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Population shrinking, PLEASE do something
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moderatelyfatman✭✭✭✭✭
✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »moderatelyfatman wrote: »
Less chatting in zones and even guilds is something I've noticed from some years back now, along with other people I know. ESO is one of the games with the most dead chat, even compared to so called "less popular" MMOs or ones with smaller servers instead of the "superior" megaserver. And I myself am someone that will only occasionally chat in games.... but even with that being the case, I do know that many people do like to chat in online games and believe dead chats say something about how active a game actually is.Oceanchanter wrote: »
To throw my 5 cents here, as one of those "less chatty players".moderatelyfatman wrote: »I've definitely noticed over the last couple of years that people are a lot less chatty and willing to socialise. I guess the problem with catering more to short term players is that you also take away a lot of incentive for players to stay long term.
I don't know about others, but I've always been playing solo and chat as little as possible for 2 reasons:
I think everyone is scared now that they will say the wrong thing or even type something completely innocent that will trip the AI and get them banned.
I've heard stories of new players getting banned after a few hours of playing because something they said in zone chat or messaged privately because the enforcement here is so much stricter than other MMOs; and never coming back to ESO.
Yes, I completely agree. Using AI to monitor all of the chat options is a low-blow to the community. It's having a chilling effect.
I agree. I used to chat a lot in game, but nowadays I am trying to avoid it when possible.
I very rarely swear and never use slurs, but I've heard of people getting banned for typos, benign jokes and the like. I understand that some level of moderation is needed, but I think that there is a difference between saying something extremely racist/sexist/homophobic and simple banter between friends.
Yeah, Nefas just released a video on that. I won't include the link because it directly mentions a number of incidents which is against the ToS but you can find it on YouTube.Edited by moderatelyfatman on December 16, 2024 11:37AM3 -
manukartofanu✭✭✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I don't play as much anymore because my main is a sorc, I do NOT play MK, and parse sorcs aren't wanted in trials because arcanist is bloody OP.
This is just my opinion but it’s more how the classes are than Arcanist. Players have put the classes in a situation where all of them have the same buffs now, so none are unique. So for leaderboard chasers it’s easy to just stack a HM vet trial with one class. Even if (or when really) Arcanist is overnerfed another class will take its place and then the threads will start on that class.
I stopped playing because of that and recent stuff. Tired of my class (I play all but Magcro is my main) being nerfed because of one part of the game I don’t even play. It’s exhausting.
Arcanist can parse well using three key binds. It's easy to play, hard to mess up, and high damage with a really low skill floor.
Well dummies don't move, and PvE NPC's are dumb enough to let themselves be beamed. Meanwhile in PvP Arcanist is good but not at the top, pretty much in the middle (in my opinion). So nerfing Arcanist will just lead to them being useless in PvP and some other game modes.
This game doesn't revolve around HM-Trifecta-Leaderboard chasing Trials, it has many modes. Arcanist will probably get nerfed (or overnerfed if history repeats) and then all those at the top will just pick a new class to stack to get high numbers. So, anyone sitting around and thinking "Finally, Arc is nerfed so now groups will allow me to play my...." Wrong, unless the main you play is the one they pick anyway.
Other things should change, how NPC's think being one, make them smarter. You could also vary trials mechanics so that it pushes the idea to bring other classes. Just so many things you can do besides the same thing that has been happening for 10 years and has NOT worked at all and has not gotten us closer to any sort of balance. If anything it's gotten us further away because complaints/feedback has put us in a position where all classes have the same buffs pretty much so none are that unique anymore, making it easier to stack. I've been dealing with this for 10 years and I am just tired.
The Arcanist is overpowered in all types of content except PvP, starting from level 1 characters. Leaderboards only confirm that the Arcanist remains overpowered even at the highest levels. I hope it's not up for debate that the Arcanist deals an absurd amount of AoE damage with the press of a single button? The question here is, what's more engaging when you're new to the game: effortlessly annihilating everything around you or putting in at least some effort? The Arcanist specifically allows you to effortlessly dominate everything unrelated to what you see on the leaderboards.
And like I said Arcanist will very likely get nerfed and people will think they won until the score pushing sweats pick another class to stack and that will be at the top and then people will be calling for that class next. It never ends.
You can do the entire game on any class you want, only when you get to the top 5% of the game like HM sweats leaderboard stuff does Arc show that it dominates because of how the game is set up. Thats the real reason it dominates too is because NPC’s are stupid, they don’t dodge or CC break or counter or heal… makes them easy.
Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
This matters because people build their characters based on what they see on YouTube and play the classes they are advised to. The Arcanist has only exacerbated the "put on a ring and don't worry about it" situation, where people first had to farm the ring, to simply "create an Arcanist and don't worry about it." The Arcanist is now the answer to any question about "I can't kill/pass something."
As for statistics, they're collected only by those same 5% of players—though I would even say it's not 5%, but 1%. We work with what we have. I would love to see stats from ZOS showing how many players simply run dungeons (even normals) and what classes are represented there. I have a feeling that half of the DPS in those dungeons are Arcanists. The problem is that an inexperienced Arcanist doesn’t deal 10% more damage than an inexperienced anyone else—they deal twice as much damage.6 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I don't play as much anymore because my main is a sorc, I do NOT play MK, and parse sorcs aren't wanted in trials because arcanist is bloody OP.
This is just my opinion but it’s more how the classes are than Arcanist. Players have put the classes in a situation where all of them have the same buffs now, so none are unique. So for leaderboard chasers it’s easy to just stack a HM vet trial with one class. Even if (or when really) Arcanist is overnerfed another class will take its place and then the threads will start on that class.
I stopped playing because of that and recent stuff. Tired of my class (I play all but Magcro is my main) being nerfed because of one part of the game I don’t even play. It’s exhausting.
Arcanist can parse well using three key binds. It's easy to play, hard to mess up, and high damage with a really low skill floor.
Well dummies don't move, and PvE NPC's are dumb enough to let themselves be beamed. Meanwhile in PvP Arcanist is good but not at the top, pretty much in the middle (in my opinion). So nerfing Arcanist will just lead to them being useless in PvP and some other game modes.
This game doesn't revolve around HM-Trifecta-Leaderboard chasing Trials, it has many modes. Arcanist will probably get nerfed (or overnerfed if history repeats) and then all those at the top will just pick a new class to stack to get high numbers. So, anyone sitting around and thinking "Finally, Arc is nerfed so now groups will allow me to play my...." Wrong, unless the main you play is the one they pick anyway.
Other things should change, how NPC's think being one, make them smarter. You could also vary trials mechanics so that it pushes the idea to bring other classes. Just so many things you can do besides the same thing that has been happening for 10 years and has NOT worked at all and has not gotten us closer to any sort of balance. If anything it's gotten us further away because complaints/feedback has put us in a position where all classes have the same buffs pretty much so none are that unique anymore, making it easier to stack. I've been dealing with this for 10 years and I am just tired.
The Arcanist is overpowered in all types of content except PvP, starting from level 1 characters. Leaderboards only confirm that the Arcanist remains overpowered even at the highest levels. I hope it's not up for debate that the Arcanist deals an absurd amount of AoE damage with the press of a single button? The question here is, what's more engaging when you're new to the game: effortlessly annihilating everything around you or putting in at least some effort? The Arcanist specifically allows you to effortlessly dominate everything unrelated to what you see on the leaderboards.
And like I said Arcanist will very likely get nerfed and people will think they won until the score pushing sweats pick another class to stack and that will be at the top and then people will be calling for that class next. It never ends.
You can do the entire game on any class you want, only when you get to the top 5% of the game like HM sweats leaderboard stuff does Arc show that it dominates because of how the game is set up. Thats the real reason it dominates too is because NPC’s are stupid, they don’t dodge or CC break or counter or heal… makes them easy.
Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
This matters because people build their characters based on what they see on YouTube and play the classes they are advised to. The Arcanist has only exacerbated the "put on a ring and don't worry about it" situation, where people first had to farm the ring, to simply "create an Arcanist and don't worry about it." The Arcanist is now the answer to any question about "I can't kill/pass something."
As for statistics, they're collected only by those same 5% of players—though I would even say it's not 5%, but 1%. We work with what we have. I would love to see stats from ZOS showing how many players simply run dungeons (even normals) and what classes are represented there. I have a feeling that half of the DPS in those dungeons are Arcanists. The problem is that an inexperienced Arcanist doesn’t deal 10% more damage than an inexperienced anyone else—they deal twice as much damage.
Or people could just try out the classes for themselves and see what works for them. The Arc needs some adjustments but I just don’t feel it’s OP based on how average it is in PvP. Let’s be real, overland, delves, public dungeons, dungeons and even some normal trials can be done on anything. The only time you need good dps or anything to worry about is anything vet HM.
Take me for example, I don’t do trials. Arc is real nice, I enjoy the class a lot because of my personal issues it helps. However, I’d rather play my Necro or Sorc because I’ve done more on them, so I have Oakensoul builds on them. I tried out other things and that’s what works for me, that and my Ice build Warden.
I realize people will always go with YouTube builds, nothing wrong with that but people should also just see what else they like.
0 -
Servadei✭✭✭
I stopped chatting in game too because I don't want to get flagged and banned for whatever ZOS finds offensive. It's so weird that so many of us play in a state of fear because of the heavy handed moderation. These forums are the same where so many people are afraid to post. It gets too stressful when you're afraid of angering ZOS so a lot of people just play less and post less then eventually leave.Oceanchanter wrote: »The news about people getting flagged and suspended for private chats due to the automatic system did confirm my fears it's risky to talk other things than business.
12 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I don't play as much anymore because my main is a sorc, I do NOT play MK, and parse sorcs aren't wanted in trials because arcanist is bloody OP.
This is just my opinion but it’s more how the classes are than Arcanist. Players have put the classes in a situation where all of them have the same buffs now, so none are unique. So for leaderboard chasers it’s easy to just stack a HM vet trial with one class. Even if (or when really) Arcanist is overnerfed another class will take its place and then the threads will start on that class.
I stopped playing because of that and recent stuff. Tired of my class (I play all but Magcro is my main) being nerfed because of one part of the game I don’t even play. It’s exhausting.
Arcanist can parse well using three key binds. It's easy to play, hard to mess up, and high damage with a really low skill floor.
Well dummies don't move, and PvE NPC's are dumb enough to let themselves be beamed. Meanwhile in PvP Arcanist is good but not at the top, pretty much in the middle (in my opinion). So nerfing Arcanist will just lead to them being useless in PvP and some other game modes.
This game doesn't revolve around HM-Trifecta-Leaderboard chasing Trials, it has many modes. Arcanist will probably get nerfed (or overnerfed if history repeats) and then all those at the top will just pick a new class to stack to get high numbers. So, anyone sitting around and thinking "Finally, Arc is nerfed so now groups will allow me to play my...." Wrong, unless the main you play is the one they pick anyway.
Other things should change, how NPC's think being one, make them smarter. You could also vary trials mechanics so that it pushes the idea to bring other classes. Just so many things you can do besides the same thing that has been happening for 10 years and has NOT worked at all and has not gotten us closer to any sort of balance. If anything it's gotten us further away because complaints/feedback has put us in a position where all classes have the same buffs pretty much so none are that unique anymore, making it easier to stack. I've been dealing with this for 10 years and I am just tired.
The Arcanist is overpowered in all types of content except PvP, starting from level 1 characters. Leaderboards only confirm that the Arcanist remains overpowered even at the highest levels. I hope it's not up for debate that the Arcanist deals an absurd amount of AoE damage with the press of a single button? The question here is, what's more engaging when you're new to the game: effortlessly annihilating everything around you or putting in at least some effort? The Arcanist specifically allows you to effortlessly dominate everything unrelated to what you see on the leaderboards.
And like I said Arcanist will very likely get nerfed and people will think they won until the score pushing sweats pick another class to stack and that will be at the top and then people will be calling for that class next. It never ends.
You can do the entire game on any class you want, only when you get to the top 5% of the game like HM sweats leaderboard stuff does Arc show that it dominates because of how the game is set up. Thats the real reason it dominates too is because NPC’s are stupid, they don’t dodge or CC break or counter or heal… makes them easy.
Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
This matters because people build their characters based on what they see on YouTube and play the classes they are advised to. The Arcanist has only exacerbated the "put on a ring and don't worry about it" situation, where people first had to farm the ring, to simply "create an Arcanist and don't worry about it." The Arcanist is now the answer to any question about "I can't kill/pass something."
As for statistics, they're collected only by those same 5% of players—though I would even say it's not 5%, but 1%. We work with what we have. I would love to see stats from ZOS showing how many players simply run dungeons (even normals) and what classes are represented there. I have a feeling that half of the DPS in those dungeons are Arcanists. The problem is that an inexperienced Arcanist doesn’t deal 10% more damage than an inexperienced anyone else—they deal twice as much damage.
Or people could just try out the classes for themselves and see what works for them. The Arc needs some adjustments but I just don’t feel it’s OP based on how average it is in PvP. Let’s be real, overland, delves, public dungeons, dungeons and even some normal trials can be done on anything. The only time you need good dps or anything to worry about is anything vet HM.
Take me for example, I don’t do trials. Arc is real nice, I enjoy the class a lot because of my personal issues it helps. However, I’d rather play my Necro or Sorc because I’ve done more on them, so I have Oakensoul builds on them. I tried out other things and that’s what works for me, that and my Ice build Warden.
I realize people will always go with YouTube builds, nothing wrong with that but people should also just see what else they like.
I like trials. I don't get invites as oakensorc. Easy as.
Even my guild has started score runs and stopped doing the casual vet runs they used to do that I loved. I can't get into score runs. The bias is real.
And we're specifically talking pve here.1 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I don't play as much anymore because my main is a sorc, I do NOT play MK, and parse sorcs aren't wanted in trials because arcanist is bloody OP.
This is just my opinion but it’s more how the classes are than Arcanist. Players have put the classes in a situation where all of them have the same buffs now, so none are unique. So for leaderboard chasers it’s easy to just stack a HM vet trial with one class. Even if (or when really) Arcanist is overnerfed another class will take its place and then the threads will start on that class.
I stopped playing because of that and recent stuff. Tired of my class (I play all but Magcro is my main) being nerfed because of one part of the game I don’t even play. It’s exhausting.
Arcanist can parse well using three key binds. It's easy to play, hard to mess up, and high damage with a really low skill floor.
Well dummies don't move, and PvE NPC's are dumb enough to let themselves be beamed. Meanwhile in PvP Arcanist is good but not at the top, pretty much in the middle (in my opinion). So nerfing Arcanist will just lead to them being useless in PvP and some other game modes.
This game doesn't revolve around HM-Trifecta-Leaderboard chasing Trials, it has many modes. Arcanist will probably get nerfed (or overnerfed if history repeats) and then all those at the top will just pick a new class to stack to get high numbers. So, anyone sitting around and thinking "Finally, Arc is nerfed so now groups will allow me to play my...." Wrong, unless the main you play is the one they pick anyway.
Other things should change, how NPC's think being one, make them smarter. You could also vary trials mechanics so that it pushes the idea to bring other classes. Just so many things you can do besides the same thing that has been happening for 10 years and has NOT worked at all and has not gotten us closer to any sort of balance. If anything it's gotten us further away because complaints/feedback has put us in a position where all classes have the same buffs pretty much so none are that unique anymore, making it easier to stack. I've been dealing with this for 10 years and I am just tired.
The Arcanist is overpowered in all types of content except PvP, starting from level 1 characters. Leaderboards only confirm that the Arcanist remains overpowered even at the highest levels. I hope it's not up for debate that the Arcanist deals an absurd amount of AoE damage with the press of a single button? The question here is, what's more engaging when you're new to the game: effortlessly annihilating everything around you or putting in at least some effort? The Arcanist specifically allows you to effortlessly dominate everything unrelated to what you see on the leaderboards.
And like I said Arcanist will very likely get nerfed and people will think they won until the score pushing sweats pick another class to stack and that will be at the top and then people will be calling for that class next. It never ends.
You can do the entire game on any class you want, only when you get to the top 5% of the game like HM sweats leaderboard stuff does Arc show that it dominates because of how the game is set up. Thats the real reason it dominates too is because NPC’s are stupid, they don’t dodge or CC break or counter or heal… makes them easy.
Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
This matters because people build their characters based on what they see on YouTube and play the classes they are advised to. The Arcanist has only exacerbated the "put on a ring and don't worry about it" situation, where people first had to farm the ring, to simply "create an Arcanist and don't worry about it." The Arcanist is now the answer to any question about "I can't kill/pass something."
As for statistics, they're collected only by those same 5% of players—though I would even say it's not 5%, but 1%. We work with what we have. I would love to see stats from ZOS showing how many players simply run dungeons (even normals) and what classes are represented there. I have a feeling that half of the DPS in those dungeons are Arcanists. The problem is that an inexperienced Arcanist doesn’t deal 10% more damage than an inexperienced anyone else—they deal twice as much damage.
Or people could just try out the classes for themselves and see what works for them. The Arc needs some adjustments but I just don’t feel it’s OP based on how average it is in PvP. Let’s be real, overland, delves, public dungeons, dungeons and even some normal trials can be done on anything. The only time you need good dps or anything to worry about is anything vet HM.
Take me for example, I don’t do trials. Arc is real nice, I enjoy the class a lot because of my personal issues it helps. However, I’d rather play my Necro or Sorc because I’ve done more on them, so I have Oakensoul builds on them. I tried out other things and that’s what works for me, that and my Ice build Warden.
I realize people will always go with YouTube builds, nothing wrong with that but people should also just see what else they like.
I like trials. I don't get invites as oakensorc. Easy as.
Even my guild has started score runs and stopped doing the casual vet runs they used to do that I loved. I can't get into score runs. The bias is real.
And we're specifically talking pve here.
And I think that’s sad but it’s one play style, just not for me. Sadly, nerfing Arc won’t solve that problem. They will just follow the leader with whatever class gets picked next. Even if the class you play is picked, someone else won’t get in and that class will get knocked down.
Idk how to fix any of this beyond changing trial mechanics and combat AI and making sure every class has a unique thing they bring and that every trial/dungeon has something where they shine so it makes sense to spread the invites out.
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Ingenon✭✭✭✭✭I like trials. I don't get invites as oakensorc. Easy as.
Even my guild has started score runs and stopped doing the casual vet runs they used to do that I loved. I can't get into score runs. The bias is real.
And we're specifically talking pve here.
Sounds like ZOS can fix this easily. Just undo the nerf to oblivion updates that they did to one bar Oakensoul sorcerer. And then arcanist would have real competition for easy to play and effective PvE DPS. And since I have both an arcanist alt and a sorcerer alt this change would not hurt me at all.
1 -
Franchise408✭✭✭✭✭KromedeTheCorrupt wrote: »ZOS has stated in their own words even if there is a small portion of players on old consoles they would not drop support. So theoretically that also means if they lose 1K players on newer consoles due to hardware limitations, lag, dc, whatever because of old hardware. Thats just how it’s going to be, even if it means keeping those 100 players who still play on old consoles. So it’s a lose/lose situation where everybody else has to suffer because of people still playing old consoles. I mean if you can’t buy a newer system with all due respect why are you playing video games and not working if your finances are that bad.
I mean, even people who can't afford a new console still deserve to have a break from work.
And even then, there are still people who maybe could afford it, and do enjoy playing games, but don't play enough to prioritize buying a new system.
There's a million reasons why someone might still be playing on older consoles.4 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭moderatelyfatman wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Would be great if they just said ESO 2 is around the corner because ESO has run it's course being 10+ years old with no game engine update.
I keep hearing this over and over again about ESO being 10 years old and therefore too old to continue.
Then I think about Guild Wars 2 which is 2 years older, Final Fantasy 14 which came out in 2010 and World of Warcraft that is on it's 20th anniversary.
The point is, the latter three games resemble fit and active fifty year olds who can still run marathons: no one is going to mistake them for new games but they still play well and give their playerbase value for money.
In the case of ESO, the lack of care and technical debt has left us with a game that has aged far faster than it should.
The second thing to consider is if ESO2 came out, would you immediately buy it based on your experienced of ESO1? I'm thinking of the damage that a game like Starfield has done to the anticipation of Elderscrolls 6.
Games like WoW and FF 14 have been receiving engine and graphics updates since their launch. ESO looks and runs no better now than it did at launch and in the fact the servers have been having serious issues.3 -
manukartofanu✭✭✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I don't play as much anymore because my main is a sorc, I do NOT play MK, and parse sorcs aren't wanted in trials because arcanist is bloody OP.
This is just my opinion but it’s more how the classes are than Arcanist. Players have put the classes in a situation where all of them have the same buffs now, so none are unique. So for leaderboard chasers it’s easy to just stack a HM vet trial with one class. Even if (or when really) Arcanist is overnerfed another class will take its place and then the threads will start on that class.
I stopped playing because of that and recent stuff. Tired of my class (I play all but Magcro is my main) being nerfed because of one part of the game I don’t even play. It’s exhausting.
Arcanist can parse well using three key binds. It's easy to play, hard to mess up, and high damage with a really low skill floor.
Well dummies don't move, and PvE NPC's are dumb enough to let themselves be beamed. Meanwhile in PvP Arcanist is good but not at the top, pretty much in the middle (in my opinion). So nerfing Arcanist will just lead to them being useless in PvP and some other game modes.
This game doesn't revolve around HM-Trifecta-Leaderboard chasing Trials, it has many modes. Arcanist will probably get nerfed (or overnerfed if history repeats) and then all those at the top will just pick a new class to stack to get high numbers. So, anyone sitting around and thinking "Finally, Arc is nerfed so now groups will allow me to play my...." Wrong, unless the main you play is the one they pick anyway.
Other things should change, how NPC's think being one, make them smarter. You could also vary trials mechanics so that it pushes the idea to bring other classes. Just so many things you can do besides the same thing that has been happening for 10 years and has NOT worked at all and has not gotten us closer to any sort of balance. If anything it's gotten us further away because complaints/feedback has put us in a position where all classes have the same buffs pretty much so none are that unique anymore, making it easier to stack. I've been dealing with this for 10 years and I am just tired.
The Arcanist is overpowered in all types of content except PvP, starting from level 1 characters. Leaderboards only confirm that the Arcanist remains overpowered even at the highest levels. I hope it's not up for debate that the Arcanist deals an absurd amount of AoE damage with the press of a single button? The question here is, what's more engaging when you're new to the game: effortlessly annihilating everything around you or putting in at least some effort? The Arcanist specifically allows you to effortlessly dominate everything unrelated to what you see on the leaderboards.
And like I said Arcanist will very likely get nerfed and people will think they won until the score pushing sweats pick another class to stack and that will be at the top and then people will be calling for that class next. It never ends.
You can do the entire game on any class you want, only when you get to the top 5% of the game like HM sweats leaderboard stuff does Arc show that it dominates because of how the game is set up. Thats the real reason it dominates too is because NPC’s are stupid, they don’t dodge or CC break or counter or heal… makes them easy.
Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
This matters because people build their characters based on what they see on YouTube and play the classes they are advised to. The Arcanist has only exacerbated the "put on a ring and don't worry about it" situation, where people first had to farm the ring, to simply "create an Arcanist and don't worry about it." The Arcanist is now the answer to any question about "I can't kill/pass something."
As for statistics, they're collected only by those same 5% of players—though I would even say it's not 5%, but 1%. We work with what we have. I would love to see stats from ZOS showing how many players simply run dungeons (even normals) and what classes are represented there. I have a feeling that half of the DPS in those dungeons are Arcanists. The problem is that an inexperienced Arcanist doesn’t deal 10% more damage than an inexperienced anyone else—they deal twice as much damage.
Or people could just try out the classes for themselves and see what works for them. The Arc needs some adjustments but I just don’t feel it’s OP based on how average it is in PvP. Let’s be real, overland, delves, public dungeons, dungeons and even some normal trials can be done on anything. The only time you need good dps or anything to worry about is anything vet HM.
Take me for example, I don’t do trials. Arc is real nice, I enjoy the class a lot because of my personal issues it helps. However, I’d rather play my Necro or Sorc because I’ve done more on them, so I have Oakensoul builds on them. I tried out other things and that’s what works for me, that and my Ice build Warden.
I realize people will always go with YouTube builds, nothing wrong with that but people should also just see what else they like.
Let's be real, if you're talking about PvE based on PvP experience, you're just trying to substitute concepts.
The point isn't that the content is impossible to complete — all of it can be done, including all vet HMs, without an Arcanist. The point is that with an Arcanist, it's much easier to do. And when the choice comes down to spending 100-200 hours gaining experience on another class, including practicing on a dummy, or just building an Arcanist and smashing heads right now with minimal effort, most people choose the latter.
Unfortunately, even those who have already spent tons of time learning to play something else are forced to switch to an Arcanist simply because an average Arcanist deals more damage than the best players on other classes. So you're left with no choice but to play one to perform better, making life easier for yourself and everyone else.
The Arcanist in ESO PvE isn’t just OP; it can be used as the very definition of OP.Edited by manukartofanu on December 17, 2024 12:43AM4 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I don't play as much anymore because my main is a sorc, I do NOT play MK, and parse sorcs aren't wanted in trials because arcanist is bloody OP.
This is just my opinion but it’s more how the classes are than Arcanist. Players have put the classes in a situation where all of them have the same buffs now, so none are unique. So for leaderboard chasers it’s easy to just stack a HM vet trial with one class. Even if (or when really) Arcanist is overnerfed another class will take its place and then the threads will start on that class.
I stopped playing because of that and recent stuff. Tired of my class (I play all but Magcro is my main) being nerfed because of one part of the game I don’t even play. It’s exhausting.
Arcanist can parse well using three key binds. It's easy to play, hard to mess up, and high damage with a really low skill floor.
Well dummies don't move, and PvE NPC's are dumb enough to let themselves be beamed. Meanwhile in PvP Arcanist is good but not at the top, pretty much in the middle (in my opinion). So nerfing Arcanist will just lead to them being useless in PvP and some other game modes.
This game doesn't revolve around HM-Trifecta-Leaderboard chasing Trials, it has many modes. Arcanist will probably get nerfed (or overnerfed if history repeats) and then all those at the top will just pick a new class to stack to get high numbers. So, anyone sitting around and thinking "Finally, Arc is nerfed so now groups will allow me to play my...." Wrong, unless the main you play is the one they pick anyway.
Other things should change, how NPC's think being one, make them smarter. You could also vary trials mechanics so that it pushes the idea to bring other classes. Just so many things you can do besides the same thing that has been happening for 10 years and has NOT worked at all and has not gotten us closer to any sort of balance. If anything it's gotten us further away because complaints/feedback has put us in a position where all classes have the same buffs pretty much so none are that unique anymore, making it easier to stack. I've been dealing with this for 10 years and I am just tired.
The Arcanist is overpowered in all types of content except PvP, starting from level 1 characters. Leaderboards only confirm that the Arcanist remains overpowered even at the highest levels. I hope it's not up for debate that the Arcanist deals an absurd amount of AoE damage with the press of a single button? The question here is, what's more engaging when you're new to the game: effortlessly annihilating everything around you or putting in at least some effort? The Arcanist specifically allows you to effortlessly dominate everything unrelated to what you see on the leaderboards.
And like I said Arcanist will very likely get nerfed and people will think they won until the score pushing sweats pick another class to stack and that will be at the top and then people will be calling for that class next. It never ends.
You can do the entire game on any class you want, only when you get to the top 5% of the game like HM sweats leaderboard stuff does Arc show that it dominates because of how the game is set up. Thats the real reason it dominates too is because NPC’s are stupid, they don’t dodge or CC break or counter or heal… makes them easy.
Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
This matters because people build their characters based on what they see on YouTube and play the classes they are advised to. The Arcanist has only exacerbated the "put on a ring and don't worry about it" situation, where people first had to farm the ring, to simply "create an Arcanist and don't worry about it." The Arcanist is now the answer to any question about "I can't kill/pass something."
As for statistics, they're collected only by those same 5% of players—though I would even say it's not 5%, but 1%. We work with what we have. I would love to see stats from ZOS showing how many players simply run dungeons (even normals) and what classes are represented there. I have a feeling that half of the DPS in those dungeons are Arcanists. The problem is that an inexperienced Arcanist doesn’t deal 10% more damage than an inexperienced anyone else—they deal twice as much damage.
Or people could just try out the classes for themselves and see what works for them. The Arc needs some adjustments but I just don’t feel it’s OP based on how average it is in PvP. Let’s be real, overland, delves, public dungeons, dungeons and even some normal trials can be done on anything. The only time you need good dps or anything to worry about is anything vet HM.
Take me for example, I don’t do trials. Arc is real nice, I enjoy the class a lot because of my personal issues it helps. However, I’d rather play my Necro or Sorc because I’ve done more on them, so I have Oakensoul builds on them. I tried out other things and that’s what works for me, that and my Ice build Warden.
I realize people will always go with YouTube builds, nothing wrong with that but people should also just see what else they like.
Let's be real, if you're talking about PvE based on PvP experience, you're just trying to substitute concepts.
The point isn't that the content is impossible to complete — all of it can be done, including all vet HMs, without an Arcanist. The point is that with an Arcanist, it's much easier to do. And when the choice comes down to spending 100-200 hours gaining experience on another class, including practicing on a dummy, or just building an Arcanist and smashing heads right now with minimal effort, most people choose the latter.
Unfortunately, even those who have already spent tons of time learning to play something else are forced to switch to an Arcanist simply because an average Arcanist deals more damage than the best players on other classes. So you're left with no choice but to play one to perform better, making life easier for yourself and everyone else.
The Arcanist in ESO PvE isn’t just OP; it can be used as the very definition of OP.
Easier does not mean OP, more used than any other class does not mean OP. People following the leader blindly and not just doing the content does not mean it’s OP. Does it need changes? Sure. Heck, it might speak more to how dungeons and trials are built than how Arc was built.
I am not talking about PvE based on PvP experience. All I have ever said in any post concerning nerfing a class, any, is that every aspect of the game should be taken into consideration.
Arc will get overnerfed, and I say this because ZOS has a history of it. I would love to be wrong but it’ll happen and you all will just see what I mean when I say over and over that nerfing isn’t the answer. Adjusting the stuff I mentioned before might be a good first step.
3 -
manukartofanu✭✭✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I don't play as much anymore because my main is a sorc, I do NOT play MK, and parse sorcs aren't wanted in trials because arcanist is bloody OP.
This is just my opinion but it’s more how the classes are than Arcanist. Players have put the classes in a situation where all of them have the same buffs now, so none are unique. So for leaderboard chasers it’s easy to just stack a HM vet trial with one class. Even if (or when really) Arcanist is overnerfed another class will take its place and then the threads will start on that class.
I stopped playing because of that and recent stuff. Tired of my class (I play all but Magcro is my main) being nerfed because of one part of the game I don’t even play. It’s exhausting.
Arcanist can parse well using three key binds. It's easy to play, hard to mess up, and high damage with a really low skill floor.
Well dummies don't move, and PvE NPC's are dumb enough to let themselves be beamed. Meanwhile in PvP Arcanist is good but not at the top, pretty much in the middle (in my opinion). So nerfing Arcanist will just lead to them being useless in PvP and some other game modes.
This game doesn't revolve around HM-Trifecta-Leaderboard chasing Trials, it has many modes. Arcanist will probably get nerfed (or overnerfed if history repeats) and then all those at the top will just pick a new class to stack to get high numbers. So, anyone sitting around and thinking "Finally, Arc is nerfed so now groups will allow me to play my...." Wrong, unless the main you play is the one they pick anyway.
Other things should change, how NPC's think being one, make them smarter. You could also vary trials mechanics so that it pushes the idea to bring other classes. Just so many things you can do besides the same thing that has been happening for 10 years and has NOT worked at all and has not gotten us closer to any sort of balance. If anything it's gotten us further away because complaints/feedback has put us in a position where all classes have the same buffs pretty much so none are that unique anymore, making it easier to stack. I've been dealing with this for 10 years and I am just tired.
The Arcanist is overpowered in all types of content except PvP, starting from level 1 characters. Leaderboards only confirm that the Arcanist remains overpowered even at the highest levels. I hope it's not up for debate that the Arcanist deals an absurd amount of AoE damage with the press of a single button? The question here is, what's more engaging when you're new to the game: effortlessly annihilating everything around you or putting in at least some effort? The Arcanist specifically allows you to effortlessly dominate everything unrelated to what you see on the leaderboards.
And like I said Arcanist will very likely get nerfed and people will think they won until the score pushing sweats pick another class to stack and that will be at the top and then people will be calling for that class next. It never ends.
You can do the entire game on any class you want, only when you get to the top 5% of the game like HM sweats leaderboard stuff does Arc show that it dominates because of how the game is set up. Thats the real reason it dominates too is because NPC’s are stupid, they don’t dodge or CC break or counter or heal… makes them easy.
Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
This matters because people build their characters based on what they see on YouTube and play the classes they are advised to. The Arcanist has only exacerbated the "put on a ring and don't worry about it" situation, where people first had to farm the ring, to simply "create an Arcanist and don't worry about it." The Arcanist is now the answer to any question about "I can't kill/pass something."
As for statistics, they're collected only by those same 5% of players—though I would even say it's not 5%, but 1%. We work with what we have. I would love to see stats from ZOS showing how many players simply run dungeons (even normals) and what classes are represented there. I have a feeling that half of the DPS in those dungeons are Arcanists. The problem is that an inexperienced Arcanist doesn’t deal 10% more damage than an inexperienced anyone else—they deal twice as much damage.
Or people could just try out the classes for themselves and see what works for them. The Arc needs some adjustments but I just don’t feel it’s OP based on how average it is in PvP. Let’s be real, overland, delves, public dungeons, dungeons and even some normal trials can be done on anything. The only time you need good dps or anything to worry about is anything vet HM.
Take me for example, I don’t do trials. Arc is real nice, I enjoy the class a lot because of my personal issues it helps. However, I’d rather play my Necro or Sorc because I’ve done more on them, so I have Oakensoul builds on them. I tried out other things and that’s what works for me, that and my Ice build Warden.
I realize people will always go with YouTube builds, nothing wrong with that but people should also just see what else they like.
Let's be real, if you're talking about PvE based on PvP experience, you're just trying to substitute concepts.
The point isn't that the content is impossible to complete — all of it can be done, including all vet HMs, without an Arcanist. The point is that with an Arcanist, it's much easier to do. And when the choice comes down to spending 100-200 hours gaining experience on another class, including practicing on a dummy, or just building an Arcanist and smashing heads right now with minimal effort, most people choose the latter.
Unfortunately, even those who have already spent tons of time learning to play something else are forced to switch to an Arcanist simply because an average Arcanist deals more damage than the best players on other classes. So you're left with no choice but to play one to perform better, making life easier for yourself and everyone else.
The Arcanist in ESO PvE isn’t just OP; it can be used as the very definition of OP.
Easier does not mean OP, more used than any other class does not mean OP. People following the leader blindly and not just doing the content does not mean it’s OP. Does it need changes? Sure. Heck, it might speak more to how dungeons and trials are built than how Arc was built.
I am not talking about PvE based on PvP experience. All I have ever said in any post concerning nerfing a class, any, is that every aspect of the game should be taken into consideration.
Arc will get overnerfed, and I say this because ZOS has a history of it. I would love to be wrong but it’ll happen and you all will just see what I mean when I say over and over that nerfing isn’t the answer. Adjusting the stuff I mentioned before might be a good first step.
Why are you writing all this? Just to argue for the sake of arguing? Pulling a couple of phrases out of context and presenting counterarguments against them is not the level of a constructive discussion. Sorry.
The Arcanist is OP because of how much damage it deals. That’s where this whole conversation started. Due to its simplicity, the worse someone plays, the more benefit they get from using the Arcanist. Now, usage frequency isn’t inherently OP, but it points to something being OP – it’s the main metric to check if something is overpowered or not. To see how many people actually want to play the Arcanist because they like the concept itself, yeah, you’d need to nerf it into the ground and see how many Arcanists remain.
For example, if the beam dealt the same amount of total damage across all enemies as it currently deals to a single target, with the damage split evenly among enemies. If the number of players stays the same, okay, we’ll admit that people just like playing it. If not, then it means it was OP, and people were forced to play it because of that. So far, for a year and a half, we haven’t had the chance to see this.
And yes, it’s impossible to overnerf this thing. The kind of adjustment I gave as an example will never happen. And even if they reduce its beam damage by 20%, it will still dominate at lower skill levels, and people will still pick it for its damage to clear basic vet content.4 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I don't play as much anymore because my main is a sorc, I do NOT play MK, and parse sorcs aren't wanted in trials because arcanist is bloody OP.
This is just my opinion but it’s more how the classes are than Arcanist. Players have put the classes in a situation where all of them have the same buffs now, so none are unique. So for leaderboard chasers it’s easy to just stack a HM vet trial with one class. Even if (or when really) Arcanist is overnerfed another class will take its place and then the threads will start on that class.
I stopped playing because of that and recent stuff. Tired of my class (I play all but Magcro is my main) being nerfed because of one part of the game I don’t even play. It’s exhausting.
Arcanist can parse well using three key binds. It's easy to play, hard to mess up, and high damage with a really low skill floor.
Well dummies don't move, and PvE NPC's are dumb enough to let themselves be beamed. Meanwhile in PvP Arcanist is good but not at the top, pretty much in the middle (in my opinion). So nerfing Arcanist will just lead to them being useless in PvP and some other game modes.
This game doesn't revolve around HM-Trifecta-Leaderboard chasing Trials, it has many modes. Arcanist will probably get nerfed (or overnerfed if history repeats) and then all those at the top will just pick a new class to stack to get high numbers. So, anyone sitting around and thinking "Finally, Arc is nerfed so now groups will allow me to play my...." Wrong, unless the main you play is the one they pick anyway.
Other things should change, how NPC's think being one, make them smarter. You could also vary trials mechanics so that it pushes the idea to bring other classes. Just so many things you can do besides the same thing that has been happening for 10 years and has NOT worked at all and has not gotten us closer to any sort of balance. If anything it's gotten us further away because complaints/feedback has put us in a position where all classes have the same buffs pretty much so none are that unique anymore, making it easier to stack. I've been dealing with this for 10 years and I am just tired.
The Arcanist is overpowered in all types of content except PvP, starting from level 1 characters. Leaderboards only confirm that the Arcanist remains overpowered even at the highest levels. I hope it's not up for debate that the Arcanist deals an absurd amount of AoE damage with the press of a single button? The question here is, what's more engaging when you're new to the game: effortlessly annihilating everything around you or putting in at least some effort? The Arcanist specifically allows you to effortlessly dominate everything unrelated to what you see on the leaderboards.
And like I said Arcanist will very likely get nerfed and people will think they won until the score pushing sweats pick another class to stack and that will be at the top and then people will be calling for that class next. It never ends.
You can do the entire game on any class you want, only when you get to the top 5% of the game like HM sweats leaderboard stuff does Arc show that it dominates because of how the game is set up. Thats the real reason it dominates too is because NPC’s are stupid, they don’t dodge or CC break or counter or heal… makes them easy.
Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
This matters because people build their characters based on what they see on YouTube and play the classes they are advised to. The Arcanist has only exacerbated the "put on a ring and don't worry about it" situation, where people first had to farm the ring, to simply "create an Arcanist and don't worry about it." The Arcanist is now the answer to any question about "I can't kill/pass something."
As for statistics, they're collected only by those same 5% of players—though I would even say it's not 5%, but 1%. We work with what we have. I would love to see stats from ZOS showing how many players simply run dungeons (even normals) and what classes are represented there. I have a feeling that half of the DPS in those dungeons are Arcanists. The problem is that an inexperienced Arcanist doesn’t deal 10% more damage than an inexperienced anyone else—they deal twice as much damage.
Or people could just try out the classes for themselves and see what works for them. The Arc needs some adjustments but I just don’t feel it’s OP based on how average it is in PvP. Let’s be real, overland, delves, public dungeons, dungeons and even some normal trials can be done on anything. The only time you need good dps or anything to worry about is anything vet HM.
Take me for example, I don’t do trials. Arc is real nice, I enjoy the class a lot because of my personal issues it helps. However, I’d rather play my Necro or Sorc because I’ve done more on them, so I have Oakensoul builds on them. I tried out other things and that’s what works for me, that and my Ice build Warden.
I realize people will always go with YouTube builds, nothing wrong with that but people should also just see what else they like.
Let's be real, if you're talking about PvE based on PvP experience, you're just trying to substitute concepts.
The point isn't that the content is impossible to complete — all of it can be done, including all vet HMs, without an Arcanist. The point is that with an Arcanist, it's much easier to do. And when the choice comes down to spending 100-200 hours gaining experience on another class, including practicing on a dummy, or just building an Arcanist and smashing heads right now with minimal effort, most people choose the latter.
Unfortunately, even those who have already spent tons of time learning to play something else are forced to switch to an Arcanist simply because an average Arcanist deals more damage than the best players on other classes. So you're left with no choice but to play one to perform better, making life easier for yourself and everyone else.
The Arcanist in ESO PvE isn’t just OP; it can be used as the very definition of OP.
Easier does not mean OP, more used than any other class does not mean OP. People following the leader blindly and not just doing the content does not mean it’s OP. Does it need changes? Sure. Heck, it might speak more to how dungeons and trials are built than how Arc was built.
I am not talking about PvE based on PvP experience. All I have ever said in any post concerning nerfing a class, any, is that every aspect of the game should be taken into consideration.
Arc will get overnerfed, and I say this because ZOS has a history of it. I would love to be wrong but it’ll happen and you all will just see what I mean when I say over and over that nerfing isn’t the answer. Adjusting the stuff I mentioned before might be a good first step.
Why are you writing all this? Just to argue for the sake of arguing? Pulling a couple of phrases out of context and presenting counterarguments against them is not the level of a constructive discussion. Sorry.
The Arcanist is OP because of how much damage it deals. That’s where this whole conversation started. Due to its simplicity, the worse someone plays, the more benefit they get from using the Arcanist. Now, usage frequency isn’t inherently OP, but it points to something being OP – it’s the main metric to check if something is overpowered or not. To see how many people actually want to play the Arcanist because they like the concept itself, yeah, you’d need to nerf it into the ground and see how many Arcanists remain.
For example, if the beam dealt the same amount of total damage across all enemies as it currently deals to a single target, with the damage split evenly among enemies. If the number of players stays the same, okay, we’ll admit that people just like playing it. If not, then it means it was OP, and people were forced to play it because of that. So far, for a year and a half, we haven’t had the chance to see this.
And yes, it’s impossible to overnerf this thing. The kind of adjustment I gave as an example will never happen. And even if they reduce its beam damage by 20%, it will still dominate at lower skill levels, and people will still pick it for its damage to clear basic vet content.
I'm sharing an opinion and I am honestly just tired of seeing the same old cycle over and over and people thinking it is accomplishing anything. And it won't be a 20% nerf, they just nerfed in Update 44 the Arcanist shield, Runeward, by 56% after the 1 second window and also nerfed the healing of Runeguard by 50%.. .that's what you'll be looking at 50%-60% most likely.
We created the meta, players, not ZOS. If people are so unhappy about not being invited to a score pushing trials or groups pretending to be that then just make your own group. ZOS doesn't invent meta, we do. Something doesn't become meta unless we say it is, or a big YTer says. Do you know what kind of trend it will set if people look at the leaderboards and actually see, maybe not 1st or 2nd but actually see a guild that looks like it open invites to trials and it gets a good score... that will start trends. No matter what people think "ZOS created Arc to get blah blah...." They don't have that kind of power, they can't control what we choose as meta.
I don't know why I am trying, Necro can't get worse so it won't be the next meta, and I only play Arc for fun... it's not even in my top 3 for classes I play. That's Necro, Sorc and Warden. I am just so tired of seeing the same stuff and then people getting angrier when the class they wanted nerfed gets hammered but does not get them invites to those HM trial groups they wanted to be in. So I've said what I had to say, get it nerfed... whatever... it won't help though. Every class has had it's time on the mountain until it was shoved off... I am going to guess DK is next, they were meta before Arc came along. LoL, idk.1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What I don't get is why they nerfed oakensorc because if it's too easy and too good, then why not nerd arc. Same reasons...1 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am not a scorepusher or anything like that, but I think that the big reason why arcanists are OP is because of the encounter design. There are so many adds and even trashpacks are pretty formidable, especially in the last several trials... You really have to rely on aoe damage most of the time and if your group's aoe potential is too low, you will keep wiping even on trash.
I think they should just give other classes more aoe tools, perhaps via class sets or something. Because from what I see any class can do good single target damage, it's all about cleave. I'd imagine it's even more important when going for harder achievements where you have to do the whole trial under 30 minutes.2 -
All classes can tank and heal, everything getting samey easy and boring? The game has a lot of potential, if people can stop complaining about how OP one class is over another and instead concentrate on making each class excel in certain areas so that when the group is balanced they will cut through content like a knife through butter - this is a GOOD thing! Example, an Arcanist is great at AOE - why you wanna make other classes just as good or nerf the Arcanist in this defining ability? YOU ARE MAKING THE GAME BORING when you do this! Sorcerers are great at single target take downs... why you wanna increase Nightblade damage to the same level? STOP IT! LOL! THINK!All rights reserved.1
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Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭miloflipper wrote: »All classes can tank and heal, everything getting samey easy and boring? The game has a lot of potential, if people can stop complaining about how OP one class is over another and instead concentrate on making each class excel in certain areas so that when the group is balanced they will cut through content like a knife through butter - this is a GOOD thing! Example, an Arcanist is great at AOE - why you wanna make other classes just as good or nerf the Arcanist in this defining ability? YOU ARE MAKING THE GAME BORING when you do this! Sorcerers are great at single target take downs... why you wanna increase Nightblade damage to the same level? STOP IT! LOL! THINK!
Because there isn't content diverse like that.
The content is all cleave. ALL CLEAVE. Bosses have adds, trash packs are big. if you can hit everything at once and do a ton of damage to all of it at once, then why not take a class that does just that?6 -
Kessra✭✭✭
Is it? From what I've heared plenty of people quit WoW already as people don't like most of the systems and the mythic+ progression or whatever it is called. I stopped playing WoW mid way through WoD as there was basically noone playing in open world anymore and everyone was just sitting in their garrison.And Wow is doing really great and no wonder. The world soul saga will most likely be a grand success, at least the first part of it looks like it brought back the old times glory. Even during the first light hours there is plenty of hustle going on.
ESO has endgame content for "casual" in the name of trifactor achievements both in trials and dungeons. I doubt most players have those. Some might buy them through carry runs, like they traded emperor titles for millios back in the days already. DLC dungeons are also notably more challenging, especially with hardmodes, compared to the vanilla dungeons we have. Overland contant used to be actually quite difficult before One Tamriel and so it was clear that in order to reach broader audiences they need to dumb it down. However, the current difficulty is more or less laughable. Craglorn then used to be a 4-player zone and even back then except for like 3-4 quests I could solo those on my v14 DK tank. It took time but it was doable.
PvE-focused endgame guilds also can see other trial-groups as competition. Back then, when Lux Dei was basically challenging Hodor and similar groups for the weekly #1 rank on EU we internally also were treating those groups as our golden standard which we wanted to beat. Sometimes we did, sometimes we didn't. At least it added a further level of motivation. In the end, WoW also only has the world-first race and maybe server-firsts to their name. Once that's done, what PvE competition is there left in WoW either?
Don't get me wrong, ESO always has and had the potential to do things better but lots and lots of games and RL events compete with limited time of each player. And there are various reasons I can see after 4 weeks since returning from a 2y break from ESO why people stop playing. I literally did all of the content that came in since I quit ESO in less than a month. Now it's just a matter of completing sticker book or follow personal goals I made up to keep me logging into the game.0 -
dk_dunkirk✭✭✭✭✭manukartofanu wrote: »dk_dunkirk wrote: »
I don't think it's any big mystery, actually. I think there's a very-clearly-understood cost for the things we, the players, would like to see. For cross-platform play, it would be an ENORMOUS spend, and what would be the result? People play together. Would that make them more money? Maybe a little, but that's hard to quantify.
Xeroxing another zone? With another couple public dungeons, a group dungeon, a couple of mythics, another ToT deck, and another 8 sets that no one will use? Then charging $60-$100 for it? Those development costs are well known, and the effect on the bottom line is well known. That's what they're all about now.
The people running the company are making very calculated decisions on cost vs. benefit. The massive thread about lag and disconnects that's still going on? Will fixing it cost more than the revenue being lost by people leaving? Apparently so, according to their estimation, or else they would have prioritized it.
[snip]
[Edit for Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation.]
What about the cost-effectiveness of new battlegrounds? And what about the cost-effectiveness of home tours? And so on and so forth.
Ttomofhyrule wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
The big problem is that the not-as-good raid leads look at what the super sweats are doing, and then they think that's the only way to do things. Because the alternative would be admitting that said raid lead is honestly not as good at the game as they think they are.
Ever since Oakensorc got nerfed, people are now saying that they can't do anything because of the nerf. Which is not entirely true - I've done trifectas in this patch with Oakensorcs in the group. My Coral Aerie was three Oakensorcs and a DK tank. It just requires you to do two things:- Oakensorc does still have a skill set to do and you can have good and bad Oakensorcs, so it's not just "put on Oakensoul and have max possible DPS"
- A raid lead needs to let you into the group.
So yes, you can still get trifectas with pretty well any build, provided you have a group who accepts you. Some class/role combos are going to inherently be less effective, but the only time that could be a detriment is if we're specifically talking about the latest trial trifectas. But it also requires a raid lead who's willing to let people in even if they're not the sweatiest, which is not necessarily something that ZOS controls. And if you have a good raid lead, they'll be able to see that a good Oakensorc is doing better than someone who got an Arcanist and a build online because they heard that that was the 'best,' and doesn't know how to use it at all.
I don't know it for a fact, but I expect you can do any vet content with all oakensorc DPS's, if they can parse over 90K. Can any point to any fight in a vet trial or dungeon that requires more than 95K * 8 (or 2)? Honestly, any vet trial I've seen where we're doing 500K DPS or better, we're just flying through.I like trials. I don't get invites as oakensorc. Easy as.
Even my guild has started score runs and stopped doing the casual vet runs they used to do that I loved. I can't get into score runs. The bias is real.
And we're specifically talking pve here.
Sounds like ZOS can fix this easily. Just undo the nerf to oblivion updates that they did to one bar Oakensoul sorcerer. And then arcanist would have real competition for easy to play and effective PvE DPS. And since I have both an arcanist alt and a sorcerer alt this change would not hurt me at all.
Agreed. I started to run with a serious trial guild a few months ago. Got all my toons all geared up according to their demands. Then they started saying that oakensorcs need not apply. It didn't affect me, because I was -- of course -- running an arcanist as DPS, but it still rankled me, and I stopped caring about the sweaty trial scene.
There's a serious class imbalance here. Serious trial groups are expecting 5-7 arcanists all wearing azureblight for trash. It's obvious that ZOS needs to address this unequivocal preference for DPS, but they cannot rebalance it by nerfing the arcanist. It will kill the meta and crush the endgame scene. No one wants to go back to lower overall DPS.
ZOS is stuck. Their only path forward is to buff the other classes. I would love it if they DID buff oakensorcs back to what they were (they won't, but I'd love it), but everything else needs work too.1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭dk_dunkirk wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »dk_dunkirk wrote: »
I don't think it's any big mystery, actually. I think there's a very-clearly-understood cost for the things we, the players, would like to see. For cross-platform play, it would be an ENORMOUS spend, and what would be the result? People play together. Would that make them more money? Maybe a little, but that's hard to quantify.
Xeroxing another zone? With another couple public dungeons, a group dungeon, a couple of mythics, another ToT deck, and another 8 sets that no one will use? Then charging $60-$100 for it? Those development costs are well known, and the effect on the bottom line is well known. That's what they're all about now.
The people running the company are making very calculated decisions on cost vs. benefit. The massive thread about lag and disconnects that's still going on? Will fixing it cost more than the revenue being lost by people leaving? Apparently so, according to their estimation, or else they would have prioritized it.
[snip]
[Edit for Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation.]
What about the cost-effectiveness of new battlegrounds? And what about the cost-effectiveness of home tours? And so on and so forth.
Ttomofhyrule wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
The big problem is that the not-as-good raid leads look at what the super sweats are doing, and then they think that's the only way to do things. Because the alternative would be admitting that said raid lead is honestly not as good at the game as they think they are.
Ever since Oakensorc got nerfed, people are now saying that they can't do anything because of the nerf. Which is not entirely true - I've done trifectas in this patch with Oakensorcs in the group. My Coral Aerie was three Oakensorcs and a DK tank. It just requires you to do two things:- Oakensorc does still have a skill set to do and you can have good and bad Oakensorcs, so it's not just "put on Oakensoul and have max possible DPS"
- A raid lead needs to let you into the group.
So yes, you can still get trifectas with pretty well any build, provided you have a group who accepts you. Some class/role combos are going to inherently be less effective, but the only time that could be a detriment is if we're specifically talking about the latest trial trifectas. But it also requires a raid lead who's willing to let people in even if they're not the sweatiest, which is not necessarily something that ZOS controls. And if you have a good raid lead, they'll be able to see that a good Oakensorc is doing better than someone who got an Arcanist and a build online because they heard that that was the 'best,' and doesn't know how to use it at all.
I don't know it for a fact, but I expect you can do any vet content with all oakensorc DPS's, if they can parse over 90K. Can any point to any fight in a vet trial or dungeon that requires more than 95K * 8 (or 2)? Honestly, any vet trial I've seen where we're doing 500K DPS or better, we're just flying through.I like trials. I don't get invites as oakensorc. Easy as.
Even my guild has started score runs and stopped doing the casual vet runs they used to do that I loved. I can't get into score runs. The bias is real.
And we're specifically talking pve here.
Sounds like ZOS can fix this easily. Just undo the nerf to oblivion updates that they did to one bar Oakensoul sorcerer. And then arcanist would have real competition for easy to play and effective PvE DPS. And since I have both an arcanist alt and a sorcerer alt this change would not hurt me at all.
Agreed. I started to run with a serious trial guild a few months ago. Got all my toons all geared up according to their demands. Then they started saying that oakensorcs need not apply. It didn't affect me, because I was -- of course -- running an arcanist as DPS, but it still rankled me, and I stopped caring about the sweaty trial scene.
There's a serious class imbalance here. Serious trial groups are expecting 5-7 arcanists all wearing azureblight for trash. It's obvious that ZOS needs to address this unequivocal preference for DPS, but they cannot rebalance it by nerfing the arcanist. It will kill the meta and crush the endgame scene. No one wants to go back to lower overall DPS.
ZOS is stuck. Their only path forward is to buff the other classes. I would love it if they DID buff oakensorcs back to what they were (they won't, but I'd love it), but everything else needs work too.
Most oakensoul sorcs do not do 90k+ My top parse with it is 80k and I definitely do not get that high in content.
2 -
Ingenon✭✭✭✭✭Most oakensoul sorcs do not do 90k+ My top parse with it is 80k and I definitely do not get that high in content.
Then ZOS should undo some of the oakensoul sorc nerfs, so that they can do 90k to 95k. Which is nowhere near as high as the skilled LA weavers. I have seen video parses of 140k+ parses on other classes. Also, I see that arcanist is not the highest parse class, and there are You Tube posts saying that their arcanist parse dropped when ZOS already nerfed arcanist.
I think that there is a real demand from players for easy to play and effective DPS, that does just enough damage so that they can still get invited to a PvE group. I do not think that everyone likes to do the high APM required for skilled LA weaving. Or even can do that high APM for any length of time, either because it hurts their hands, or their internet connection and/or the game servers will not allow it consistently. Or they can't do the APM in a PvE DLC trial or dungeon because of the game mechanics.
But every time ZOS introduces an easy to play and effective DPS class, the forum lights up with posts insisting that it be nerfed to oblivion.
How do nerf a class to oblivion updates help with the population shrinking problem?1 -
dk_dunkirk✭✭✭✭✭dk_dunkirk wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »dk_dunkirk wrote: »
I don't think it's any big mystery, actually. I think there's a very-clearly-understood cost for the things we, the players, would like to see. For cross-platform play, it would be an ENORMOUS spend, and what would be the result? People play together. Would that make them more money? Maybe a little, but that's hard to quantify.
Xeroxing another zone? With another couple public dungeons, a group dungeon, a couple of mythics, another ToT deck, and another 8 sets that no one will use? Then charging $60-$100 for it? Those development costs are well known, and the effect on the bottom line is well known. That's what they're all about now.
The people running the company are making very calculated decisions on cost vs. benefit. The massive thread about lag and disconnects that's still going on? Will fixing it cost more than the revenue being lost by people leaving? Apparently so, according to their estimation, or else they would have prioritized it.
[snip]
[Edit for Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation.]
What about the cost-effectiveness of new battlegrounds? And what about the cost-effectiveness of home tours? And so on and so forth.
Ttomofhyrule wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
The big problem is that the not-as-good raid leads look at what the super sweats are doing, and then they think that's the only way to do things. Because the alternative would be admitting that said raid lead is honestly not as good at the game as they think they are.
Ever since Oakensorc got nerfed, people are now saying that they can't do anything because of the nerf. Which is not entirely true - I've done trifectas in this patch with Oakensorcs in the group. My Coral Aerie was three Oakensorcs and a DK tank. It just requires you to do two things:- Oakensorc does still have a skill set to do and you can have good and bad Oakensorcs, so it's not just "put on Oakensoul and have max possible DPS"
- A raid lead needs to let you into the group.
So yes, you can still get trifectas with pretty well any build, provided you have a group who accepts you. Some class/role combos are going to inherently be less effective, but the only time that could be a detriment is if we're specifically talking about the latest trial trifectas. But it also requires a raid lead who's willing to let people in even if they're not the sweatiest, which is not necessarily something that ZOS controls. And if you have a good raid lead, they'll be able to see that a good Oakensorc is doing better than someone who got an Arcanist and a build online because they heard that that was the 'best,' and doesn't know how to use it at all.
I don't know it for a fact, but I expect you can do any vet content with all oakensorc DPS's, if they can parse over 90K. Can any point to any fight in a vet trial or dungeon that requires more than 95K * 8 (or 2)? Honestly, any vet trial I've seen where we're doing 500K DPS or better, we're just flying through.I like trials. I don't get invites as oakensorc. Easy as.
Even my guild has started score runs and stopped doing the casual vet runs they used to do that I loved. I can't get into score runs. The bias is real.
And we're specifically talking pve here.
Sounds like ZOS can fix this easily. Just undo the nerf to oblivion updates that they did to one bar Oakensoul sorcerer. And then arcanist would have real competition for easy to play and effective PvE DPS. And since I have both an arcanist alt and a sorcerer alt this change would not hurt me at all.
Agreed. I started to run with a serious trial guild a few months ago. Got all my toons all geared up according to their demands. Then they started saying that oakensorcs need not apply. It didn't affect me, because I was -- of course -- running an arcanist as DPS, but it still rankled me, and I stopped caring about the sweaty trial scene.
There's a serious class imbalance here. Serious trial groups are expecting 5-7 arcanists all wearing azureblight for trash. It's obvious that ZOS needs to address this unequivocal preference for DPS, but they cannot rebalance it by nerfing the arcanist. It will kill the meta and crush the endgame scene. No one wants to go back to lower overall DPS.
ZOS is stuck. Their only path forward is to buff the other classes. I would love it if they DID buff oakensorcs back to what they were (they won't, but I'd love it), but everything else needs work too.
Most oakensoul sorcs do not do 90k+ My top parse with it is 80k and I definitely do not get that high in content.dk_dunkirk wrote: »manukartofanu wrote: »dk_dunkirk wrote: »
I don't think it's any big mystery, actually. I think there's a very-clearly-understood cost for the things we, the players, would like to see. For cross-platform play, it would be an ENORMOUS spend, and what would be the result? People play together. Would that make them more money? Maybe a little, but that's hard to quantify.
Xeroxing another zone? With another couple public dungeons, a group dungeon, a couple of mythics, another ToT deck, and another 8 sets that no one will use? Then charging $60-$100 for it? Those development costs are well known, and the effect on the bottom line is well known. That's what they're all about now.
The people running the company are making very calculated decisions on cost vs. benefit. The massive thread about lag and disconnects that's still going on? Will fixing it cost more than the revenue being lost by people leaving? Apparently so, according to their estimation, or else they would have prioritized it.
[snip]
[Edit for Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation.]
What about the cost-effectiveness of new battlegrounds? And what about the cost-effectiveness of home tours? And so on and so forth.
Ttomofhyrule wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »Question is: why does it matter that HM sweats use Arc to get high scores? Not like you can’t do the content on another class, might just take more effort and have a more complicated rotation but you can get it done. Arc being used by that population, which is a small part of the game, doesn’t hurt anyone.
The big problem is that the not-as-good raid leads look at what the super sweats are doing, and then they think that's the only way to do things. Because the alternative would be admitting that said raid lead is honestly not as good at the game as they think they are.
Ever since Oakensorc got nerfed, people are now saying that they can't do anything because of the nerf. Which is not entirely true - I've done trifectas in this patch with Oakensorcs in the group. My Coral Aerie was three Oakensorcs and a DK tank. It just requires you to do two things:- Oakensorc does still have a skill set to do and you can have good and bad Oakensorcs, so it's not just "put on Oakensoul and have max possible DPS"
- A raid lead needs to let you into the group.
So yes, you can still get trifectas with pretty well any build, provided you have a group who accepts you. Some class/role combos are going to inherently be less effective, but the only time that could be a detriment is if we're specifically talking about the latest trial trifectas. But it also requires a raid lead who's willing to let people in even if they're not the sweatiest, which is not necessarily something that ZOS controls. And if you have a good raid lead, they'll be able to see that a good Oakensorc is doing better than someone who got an Arcanist and a build online because they heard that that was the 'best,' and doesn't know how to use it at all.
I don't know it for a fact, but I expect you can do any vet content with all oakensorc DPS's, if they can parse over 90K. Can any point to any fight in a vet trial or dungeon that requires more than 95K * 8 (or 2)? Honestly, any vet trial I've seen where we're doing 500K DPS or better, we're just flying through.I like trials. I don't get invites as oakensorc. Easy as.
Even my guild has started score runs and stopped doing the casual vet runs they used to do that I loved. I can't get into score runs. The bias is real.
And we're specifically talking pve here.
Sounds like ZOS can fix this easily. Just undo the nerf to oblivion updates that they did to one bar Oakensoul sorcerer. And then arcanist would have real competition for easy to play and effective PvE DPS. And since I have both an arcanist alt and a sorcerer alt this change would not hurt me at all.
Agreed. I started to run with a serious trial guild a few months ago. Got all my toons all geared up according to their demands. Then they started saying that oakensorcs need not apply. It didn't affect me, because I was -- of course -- running an arcanist as DPS, but it still rankled me, and I stopped caring about the sweaty trial scene.
There's a serious class imbalance here. Serious trial groups are expecting 5-7 arcanists all wearing azureblight for trash. It's obvious that ZOS needs to address this unequivocal preference for DPS, but they cannot rebalance it by nerfing the arcanist. It will kill the meta and crush the endgame scene. No one wants to go back to lower overall DPS.
ZOS is stuck. Their only path forward is to buff the other classes. I would love it if they DID buff oakensorcs back to what they were (they won't, but I'd love it), but everything else needs work too.
Most oakensoul sorcs do not do 90k+ My top parse with it is 80k and I definitely do not get that high in content.
I can parse 95K. I've watched people who can get 98K. Some claim they can still eke out 100. Sure, most people can't, but the kind of people who want to run sweaty trials probably can.
No one gets their parse in content. It's usually around half. On single targets, the difference between oakensorcs and arcanists isn't going to be much in the trial. But oakensorcs have very little AOE, and are absolutely bound to just a couple of sets to make the build work. OTOH, the arcanists in the group are all going to be slaying with cleave and proc set effects. So, yeah, I get it. It sucks, but I get it. If they would un-nerf the lightning staff tick AOE burst, it would go a long way to restoring the build's flexibility in content.Edited by dk_dunkirk on December 17, 2024 2:40PM0 -
ZOS_KevinCommunity ManagerJust wanted to follow up in this thread with a link to Matt's community letter: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/670691/studio-director-s-letter-2025-beyond#latestCommunity Manager for ZeniMax Online Studio and Elder Scrolls OnlineDev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter4 -
manukartofanu✭✭✭✭Most oakensoul sorcs do not do 90k+ My top parse with it is 80k and I definitely do not get that high in content.
Then ZOS should undo some of the oakensoul sorc nerfs, so that they can do 90k to 95k. Which is nowhere near as high as the skilled LA weavers. I have seen video parses of 140k+ parses on other classes. Also, I see that arcanist is not the highest parse class, and there are You Tube posts saying that their arcanist parse dropped when ZOS already nerfed arcanist.
I think that there is a real demand from players for easy to play and effective DPS, that does just enough damage so that they can still get invited to a PvE group. I do not think that everyone likes to do the high APM required for skilled LA weaving. Or even can do that high APM for any length of time, either because it hurts their hands, or their internet connection and/or the game servers will not allow it consistently. Or they can't do the APM in a PvE DLC trial or dungeon because of the game mechanics.
But every time ZOS introduces an easy to play and effective DPS class, the forum lights up with posts insisting that it be nerfed to oblivion.
How do nerf a class to oblivion updates help with the population shrinking problem?
Oh, no problem at all, you can just ignore us; we know nothing, and ZOS knows everything better. They even told us that the year was incredibly successful, so what questions could there possibly be? It’s all clear: we’re moving towards even greater success. I just hope they buff the Arcanist even more so I can effortlessly clear all the trifectas in this game.
And overall, the topic has exhausted itself. Since we've been told that everything is incredible, I guess players aren’t leaving, and there’s no need to fix something that doesn’t actually exist.5 -
TwiceBornStar✭✭✭✭I'm one of those players who said that it's okay to cut down on the content for a while if that means bug fixes and quality of life improvements, so if you want to blame somebody..
I'm *that* dude!
1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TwiceBornStar wrote: »I'm one of those players who said that it's okay to cut down on the content for a while if that means bug fixes and quality of life improvements, so if you want to blame somebody..
I'm *that* dude!
That's fine if the bugs are fixed and the quality of life improves.
However....10 -
Renato90085✭✭✭miloflipper wrote: »All classes can tank and heal, everything getting samey easy and boring? The game has a lot of potential, if people can stop complaining about how OP one class is over another and instead concentrate on making each class excel in certain areas so that when the group is balanced they will cut through content like a knife through butter - this is a GOOD thing! Example, an Arcanist is great at AOE - why you wanna make other classes just as good or nerf the Arcanist in this defining ability? YOU ARE MAKING THE GAME BORING when you do this! Sorcerers are great at single target take downs... why you wanna increase Nightblade damage to the same level? STOP IT! LOL! THINK!
nb is st dmg class like sorc too..but sorc good in boss health 100%~50% nb not bad in last 35%
Edited by Renato90085 on December 18, 2024 10:05AM0 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭TwiceBornStar wrote: »I'm one of those players who said that it's okay to cut down on the content for a while if that means bug fixes and quality of life improvements, so if you want to blame somebody..
I'm *that* dude!
Isn't that what we were promised this year? Less content but more QoL.
Yeah, I mean, we did get less content...8 -
dk_dunkirk✭✭✭✭✭TwiceBornStar wrote: »I'm one of those players who said that it's okay to cut down on the content for a while if that means bug fixes and quality of life improvements, so if you want to blame somebody..
I'm *that* dude!
Me too. We don't need another cut-and-paste approach to a zone with a story that goes nowhere, another dungeon and trial, a new ToT deck, a handful of useless mythics, another half dozen sets that 1) no one will ever use and 2) will force balance issues between PVE and PVP, and -- of course -- a bunch of achievements buried behind various other parts of the game.
OTOH, the 95-page thread about the ongoing performance problems and the seemingly endless complaints about PVP make it feel like we're not getting the other work either.5 -
moderatelyfatman✭✭✭✭✭
✭dk_dunkirk wrote: »TwiceBornStar wrote: »I'm one of those players who said that it's okay to cut down on the content for a while if that means bug fixes and quality of life improvements, so if you want to blame somebody..
I'm *that* dude!
Me too. We don't need another cut-and-paste approach to a zone with a story that goes nowhere, another dungeon and trial, a new ToT deck, a handful of useless mythics, another half dozen sets that 1) no one will ever use and 2) will force balance issues between PVE and PVP, and -- of course -- a bunch of achievements buried behind various other parts of the game.
OTOH, the 95-page thread about the ongoing performance problems and the seemingly endless complaints about PVP make it feel like we're not getting the other work either.
I agree with you about not needing another superfluous zone or ToT decks and mythics. However, I do think that we need more trials and would be happy to buy them for 2500 crowns in the crown store.1