This Sanguine design is not good

laniakea_0

BretonMage wrote: »

Do daedric princes actually put on weight when they drink and eat to excess? I'm pretty sure he can look as buff or as fat as he wants to. Maybe he keeps buff to seduce mortals, who knows?

considering that daedric princes are the physical embodiment of their sphere of influence (and vice versa), yes he absolutely should look "well fed" to put it lightly. not because he would put on weight if he indulges so much, which he can't, but because that would likely be the form he would willingly choose most of the time. It does make sense for him to regularly take on shapes that appeal more to specific kinds of people than his standard form does. after all, he is temptation personified. but there's no reason for him to retain that form over one that clearly expresses his lavish lifestyle.

Syldras

laniakea_0 wrote: »

considering that daedric princes are the physical embodiment of their sphere of influence (and vice versa), yes he absolutely should look "well fed" to put it lightly. not because he would put on weight if he indulges so much, which he can't, but because that would likely be the form he would willingly choose most of the time. It does make sense for him to regularly take on shapes that appeal more to specific kinds of people than his standard form does. after all, he is temptation personified. but there's no reason for him to retain that form over one that clearly expresses his lavish lifestyle.

The ones who spend their whole time eating in Sanguine's realm, until they get nauseous (and vomit, then continue eating once more - an eternal circle), until they finally die from it, are certainly well-fed. The ones forced to dance without ever eating, drinking or resting, probably not so much. Same goes for the skooma addicts.

And still, the Daedric Princes can freely choose their form. And change it all the time. Sanguine could manifest as a fat old drunkard one time, as an charming and athletic seducer the next. He could show as an arena fighter, as a vintner, as something not humanoid at all. The possibilies are endless.

Although that doesn't even matter in this regard, actually. The question is: In which form would his followers want to depict him? And how much humans' views on this can differ is clearly visible in this thread.

laniakea_0

Syldras wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

considering that daedric princes are the physical embodiment of their sphere of influence (and vice versa), yes he absolutely should look "well fed" to put it lightly. not because he would put on weight if he indulges so much, which he can't, but because that would likely be the form he would willingly choose most of the time. It does make sense for him to regularly take on shapes that appeal more to specific kinds of people than his standard form does. after all, he is temptation personified. but there's no reason for him to retain that form over one that clearly expresses his lavish lifestyle.

The ones who spend their whole time eating in Sanguine's realm, until they get nauseous (and vomit, then continue eating once more - an eternal circle), until they finally die from it, are certainly well-fed. The ones forced to dance without ever eating, drinking or resting, probably not so much. Same goes for the skooma addicts.

And still, the Daedric Princes can freely choose their form. And change it all the time. Sanguine could manifest as a fat old drunkard one time, as an charming and athletic seducer the next. He could show as an arena fighter, as a vintner, as something not humanoid at all. The possibilies are endless.

Although that doesn't even matter in this regard, actually. The question is: In which form would his followers want to depict him? And how much humans' views on this can differ is clearly visible in this thread.

as I said, the two are synonymous. sanguine chooses the form of the perverted fat guy because this is the form naturally associate with his sphere. yes, he can and will change shapes if it gets him closer to his goals (like all daedric princes) but that doesn't change his will. honestly, the slim athletic style really doesn't fit. you don't get fit by excessive exercise but through discipline, meaning self-control. that is antithetical to his nature. that image wouldn't please him. literally, the only time he would choose to appear "conventionally attractive" is if it aids him in his seductions. and even then he would prefer to convince/bribe them to deal with him in his chosen form over relying on looks alone. and let's be realistic: Sanguine worshippers probably like him just the way he is and they build the statues. which leads to this conclusion. looking at how consistent his appearance was before Skyrim, it is obvious that the devs at the time chose to neglect his essence. ESO has since copied this. that is not an improvement.

cyclonus11

I disagree. Lecherous indulgence does not equate to being overweight. I think the statue is fine.

Syldras

laniakea_0 wrote: »

as I said, the two are synonymous. sanguine chooses the form of the perverted fat guy because this is the form naturally associate with his sphere. yes, he can and will change shapes if it gets him closer to his goals (like all daedric princes) but that doesn't change his will. honestly, the slim athletic style really doesn't fit. you don't get fit by excessive exercise but through discipline, meaning self-control. that is antithetical to his nature. that image wouldn't please him.

There are people who do sports excessively and get really muscular from it. Not by self-control or discipline, but really driven by something like an addiction. I knew examples from real life, in person. Also, people's metabolisms vary. Some people can eat lots and still don't gain weight, others gain muscles very fast, etc.

laniakea_0 wrote: »

literally, the only time he would choose to appear "conventionally attractive" is if it aids him in his seductions. and even then he would prefer to convince/bribe them to deal with him in his chosen form over relying on looks alone. and let's be realistic: Sanguine worshippers probably like him just the way he is and they build the statues. which leads to this conclusion. looking at how consistent his appearance was before Skyrim, it is obvious that the devs at the time chose to neglect his essence. ESO has since copied this. that is not an improvement.

Well, he showed up in only 4 games, to be fair. In two of them (Daggerfall and Oblivion) he has the fat goblin look, in another two (Skyrim and ESO) he has not. Two examples aren't much to talk about a consistency that could be broken.

In general, my perspective is this: Sanguine's theme is excess when it comes to pleasures. Excess in eating and drinking means a high calorie intake and lets people gain weight, yes. But there's much more that Sanguine represents, that does not lead to becoming a lazy fat drunkard. Excess in fighting and violence. Excess in drug usage/abuse. Excess in carnal relations. It's a bit complicated to write about this in this forum, but one of Sanguine's titles is literally "the Daedra Prince of Lust, Perversity, and Unnatural Sexual Relations". Imagine a sex-crazed erotomaniac driven by a curse-induced compulsion to jump every living, dead und undead creature he can reach; without end, completely out of his mind, without any self-control left, and this has become the whole focus of his existence which he pursues until total exhaustion, never minding anything else anymore - this would be totally Sanguine's domain. And this person would probably not look like a leisurely and fat person. And if we take the "dark pleasures" or "perversity" aspect into consideration... Let's say there are a lot of horrible possibilities that do not lead to a weight gain (people who have read any of de Sade's works will know what I mean - some of them can almost be read as a clinical compendium of perversities, these are not amusing bawdy tales, like some people might imagine; unless you find tales of pulling people's teeth out and chopping their limbs off for fun a nice bedtime lecture).

spartaxoxo

laniakea_0 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

considering that daedric princes are the physical embodiment of their sphere of influence (and vice versa), yes he absolutely should look "well fed" to put it lightly. not because he would put on weight if he indulges so much, which he can't, but because that would likely be the form he would willingly choose most of the time. It does make sense for him to regularly take on shapes that appeal more to specific kinds of people than his standard form does. after all, he is temptation personified. but there's no reason for him to retain that form over one that clearly expresses his lavish lifestyle.

The ones who spend their whole time eating in Sanguine's realm, until they get nauseous (and vomit, then continue eating once more - an eternal circle), until they finally die from it, are certainly well-fed. The ones forced to dance without ever eating, drinking or resting, probably not so much. Same goes for the skooma addicts.

And still, the Daedric Princes can freely choose their form. And change it all the time. Sanguine could manifest as a fat old drunkard one time, as an charming and athletic seducer the next. He could show as an arena fighter, as a vintner, as something not humanoid at all. The possibilies are endless.

Although that doesn't even matter in this regard, actually. The question is: In which form would his followers want to depict him? And how much humans' views on this can differ is clearly visible in this thread.

as I said, the two are synonymous. sanguine chooses the form of the perverted fat guy because this is the form naturally associate with his sphere. yes, he can and will change shapes if it gets him closer to his goals (like all daedric princes) but that doesn't change his will. honestly, the slim athletic style really doesn't fit. you don't get fit by excessive exercise but through discipline, meaning self-control. that is antithetical to his nature. that image wouldn't please him. literally, the only time he would choose to appear "conventionally attractive" is if it aids him in his seductions. and even then he would prefer to convince/bribe them to deal with him in his chosen form over relying on looks alone. and let's be realistic: Sanguine worshippers probably like him just the way he is and they build the statues. which leads to this conclusion. looking at how consistent his appearance was before Skyrim, it is obvious that the devs at the time chose to neglect his essence. ESO has since copied this. that is not an improvement.

There's been plenty of examples shown that is not the case. It wasn't the case a long time ago (as shown by all the centuries old artwork linked in this thread), and it's not automatically the case even in current times. If they were to put Sanguine's vibes in a current setting, like today on Earth, they'd probably make him a fit, frat dude. Key and Peele actually did a sketch like that called The Party Don't Stop. I'll not link it due to its dark content. It's not a reference to the Elder Scrolls. Just to an evil party that seems fun at first until you realize you're trapped forever. Note: Key and Peele do not play a Sanguine like character, but rather his victims. Regardless, that's probably how most would depict his realm if they were to transport him into a more current setting.

Yeah, you're right that they did do a significant change to his appearance in Skyrim. But that's not necessarily because they wanted to neglect his essence. Perhaps they thought the new look would be a better fit.

TaSheen

Syldras wrote: »

although I think, "sanguine" also exists in the English language, both for a certain personality as well as for a colour?

Sanguine in English refers to the red color of arterial blood. Otherwise, the temperament "sanguine" is defined as: optimistic or positive, especially in an apparently bad or difficult situation - "he is sanguine about prospects for the global economy".

Jimbru

Given that Sanguine is basically a Daedric cousin to Dibella, perhaps the "fit and fearsome" look was meant to represent the commanding nature of desire that hedonists follow throughout their lives.

Lapin_Logic

Simple answer for both ESO and Skyrim is new model = disk space, but generic avatar in Daedric armour is a quick and dirty fix

katanagirl1

So if Daedric princes can manifest in any form, does that mean they exist most of the time in a formless state? I’m not as deep in the lore as most of you, just curious if it says anywhere.

Syldras

katanagirl1 wrote: »

So if Daedric princes can manifest in any form, does that mean they exist most of the time in a formless state? I’m not as deep in the lore as most of you, just curious if it says anywhere.

I don't think there's any official source about what state they're usually in, but generally speaking, they are spirits. I'd compare them to a kind of energy. If they need or want to form, they can form in any shape and also shapeshift, just as they like. Maybe it really depends on their will whether they're mostly formless or not. A Daedric Prince that has more physical interests and regularly interactions with mortals such as Sanguine might usually be manifested, while others like Hermaeus Mora might care less about that and stay in a spirit/energy form most of the time.

BretonMage

laniakea_0 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Do daedric princes actually put on weight when they drink and eat to excess? I'm pretty sure he can look as buff or as fat as he wants to. Maybe he keeps buff to seduce mortals, who knows?

considering that daedric princes are the physical embodiment of their sphere of influence (and vice versa), yes he absolutely should look "well fed" to put it lightly. not because he would put on weight if he indulges so much, which he can't, but because that would likely be the form he would willingly choose most of the time. It does make sense for him to regularly take on shapes that appeal more to specific kinds of people than his standard form does. after all, he is temptation personified. but there's no reason for him to retain that form over one that clearly expresses his lavish lifestyle.

While it would be unlikely for him to look ascetic, I'd say it wouldn't make sense for him to look like someone unhealthily large either. He still needs to seduce and lead astray, which means an appealing, even misdirecting, form. But most importantly, I believe that he would choose a form that he himself desires to portray, and it looks like this is the form he desires.

Kallykat

Please ignore this post...
(I love intellectual debates about inconsequential fantasy lore, and I don't want to lose this thread.)

TX12001rwb17_ESO

A Daedric God can choose to appear however he wants, if you could choose why would you willingly choose to look like a slob?

Syldras

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

A Daedric God can choose to appear however he wants, if you could choose why would you willingly choose to look like a slob?

Yeah, I usually prefer to manifest as a friendly scholar willingly showering people with knowledge and answering every question they ask me and before they notice, their mind is filled with horrid facts about humanity driving them into despair, not by evil magic, but by reality itself.

Sometimes I also manifest as the flame of a grave candle. My followers visit cemeteries in winter nights to press their ear against every lantern they see to find the one that faintly whispers.

And if I feel the need for a more physical form, I sometimes choose the shape of a Vvardvark. No one would suspect that

laniakea_0

BretonMage wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Do daedric princes actually put on weight when they drink and eat to excess? I'm pretty sure he can look as buff or as fat as he wants to. Maybe he keeps buff to seduce mortals, who knows?

considering that daedric princes are the physical embodiment of their sphere of influence (and vice versa), yes he absolutely should look "well fed" to put it lightly. not because he would put on weight if he indulges so much, which he can't, but because that would likely be the form he would willingly choose most of the time. It does make sense for him to regularly take on shapes that appeal more to specific kinds of people than his standard form does. after all, he is temptation personified. but there's no reason for him to retain that form over one that clearly expresses his lavish lifestyle.

While it would be unlikely for him to look ascetic, I'd say it wouldn't make sense for him to look like someone unhealthily large either. He still needs to seduce and lead astray, which means an appealing, even misdirecting, form. But most importantly, I believe that he would choose a form that he himself desires to portray, and it looks like this is the form he desires.

that's not how he works. he isn't desperate to seduce mortals. he doesn't need to use all advantages at his disposal. Sanguine wants to corrupt and pervert. when it comes to personal seduction in particular, look at it like this: Instead of walking up to a woman while looking like Prince Charming hoping she falls for him easily, he would rather appear to her as an ugly lump of a man or even a beast (to give you an idea: his rituals often involve goats) and use rhetoric, promises of untold pleasure and freedom and even bribes to convince her into letting him mount her. the more depraved he can get his target to become, the higher his satisfaction. so no, Sanguine doesn't want to present himself to people as an image of health. not unless he's confident it'll lead to depravity. it's a means to an end, not his preferred form.

Syldras

laniakea_0 wrote: »

that's not how he works. he isn't desperate to seduce mortals. he doesn't need to use all advantages at his disposal. Sanguine wants to corrupt and pervert. when it comes to personal seduction in particular, look at it like this: Instead of walking up to a woman while looking like Prince Charming hoping she falls for him easily, he would rather appear to her as an ugly lump of a man or even a beast (to give you an idea: his rituals often involve goats) and use rhetoric, promises of untold pleasure and freedom and even bribes to convince her into letting him mount her. the more depraved he can get his target to become, the higher his satisfaction. so no, Sanguine doesn't want to present himself to people as an image of health. not unless he's confident it'll lead to depravity. it's a means to an end, not his preferred form.

He wants to ruin and corrupt, yes. But what's there to corrupt if the person is already corrupted? What would be more amusing from Sanguine's perspective: Approaching a morally questionable woman as a goat who willingly accepts his invitation to mate with her in this form? Or flattering or seducing a fine noblewoman or even a priestess, carefully luring her in and seducing her to ever more extreme acts until she's torn into a moral abyss? The more extreme the fall, the more satisfying it is for him, I'm sure.

Kisakee

He can look how he wants, he can wear what he wants and he doesn't need anyone to do whatever he wants.

laniakea_0

Syldras wrote: »

laniakea_0 wrote: »

that's not how he works. he isn't desperate to seduce mortals. he doesn't need to use all advantages at his disposal. Sanguine wants to corrupt and pervert. when it comes to personal seduction in particular, look at it like this: Instead of walking up to a woman while looking like Prince Charming hoping she falls for him easily, he would rather appear to her as an ugly lump of a man or even a beast (to give you an idea: his rituals often involve goats) and use rhetoric, promises of untold pleasure and freedom and even bribes to convince her into letting him mount her. the more depraved he can get his target to become, the higher his satisfaction. so no, Sanguine doesn't want to present himself to people as an image of health. not unless he's confident it'll lead to depravity. it's a means to an end, not his preferred form.

He wants to ruin and corrupt, yes. But what's there to corrupt if the person is already corrupted? What would be more amusing from Sanguine's perspective: Approaching a morally questionable woman as a goat who willingly accepts his invitation to mate with her in this form? Or flattering or seducing a fine noblewoman or even a priestess, carefully luring her in and seducing her to ever more extreme acts until she's torn into a moral abyss? The more extreme the fall, the more satisfying it is for him, I'm sure.

I just want to note that there's no such thing as rock bottom. people can always descent deeper into depravity. but other than that that's exactly my point. he can and will take on a "flattering" form if he can use it to corrupt someone conceited. but he's not going to stick to that form afterwards since it's really only the first step in corrupting that one. afterwards he'll take on more depraved forms again. meanwhile, his worshipers don't bother with such pretenses. they'll present him as the image of indulgence he's meant to be and they strive to become. *** (edit: not sure why this word get's censored but it described frequent intimate relations), debauchery, gluttony; not fitness.

Syldras

laniakea_0 wrote: »

I just want to note that there's no such thing as rock bottom. people can always decent deeper into depravity.

I'm not sure if there's really no end. I have mentioned the literary works of de Sade before (meaning the "libertinous" ones; he has also written philosophical and political works, that are more interesting, in my opinion, but I digress). There's a certain story I do not recommend reading (and I rarely do that), but the gist of it is that a bunch of wealthy people (symbolizing different societal groups: nobility, wealthy bourgeoisie, clergy, jurisprudence) meets up at a remote castle to celebrate a carnal revelry over several months, "together" with servants and slaves. They already start with depraved acts, but still, once they've done a thing for a while, it becomes "usual", so it's not exciting anymore, and they move on to the next extreme. It's basically a weird progression through everything considered a criminal paraphilia today, and it ends with mutilation and murder, still in the carnal context. And I'm really not sure if there's a way to outdo that. It was probably the weirdest read I ever had and it lead to a lot of questions (including whether there are people who really enjoy this novel as salacious entertainment, which is a disturbing thought, and why the 1920 luxury edition with art nouveau decor of this, that I was holding in my hands, even exists).

But, what I actually wanted to say: The knowledge of this certainly influences my imagination of what Sanguine's parties can lead to, if things get increasingly grisly. But that's of course also a question of one's individual focus. With my knowledge that Sanguine is also called the "Daedra Prince of Lust, Perversity, and Unnatural Sexual Relations" (and the Ayleid traditions of art-torture and gut gardening certainly don't make it better), I think of this. Others only know him from Skyrim and think it's funny lewd acts like inappropriately touching a statue of a nude Goddess and getting horribly drunk, or maybe they mostly remember the funny little prank in Oblivion where you cast a spell to render everyone naked at a party of prudish nobles.

laniakea_0 wrote: »

but other than that that's exactly my point. he can and will take on a "flattering" form if he can use it to corrupt someone conceited. but he's not going to stick to that form afterwards since it's really only the first step in corrupting that one. afterwards he'll take on more depraved forms again.

Can we know? Maybe he likes himself as a seducer?

Also, the joy of corrupting people is rooted in sadism or a wish for dominance/control. It's about having so much power to be able to completely ruin an individual. With that character, wouldn't he choose to look in a way that radiates that power?

laniakea_0 wrote: »

meanwhile, his worshipers don't bother with such pretenses. they'll present him as the image of indulgence he's meant to be and they strive to become. *** (edit: not sure why this word get's censored but it described frequent intimate relations), debauchery, gluttony; not fitness.

Unless they are his willing servants and want to help him to seduce more not yet corrupted people. For example by erecting a statue of him where he looks appealing

I wouldn't describe his depiction as "fit", btw. It's not about health or being athletic. I don't see a muscular person, I see spiky, demonic, ornate armour. I'd interpret the whole thing as powerful, proud and alluring, in a dark and dangerous way.

Then, we could also discuss whether Sanguine even has long-time followers who enjoy being in his realm, or whether that's just the beginning, but the people are getting miserable on their descent into moralic hell. The goat thing is obviously a reference to how people in rl imagined a witches sabbath, but Sanguine is more than a devil celebrating frisky revelries with a willing coven.

Syldras

I've come across another nice detail, the description for Sanguine's Rose in Daggerfall

The Sanguine Rose is not an artifact most folk would care to have. It summons a lesser daedra to the user. The daedra will attack any other creature in the area except the bearer of the rose. The rose is like any other in that it will wilt. The more of its power that is used, the more wilted it becomes. Eventually all its petals fall off and it loses its powers. Somewhere in Oblivion a new rose blooms and is plucked by Sanguine herself to be given to a new champion.

Yes, it's no new info that Daedric Princes can show in any form they like. But it counters the statement that Sanguine had been established as an ugly fat male ogre (and nothing else) until Skyrim.

xylena_lazarow

Nothing wrong with him being fit, but why does he look the same as a million other armored daedra?

Syldras

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Nothing wrong with him being fit, but why does he look the same as a million other armored daedra?

But he has the seductive and debaucherous quality of hair!

BretonMage

Syldras wrote: »

I've come across another nice detail, the description for Sanguine's Rose in Daggerfall

The Sanguine Rose is not an artifact most folk would care to have. It summons a lesser daedra to the user. The daedra will attack any other creature in the area except the bearer of the rose. The rose is like any other in that it will wilt. The more of its power that is used, the more wilted it becomes. Eventually all its petals fall off and it loses its powers. Somewhere in Oblivion a new rose blooms and is plucked by Sanguine herself to be given to a new champion.

Yes, it's no new info that Daedric Princes can show in any form they like. But it counters the statement that Sanguine had been established as an ugly fat male ogre (and nothing else) until Skyrim.

Interesting! So is Sanguine actually a they?

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Nothing wrong with him being fit, but why does he look the same as a million other armored daedra?

It would actually be great if he/they got a unique outfit like the other daedric princes.

Syldras

BretonMage wrote: »

Interesting! So is Sanguine actually a they?

I don't think Daedric Princes are interested in social categories created by mortals.

In the end they are all spirits or energies that can show in any form they want. Some prefer a female form more often, some a male form, some switch all the time. Even Molag Bal did manifest as female at least once ("Molag Bal, the Schemer Princess"):
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Invocation_of_Azura

Soarora

BretonMage wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I've come across another nice detail, the description for Sanguine's Rose in Daggerfall

The Sanguine Rose is not an artifact most folk would care to have. It summons a lesser daedra to the user. The daedra will attack any other creature in the area except the bearer of the rose. The rose is like any other in that it will wilt. The more of its power that is used, the more wilted it becomes. Eventually all its petals fall off and it loses its powers. Somewhere in Oblivion a new rose blooms and is plucked by Sanguine herself to be given to a new champion.

Yes, it's no new info that Daedric Princes can show in any form they like. But it counters the statement that Sanguine had been established as an ugly fat male ogre (and nothing else) until Skyrim.

Interesting! So is Sanguine actually a they?

Every Prince is, really. That's why they're all Princes, no "Princesses" even for the ones that tend to show as female. Their physical form we see is just a shape they chose, multiple Princes are known to shapeshift though the one most shown as changing forms to us is Boethiah for whatever reason.

BretonMage

I know some of them always manifest as female, like Azura, and others always manifest as male. I had assumed Sanguine was the latter, but maybe not.

The pronouns I know are a human convention, but it was just a thought, for our use. Of course, I don't expect any of the daedric princes to care about pronouns.

vsrs_au

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Nothing wrong with him being fit, but why does he look the same as a million other armored daedra?

Cost-cutting?

Syldras

BretonMage wrote: »

The pronouns I know are a human convention, but it was just a thought, for our use. Of course, I don't expect any of the daedric princes to care about pronouns.

I think you are free to call the Daedric Princes however you like. Physical shape means nothing when it comes to gender as a social concept, after all, and it's not like you can ask them

For me it feels even more arbitrary, considering they are spirits that embody an idea. Which pronouns would you use for wrath, betrayal or madness?

In some languages, every word, including objects or immaterial concepts, has a grammatical gender, but they vary from language to language. There have been debates about whether the moon is a he or a she before, or the sun, or love, or truth. In the end, it's everyone's own choice.

BretonMage

Syldras wrote: »

I think you are free to call the Daedric Princes however you like. Physical shape means nothing when it comes to gender as a social concept, after all, and it's not like you can ask them

It seems we often attribute gender to shapes (or perhaps sounds), or we wouldn't call Azura or Meridia "she" and Malacath "he". It was just a thought in any case. Technically if they are all called daedric "princes", then they should all be called "he", to accord with the gendered term itself.

In some languages, every word, including objects or immaterial concepts, has a grammatical gender, but they vary from language to language. There have been debates about whether the moon is a he or a she before, or the sun, or love, or truth. In the end, it's everyone's own choice.

Well, in the case of French, for example, every object has a grammatical gender, and my language teacher assures me it's not a matter of personal choice