So my trade guild is closing...

kargen27

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Who needs to check 100+ traders to set their price? I play on PS NA, and all I check are the 3 alliance hubs.

For bigger ticket items, If I'm listing at my alliance city trader I list it competitively with everybody else around me. If I'm listing at a DLC trader I'll list it a bit cheaper, and make sure none of the other stalls in the same zone are listing it cheaper than me.

For general goods / smaller ticket items, I just set my own price based solely on the stalls near me.

And I do just fine. I'm not hurting for sales by any stretch of the meaning. The guilds I'm in aren't struggling either.

How much is a given motif worth? Something similar? Just checking the 15 or so traders you note is not sufficient, especially in the likely case none of them have that item. Sure it may work for common mats, but those are not the key money makers.

I literally just checked the price of a motif by looking at the traders next to me and then sold it successfully. I did this on console.

And what does that prove? Did you get the optimal price? Please see me anytime you want to sell motifs worth 50K plus and want to sell them for 100 gold based on the prices near you.

Did you really miss the point?

optimal price doesn't matter. What matters is the seller got the price they wanted. Would you refuse to run a dungeon because you are not sure you have the optimum gear? Same thing.

spartaxoxo

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Who needs to check 100+ traders to set their price? I play on PS NA, and all I check are the 3 alliance hubs.

For bigger ticket items, If I'm listing at my alliance city trader I list it competitively with everybody else around me. If I'm listing at a DLC trader I'll list it a bit cheaper, and make sure none of the other stalls in the same zone are listing it cheaper than me.

For general goods / smaller ticket items, I just set my own price based solely on the stalls near me.

And I do just fine. I'm not hurting for sales by any stretch of the meaning. The guilds I'm in aren't struggling either.

How much is a given motif worth? Something similar? Just checking the 15 or so traders you note is not sufficient, especially in the likely case none of them have that item. Sure it may work for common mats, but those are not the key money makers.

I literally just checked the price of a motif by looking at the traders next to me and then sold it successfully. I did this on console.

And what does that prove? Did you get the optimal price? Please see me anytime you want to sell motifs worth 50K plus and want to sell them for 100 gold based on the prices near you.

Did you really miss the point?

Why would the average price of the capital city traders be so much drastically lower? Capital city traders are mostly dedicated, hardcore traders.

I actually did do the whole go to each town thing before. I discovered that the capital city traders were correct. I went way out of my way on expensive item to have the best price on the whole server. Went to every single guild trader AND offered to match the price of any old guild trader listing that was lower than mine if I had somehow missed one.

I wasted hours because not a single person cared and I ended up putting it in my trader for capital city prices where it sold after a month. LOL

You're acting like people don't just go to some places like Elden Root and average out a price when they don't know what to list something for in smaller traders, but that's not the case.

There are no hidden prices. There are no set prices.

DenverRalphy

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Who needs to check 100+ traders to set their price? I play on PS NA, and all I check are the 3 alliance hubs.

For bigger ticket items, If I'm listing at my alliance city trader I list it competitively with everybody else around me. If I'm listing at a DLC trader I'll list it a bit cheaper, and make sure none of the other stalls in the same zone are listing it cheaper than me.

For general goods / smaller ticket items, I just set my own price based solely on the stalls near me.

And I do just fine. I'm not hurting for sales by any stretch of the meaning. The guilds I'm in aren't struggling either.

How much is a given motif worth? Something similar? Just checking the 15 or so traders you note is not sufficient, especially in the likely case none of them have that item. Sure it may work for common mats, but those are not the key money makers.

I sell motifs all the time. Of my Trade practice, common mats are less than 1% of my sales anymore. I've graduated way past selling common mats.

And there's no optimal price. There's simply "what you can get for it" price, and that's a variable that changes on a whimsy.

I simply price my items right at the sweet spot where a flipper would think twice about buying it because it's just expensive enough that it wouldn't be worth their time to flip it, and cheap enough that a person that is buying it because they need it won't feel ripped off for paying that price.

And I don't need to comb through 100+ traders to do it.

LadyLavina

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

The reason given was that with the recent changes to the economy, it was no longer profitable. I've read on the forums that all we had to do is wait a week or two for the trader bids to drop off and the market would correct itself but this doesn't seem to be the case.

Has anyone else lost their trade guild too?

What guild is it, out of curiosity?

Pelanora

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Who needs to check 100+ traders to set their price? I play on PS NA, and all I check are the 3 alliance hubs.

For bigger ticket items, If I'm listing at my alliance city trader I list it competitively with everybody else around me. If I'm listing at a DLC trader I'll list it a bit cheaper, and make sure none of the other stalls in the same zone are listing it cheaper than me.

For general goods / smaller ticket items, I just set my own price based solely on the stalls near me.

And I do just fine. I'm not hurting for sales by any stretch of the meaning. The guilds I'm in aren't struggling either.

How much is a given motif worth? Something similar? Just checking the 15 or so traders you note is not sufficient, especially in the likely case none of them have that item. Sure it may work for common mats, but those are not the key money makers.

Where have you got the idea from there is a value on a good, independent of what any one person wants to pay? Some platonic price we dimly find our way towards? Where have you got this idea from?

If I buy something for 10 dollars, it's worth ten dollars to me. Or rather, the opportunity cost of whatever i might have got for ten dollars. That's it's value. That's it.

If you could have found someone who would pay 100 dollars, then you've missed out on some money. But that's not to confuse value of the good, with value to the person. It's not some intrinsic property of the good. It's finding someone who wants to pay 100 vs 10.

That is very different from saying 'what is the value of the good' instead that's saying 'where can I find someone who's rich'. It's about the buyers values, not the goods values.

This is why ostrich feathers in hats aren't worth much these days, but made many people quite rich, once upon a time. The feathers haven't changed some fundamental property of value, the buyers just don't want 'em anymore.

What does this have to do with how much a given motif or recipe is worth? The rare PvP food one is worth quite a lot, but you may not find the true price in the current system.

Talking about feathers has nothing to do with the topic.

Though all of you who want to penalize players go ahead and support a broken system.

How did you miss what I just explained to you.

'Price' isn't a thing with an optimal truth. Demand is what you can find, 'what will people pay'. Is that what you mean?


Someone may pay more, than someone else. Yes. But that's about the buyers not the 'true price'.

LikiLoki

Economics is a complex tool and it is not always possible to calculate the consequences of gross changes from ZoS.
For example, we were promised that furniture resources would come across more often. Many were glad that now the furniture will be more affordable.
However, let's imagine that there will be a lot of raw materials. Their market value will be 2 coins. Then they will stop selling, people without a subscription will destroy them, people with a subscription will keep them in stock forever. Furniture sellers usually buy materials, but there is no sale, so furniture sellers will go to the forest and come to the conclusion that it will be better to sell logs, stones and grass, because a lot of time has already been spent.
Players who used to buy furniture for their homes will not find furniture in the store.
That is, an interesting incident occurred - the availability of materials led to the unavailability of materials and the decline of the entire furniture trade industry
And ordinary players will have to buy furniture schemes and upgrade professions to craft it themselves, but this will not improve the economy.
This is just one of the negative scenarios that may not happen. It all depends on the magnitude of the intervention.

MJallday

If people just priced competitively they might find their stuff sells and this problem goes away

Just because something is listed at an expensive price , doesn’t mean you have to buy it

I often look at something and think “meh for the prices of it I’ll farm it myself”

Heren

LikiLoki wrote: »

Economics is a complex tool and it is not always possible to calculate the consequences of gross changes from ZoS.
For example, we were promised that furniture resources would come across more often. Many were glad that now the furniture will be more affordable.
However, let's imagine that there will be a lot of raw materials. Their market value will be 2 coins. Then they will stop selling, people without a subscription will destroy them, people with a subscription will keep them in stock forever. Furniture sellers usually buy materials, but there is no sale, so furniture sellers will go to the forest and come to the conclusion that it will be better to sell logs, stones and grass, because a lot of time has already been spent.
Players who used to buy furniture for their homes will not find furniture in the store.
That is, an interesting incident occurred - the availability of materials led to the unavailability of materials and the decline of the entire furniture trade industry
And ordinary players will have to buy furniture schemes and upgrade professions to craft it themselves, but this will not improve the economy.
This is just one of the negative scenarios that may not happen. It all depends on the magnitude of the intervention.

We can all exerce our imaginations creating scenarii that are barely plausibles. And once again, yours is not very convincing at all. People will still sell things for the tiniest profit imaginable ( and sometime even for no profit ), and prices will go up and down accordingly to supply and demand among other things.

Most likely, if the price of a material go so down that no one bother selling it ( and that's already a huge stretch to assume something sill entirely and for a significant time disappear from the market ), but there is still demand for it ( as you state in your scenario ), then people will realize that they can certainly ask for a higher price selling this material, and they will most likely try to profit from this situation. And voilà, the entire furniture trade industry ( !!! ) is saved !

But I'm sure you can be even more dramatic than that.

PrincessOfThieves

MJallday wrote: »

If people just priced competitively they might find their stuff sells and this problem goes away

Just because something is listed at an expensive price , doesn’t mean you have to buy it

I often look at something and think “meh for the prices of it I’ll farm it myself”

No it doesn't.
Guild dues are still the same, house prices are still the same and even crowns are not getting much cheaper (PC/EU). You just need to farm 10xharder to be able to afford anything that's not a basic crafting material or motif.
The only people who benefit from this situation are the ones who already have tons of gold and can now buy more stuff with it.
I personally just stopped doing writs on alts and left my trading guild. It is simply not worth it anymore. So I would rather not trade at all that waste my own limited time on farming and selling items that aren't worth anything.

katanagirl1

LikiLoki wrote: »

Economics is a complex tool and it is not always possible to calculate the consequences of gross changes from ZoS.
For example, we were promised that furniture resources would come across more often. Many were glad that now the furniture will be more affordable.
However, let's imagine that there will be a lot of raw materials. Their market value will be 2 coins. Then they will stop selling, people without a subscription will destroy them, people with a subscription will keep them in stock forever. Furniture sellers usually buy materials, but there is no sale, so furniture sellers will go to the forest and come to the conclusion that it will be better to sell logs, stones and grass, because a lot of time has already been spent.
Players who used to buy furniture for their homes will not find furniture in the store.
That is, an interesting incident occurred - the availability of materials led to the unavailability of materials and the decline of the entire furniture trade industry
And ordinary players will have to buy furniture schemes and upgrade professions to craft it themselves, but this will not improve the economy.
This is just one of the negative scenarios that may not happen. It all depends on the magnitude of the intervention.

I see what you are saying, but furnishing mats aren’t like a handful of gold mats you need when an update comes along and changes the meta. They aren’t going to increase the drop rate of furnishing mats to make as much of an impact as you are suggesting. Each house needs thousands upon thousands of furnishing mats to complete. A scenario with gold mats would be more appropriate for your thought exercise.

Warhawke_80

I think that the phenomena of people avoiding trade guilds and buying and selling amongst themselves is having a real effect on the economy...many players just don't like the Trade Guild system...I mean you can get many items much cheaper if you just ask around...I have lost count on how many trade guild came and went during my time playing...


I know this will upset some folks but...I can't help but wonder if ZoS has considered an alternative like a Auction House...because I don't see the Trade Guild system getting any better.

Necrotech_Master

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I think that the phenomena of people avoiding trade guilds and buying and selling amongst themselves is having a real effect on the economy...many players just don't like the Trade Guild system...I mean you can get many items much cheaper if you just ask around...I have lost count on how many trade guild came and went during my time playing...


I know this will upset some folks but...I can't help but wonder if ZoS has considered an alternative like a Auction House...because I don't see the Trade Guild system getting any better.

i lost track of how many trade guilds i been in over the years, trade guilds fold all the time and new ones pop up, its been an ongoing thing for 10 years

i doubt they have any plans on making a central auction house at this point

my suggestion if ones trade guild folds is that they were poorly managing resources, and just join another guild, theres dozens of decent trade guilds out there

Warhawke_80

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I think that the phenomena of people avoiding trade guilds and buying and selling amongst themselves is having a real effect on the economy...many players just don't like the Trade Guild system...I mean you can get many items much cheaper if you just ask around...I have lost count on how many trade guild came and went during my time playing...


I know this will upset some folks but...I can't help but wonder if ZoS has considered an alternative like a Auction House...because I don't see the Trade Guild system getting any better.

i lost track of how many trade guilds i been in over the years, trade guilds fold all the time and new ones pop up, its been an ongoing thing for 10 years

i doubt they have any plans on making a central auction house at this point

my suggestion if ones trade guild folds is that they were poorly managing resources, and just join another guild, theres dozens of decent trade guilds out there

No you are right...tons of trade guilds...most of them are dead or dying but there are tons of them...but seriously if I start playing again I see no reason not to stick with those who do their buying and selling on chat....the prices and availability are objectively better.

Necrotech_Master

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I think that the phenomena of people avoiding trade guilds and buying and selling amongst themselves is having a real effect on the economy...many players just don't like the Trade Guild system...I mean you can get many items much cheaper if you just ask around...I have lost count on how many trade guild came and went during my time playing...


I know this will upset some folks but...I can't help but wonder if ZoS has considered an alternative like a Auction House...because I don't see the Trade Guild system getting any better.

i lost track of how many trade guilds i been in over the years, trade guilds fold all the time and new ones pop up, its been an ongoing thing for 10 years

i doubt they have any plans on making a central auction house at this point

my suggestion if ones trade guild folds is that they were poorly managing resources, and just join another guild, theres dozens of decent trade guilds out there

No you are right...tons of trade guilds...most of them are dead or dying but there are tons of them...but seriously if I start playing again I see no reason not to stick with those who do their buying and selling on chat....the prices and availability are objectively better.

not sure we are playing the same game then, cause theres plenty of guilds out there doing just fine, that dont even require dues

im in at least 2 fairly active trade guilds with no dues required, and im sure there are more out there

i know it doesnt help that the guild finder is not great

wolfie1.0.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

It just takes money from those who didn't know better and puts it in the hands of the ones who know a better price. Fine if the lower priced seller just wanted a quick sale, but the current system hides the true optimal price from many players, especially on console. That is not good game design.

• The ESO game design has no effect on the presence of flipping.

This is completely false.

This game is a pure example of this. You have to go to many different guild vendors to find the "normal" price for anything, especially something that is not common. A central auction house would make that data immediately available. Choosing either is a "game design choice" and thus has a major impact on some flipping.

That doesn't mean flipping can't or doesn't happen on games with a Central AH, but ESO makes it much more profitable and easier for those willing to focus on that part of the game to do so since most people will not devote the time to find the true price of something they earn (and can resell) in game.

The ESO game design has no effect on the presence of flipping.

There is nothing in the Guild system; and nothing in the default banking interface supplied in ESO, that enables, supports, or facilitates the idea of flipping.

I see you didn't read what I wrote. Normal players cannot find out the true value of something. That is a game design issue.

The true cost of every tradeable item is time.

WitchyKiki

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I think that the phenomena of people avoiding trade guilds and buying and selling amongst themselves is having a real effect on the economy...many players just don't like the Trade Guild system...I mean you can get many items much cheaper if you just ask around...I have lost count on how many trade guild came and went during my time playing...


I know this will upset some folks but...I can't help but wonder if ZoS has considered an alternative like a Auction House...because I don't see the Trade Guild system getting any better.

A lot of people say its too late to implement an AH. I used to play a very old game (that is still around) which didn't have a trading system in place besides chat. An AH was implemented and it served to boost the economy. ESO could have this.

wolfie1.0.

kargen27 wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Imagine citing buyers as the cause of inflation as opposed to price gouging and market manipulation.

What rot.

explain how someone can manipulate the market when there are over 200 vendors in game scattered across all the zones. How are they tracking all those vendors? TTC doesn't do it for them. Bargains are often gone before they even get posted there.

One doesn't need to do it on all of the vendors, just the most high trafficked vendors. Then go to the outlier vendors and buy up supply and resell at the the high traffic ones at the higher prices. Players pay for convenience, and are creatures of habit. So they will shop naturally at the places where they can find the most options that's close to where they like to hang out and do it on the regular. Sure doesn't apply to everyone but it applies to most.

wolfie1.0.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I think that the phenomena of people avoiding trade guilds and buying and selling amongst themselves is having a real effect on the economy...many players just don't like the Trade Guild system...I mean you can get many items much cheaper if you just ask around...I have lost count on how many trade guild came and went during my time playing...


I know this will upset some folks but...I can't help but wonder if ZoS has considered an alternative like a Auction House...because I don't see the Trade Guild system getting any better.

Zos has basically implied through various changes that they don't have the capacity to support it.

Personally I feel they are moving in a direction where trading is becoming less and less of an option. Most of their changes are making things account bound.

Scribing = account bound
New IC currency = account bound
Recon system = account bound
Leads and mythics = account bound
Grand master stations = account bound

Among others

Pelanora

The Rose guilds are trading fine. Join those.

kargen27

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Imagine citing buyers as the cause of inflation as opposed to price gouging and market manipulation.

What rot.

explain how someone can manipulate the market when there are over 200 vendors in game scattered across all the zones. How are they tracking all those vendors? TTC doesn't do it for them. Bargains are often gone before they even get posted there.

One doesn't need to do it on all of the vendors, just the most high trafficked vendors. Then go to the outlier vendors and buy up supply and resell at the the high traffic ones at the higher prices. Players pay for convenience, and are creatures of habit. So they will shop naturally at the places where they can find the most options that's close to where they like to hang out and do it on the regular. Sure doesn't apply to everyone but it applies to most.

Needing to go to the outlier vendors is exactly why they can't manipulate the market. Anybody can go to those same outliers. You are right that some players pay for convenience. That doesn't mean the entire market is being manipulated. Much like any other system in the game (PvP, trials and such) the more you participate the more you gain. Players that just want something quick are usually willing to pay extra to get it quick. That doesn't mean those willing to put in the time will be stuck paying those same prices.
My opinion is you might be underestimating how many people visit the outlier traders. I sometimes sell more at the trader my social guild occasionally gets for that week than I do with the trader in my trade guild.

kargen27

WitchyKiki wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I think that the phenomena of people avoiding trade guilds and buying and selling amongst themselves is having a real effect on the economy...many players just don't like the Trade Guild system...I mean you can get many items much cheaper if you just ask around...I have lost count on how many trade guild came and went during my time playing...


I know this will upset some folks but...I can't help but wonder if ZoS has considered an alternative like a Auction House...because I don't see the Trade Guild system getting any better.

A lot of people say its too late to implement an AH. I used to play a very old game (that is still around) which didn't have a trading system in place besides chat. An AH was implemented and it served to boost the economy. ESO could have this.

A central location would devastate the ESO economy. An auction house might have worked if it were the original system for the economy. There is so much gold in the game now it would be very easy for a few players to control all kinds of items with one central location listing everything. And of course almost any system would boost the economy of a game that had no system prior.
The ESO economy had a perfect storm of events that corrected the economy very quick. Would have been better if the correction was more drawn out giving players time to adjust. Going all at once was kind of a shock and a lot of trading guilds still have not adjusted to the new dynamic. Eventually they will adjust or fail. If they fail another will step in. The economy will be fine and already seems to be stabilizing some. Prices may never get back to where they once were but they will eventually begin to increase again.

WitchyKiki

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

If people just priced competitively they might find their stuff sells and this problem goes away

Just because something is listed at an expensive price , doesn’t mean you have to buy it

I often look at something and think “meh for the prices of it I’ll farm it myself”

No it doesn't.
Guild dues are still the same, house prices are still the same and even crowns are not getting much cheaper (PC/EU). You just need to farm 10xharder to be able to afford anything that's not a basic crafting material or motif.
The only people who benefit from this situation are the ones who already have tons of gold and can now buy more stuff with it.
I personally just stopped doing writs on alts and left my trading guild. It is simply not worth it anymore. So I would rather not trade at all that waste my own limited time on farming and selling items that aren't worth anything.

Join a trade guild that has a smaller trader without dues. You will be a great boost if you sell casually and get to socialize! I love my social guilds with the side traders, its why I dropped my capital city one. Fulfills my current needs.

Northwold

kargen27 wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Imagine citing buyers as the cause of inflation as opposed to price gouging and market manipulation.

What rot.

explain how someone can manipulate the market when there are over 200 vendors in game scattered across all the zones. How are they tracking all those vendors? TTC doesn't do it for them. Bargains are often gone before they even get posted there.

One doesn't need to do it on all of the vendors, just the most high trafficked vendors. Then go to the outlier vendors and buy up supply and resell at the the high traffic ones at the higher prices. Players pay for convenience, and are creatures of habit. So they will shop naturally at the places where they can find the most options that's close to where they like to hang out and do it on the regular. Sure doesn't apply to everyone but it applies to most.

Needing to go to the outlier vendors is exactly why they can't manipulate the market. Anybody can go to those same outliers. You are right that some players pay for convenience. That doesn't mean the entire market is being manipulated. Much like any other system in the game (PvP, trials and such) the more you participate the more you gain. Players that just want something quick are usually willing to pay extra to get it quick. That doesn't mean those willing to put in the time will be stuck paying those same prices.
My opinion is you might be underestimating how many people visit the outlier traders. I sometimes sell more at the trader my social guild occasionally gets for that week than I do with the trader in my trade guild.

The functioning of markets is determined by how the market actually functions. Not how some niche of the market that isn't representative of the whole engages with it.

Because most players concentrate essentially only on the most frequented traders, ESO's economy is *highly* susceptible to manipulation. Indeed, it's arguably much more susceptible to manipulation than conceivable alternatives to the guild traders because *so much* of the selling base isn't in the core locations and therefore has an utterly trivial influence on the way the market as a whole behaves. Lots of sellers who would put pressure on prices in principle, but in fact don't because pricing is set only in prime locations and they aren't there.

In this thread we have people who apparently believe they are contradicting this point *confirming it* by saying it's easy to find the "market price" on console -- that you just have to check the traders *in the core locations*. Ergo, the pricing at outlying traders is made completely irrelevant to the perceived level of "market prices".

They designed an economy for players to shop around, disregarding the obvious: that in an MMO most players really don't find it especially entertaining spending two hours of their free time window shopping from one loading screen to the next. So they don't.

TaSheen

Northwold wrote: »

The functioning of markets is determined by how the market actually functions. Not how some niche of the market that isn't representative of the whole engages with it.

Because most players concentrate essentially only on the most frequented traders, ESO's economy is *highly* susceptible to manipulation. Indeed, it's arguably much more susceptible to manipulation than conceivable alternatives to the guild traders because *so much* of the selling base isn't in the core locations and therefore has an utterly trivial influence on the way the market as a whole behaves. Lots of sellers who would put pressure on prices in principle, but in fact don't because pricing is set only in prime locations.

In this thread we have people who apparently believe they are contradicting this point *confirming it* by saying it's easy to find the market price on console -- that you just have to check the traders *in the core locations*. Ergo, the pricing at outlying traders is made completely irrelevant to the perceived level of "market prices".

They designed an economy for players to shop around, disregarding the obvious: that in an MMO most players really don't find it especially entertaining spending two hours of their free time window shopping from one loading screen to the next. So they don't.

Yeah. I am not going to waste time when I need something to run around the hinterlands. If it's not available in Vivec at the price I'm willing to pay (not a lot btw), I will just do without it or farm it myself. I don't buy gear, so it's the occasional mats when I'm out of something and don't have a survey for it and I have better things to do than run all over hell's half acre for nodes (mind you, this is not something that happens often....)

I really really dislike this entire system, so I interact with it as little as humanly possible. Nothing will change my mind about that.

Nharimlur_Finor

LikiLoki wrote: »

Players who used to buy furniture for their homes will not find furniture in the store.

That's because Crafters are no longer interested in all the preparation work to create it:

• Research and leveling-up time. (in order to do writs)
• Master Writ processing to buy gold and purple furnishing recipes
• Expending huge volumes of mats on individual pieces
• Listing items at super-expensive prices just to recover the mat costs

and subsequently:

The indignity of what are well-priced rare but expensive furnishings simply not selling, because other players don't understand the real costs (not prices) of producing high-level furniture.

It hasn't just been 'gimme profit' for all traders; some of us enjoyed making the things that other players might want or need.

Nharimlur_Finor

TaSheen wrote: »

Yeah. I am not going to waste time when I need something to run around the hinterlands. If it's not available in Vivec at the price I'm willing to pay (not a lot btw), I will just do without it or farm it myself. I don't buy gear, so it's the occasional mats when I'm out of something and don't have a survey for it and I have better things to do than run all over hell's half acre for nodes (mind you, this is not something that happens often....)

I really really dislike this entire system, so I interact with it as little as humanly possible. Nothing will change my mind about that.

On PC EU, one regular Guild expects their traders to sell 700 000 in goods every week.

• That encourages BOT farming
• That encourages flipping
• That encourages price gouging on rare items
• If, as a trader, you are only in Vivec and/or Mournhold guilds, then the prices you see recommended by your addons, are all slightly higher. Your prices will increase as sales data is mainly (by volume) sourced from these expensive guilds and the cheaper prices disappear as people don't buy the cheaper, outlying options.
• When cheaper items are bought, they are relisted for the current rate

This makes price increases a built-in outcome.

Most anecdotal eveidence at the forum says operating a trading guild to support 400 other players is a lot of effort.
Guilds that are folding are probably doing so because the Guild leader can't do that work anymore to retain a location.

There's just as much anecdotal evidence that there are many guilds that don't focus on this rat-race, popular-location type of trading guild management, that are doing just fine. My only guild doesn't have a trader this week. I'm selling so little that it won't matter.

All this angst because people choose to shop in one location only.

Whatever your choice, at least now it's an informed one.

TaSheen

LaintalAy wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Yeah. I am not going to waste time when I need something to run around the hinterlands. If it's not available in Vivec at the price I'm willing to pay (not a lot btw), I will just do without it or farm it myself. I don't buy gear, so it's the occasional mats when I'm out of something and don't have a survey for it and I have better things to do than run all over hell's half acre for nodes (mind you, this is not something that happens often....)

I really really dislike this entire system, so I interact with it as little as humanly possible. Nothing will change my mind about that.

On PC EU, one regular Guild expects their traders to sell 700 000 in goods every week.

• That encourages BOT farming
• That encourages flipping
• That encourages price gouging on rare items
• If, as a trader, you are only in Vivec and/or Mournhold guilds, then the prices you see recommended by your addons, are all slightly higher. Your prices will increase as sales data is mainly (by volume) sourced from these expensive guilds and the cheaper prices disappear as people don't buy the cheaper, outlying options.
• When cheaper items are bought, they are relisted for the current rate

This makes price increases a built-in outcome.

Most anecdotal eveidence at the forum says operating a trading guild to support 400 other players is a lot of effort.
Guilds that are folding are probably doing so because the Guild leader can't do that work anymore to retain a location.

There's just as much anecdotal evidence that there are many guilds that don't focus on this rat-race, popular-location type of trading guild management, that are doing just fine. My only guild doesn't have a trader this week. I'm selling so little that it won't matter.

All this angst because people choose to shop in one location only.

Whatever your choice, at least now it's an informed one.

Silly. I've been here for years. I already know everything I need to know to be "informed". Which is why I "shop" only in Vivec. I find arguments like this one.... specious and useless. And y'know? I don't give a rat's patoot if guilds are doing "fine" somewhere.

WitchyKiki

I just shop in the guilds I am a part of first, and I tend to find whatever I'm looking for most of the time. Even if I pay a little more, I want to support my guildmates above all else.

wolfie1.0.

kargen27 wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Imagine citing buyers as the cause of inflation as opposed to price gouging and market manipulation.

What rot.

explain how someone can manipulate the market when there are over 200 vendors in game scattered across all the zones. How are they tracking all those vendors? TTC doesn't do it for them. Bargains are often gone before they even get posted there.

One doesn't need to do it on all of the vendors, just the most high trafficked vendors. Then go to the outlier vendors and buy up supply and resell at the the high traffic ones at the higher prices. Players pay for convenience, and are creatures of habit. So they will shop naturally at the places where they can find the most options that's close to where they like to hang out and do it on the regular. Sure doesn't apply to everyone but it applies to most.

Needing to go to the outlier vendors is exactly why they can't manipulate the market. Anybody can go to those same outliers. You are right that some players pay for convenience. That doesn't mean the entire market is being manipulated. Much like any other system in the game (PvP, trials and such) the more you participate the more you gain. Players that just want something quick are usually willing to pay extra to get it quick. That doesn't mean those willing to put in the time will be stuck paying those same prices.
My opinion is you might be underestimating how many people visit the outlier traders. I sometimes sell more at the trader my social guild occasionally gets for that week than I do with the trader in my trade guild.

you asked for how someone could manipulate the market. I provided an example. Price manipulation and price control are not necessarily the same thing. what i described above is basically what flippers have been doing for all of ESO. taking items from outlier, remote, less frequented areas and then selling them at prices in the major hubs. Players who don't want to waste time visiting those places go to the hubs out of convenience. because a significant part of the sales happen at those hubs and players KNOW that they happen there, then those sales slip back into the system and prices increase as players filter that information back into the system. It is a long haul version of manipulation, and it can happen unintentionally but it does happen, and those central hubs aren't exactly occupied by many different people. Keep in mind that the same can happen to tank prices as well.

ask this question: If Addons like TTC and MM were banned 100% from the game, where you go to find out how much you can sell things for? where would you check to find our as quickly and conveniently as possible? then ask how that source can be manipulated. Can MM and TTC be influenced? definitely. but they equalize the system.

Now, while humans are also creatures of habit, they can also be very very irrational and group think is prevalent. so if consumer confidence in a system tanks to the gutter, then it will take a great amount of effort to recover it.

i will also add again, that ZOS wont add a centralized auction house, not unless they severely limit how, who, and when people can access it. rather i would expect them to either make the supply easier to source, or remove/reduce what can be traded before they do a full everything goes AH system.

kargen27

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Imagine citing buyers as the cause of inflation as opposed to price gouging and market manipulation.

What rot.

explain how someone can manipulate the market when there are over 200 vendors in game scattered across all the zones. How are they tracking all those vendors? TTC doesn't do it for them. Bargains are often gone before they even get posted there.

One doesn't need to do it on all of the vendors, just the most high trafficked vendors. Then go to the outlier vendors and buy up supply and resell at the the high traffic ones at the higher prices. Players pay for convenience, and are creatures of habit. So they will shop naturally at the places where they can find the most options that's close to where they like to hang out and do it on the regular. Sure doesn't apply to everyone but it applies to most.

Needing to go to the outlier vendors is exactly why they can't manipulate the market. Anybody can go to those same outliers. You are right that some players pay for convenience. That doesn't mean the entire market is being manipulated. Much like any other system in the game (PvP, trials and such) the more you participate the more you gain. Players that just want something quick are usually willing to pay extra to get it quick. That doesn't mean those willing to put in the time will be stuck paying those same prices.
My opinion is you might be underestimating how many people visit the outlier traders. I sometimes sell more at the trader my social guild occasionally gets for that week than I do with the trader in my trade guild.

you asked for how someone could manipulate the market. I provided an example. Price manipulation and price control are not necessarily the same thing. what i described above is basically what flippers have been doing for all of ESO. taking items from outlier, remote, less frequented areas and then selling them at prices in the major hubs. Players who don't want to waste time visiting those places go to the hubs out of convenience. because a significant part of the sales happen at those hubs and players KNOW that they happen there, then those sales slip back into the system and prices increase as players filter that information back into the system. It is a long haul version of manipulation, and it can happen unintentionally but it does happen, and those central hubs aren't exactly occupied by many different people. Keep in mind that the same can happen to tank prices as well.

ask this question: If Addons like TTC and MM were banned 100% from the game, where you go to find out how much you can sell things for? where would you check to find our as quickly and conveniently as possible? then ask how that source can be manipulated. Can MM and TTC be influenced? definitely. but they equalize the system.

Now, while humans are also creatures of habit, they can also be very very irrational and group think is prevalent. so if consumer confidence in a system tanks to the gutter, then it will take a great amount of effort to recover it.

i will also add again, that ZOS wont add a centralized auction house, not unless they severely limit how, who, and when people can access it. rather i would expect them to either make the supply easier to source, or remove/reduce what can be traded before they do a full everything goes AH system.

You provided an example of how a portion of the market can be manipulated. Again flippers tend to seek out bargains and flip at market price. To risky to list above market price. So in your scenario the major traders prices are not above market price they are market price and the flippers are not affecting that price by listing at or near that price. Flippers actually except for the really rare items probably come in on the low side of the price average as flipping a large quantity of items generates much more profits than selling a few items at high prices.

I still would like to see a central board in each zone that lists all the items and their location in that zone. No prices would be listed and you would still need to go to the vendor to purchase. That way players in a hurry to buy can just go to most convenient trader with the item and bargain hunters will need to visit each trader that has the item.