Poll: Do players have the right to do endgame on their choice of class and role?

moderatelyfatman

Hello All,
A guildie of mine posted this breakdown of the classes in vet trials from ESO Logs. You may notice a slight imbalance in the classes used in most raid makeups...


My question is this: do we as players and customers have a 'right' to take whatever class we want, in whatever role we want, and complete endgame content? Because right now it looks like ESO has moved towards other MMOs with the 'one class, one role' approach?

There are some caveats of course:

1.You still have to have a meta build and the skill to go along with it
-Not supporting players with 4 pieces of Julianos and using 1 skill every 3 seconds between light attacks.

2. I'm not advocating making every class the same or perfectly balanced in content.
-I just think that a player with sufficient skill on the lowest ranked dps class should perform no worse than 5% less than the same player on the highest dps class (in content, not parsing). Likewise with healing and tanking.

spartaxoxo

It's not even Arcanist in general. It's specifically Stam ones.

moderatelyfatman

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's not even Arcanist in general. It's specifically Stam ones.

Totally agree.
I don't know if it's visible, but DK (0.74%) healers appear for frequently than NB or Warden dps (0.55%).
DK dps appear slightly more often (17%) than simply support ZenKosh (12.5%), so that class might be doing ok as dps.
EC Cro and MKsorc don't seem to be as common as before.
Templar appears to be a specialist executioner class?

LunaFlora

yes we do.

AnduinTryggva

If I were a cynical and would imagine the world to be cynical as well I would assume that they have created the arcanist, put it behind a paywall and then decided to create fights where the arcanist ist just excelling with its star treck laser beam and huge range of its tentacles. They just have to press a few buttons and then swivel around while all the others have to run around like chicken.

But I am not a cynical, so I think they just want to have a class many want to have and which provides a lot of fun. Part of that fun is to have excellent damage with some casuality in it. That is just the trend we have overall.

What I dislike is the let down with respect to the other classes.

In my raid, all but two dds play arcanists, we have warden healers, don't know about the tanks, I think a necro and a dk.

With all that uniformity they could just as well delete some classes.

pklemming

Raid leads and guilds can choose who and what the makeup of their teams are. You have zero choice in the matter.They are there to win, using less optimal setups reduces the chance of that because Timmy wants to roleplay a necro.

If this is an issue, go find a non-endgame raiding guild.

bmnoble

Isn't that up to the other 11 people your in a group with, if they know you well enough and that you can perform well on X class, they should have no issue with you using that class in vet.

As for leader board/score pushing runs, where people will go towards the meta set ups to optimise for the best results possible, they likely have other people willing to play ball and will leave you on the bench nothing ZOS can do about that nothing to do with them, they can't force people to play together.

The meta won't stay static, if ZOS feels the Arcanist is over performing which to me looking at those charts screams giant nail sticking out waiting for the nerf hammer to fall, Arcanist will get nerfed and another class will take it's place eventually.

moderatelyfatman

pklemming wrote: »

Raid leads and guilds can choose who and what the makeup of their teams are. You have zero choice in the matter.They are there to win, using less optimal setups reduces the chance of that because Timmy wants to roleplay a necro.
If this is an issue, go find a non-endgame raiding guild.

The fact that raid leads need to specify the makeup of their teams is the issue here.
If there wasn't such a huge disparity in dps between classes (in content), raid leads could simply say: "we need another 4dps with 100k+ parses" for this raid.

@bmnoble I don't see the Arcanist getting nerfed any time soon: too many players will quit. A lot of players quit after the Oakensoul nerf when they decided it wasn't worth the time and effort to go to a harder class for the same returns.
I also don't have an issue with one class or another being first, just that the others are so far behind.

Sarannah

To be fair, stamina arcanist isn't overpowered. The fact so many players use an arcanist shows that all classes should be that easily accessible. Because my guess is, the only reason players flock to arcanists, is because they are easy and non-stressful to play. This graphic shows barely anyone really wants to barswap/weave/animation cancel/etc.

PS: ZOS needs to stop nerfing every update.

Taril

With how the game is set up, with it's "Play what you want" design and paid character specific upgrades, there is an expectation that all classes are viable for all content with all roles being a possibility.

There's also evidence that this is supposed to be the design too. What with all classes having some sort of skill tree that lends itself towards a particular role (More noticable in the DLC classes which has very defined "DD" "Tank" and "Healer" skill lines while base classes are more higgledy piggledy with skills and passives all over the place) as well as the plethora of neutral skill lines to supplement various roles (Weapon skills, Guild skills and the recent Skill Scribing)

Of course, there will always be a statistical best choice that will be used by the min-max crowd looking to push the best times.

However, the base goal of a game would be that all classes can compete in end game content and that meta isn't required to participate in content (Via both having other options being close enough to not be considered non-viable AND also by not tuning encounters so that only peak performance can even beat them)

Overall, there seems to be significant discrepancies in classes.

Not only the obvious "StamArc is 90% of DPS" but you also notice the dominance of Warden healers and DK tanks (Though at least Necro and Sorc Tanks are also reasonably popular). To say nothing about the fact that Arcanist is the only class with a noteworthy representation in all 3 roles (With DK being the only other class that sees much play in more than 1 role)

Silaf

As a sorcerer i want obviously to play a magicka class but as you can see i'm pratically forced into stamina and to lose half of the skill morphs to accomodate stamina.

AnduinTryggva

pklemming wrote: »

Raid leads and guilds can choose who and what the makeup of their teams are. You have zero choice in the matter.They are there to win, using less optimal setups reduces the chance of that because Timmy wants to roleplay a necro.

If this is an issue, go find a non-endgame raiding guild.

Uhm, this is NOT the point of discussion. The POINT of discussion is here that ZOS makes the classes such that one class or more specifically ONE build outshines the others so that raid leads naturally will act as you describe.

Hapexamendios

You can play whatever you want. Getting other people to group with you is the problem.

INM

Sarannah wrote: »

To be fair, stamina arcanist isn't overpowered. The fact so many players use an arcanist shows that all classes should be that easily accessible. Because my guess is, the only reason players flock to arcanists, is because they are easy and non-stressful to play. This graphic shows barely anyone really wants to barswap/weave/animation cancel/etc.

PS: ZOS needs to stop nerfing every update.

People on top of leaderboards don't care about accessibility, they will use whatever is more effective, in this case arcanists are just broken to ignore that.

Sarannah

INM wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

To be fair, stamina arcanist isn't overpowered. The fact so many players use an arcanist shows that all classes should be that easily accessible. Because my guess is, the only reason players flock to arcanists, is because they are easy and non-stressful to play. This graphic shows barely anyone really wants to barswap/weave/animation cancel/etc.

PS: ZOS needs to stop nerfing every update.

People on top of leaderboards don't care about accessibility, they will use whatever is more effective, in this case arcanists are just broken to ignore that.

Or maybe because of the arcanist's accessibility there are more players doing endgame because that class is so accessible. Players who otherwise wouldn't be able to touch upon endgame activities.

The only way to really know this for sure, is to have all classes be more easily accessible like the arcanist. Give them all a builder like crux, and a channeled ability like fatecarver to do damage with. (this is something I feel ZOS should do anyways, to make all classes more accessible)

Meiox

Sarannah wrote: »

INM wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

To be fair, stamina arcanist isn't overpowered. The fact so many players use an arcanist shows that all classes should be that easily accessible. Because my guess is, the only reason players flock to arcanists, is because they are easy and non-stressful to play. This graphic shows barely anyone really wants to barswap/weave/animation cancel/etc.

PS: ZOS needs to stop nerfing every update.

....

The only way to really know this for sure, is to have all classes be more easily accessible like the arcanist. Give them all a builder like crux, and a channeled ability like fatecarver to do damage with. (this is something I feel ZOS should do anyways, to make all classes more accessible)

whats the point of different classes if all works the same?

moderatelyfatman

Sarannah wrote: »

INM wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

To be fair, stamina arcanist isn't overpowered. The fact so many players use an arcanist shows that all classes should be that easily accessible. Because my guess is, the only reason players flock to arcanists, is because they are easy and non-stressful to play. This graphic shows barely anyone really wants to barswap/weave/animation cancel/etc.

PS: ZOS needs to stop nerfing every update.

People on top of leaderboards don't care about accessibility, they will use whatever is more effective, in this case arcanists are just broken to ignore that.

Or maybe because of the arcanist's accessibility there are more players doing endgame because that class is so accessible. Players who otherwise wouldn't be able to touch upon endgame activities.

The only way to really know this for sure, is to have all classes be more easily accessible like the arcanist. Give them all a builder like crux, and a channeled ability like fatecarver to do damage with. (this is something I feel ZOS should do anyways, to make all classes more accessible)

The issue of the arcanist being dominant isn't a matter of accessibility but outright damage. It can parse as high as any class on a dummy but most of the damage is AOE in a game where cleave is essential. No other class has this ability (although the DK comes a distant second) to cut down minis while simultaneously hitting the main boss. The beam also lets arcanists bypass or simplify certain mechanics such as the crystals in the Cloudrest portals.

Just look at the participation numbers for dps nightblade and warden (0.55%), the damage output in actual content for these two classes is so low that they do no meet the requirements for endgame. Necro gets through as a support dps and templar for execution phases.

Renato90085

I think the main reason is that single target damage is less important than AOE.
i can use khajiit nb parse 130k but i only have st dmg
but arc can parse 120k ,only low 10k and have best aoe dmg
you still can play stam nb in dsrhm
but you only good in lastboss do st dmg
other 95% time you just a trash...
if you want nb/sorc/warden can do endgame
only way is buff them aoe or nerf arc st dmg
if arc cant skip mech
endgame need st class
but i think meta just back dk/necro (2nd aoe and good st dmg class

o_Primate_o

Sarannah wrote: »

INM wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

To be fair, stamina arcanist isn't overpowered. The fact so many players use an arcanist shows that all classes should be that easily accessible. Because my guess is, the only reason players flock to arcanists, is because they are easy and non-stressful to play. This graphic shows barely anyone really wants to barswap/weave/animation cancel/etc.

PS: ZOS needs to stop nerfing every update.

People on top of leaderboards don't care about accessibility, they will use whatever is more effective, in this case arcanists are just broken to ignore that.

Or maybe because of the arcanist's accessibility there are more players doing endgame because that class is so accessible. Players who otherwise wouldn't be able to touch upon endgame activities.

The only way to really know this for sure, is to have all classes be more easily accessible like the arcanist. Give them all a builder like crux, and a channeled ability like fatecarver to do damage with. (this is something I feel ZOS should do anyways, to make all classes more accessible)

Arc is broken. AOE burst damage returns health? AOE channel gives you shield (in lieu of evasion or protection which it ought to be)? I dislike playing arc but when I run trifectas, it's our go-to. Sometimes four arcs (T + 3 ddd) in 4man tri. It's almost as boring as playing HA Sorc.

HatchetHaro

I voted yes. That being said, there will always be a meta class and build that is considered the "best" that most people will run. No game developer can truly solve that problem; better balancing will only make the differences slightly less pronounced.

ESO Logs is also biased in what it represents, as most groups that log trials are far more serious about doing that content, and you're then missing a lot of data on more casual or pug groups that don't really care about optimization.

colossalvoids

You have and you can. What you can't however is to dictate other organised groups how you want to play. If a group asks for a specific thing you either do bring it or you do make your own group with yours expectations.

JanTanhide

I think a lot of this is due to the Trial Leaders forcing or "convincing" those in their Trial groups to run certain classes and certain gear sets.

This is one reason I stopped running serious Trials long long ago. When the group leader says "You must run XYZ gear and KLP Skills or you won't be in MY Trial group" that was enough for me.

Ingenon

This is a game. Play games however you like.

Want to be in a progression trial group (PvE endgame)? The raid leader has to add you to the group. If there are requirements for the group, you either meet the requirements, or you do not get added to that group.

Other choices: Find another group with different requirements that you can meet, or form your own group.

Posting on these forums (probably) will not change this.

INM

Sarannah wrote: »

Or maybe because of the arcanist's accessibility there are more players doing endgame because that class is so accessible. Players who otherwise wouldn't be able to touch upon endgame activities.

The only way to really know this for sure, is to have all classes be more easily accessible like the arcanist. Give them all a builder like crux, and a channeled ability like fatecarver to do damage with. (this is something I feel ZOS should do anyways, to make all classes more accessible)

You need to have a certain mindset to be able to play on the highest level. These types of players will be pushing an additional button each second for a few extra thousands of DPS. (Bash-weaving, anyone?). A random player won't conquer the leaderboards if you give them a convenient tool. You HAVE TO compete against players who are ready to squeeze every single advantage they could muster if you want to be at the top of the leaderboards, because some players are just hyper-competitive.

By this logic, in U34 all the top spots in the leaderboards should have been populated by oakensoul sorcs, but they weren't simply because oakensoul with all its power in convenience wasn't the best thing available.

LalMirchi

Biased poll options, sorry to say.

NotNi.ya

Different classes provide different advantages. Arc is primarily favored for its strong cleave damage in stacked fights. Raid leaders must consider how to maximize damage, and if that means including 6+ Arc DPS, then that's the thing to do. On the other hand, having 8 Nightblade DPS, for example, would be pain, as their damage output is among the lowest.

your poll choices suck btw.

Elsonso

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

do we as players and customers have a 'right' to take whatever class we want, in whatever role we want, and complete endgame content? Because right now it looks like ESO has moved towards other MMOs with the 'one class, one role' approach?

There are some caveats of course:

1.You still have to have a meta build and the skill to go along with it
-Not supporting players with 4 pieces of Julianos and using 1 skill every 3 seconds between light attacks.

2. I'm not advocating making every class the same or perfectly balanced in content.
-I just think that a player with sufficient skill on the lowest ranked dps class should perform no worse than 5% less than the same player on the highest dps class (in content, not parsing). Likewise with healing and tanking.

What I am seeing in the graph above is that all of the classes are represented and are being used.

Caveat #1... This makes no sense to me. Metas are the player generated best builds. The best. Apex builds. Everything can't be the top of the hill.

Caveat #2... Classes not being the same and perfectly balanced leads to graphs like above. If a particular build is even 1% better than the other builds, it will be 'marketed' as "The Best". It will probably become The Meta and it will dominate the chart.

I did not vote because it appears to me that the OP already has what they want and voting is irrelevant.

Froil

You're likely to see less varied disparity amongst the average player base and classes than at the highest echelons where people acan and will squeeze out every drop even if they all used the same set ups, but of course you're able to use whatever class and setup you want as long as it isn't a liability for your group.

I've used off meta classes like DK healer and I've done fine if not better than people on meta classes of the same skill level, even back in the day when these were garbage.

But of course the more difficult the content, the more mechanics there are, the higher the bosses health and damage output, some classes will fall behind even with the perfect setup for them. It simply comes down to personal choices and whether or not you'll be a liability or asset and these things can and will overlap.

TaSheen

I really have no opinion as I don't do endgame anything. I have some of every class except necro (I never play those in any game) and some of every race except orc, argonian, and nord - I don't have any idea about meta anything: as long as whatever girl I'm on can kill whatever's in her way and get to wherever her goal is, that's about all that's necessary for me.

However, being an otherwise rather opinionated sort, I really do think that everyone who wants to play in organized endgame (non-pvp) should do what the group lead wants as far as clearing/progressing the content. And that's one good reason I don't do endgame! I'm a bludgeon - and I'm only willing to do things my way.

[Now there's a very mixed response to your question from an individual....]

[Oh.... and regardless I had no intent to actually vote - in this case I wouldn't have under any circs. I really wish pollsters would NOT editorialize in such a biased way when setting poll options!]

OtarTheMad

The issue is that leaderboard pushers will use anything to it's advantage to get top scores. I think Arcanist is okay, it may need some minor tweaks here and there but my worst fear is that players get this class (which isn't my main before people say I am trying to save my main class) nerfed too much. This has happened before, with Necromancer and Sorc, and Sorc finally got some major changes and Necro looks like it is finally about to as well. Do we really want to be asking ZOS to buff Arcanist in like 2027 because we asked for heavy nerfs and got them, which ended up killing the class?

If players are having issues getting into a trial or whatever, and they are a good player like mentioned in the OP's post, then I'd say start your own guild and change the way things are. Let people know that your guild accepts players for what they play, as long as they aren't holding back the group... and maybe if they are you teach them to be better. This is how it should be because those players who push scores are always going to use whatever they can to get better scores, so we need to make a new path for others who don't play whatever that is to have a chance to play.

I said this in another post and I'll say it here: Balance to me is you look at your classes skills and each ability can be used, you never say "that ability sucks"... it's "well, I can use that in X situation." That, to me, is balance because you have a ton of different options and each class will have it's strengths and weaknesses and be unique but all abilities are good and useful in a variety of different situations.

tomofhyrule

"The meta" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If one person finds something that can eke out a few more DPS, then everyone who wants to get the most DPS will go for that strategy. Remember when Oakensoul first came out that everyone ran Oakensorcs? And then it was "DK or Bust?" The Meta shifts as people find a 'better' strategy.

But one thing that a lot of people with this complaint forget: ZOS isn't the one who's telling you to play a certain build to do the content. That's the raid leads. If you want to run content with your desired build, then find a raid lead who will allow it (or lead it yourself!)

The one major issue though is that people do need to be willing to play as a group with others. If you show up as a NB MagDPS wearing heavy armor and a sword-and-board, people will naturally bar you from running trial trifectas. You do need to still build appropriate for your class and role. However, people can do the content with any class, it's just a matter of if the group will allow it. Yes, this does get into a bit of the circular "I need to have experience to prove I can do it, but I need to join the runs to get experience," but a good player can complete the content whatever the class is.

The other issue here is ease-of-use. The main reason Arcanist is dominating the DPS scene is that you hit your skills twice (or even once now with the banner bearer) to fill your crux, and then have a 4 second channel that you're not pushing any buttons. And repeat. That's the same reason that Oakensorc was so popular as well, considering that you could just hold down one button. Contrast to NBs, which require a lot of perfect weaving and so many APM, and it's easy to see why one is favored. Here's the spread of APM from the Assembly General fight of my TTT run last week, and it's easy to see that the Arcanists are 'easier' to play than other roles, and then the damage output is the same or better.

Finally, the other thing is how the content is built. A lot of PvE endgame stuff has loads of adds, so AoE damage is always going to have an advantage over single target. Classes like NB don't really have much AoE in their kit, while classes like Arc are almost all AoEs. That's a major reason that classes that can dish out a lot of AoE damage are favored. Again, a really really good player can make anything work, but it's harder.

So as to your specific complaint: No, you don't have to make an Arcanist. But you do need to then prove yourself to people that you can play [insert class here] not only on the level of the arcanists, but better than them. Which means you need to prog trials with friends or guildmates, work on your parsing, and then show that you can do the content at high level even though you're not playing the meta class. And that's gonna take time and practice. You can't expect that someone will just take you in a run just because you ask if they're gonna be able to look at the logs and see your output is half of what others are doing. If you want to play off-meta, you have to prove that you can still compare to the meta.