PTS Update 44 - Feedback Thread for Two-Sided Battlegrounds

ForumSavant

They have had a real MMR system for their card game when BGs came out before the card game. The second the card game came out there was an accurate MMR system, BGs didn't get that on release, and still hasn't gotten it 7 entire years later, and it's all we want.

SkaraMinoc

Please add an armory station to Casual 8v8 BGs. Let players decide what they want to play at any time during the match.

Thumbless_Bot

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Please add an armory station to Casual 8v8 BGs. Let players decide what they want to play at any time during the match.

I vote for a champion crafting station right in the middle of the battlefield.

And fishing nodes... I mean, why not?! It could happen...all 8 or 16 people laying down thier arms for some fried slaughterfish and some rounds of Kumbaya...

Actually I think this is a really great idea. Should maybe allow for bank access too since you may not have access to armory, maybe not, idk, never used the armory... there might be others and we all might have stuff stored in the bank and not in an armory build...

But about those fishing nodes... give it some thought...

Aldoss

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Please add an armory station to Casual 8v8 BGs. Let players decide what they want to play at any time during the match.

This is amazing

chessalavakia_ESO

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Please add an armory station to Casual 8v8 BGs. Let players decide what they want to play at any time during the match.

Should the Casual mode have people optimizing that heavily?

Personally, one of the major annoyances I hit during Battleground Weekends is the players running builds optimized for the specific Battleground aren't fun to play against.

Thumbless_Bot

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Please add an armory station to Casual 8v8 BGs. Let players decide what they want to play at any time during the match.

Should the Casual mode have people optimizing that heavily?

Personally, one of the major annoyances I hit during Battleground Weekends is the players running builds optimized for the specific Battleground aren't fun to play against.

They're going to be there regardless. Also, this isn't really a valid reason to prevent functionality that everyone can use during the match... imho.

i11ionward

Decimus wrote: »

Besides the already mentioned issues on no separate solo/group queue, medal score, no MMR degradation based on performance etc, I think one thing that'd be a solid quality of life improvement while simultaneously reducing queue times is being able to queue for multiple battleground types at the same time.

What do I mean by that? Well, what if I don't care too much if I queue into 4v4 or 8v8?

There should be the option to queue for both at the same time, and the first queue to pop would get you in the corresponding battleground. This can already be done on Live between solo/group battlegrounds with the BetterScoreboard addon: you get boxes for both solo/group that you can tick before queueing.

I agree, this is definitely a useful feature.

robpr

So new bgs are Deathmatch only, I immediately lost my interest. All these beautiful crafted maps where fights could be split in favor of small skirmishes in few locations, all matches will devolve into clustertruck in the middle of the map then when one team eventually will get wiped out, the winning team will camp at their spawn. Great fun for both sides.

Instead of "turning all into dm because the matches devolve into dm" you would try to investigate why people ignore objectives in favor of mindless k:d ratio that does nothing to win the match.

inb4 flag match is not pvp, yes they do, if you actually fight for those flags and reduce their mindless number to max 3 on the map.

Aldoss

Nope. Sorry ZOS. These patch notes ain't it.

BGs will be just as dead as they are now once the honeymoon is over.

You need an actual MMR. Fracturing the queue for solo's won't solve any issues. It will actually just create the same awkward situation that we have now where a social MMO actively punishes you for trying to play that social MMO with your friends.

You really need to resolve your selective hearing and need to start communicating with your playerbase.

Can you imagine 6 months ago being told, "Hey BG players, we're working on something big coming up in a much future update. We're hearing a lot of support for 2-sided BGs. Please fill out this survey and let us know your thoughts on the state of BGs."

You would have had hundreds of people reply with all the info being shared here, primarily the lack of any real MMR, to understand that your investment strategy was flawed without BOTH 2-sided BGs AND a working MMR.

Instead, we get this.

What's going to happen now, based on historical actions made by ZOS? Nothing.

BGs will be unveiled in a few weeks in a broken state. The choice to fracture the queue will stunt the group queue so that no one who wants to participate in BGs casually will queue with their friends. Players interested in learning how to PvP are disincentivized to group with someone who is willing to walk them through it because the queue times are longer and the chance of getting 4-man sweaties that will demolish you are significantly increased.

Bad call. We now have a 0.1% chance that anything in these notes will change before the update gets pushed to live. Same ol' ZOS as 10 years ago. Old habits die hard.

dinokstrunz

Awful awful changes. We don't want 4 queues in our Battlegrounds. 8v8 is supposed to be for fun & quick play option of the game mode so why have MMR be a thing there? This needs to go back to works because you're killing this feature before it goes live with these changes.

jaws343

robpr wrote: »

So new bgs are Deathmatch only, I immediately lost my interest. All these beautiful crafted maps where fights could be split in favor of small skirmishes in few locations, all matches will devolve into clustertruck in the middle of the map then when one team eventually will get wiped out, the winning team will camp at their spawn. Great fun for both sides.

Instead of "turning all into dm because the matches devolve into dm" you would try to investigate why people ignore objectives in favor of mindless k:d ratio that does nothing to win the match.

inb4 flag match is not pvp, yes they do, if you actually fight for those flags and reduce their mindless number to max 3 on the map.

That isn't what the patch notes said at all...

They removed the Rounds/lives from the non-deathmatch modes, because the Rounds/Lives function turned all of those objective matches into pseudo deathmatches because killing all of your opponent's lives was a more surefire way to win the objective mode than actually playing the objective.

So, objective mode still exists, just without the Rounds/Lives mechanics.

LinusMain

As a solo BG player, having a solo queue will improve my experience.

robpr

jaws343 wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

So new bgs are Deathmatch only, I immediately lost my interest. All these beautiful crafted maps where fights could be split in favor of small skirmishes in few locations, all matches will devolve into clustertruck in the middle of the map then when one team eventually will get wiped out, the winning team will camp at their spawn. Great fun for both sides.

Instead of "turning all into dm because the matches devolve into dm" you would try to investigate why people ignore objectives in favor of mindless k:d ratio that does nothing to win the match.

inb4 flag match is not pvp, yes they do, if you actually fight for those flags and reduce their mindless number to max 3 on the map.

That isn't what the patch notes said at all...

They removed the Rounds/lives from the non-deathmatch modes, because the Rounds/Lives function turned all of those objective matches into pseudo deathmatches because killing all of your opponent's lives was a more surefire way to win the objective mode than actually playing the objective.

So, objective mode still exists, just without the Rounds/Lives mechanics.

You are right, I got mad at nothing. I apologize.

jaws343

Aldoss wrote: »

Nope. Sorry ZOS. These patch notes ain't it.

BGs will be just as dead as they are now once the honeymoon is over.

You need an actual MMR. Fracturing the queue for solo's won't solve any issues. It will actually just create the same awkward situation that we have now where a social MMO actively punishes you for trying to play that social MMO with your friends.

You really need to resolve your selective hearing and need to start communicating with your playerbase.

Can you imagine 6 months ago being told, "Hey BG players, we're working on something big coming up in a much future update. We're hearing a lot of support for 2-sided BGs. Please fill out this survey and let us know your thoughts on the state of BGs."

You would have had hundreds of people reply with all the info being shared here, primarily the lack of any real MMR, to understand that your investment strategy was flawed without BOTH 2-sided BGs AND a working MMR.

Instead, we get this.

What's going to happen now, based on historical actions made by ZOS? Nothing.

BGs will be unveiled in a few weeks in a broken state. The choice to fracture the queue will stunt the group queue so that no one who wants to participate in BGs casually will queue with their friends. Players interested in learning how to PvP are disincentivized to group with someone who is willing to walk them through it because the queue times are longer and the chance of getting 4-man sweaties that will demolish you are significantly increased.

Bad call. We now have a 0.1% chance that anything in these notes will change before the update gets pushed to live. Same ol' ZOS as 10 years ago. Old habits die hard.

But most of the feedback was pushing for the inclusion of solo queues. And they clarified how the MMR actually functions.

Major_Mangle

Thanks for ruining your new content before it even goes live. Having 4 different queues leaves us at the same point we´re on live:
You can´t get a battleground queue in reasonable time if you play with a friend. Also adding MMR to all the queues will also just give us the same experience as on live where it takes ages to find other players of similar MMR. Why are we actively punishing people who wanna play as a group, because it´s essentially what these changes are doing.

I can 100% understand people being worried about fighting premades in the 8v8 setting, I really do. But with 4 different queues you´re just splitting the player base up to the point where you won´t find games unless you play solo (at least after the first honeymoon once the update goes live). Absolutely awful changes that no one but a few vocal "solo" players and streamers asked for.

Thumbless_Bot

Holey tattered bath towels batman they gave us our solo queues back. Thank you @ZOS_Kevin

Thumbless_Bot

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Thanks for ruining your new content before it even goes live. Having 4 different queues leaves us at the same point we´re on live:
You can´t get a battleground queue in reasonable time if you play with a friend. Also adding MMR to all the queues will also just give us the same experience as on live where it takes ages to find other players of similar MMR. Why are we actively punishing people who wanna play as a group, because it´s essentially what these changes are doing.

I can 100% understand people being worried about fighting premades in the 8v8 setting, I really do. But with 4 different queues you´re just splitting the player base up to the point where you won´t find games unless you play solo (at least after the first honeymoon once the update goes live). Absolutely awful changes that no one but a few vocal "solo" players and streamers asked for.

There were more than a few of us asking and hoping for this. Those of us posting here spoke for a lot of people who did not post. I am in a very active battleground guild on pcna and this sentiment was all over our guild chat.

I, personally would rather wait for competitive and fun fights than have a litany of lopsided encounters that make me less likely to keep playing bgs.

Jierdanit

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Thanks for ruining your new content before it even goes live. Having 4 different queues leaves us at the same point we´re on live:
You can´t get a battleground queue in reasonable time if you play with a friend. Also adding MMR to all the queues will also just give us the same experience as on live where it takes ages to find other players of similar MMR. Why are we actively punishing people who wanna play as a group, because it´s essentially what these changes are doing.

I can 100% understand people being worried about fighting premades in the 8v8 setting, I really do. But with 4 different queues you´re just splitting the player base up to the point where you won´t find games unless you play solo (at least after the first honeymoon once the update goes live). Absolutely awful changes that no one but a few vocal "solo" players and streamers asked for.

Its literally exactly the other way around.

Most people have been asking for separate groups for solo with only fery vew vocal people pushing against that.
Not forcing solo and group players into the same queues is going to make the average BG a lot more enjoyable for most players.

IMO if the MMR is actually working properly now (which you cant really test on pts) those changes sound very good.

SundarahFr3akinrican

I think this statement "This change was based on PTS feedback noting that game modes outside of Deathmatch will eventually degrade to Deathmatch." misses the point a lot of people have been making about incentives. Winning has to mean something. It has to be worthwhile. It has to feel like you are missing out if you don't win. Then people would play the objectives.

The reason things "degrade" into deathmatch, is because winning doesnt reward/mean anything. There has to be a reward when you win worth doing the objective for. Currently the rewards are lackluster, especially on the PTS where none of the winnings cross over to your main account. So things on the PTS will most likely degrade more into deathmatch for that reason.

Estin

Separate queues for solo and group are preferable if max group size can't be limited to 2 in U44. I do hope the dev note means that in the future separate queues for solo and group will be removed in favor for 1 queue with a max group size of 2, at least just for 8v8 so queue times are faster, and if that's correct, I hope it's with U45 instead of U48. I still think competitive should have separate queues for solo and group because you can't really be competitive as a solo queuer against a group of 4.

Also, I haven't seen this addressed anywhere, but I was watching a livestream for the new BGs and saw someone be kicked for inactivity as a spectator which gave them a deserter's penalty. Something should be put in place to prevent this.

jaws343

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

I think this statement "This change was based on PTS feedback noting that game modes outside of Deathmatch will eventually degrade to Deathmatch." misses the point a lot of people have been making about incentives. Winning has to mean something. It has to be worthwhile. It has to feel like you are missing out if you don't win. Then people would play the objectives.

The reason things "degrade" into deathmatch, is because winning doesnt reward/mean anything. There has to be a reward when you win worth doing the objective for. Currently the rewards are lackluster, especially on the PTS where none of the winnings cross over to your main account. So things on the PTS will most likely degrade more into deathmatch for that reason.

I mentioned it in another comment, but that statement was very specifically regarding the Rounds/Lives mechanic on objective modes.

It was noticed that, in objective modes, with the Round/Lives mechanic, targetting and killing off players rather than playing the objective, was a far more useful strategy to win. So the Round/Lives mechanic just turned those modes in the deathmatch, because having zero opponent lives left was optimal to capturing relics.

Removing Rounds/Lives from objective modes puts the win/loss for the mode into a objective focused one rather than eliminating the limited lives of your opponent.

Aldoss

jaws343 wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Nope. Sorry ZOS. These patch notes ain't it.

BGs will be just as dead as they are now once the honeymoon is over.

You need an actual MMR. Fracturing the queue for solo's won't solve any issues. It will actually just create the same awkward situation that we have now where a social MMO actively punishes you for trying to play that social MMO with your friends.

You really need to resolve your selective hearing and need to start communicating with your playerbase.

Can you imagine 6 months ago being told, "Hey BG players, we're working on something big coming up in a much future update. We're hearing a lot of support for 2-sided BGs. Please fill out this survey and let us know your thoughts on the state of BGs."

You would have had hundreds of people reply with all the info being shared here, primarily the lack of any real MMR, to understand that your investment strategy was flawed without BOTH 2-sided BGs AND a working MMR.

Instead, we get this.

What's going to happen now, based on historical actions made by ZOS? Nothing.

BGs will be unveiled in a few weeks in a broken state. The choice to fracture the queue will stunt the group queue so that no one who wants to participate in BGs casually will queue with their friends. Players interested in learning how to PvP are disincentivized to group with someone who is willing to walk them through it because the queue times are longer and the chance of getting 4-man sweaties that will demolish you are significantly increased.

Bad call. We now have a 0.1% chance that anything in these notes will change before the update gets pushed to live. Same ol' ZOS as 10 years ago. Old habits die hard.

But most of the feedback was pushing for the inclusion of solo queues. And they clarified how the MMR actually functions.

There's two forms of feedback that achieve the same thing, but with different consequences.

Fracturing the queue solves the problem only for solo players. It solves the problem by accepting the broken system that we already have and achieves nothing more than that. I think that's severely devaluing what could have happened here.

The other feedback being shared was that casual players didn't want to be matched against 4-man premades. There's a massive difference in the casual experience when a solo or duo gets matched against a 4-man, as opposed to another duo.

Duo's don't alter the experience as much as a 4-man ever could.

It sounds like ZOS doesn't possess the functionality to restrict access only for 4-mans. I sincerely hope that they start working on this immediately and get a solution pushed for U45 because this is the best way to create a healthy BG community.

I'll say it again: It's astonishing that a social MMO actively disincentivizes group play. Imagine if the PvE group finder worked this way? Solo players are allowed to enter the queue and get normal dungeons only, but duos, trios, and quads are only allowed to get vet dungeons.

People like to play with their friends. @Thumbless_Bot I'm in your BG guild on pcna. People in that guild also like to group with each other and some probably only stay in the solo queue because it's the only way to get a BG to pop consistently, reliably, and without the high probability of getting matched against a 4-man premade when you're not looking to run an optimized group build.

My wife and I have had many friends throughout the years that want to group up and we always have to deny them because we get barely 90min to play a night and the group queue already takes too long to get into a game. It's even worse as a 3 or 4-man.

I'm happy for those who got their wish. I want more. I want for ZOS to do something that actually solves this issue and doesn't just become a bandaid fix that causes more problems.

They need to work on an actual MMR and they need to figure out how to limit participation in the 8v8 based on group size, not just the binary of group or no group. It makes no sense to disincentivize grouping on a social MMO.

Jierdanit

Aldoss wrote: »

I'll say it again: It's astonishing that a social MMO actively disincentivizes group play. Imagine if the PvE group finder worked this way? Solo players are allowed to enter the queue and get normal dungeons only, but duos, trios, and quads are only allowed to get vet dungeons.

People like to play with their friends. @Thumbless_Bot I'm in your BG guild on pcna. People in that guild also like to group with each other and some probably only stay in the solo queue because it's the only way to get a BG to pop consistently, reliably, and without the high probability of getting matched against a 4-man premade when you're not looking to run an optimized group build.

My wife and I have had many friends throughout the years that want to group up and we always have to deny them because we get barely 90min to play a night and the group queue already takes too long to get into a game. It's even worse as a 3 or 4-man.

I'm happy for those who got their wish. I want more. I want for ZOS to do something that actually solves this issue and doesn't just become a bandaid fix that causes more problems.

They need to work on an actual MMR and they need to figure out how to limit participation in the 8v8 based on group size, not just the binary of group or no group. It makes no sense to disincentivize grouping on a social MMO.

The game does in no way disincentivize grouping, the players do.

ZOS isnt forcing people not to queue for group BGs.
It just seems like not enough people are interested in doing group BGs so that the queues take ages.
Organized group PvP is simply not interesting to a lot of players.

You are not being punished for wanting to group just because other players now have the option of queueing solo without being forced to go up against your premade groups.

Aldoss

Jierdanit wrote: »

The game does in no way disincentivize grouping, the players do.

The game system controls the ability and capability of its playerbase. This is a game management problem and not a player problem.

Casual groups can and do exist, up until the point where exactly 1 4-man premade enters the queue with no competition. The moment that happens, the queue dies. The group queue is 100% sustained by casual duo'ers.

Jierdanit wrote: »

Organized group PvP is simply not interesting to a lot of players.

Correct, but grouping in and of itself does not equate to organized PvP, just as a 12-man group in Cyro does not equate to a ballgroup.

This is a social game. The draw of this game over any other elder scrolls game is party due to the fact that you can play it with your friends. My wife and I like to BG. We queue up nearly every night. My wife has no interest in being a sweaty or playing in a coordinated group. We just like to enjoy the game in a casual setting.

We are not alone.

Jierdanit wrote: »

You are not being punished for wanting to group just because other players now have the option of queueing solo without being forced to go up against your premade groups.

I'll remember this comment when my wife and I queue up because we want to BG for the 90 minutes that we have to play a game that we want to play, but end up giving up after 20min with no queue pop and go play Valheim instead.

ZOS should have a solution that insulates casual players from the mystical 4-man that wants to farm baby seals in the 8v8 "casual" mode. Casual players come in two forms: solo and groups. Limiting the queue in the 8v8 to restrict 4-man groups should have been something they thought of. They didn't. So here we are.

Thumbless_Bot

Aldoss wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Nope. Sorry ZOS. These patch notes ain't it.

BGs will be just as dead as they are now once the honeymoon is over.

You need an actual MMR. Fracturing the queue for solo's won't solve any issues. It will actually just create the same awkward situation that we have now where a social MMO actively punishes you for trying to play that social MMO with your friends.

You really need to resolve your selective hearing and need to start communicating with your playerbase.

Can you imagine 6 months ago being told, "Hey BG players, we're working on something big coming up in a much future update. We're hearing a lot of support for 2-sided BGs. Please fill out this survey and let us know your thoughts on the state of BGs."

You would have had hundreds of people reply with all the info being shared here, primarily the lack of any real MMR, to understand that your investment strategy was flawed without BOTH 2-sided BGs AND a working MMR.

Instead, we get this.

What's going to happen now, based on historical actions made by ZOS? Nothing.

BGs will be unveiled in a few weeks in a broken state. The choice to fracture the queue will stunt the group queue so that no one who wants to participate in BGs casually will queue with their friends. Players interested in learning how to PvP are disincentivized to group with someone who is willing to walk them through it because the queue times are longer and the chance of getting 4-man sweaties that will demolish you are significantly increased.

Bad call. We now have a 0.1% chance that anything in these notes will change before the update gets pushed to live. Same ol' ZOS as 10 years ago. Old habits die hard.

But most of the feedback was pushing for the inclusion of solo queues. And they clarified how the MMR actually functions.

There's two forms of feedback that achieve the same thing, but with different consequences.

Fracturing the queue solves the problem only for solo players. It solves the problem by accepting the broken system that we already have and achieves nothing more than that. I think that's severely devaluing what could have happened here.

The other feedback being shared was that casual players didn't want to be matched against 4-man premades. There's a massive difference in the casual experience when a solo or duo gets matched against a 4-man, as opposed to another duo.

Duo's don't alter the experience as much as a 4-man ever could.

It sounds like ZOS doesn't possess the functionality to restrict access only for 4-mans. I sincerely hope that they start working on this immediately and get a solution pushed for U45 because this is the best way to create a healthy BG community.

I'll say it again: It's astonishing that a social MMO actively disincentivizes group play. Imagine if the PvE group finder worked this way? Solo players are allowed to enter the queue and get normal dungeons only, but duos, trios, and quads are only allowed to get vet dungeons.

People like to play with their friends. @Thumbless_Bot I'm in your BG guild on pcna. People in that guild also like to group with each other and some probably only stay in the solo queue because it's the only way to get a BG to pop consistently, reliably, and without the high probability of getting matched against a 4-man premade when you're not looking to run an optimized group build.

My wife and I have had many friends throughout the years that want to group up and we always have to deny them because we get barely 90min to play a night and the group queue already takes too long to get into a game. It's even worse as a 3 or 4-man.

I'm happy for those who got their wish. I want more. I want for ZOS to do something that actually solves this issue and doesn't just become a bandaid fix that causes more problems.

They need to work on an actual MMR and they need to figure out how to limit participation in the 8v8 based on group size, not just the binary of group or no group. It makes no sense to disincentivize grouping on a social MMO.

I feel you... i really do. Nothing, literally nothing would make me happier as it relates to ESO, than if the bg population would increase 100-fold. I think the consensus is that smashing solos and groups together would do the opposite. I wish it wouldn't, but I can't help but feel it would.

As I previously said, people can only handle getting their faces melted off so many times before they direct their attention elsewhere.

Erickson9610

Players who want to play together can just queue for the same Solo queue. Chances are they'll get in the same match, even if they're sometimes on opposing teams. I've pretty consistently fought with and against several friends of mine that way.

gariondavey

Thank you for clarifying mmr is derived from win loss ratio essentially

Remaining issues:

-leaderboard needs to be based off mmr
-there are too many queues currently with 4. There should be 2 (solo/duo 8v8s no mmr, 4v4 group ranked) or max 3 (solo/duo 8v8s no mmr, 4v4 solo ranked, 4v4 group ranked)
-medals need a rework to be fair to necros and shielders, as well as healers

licenturion

I am very happy with the solo queue changes.

- Players who prefer to play in pre-made groups have the option
- Players who queue solo have also the option to play against other solo's who have the same potential synergy and communication handicaps.

This is fair matchmaking that wont chase me and an entire segment of fellow casual battlegrounders away.

Thank you for creating both options. Yeah some group pre-mades will be angry they don't get to stomp solo lobbies, but it will create a better environment for every type of player. If there wasn't a solo queue anymore I would have dropped the mode completely from my rotation anyway and I bet I am not the only one thinking this way. So less players would create even more queue problems.

Aldoss wrote: »

I'm happy for those who got their wish. I want more. I want for ZOS to do something that actually solves this issue and doesn't just become a bandaid fix that causes more problems.

This issue can't be 'solved'. What they have now is the most balanced option for both parties.

If there is no solo queue, people like me just would stop doing battlegrounds and seeing the feedback from the past week, I am certainly not the only one. So less players wouldn't do queue times any favours. Especially because many of us would rather not play at all than being forced to play with premades. We solo battlegrounders have no impact on group queue times because we would not queue.

xylena_lazarow

Praise Sithis, they actually did it.

Thanks for listening, looking forward to solo queue.

DrSlaughtr

I just want a battle royale teamless bg with no overhead identification. 😁