Poll: Do players have the right to do endgame on their choice of class and role?

katanagirl1 · November 5

I can’t really vote for this one as I see both points. I also play arcanist, it is the only class my old fingers can do anymore for longer periods of time.

I think fundamentally each class should bring something to the table for end-game content and be viable. Ultimately, in group content like trials you should be willing to fill the role that the lead needs you to fill, though.

ZhuJiuyin · November 5

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I think fundamentally each class should bring something to the table for end-game content and be viable.

This is exactly what most players want.
But the reality is that only a few classes are lucky enough to provide services for Stam Arc and become Stam Arc's support dps. Most classes, even NB or Sorc with 130K, have difficulty being the main dps in the end-game.
This is why when we open the log ranking, we see a lot of green. Because Stam Arc has made the situation out of control, even more serious than the original DK. In U34, we can at least see the magic or stam versions of all classes appearing in the top 100 of the damage rankings. But now, well, you know.

BlueRaven · November 5

In pve there is a pretty wide disparity amongst the classes.

You can’t tell a new player who made a nb perhaps and leveled it up, that they lost the endgame slot the moment they chose their class.

Yeah, there will always be a meta, but the problem now is that the classes aren’t even that close.

Cooperharley · November 5

Of course you do, just like group leaders for difficult content have a choice at who to invite. If you decide to play a dragonknight healer that’s amazing! Have fun! But if there are choices that make the group’s life easier in the most difficult content, naturally groups will gravitate towards that.

BXR_Lonestar · November 5

Poll is biased because there is only yes or no, and not "other" available. I would vote other because it depends on the circumstances. If you are going just to get the completion and you have high DPS on other characters, by all means, play what you want. The only caveat there is if you are with a sweaty group that wants to maximize group buffs, you may need to run what the group needs you to run in order to maximize the group buffs.

HOWEVER, if you are going for score runs, trifecta's, etc. and you need maximum DPS in order to achieve your goal, and you know a particular class is head and shoulders above the rest, then your going to need to play that particular character to get it done.

Nothing is wrong with either approach. You just need to set your expectations accordingly.

peacenote · November 6

I'm not one to blindly defend ZOS (check my post history about AwA if you doubt me!), but this feels a bit unfair of an assumption about the direction of the game.

ZOS has been trying to address longtime complaint about making the game more "accessible" to people who can't weave (and aren't open to playing tank or healer roles). As others have noted, they started with the Oakensorc mythic and then they released the Arcanist class. The Velothi mythic is also mixed in there - I forget exactly when that was released.

As it so happens, now they have been wildly successful with their goal.

I believe ZOS is right to be cautious about nerfing the Arcanist because they can't know how many people are using the Arcanist just because it puts up good numbers and wish they could use something else vs. how many people are using it because it's more accessible. They should care about nerfing the class too much and causing people who have been enjoying end game to no longer be able to compete. Especially since the population isn't as large as it used to be. Plus, there was definitely a period of time where people wanted to Arc because it was something different to do. What they should do is slowly work towards buffing the other classes and then you'll see the diversity return. I have definitely heard people recently talk about how they'd like to start using their other classes again, and I am seeing some people starting to do this. But I hope the Arcanist remains competitive and doesn't get nerfed into the ground because many people (including me) enjoy it.

ALSO.... there is PvP, you know.

I don't think the class distribution in PvP is so Arcanist heavy and I personally do not enjoy PvP-ing with my Arcs.

The Arc era will eventually end. I just hope that ZOS handles this transition more gently than has been done in the past!

Jaimeh · November 6

peacenote wrote: »

What they should do is slowly work towards buffing the other classes and then you'll see the diversity return.

It's been a year and a half since Necrom how much more slowly should they work to bring other classes on par? I'd prefer buffs to other classes than nerfs, but I don't think a class that has the easiest and simplest rotation should also hit the highest numbers and have great mitigation and sustain baked in as well. The output should be analogous to the input. The way that people you mentioned would hate being locked out of endgame, is the same way as the people who get lock out of HM/score/trifectas for wanting to bring another class. It's turning a blind eye because one half is satisfied.

Taril · November 6

peacenote wrote: »

I believe ZOS is right to be cautious about nerfing the Arcanist because they can't know how many people are using the Arcanist just because it puts up good numbers and wish they could use something else vs. how many people are using it because it's more accessible.!

You're assuming that the only possible outcome is to nerf Arcanist though.

That is not the case. You can buff other classes UP to competing with the highly prolific classes (Classes plural because Arc is not the only dominant class. DK Tanks and Warden Healers are both very dominant right now)

Nerfing Arc doesn't fix anything. Even if it gets dumpstered to the point of uselessness, it's not suddenly going to make NB or Templar good DD's. It's not going to make Cro or Sorc anything more than a token set proc. Healers will continue to be mostly Wardens... The only real difference is that DK will be the best Tank AND best DPS so maybe you see more Cro/Sorc tanks because of DK Tanks swapping to DPS (While Warden/NB/Templar Tanks will still be undesired)

The core of the problem is that the few actual differences between classes (Since they all have the same stats, the same gear, the same plethora of non-class skills) are significant enough to cause these discrepancies.

Like, the most notable thing is Arc and its godly cleave capabilities because Laser Beam is unlike any other class skill in that it does like a bajillion damage against all targets in a massive area.

Warden Healers provide so many buffs and debuffs, while other healers bring... Just heals (And DK doesn't even bring that...)

The devs seem to be putting more emphasis on trying to fix the shoddy balance between class skills by way of Scribing. But such a thing isn't working properly because of how limited it is (For a start, trying to get Major and Minor Breach like Warden can provide in a single skill, requires 2 scribed skills because of arbitrary limitations). Or is outright buffing the already good classes (Such as how Arcs are now able to use Banner to generate their Crux)

Naftal · November 6

Yes you have the right to play with anything you want but no you don't have the right to force other players to play with you.

The poll is very biased and I think OP is in the wrong by making this post in the first place.

katanagirl1 · November 7

Jaimeh wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

What they should do is slowly work towards buffing the other classes and then you'll see the diversity return.

It's been a year and a half since Necrom how much more slowly should they work to bring other classes on par? I'd prefer buffs to other classes than nerfs, but I don't think a class that has the easiest and simplest rotation should also hit the highest numbers and have great mitigation and sustain baked in as well. The output should be analogous to the input. The way that people you mentioned would hate being locked out of endgame, is the same way as the people who get lock out of HM/score/trifectas for wanting to bring another class. It's turning a blind eye because one half is satisfied.

I would love to have other classes brought up to the same level rather than arcanist get nerfed hard too. It’s nice to be able to play without having your hand hurt so bad, though unfortunately I have to still minimize my time doing rotations. They should make the other classes more accessible too. Otherwise more players will end up like me when they get older, unable to make a fist with their right hand in the morning because of tendinitis and unable to use their right index finger because of trigger digit that locks up the joint.

wolfie1.0. · November 7

You can take any class build style into a vet trial as it is. You may not clear it. But you can take one in. You can always make that choice.

Just like I can travel from Los Angeles to New York city, but I'm going to have a longer trip depending on mode of transportation. Walking is going to take significantly longer than flying but it still can be done.

Tannus15 · November 7

ZoS chose to make a whole heap of nerfs to all classes back in Update 35 (and earlier) to cut down on the effectiveness of their AOE damage.
for a long time this was their philosophy and then they designed a class that 100% went against this and didn't do anything at all with the other classes.

i mean, this is change history for lightning splash

Lightning_Splash

if lightning splash once did 1000 damage per tick, it now does 403. The primary AOE skill of the Sorcerer is so weak that literarily no one uses it.
This was a bitter pill to swallow at the time, but at least it was consistent. ZoS had a "vision" for combat and removing cleave damage was core to that. All classes has their skills gutted in a similar manner. Just ask a nightblade about twisting path.

But the arcanist is the exact opposite. It's all cleave!

here is a pretty typical arcanist DD parse on Yolnah, one of the most single target friendly fights in the game

Could you imagine a sorc, templar or nightblade running aoe options for this fight and it not being a dps loss?
It makes literally no difference to an arcanist how many targets there are, there are no "choices" to make. The only choice is "should i swap deadly for azureblight".
The funny thing is, I don't have a problem with that, let there be an easier to play, less complicated class. Sure. But why is it ALSO out performing all other classes in all scenarios? It's madness.
And now the banner has made THINGS WORSE. Arcanist is the ONLY class that wants to run the banner. It's a huge dps buff for an arcanist to run the banner, and they are so easy to play that the 33% sustain nerf associated with the banner isn't even noticeable.
They are still running BI-STAT FOOD FFS.

The current state of PvE "balance" is a joke right now. It's not even close. it's not "well, this class is technically stronger by 2% to 5% so the score pushers are using it, but elsewhere it's fine to run whatever".

The current state is arcanists are just better, by a lot.

Orbital78 · November 7

It is unfortunate that they tend to nerf the classes and builds people most enjoy as a way to balance. Rather than making others more viable. IMO they really need to take a year off from adding new content and revamp the hundreds of sets. Some would be much more viable like adding a line of heavy attack damage to some of the sets that add empower. Open up the option for more non-oakensoul heavy attack builds. I do miss the old heavy attack "even" kill splash damage for farming. I understand they couldn't find an easy way to fix the PVP problem to they decided the easiest option was to just gut the ticks. It is just disappointing as so many people enjoy that playstyle, rather than being pigeon holed into the less intuitive light attack meta.

ApoAlaia · November 7

For me Arcanist is the 'spiritual successor' to the stamplar of yore.

I'm quite happy that it exists in its current form because I cannot play a high APM class for any length of time without noticeable negative consequences.

I need a box to stand on for the playing field to be level and Arcanist currently fills that role nicely.

moderatelyfatman · November 7

ApoAlaia wrote: »

For me Arcanist is the 'spiritual successor' to the stamplar of yore.

I'm quite happy that it exists in its current form because I cannot play a high APM class for any length of time without noticeable negative consequences.

I need a box to stand on for the playing field to be level and Arcanist currently fills that role nicely.

Definitely not a case of nerfing the arcanist but buffing all the other classes. Nightblade lovers (with their fancy rotations) should be able to join endgame content with everyone else.

katanagirl1 · November 7

Orbital78 wrote: »

It is unfortunate that they tend to nerf the classes and builds people most enjoy as a way to balance. Rather than making others more viable. IMO they really need to take a year off from adding new content and revamp the hundreds of sets. Some would be much more viable like adding a line of heavy attack damage to some of the sets that add empower. Open up the option for more non-oakensoul heavy attack builds. I do miss the old heavy attack "even" kill splash damage for farming. I understand they couldn't find an easy way to fix the PVP problem to they decided the easiest option was to just gut the ticks. It is just disappointing as so many people enjoy that playstyle, rather than being pigeon holed into the less intuitive light attack meta.

Heavy attack builds are just as bad as light weaving for me. You are abusing one finger and making it work harder compared to the rest. I am now unable to even run vMA on a heavy attack Oakensoul build.

moderatelyfatman · November 8

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

It is unfortunate that they tend to nerf the classes and builds people most enjoy as a way to balance. Rather than making others more viable. IMO they really need to take a year off from adding new content and revamp the hundreds of sets. Some would be much more viable like adding a line of heavy attack damage to some of the sets that add empower. Open up the option for more non-oakensoul heavy attack builds. I do miss the old heavy attack "even" kill splash damage for farming. I understand they couldn't find an easy way to fix the PVP problem to they decided the easiest option was to just gut the ticks. It is just disappointing as so many people enjoy that playstyle, rather than being pigeon holed into the less intuitive light attack meta.

Heavy attack builds are just as bad as light weaving for me. You are abusing one finger and making it work harder compared to the rest. I am now unable to even run vMA on a heavy attack Oakensoul build.

I'd have no problem if the combat devs said: "We know that build x or set y is a bit overtuned right now, but since it isn't affecting 99% of the playerbase we're going to keep things the way they are right now."

Vaqual · November 8

Naftal wrote: »

Yes you have the right to play with anything you want but no you don't have the right to force other players to play with you.

The poll is very biased and I think OP is in the wrong by making this post in the first place.

This is the only correct answer.
(including of course everyone who said the same)

Jaimeh · November 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

But the arcanist is the exact opposite. It's all cleave!
here is a pretty typical arcanist DD parse on Yolnah, one of the most single target friendly fights in the game
Could you imagine a sorc, templar or nightblade running aoe options for this fight and it not being a dps loss?
It makes literally no difference to an arcanist how many targets there are, there are no "choices" to make. The only choice is "should i swap deadly for azureblight".
The funny thing is, I don't have a problem with that, let there be an easier to play, less complicated class. Sure. But why is it ALSO out performing all other classes in all scenarios? It's madness.
And now the banner has made THINGS WORSE. Arcanist is the ONLY class that wants to run the banner. It's a huge dps buff for an arcanist to run the banner, and they are so easy to play that the 33% sustain nerf associated with the banner isn't even noticeable.
They are still running BI-STAT FOOD FFS.

This is a superb example you brought in Tannus, and anyone who plays DPS and has tried the Arcanist will appreciate how much more everything it is compared to other classes right now that it verges on the ridiculous (the bi-stat food bit made me laugh because yup... they can even flex that

).

sarahthes · November 8

Jaimeh wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

But the arcanist is the exact opposite. It's all cleave!
here is a pretty typical arcanist DD parse on Yolnah, one of the most single target friendly fights in the game
Could you imagine a sorc, templar or nightblade running aoe options for this fight and it not being a dps loss?
It makes literally no difference to an arcanist how many targets there are, there are no "choices" to make. The only choice is "should i swap deadly for azureblight".
The funny thing is, I don't have a problem with that, let there be an easier to play, less complicated class. Sure. But why is it ALSO out performing all other classes in all scenarios? It's madness.
And now the banner has made THINGS WORSE. Arcanist is the ONLY class that wants to run the banner. It's a huge dps buff for an arcanist to run the banner, and they are so easy to play that the 33% sustain nerf associated with the banner isn't even noticeable.
They are still running BI-STAT FOOD FFS.

This is a superb example you brought in Tannus, and anyone who plays DPS and has tried the Arcanist will appreciate how much more everything it is compared to other classes right now that it verges on the ridiculous (the bi-stat food bit made me laugh because yup... they can even flex that ).

Just wanted to comment here - arcanist is NOT the only class running banner, and is getting outparsed and outcleaved in some content by banner cros in corpseburster, of all things.

Starting to hear chatter about necros pushing dks out of some rosters...

Orbital78 · November 8

Corpseburster looks like a fun set and I almost have the parts to reconstruct it. Fun set... oh gosh it is going to be killed soon isn't it? j/k hopefully not. I could see many people using banner tbh, not just arcanists.

peacenote · November 9

Jaimeh wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

What they should do is slowly work towards buffing the other classes and then you'll see the diversity return.

It's been a year and a half since Necrom how much more slowly should they work to bring other classes on par? I'd prefer buffs to other classes than nerfs, but I don't think a class that has the easiest and simplest rotation should also hit the highest numbers and have great mitigation and sustain baked in as well. The output should be analogous to the input. The way that people you mentioned would hate being locked out of endgame, is the same way as the people who get lock out of HM/score/trifectas for wanting to bring another class. It's turning a blind eye because one half is satisfied.

Speaking as someone who has mained a templar since beta, and it is not currently welcomed in any of my trial groups and as such is essentially sitting on a shelf, I would agree that they are behind at lifting up the other classes.

We all know that we should expect at least six months of OP-ness when a new class is rolled out, because of the profit factor, so by now we're a little bit past when we'd normally see the nerf hammer, so when I said slowly I really more was coming from a place where I'd like to see incremental tweaks and buffs to the other classes, as opposed to a sledgehammer approach. I wasn't so much commenting on time elapsed. Probably I should have said "carefully" instead of slowly.

Taril wrote: »

You're assuming that the only possible outcome is to nerf Arcanist though.

Oh definitely not assuming that. Advocating for the opposite. I am however concerned that if the negative narrative continues on arcanist without nuance, that this is what will happen because it is one of the most common plays in the ZOS playbook and in some ways it even makes sense because the nerfs better combat power creep.

Orbital78 wrote: »

It is unfortunate that they tend to nerf the classes and builds people most enjoy as a way to balance. Rather than making others more viable.

Exactly.

"Play the way you want" is a balance between choosing individual attributes of your character for your own enjoyment vs. choosing what will be the most optimal setup for a successful outcome. While some people are wishing they could play another class, some are using an arcanist because they enjoy it! So, I just think it's really important to be clear that ideally we'd like more classes to bring value, as opposed to having the value of an arcanist in a group be reduced.

Lastly, though, I guess a big portion of my response and commentary on this has been a direct reaction to this phrase in the opening post: "Because right now it looks like ESO has moved towards other MMOs with the 'one class, one role' approach?" I just don't think they are doing that and as a result I think the premise of the poll is flawed.

I think this because I have a long view, having seen the warden, the necro, and the now the arcanist be released. Having been here when templar was the top tier healer. When necro was desired as a healer at all. :P The meta comes and goes, and I just don't believe that the heavy use of arcanist is a result of ZOS trying to eliminate use of other classes or go in that direction. I more think that they were more successful with the arcanist class than they even intended, and they may not know exactly how to carefully step back from that without ruining what's good about the situation. It also may be that the class is still driving too many profits as new players join the game and they are trying to continue to cash in for as long as possible.

Over everything else, I know that they know that changing up the meta is good for business. And a sea of green does not convince me that they have strayed from that business model long term. This too shall pass.

Neugeniko · November 9

Just stick with the zenkosh DK and start whispering each of the arcanists that 12% of their dps is rightfully yours. When a new meta primary dps comes along you can whisper them too.

endorphinsplox · November 9

Poor choice of wording for the poll and the answers. Its not a "right", because its a group run activity. You earn your spots, you earn your clears, by being good at the game. ZOS introduced the kiddie pool for endgame content with Oakensoul, nerfed the entire playerbase just to compensate, then made a second kiddie pool with Arcanist that simply outperforms everything with minimal effort.

Does this mean you can't take a Stamblade (arguably the least useful DPS class rn) and go get SS, GS, or whatever else? Of course not, but it does affect your chances of getting into a run. Of course, elitists who refuse to take certain classes (usually due to their own inability to adapt strategies to fit any group comp) bear a lot of the blame for this problem, but the bulk of guilt lies with Zenimax and their constant catering to toxic casuals who think they should be able to get Gryphonheart without paying for a carry, OR learning how to play at a higher level.

Even just removing the damage cap for Light Attacks that they added ages ago could help other classes make up some of the gap between them and Arcanist/Oakensorcs since those classes don't utilize LAs nearly as much. That said, I don't think its enough to fix the issue. Removing the crit damage cap could also be useful for these higher skill ceiling classes. Another idea is to make Fatecarver a single target skill that functions similarly to a Lightning Staff Heavy Attack where it deals damage around the target, rather than just having a huge beam of death that melts anything it touches. Its like a Zaan beam with better range, more consistency and WAY more damage.

For the record, I tend to play every class. I run a group of highly skilled players without requiring them to build the most optimal setups for their roles, because we've all gotten excluded or even kicked out of runs because raid leads refuse to teach classes they don't understand. One of our main tanks is a Templar, which is widely considered the worst tanking class. I agree with that sentiment, certainly, but we still get trifectas because the player is willing to learn and push and our team is patient with one another. I main stamblade DPS, and while my class/spec is in a really bad spot overall, I tend to outdamage almost every player I come across, and can get those difficult achievements as well. And its our adaptability and synergy that allows us to take any player who's willing to spend the time and learn the mechanics to go get any content clear they want.

But even with our success as a team, we've all become a little disenfranchised with how ZOS treats this community and this game's design goals.

tl;dr: you don't have a right to get clears, you do need skill, but elitists and ZOS are killing this game and community

ArchMikem · November 9

*Yes

So long as you're good at your class and role. You can play the game however you want, just as long as you're pulling your weight. I've done Trials with some real basic setups before without issue, because I've been learning how to get the most out of them.

oldbobdude · November 9

Not sure if you’re asking “do I have the right to play as I want” or “other players don’t have the right to not want to play with me”.