal. The garden of bad habits.

This. I wish normal trials didn't let groups skate by without mechanics so much. I'd love to get some practice on normal, but the opportunity just isn't there. Not having a guild for vet trials, I PUG in GF with a friend, and we can do most content. But even knowing the mechanics in theory, vDSR did not go well for us.

sarahthes

tgsprehe_ESO wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

That's what you get if you allow to ignore vast majority of mechs in normal. The garden of bad habits.

This. I wish normal trials didn't let groups skate by without mechanics so much. I'd love to get some practice on normal, but the opportunity just isn't there. Not having a guild for vet trials, I PUG in GF with a friend, and we can do most content. But even knowing the mechanics in theory, vDSR did not go well for us.

There are a few large community discords that do not require guild membership on each of the servers, that run vet trials socially fairly frequently and generally clear. Less commitment than a guild, more successful than gf. I suggest seeking these out.

MorganaLaVey

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Doing it with randoms is a little intimidating, but I don’t have a choice now. I saw a couple runs listed in group finder today but they filled before I could get in.

Pelanora wrote: »

Reading this late at night..... thought you'd said
Saw a couple of nuns in group finder today

T-t-the nuns were filled before she could get in.
I guess Doing it with randoms is intimidating...

Blood_again

Well, now I can see that my previous "4/4 successful runs" was just luck
My weekend counter is 7/15. OP, I feel your pain.

Honestly, I evaluate some of the failed runs as not so useless. For instance, during one of those runs at least one player have learnt the interruption role and two more - doing the reefs.
It was not waisting my time, if you ask me. I remember the West Weald event: some players just parsed vLC mobs at the beginning, but confidently did mechanics a week later.
I find it awesome.

IncultaWolf

Did another vDSR run in group finder with all pugs, we cleared within an hour and it was honestly one of the best/fun runs I've ever done. Didn't even need voice coms or discord either, mechanics were communicated in text chat for people who didn't know them, and nobody wiped on the final boss.

Blood_again

Also I learnt a new trick on the first boss.
If one player confused the rune mechanic with Siroria's Roaring Flare, he can suddenly kill almost half a group, including a tank, a healer, a dome-keeper and himself. In good faith, I believe.
Really, I've never expected such a bombing in this encounter. I've just burnt

CoronHR

update 2: yesterday's run was amazing. maybe with time players are realising that either they can do it and shall, or can't do it and are giving up

Renato90085

yesterday i run a gf vdsr MT
some many ppl only wait someone carry them
in first boss we need 2 dd and 2tank bash boss because other 6 dd just wait and stand..
when we clean first stage
2boss join combat they still not take dome or res die ppl
when they give up and leave we finished in 30 min...

Gabriel_H

code65536 wrote: »

And, yea, I think that's a problem. Because regular vet non-HM should be more accessible for these kinds of runs. And DSR is definitely an outlier compared to the trials that came before and after.

vDSR is less of a PuG killer than vMoL or vLC.

Gabriel_H

sarahthes wrote: »

Nope. It links your achievement, including the date you cleared it.

... but doesn't tell you what role, character, build you did it with, or whether they bought it for gold.

Gabriel_H

One thing that a lot of PuGers overlook - voice chat. Even experienced groups struggle without quick communication, especially when something starts to go wrong, and quick action can avert disaster; because the trials have been designed that way, but ZOS in their infinite wisdom decided not to have built-in voice chat.

Blood_again

Gabriel_H wrote: »

vDSR is less of a PuG killer than vMoL or vLC.

It is controversial.

vLC is more about keeping things in order. But it is way more forgiving to a single mistake like missing the mechanic or carpeting somewhere in bushes.
vMoL requires good positioning on 2 of 3 bosses. Also it is unforgiving for runners, which I found harder.
While vDSR is easier for runners, it requires runners on 2 bosses. Also good positioning is required on all 3 bosses.

More than that, 2 of 3 vDSR bosses allow bombing the group by a single reckless player. I found it a real PUG bender.
Single headless chicken on vMoL twins or Xoryn is not so devastating.

Among all 9 bosses the vDSR twins are the champions in variety of critical roles required in one encounter, if you ask me.
Also combination of "interrupt=proper dome", "dome conflict" and "dome cooldown" moments makes a recovery on them extremely hard, even with voice chat coordination. One wrong dome in a wrong place may block a possible saving.
I can't remember any other encounter so critical to some types of a single mistake.

IncultaWolf

Gabriel_H wrote: »

One thing that a lot of PuGers overlook - voice chat. Even experienced groups struggle without quick communication, especially when something starts to go wrong, and quick action can avert disaster; because the trials have been designed that way, but ZOS in their infinite wisdom decided not to have built-in voice chat.

PC issue. Console versions of eso have built in voice chat in-game.

sarahthes

Blood_again wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

vDSR is less of a PuG killer than vMoL or vLC.

It is controversial.

vLC is more about keeping things in order. But it is way more forgiving to a single mistake like missing the mechanic or carpeting somewhere in bushes.
vMoL requires good positioning on 2 of 3 bosses. Also it is unforgiving for runners, which I found harder.
While vDSR is easier for runners, it requires runners on 2 bosses. Also good positioning is required on all 3 bosses.

More than that, 2 of 3 vDSR bosses allow bombing the group by a single reckless player. I found it a real PUG bender.
Single headless chicken on vMoL twins or Xoryn is not so devastating.

Among all 9 bosses the vDSR twins are the champions in variety of critical roles required in one encounter, if you ask me.
Also combination of "interrupt=proper dome", "dome conflict" and "dome cooldown" moments makes a recovery on them extremely hard, even with voice chat coordination. One wrong dome in a wrong place may block a possible saving.
I can't remember any other encounter so critical to some types of a single mistake.

What doesn't help is that organized groups often skip the backyard/back room mechanics. So there are a lot of people with tons of clears under their belt who never had to do those mechanics, because the damage is so high it's unnecessary. Then these very experienced raiders go into a pug and there's no alkosh, no horns... Can't make the skips and then you're trying to learn mechs on the fly from others who also barely understand them.

Gabriel_H

Blood_again wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

vDSR is less of a PuG killer than vMoL or vLC.

It is controversial.

Yes/No. Is it up for debate which trial is worse on PuGs ... yeah sure. Is it up for debate that vDSR is (as the comment I was repsonding to said) an outlier, not really.