This Sanguine design is not good

Soarora · July 10

Syldras wrote: »

I do like the new statue, btw, for the same reason you stated: The depiction is appealing. Some people seem to forget that Sanguine is also a seducer. He couldn't lure anybody in if he was some ugly repulsive goblin (unless of course, he has planned to attract ugly goblins). It makes sense for him to appear in a way that the mortals he's preying on find interesting or charming. Whose invitation would the average person rather follow: Some stocky goblin/devil creature with barbaric looking clothes, an ugly face and a rather menacing facial expression? Or a tall, athletic dremora in ornate armor in a pose that still looks victorious and self-confident even while carrying a huge beer mug? And from his facial expression, he looks drunk, but it's still not a horribly repulsive goblin face.

This for sure. I never liked the old Sanguine because, yeah, it shows debauchery in alcohol and food but not so much his other aspects. As someone attracted to men, his new statue is very attractive-- perhaps the most attractive official depiction I've seen of him. The old version of him? Absolutely not, he would not convince me to sway from my path to indulge. Besides, who's to say he doesn't like to start drunken fights and get high off adrenaline-- he is EVERYTHING in excess.

Araneae6537 · July 10

@spartaxoxo I agree and it seems strange to me that ESO didn’t go with an image like one of those or one of the many that @Syldras showed. Holding a weapon, sure, but why a full suit of what appears to be Dagon-style heavy plate? And that face is so disturbing, like the muscles are showing alongside the eyes and smiling lips…

spartaxoxo · July 10

Soarora wrote: »

Besides, who's to say he doesn't like to start drunken fights and get high off adrenaline-- he is EVERYTHING in excess.

Drunken fights are very much his thing.

UESP wrote:

He enjoys playing pranks on others.[21] He is reputed for throwing the best parties in Oblivion and celebrates at the drop of a hat. One instance of these spontaneous celebrations is the 400th anniversary of Sanguine's dog learning to play "undead," which occurred sometime around 2E 182.[22] All manner of entertainment can be found at Sanguine's parties, such as stage plays, ***,[5][6] bardic concerts, dancing, skooma,[23] arena fights and, of course, refreshments. [24] Food and drink are usually present, but Malacath is not.[25][UOL 2]

spartaxoxo · July 10

Araneae6537 wrote: »

@spartaxoxo I agree and it seems strange to me that ESO didn’t go with an image like one of those or one of the many that @Syldras showed. Holding a weapon, sure, but why a full suit of what appears to be Dagon-style heavy plate? And that face is so disturbing, like the muscles are showing alongside the eyes and smiling lips…

Honestly, ESO probably should merge the two depictions. Give him back the clothes he's wearing in the older games but keep his fit body from Skyrim. IMO Sanguine would probably prefer to appear fit more often than not.

kaushad · July 11

Dragonnord wrote: »

It's a statue, and a statue is crafted by mortals, and mortals and artists can depict things the way they want.

It's a statue, not a real manifestation of Sanguine that, by the way, being a Daedric Prince, they can take ANY form and look they want.

Funny how it just so happens that those mortals wanted Sanguine to look like one of the four models of daedra from base TESV.

Now one daedric statue I rather like is this Boethiah:

Apart from the axe, this guy looks nothing like any depiction of Boethiah we've had so far, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong. The Imperial look invites questions about what sort of identity he has in Cyrodiil. Also, if Sanguine really wants a conventially attractive physique, he could try showing it in a toga instead of standard daedric armour.

Pelanora · July 11

Looks pretty buff to me, hedonism doesn't need to be portly.

Syldras · July 11

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And some ancient depictions of Dionysus and Bacchus also show him fit. So, it's not really just a modern idea that such figures can be fit.

This is a 17th century Baroque painting from Ciro Ferri, only slightly over 300 years old. Antiquity ended about 1200 years before that, so this isn't the best example.

Soarora wrote: »

As someone attracted to men, his new statue is very attractive-- perhaps the most attractive official depiction I've seen of him. The old version of him? Absolutely not, he would not convince me to sway from my path to indulge.

Completely agreed.

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Holding a weapon, sure, but why a full suit of what appears to be Dagon-style heavy plate?

Isn't that the "standard" Dremora look in ESO? I mean, Nerevar's projection in CWC wears standard old elven style...

That said, I actually like the heavy armor. Unlike Bacchus, who is a "beautiful young man (or even boy)" type in many depictions, Sanguine has extremely violent, brutal, even perverted aspects. The spiky daedric armor symbolizes that very well, in my opinion.

Araneae6537 wrote: »

And that face is so disturbing, like the muscles are showing alongside the eyes and smiling lips…

Reminds me of grotesques (there's another item where ZOS made use of exactly these in Gold Road, btw, in case you've noticed the slightly eerie fish statues you find at some places):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotesque
And for me, the exaggerated, almost mask-like factial features fit very well as a depiction of excess, ecstasy and even madness.

spartaxoxo · July 11

Syldras wrote: »

This is a 17th century Baroque painting from Ciro Ferri, only slightly over 300 years old. Antiquity ended about 1200 years before that, so this isn't the best example.

I was using the term to mean extremely old rather than a specific time period. It means both in English. But, this is very good reminder that I shouldn't do that when referencing old art/history because there is literally an Ancient time period. And it happened way longer than a few hundred years ago. Thanks for the correction.

Syldras · July 11

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I was using the term to mean extremely old rather than a specific time period. It means both in English. But, this is very good reminder that I shouldn't do that when referencing old art/history because there is literally an Ancient time period. And it happened way longer than a few hundred years ago. Thanks for the correction.

No problem. I also tend to forget about cultural differences. 300 years are probably "extremely old" from an US-American perspective. In my region, where people live in buildings of that age and the local village church is usually about 700 or 800 years old (and some towns still have a medieval city wall, or sometimes at least the old towers that outlived the removal of the rest of the wall), it's basically considered nothing. Let alone further South where ancient Roman buildings are still present today.

ArchangelIsraphel · July 11

Another thought I had- there is always a big difference in depictions between someone who actively worships a god, and someone who wants to discourage the type of behavior associated with a certain god. We see this happen historically- when a mythological figure falls out of favor with the current belief system, they are often re-imagined in grotesque ways to cast them in as poor a light as possible when compared other forms of belief.

As far as the ESO world is concerned: the statue we're seeing could be described as alluring, certainly something created by one who favors Sanguine, where as the other depictions seem to be created in a way which is deliberately unflattering. Could we be seeing the difference in depictions between someone who actively worships Sanguine, v.s. Someone who fears or even loathes Sanguine?

I really can't help but draw a correlation between this particular statue and various depictions of Lucifer in our own world throughout time- especially since the way the face has been sculpted reminds me very much of some of the statues which caused a great deal of religious outrage in the past. (I'd go dig them out, but I'm on my phone at the moment) Depending on the creator, we see Lucifer depicted as either alluring, or deliberately grotesque and disturbing, depending on who is creating the art. This statue seems to very deliberately draw on some of that old imagery. (As well as imagery of the seven deadly sins)

Whoever made it, it's very well done. I find it quite unsettling to look at exactly because it does capture an aspect of that "allure towards the forbidden". From a roleplay perspective, it immediately made my character feel guarded and uneasy. I think it's doing it's job, personally!

Araneae6537 · July 11

@Syldras if there is a standard dremora style I would have thought it more like the Dremora outfit style than the Annihilarch’s Chosen. But I could be wrong — or the sculptor could be, heh.

But those are some good points; I did not know that Sanguine was supposed to have those aspects, specifically, I hadn’t thought he had strongly violent aspects. So many other princes have that territory very well-covered, including the one I see bopping around Tamriel every day now…

Now I’m imagining when they create these Daedric princes there’s these checkboxes of, is your Daedric prince a) an edgelord, b) a hot chick, or c) both uwu

spartaxoxo · July 11

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I was using the term to mean extremely old rather than a specific time period. It means both in English. But, this is very good reminder that I shouldn't do that when referencing old art/history because there is literally an Ancient time period. And it happened way longer than a few hundred years ago. Thanks for the correction.

No problem. I also tend to forget about cultural differences. 300 years are probably "extremely old" from an US-American perspective. In my region, where people live in buildings of that age and the local village church is usually about 700 or 800 years old (and some towns still have a medieval city wall, or sometimes at least the old towers that outlived the removal of the rest of the wall), it's basically considered nothing. Let alone further South where ancient Roman buildings are still present today.

My entire country hasn't been around for 300 years, technically. The first people on this landmass came thousands of years ago. But the USA as this very specific country, has only been around since 1776. The oldest church in my area is less than 150 years old. I'm not saying every American would view 300 years as very old. Because there's plenty who wouldn't, maybe even most. But I also know a ton who do view it that way. We are probably shaped by our environment, as you say. It's the stuff of history books, cultural landmarks, and art classes rather than day to day life in my local area. Anyway, this post certainly gave me food for thought.

Syldras wrote: »

That said, I actually like the heavy armor. Unlike Bacchus, who is a "beautiful young man (or even boy)" type in many depictions, Sanguine has extremely violent, brutal, even perverted aspects. The spiky daedric armor symbolizes that very well, in my opinion.

Is there a particular quest you're thinking of? I know he has like some fighting associated with him, like all daedra, but he always seemed to me much less violent than others. More gladiator matches or drunken tavern fights rather than more extreme forms of violence (well, for Nirn that's fairly tame as violence levels go).

Syldras · July 11

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

From a roleplay perspective, it immediately made my character feel guarded and uneasy.

And my main found him quite charming immediately (although he's not the party/booze/*** type at all, just an ever curious person who feels strangely drawn to secrets). Not without a sense of caution, of course, as he has no interest in spending the next few centuries in a trap.

Then again, I also think this is a charming depiction

Syldras · July 11

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I did not know that Sanguine was supposed to have those aspects, specifically, I hadn’t thought he had strongly violent aspects. So many other princes have that territory very well-covered, including the one I see bopping around Tamriel every day now…

I mean, it's... a different kind of violent, if that makes any sense? It's not Dagon's "destroying the world" or "natural disaster" thing, not Molag Bal's dominance/torture or Boethia's backstabbing/betrayal thing either. It's basically moral corruption and perversion to the point that the spilling of blood, slaughter of people and defilement of corpses is seen as an art form, an entertaining pastime, or maybe even (how to put it, it's all horrible) an exciting show to satisfy sadistic desires. Thinking of what Ayleid Sanguine worshippers did.

ArchangelIsraphel · July 11

@Syldras I always thought the dynamic pose and the wings on that one were extremely well done. It's got -drama- XD

It's always interesting to see how different people's characters react to things like the Sanguine statue from an RP standpoint! My altmer Templar was highly displeased....My bosmer though...well, now that he knows there's a potential market, expect him to be selling cheap knock offs of the statue to tourists.

vsrs_au · July 11

This thread just reminded me of the Manor of Revelry in Coldharbour, which seems more like Sanguine's kind of place than Molag Bal's.

TaSheen · July 11

vsrs_au wrote: »

This thread just reminded me of the Manor of Revelry in Coldharbour, which seems more like Sanguine's kind of place than Molag Bal's.

I *think* Molag Bal just appropriates things.... I'm not sure he even knows (for the most part) what he's got.

Syldras · July 11

@ArchangelIsraphel

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

@Syldras I always thought the dynamic pose and the wings on that one were extremely well done. It's got -drama- XD

Yeah, right? I've even once seen a statuette of it on some website (not sure if it was from Veronese or a different manufacturer) - unfortunately it was sold out, otherwise it would certainly be cluttering one of my cabinets now

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

It's always interesting to see how different people's characters react to things like the Sanguine statue from an RP standpoint!

"Oh, Sanguine!" *circles statue and stares at it intently* "How handsome." *gazes down* "Nice roses, too. Unusually big. What weird subspecies is that even?" *contemplates the consequences of stealing one to bring it to his botanically inclined sister for identification for a few moments, then rejects the idea - too risky* "There's a flask. It's filled to at least a third. Maybe I could test this on my 'companion'..."

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

My bosmer though...well, now that he knows there's a potential market, expect him to be selling cheap knock offs of the statue to tourists.

I'd like to order one. Carved from either onyx or, even better, silver obsidian

OgrimTitan · July 11

kaushad wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

It's a statue, and a statue is crafted by mortals, and mortals and artists can depict things the way they want.

It's a statue, not a real manifestation of Sanguine that, by the way, being a Daedric Prince, they can take ANY form and look they want.

Funny how it just so happens that those mortals wanted Sanguine to look like one of the four models of daedra from base TESV.

Now one daedric statue I rather like is this Boethiah:

Apart from the axe, this guy looks nothing like any depiction of Boethiah we've had so far, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong. The Imperial look invites questions about what sort of identity he has in Cyrodiil. Also, if Sanguine really wants a conventially attractive physique, he could try showing it in a toga instead of standard daedric armour.

Boethiah's statues are the excellent example. This is what cultural representation means. This is what depicting national/cultural aspects means. We've got more "traditional" Boethiah in Dragonstar Arena. We've got Caligula on steroids in Cyrodiil, and we got asian cat-warlady in Elsweir. And they all fit the character, what's most important. In a perfect world, every Prince will have 5-10 aspects. In 1 country alone.

So yeah, if the statue of Sanguine was presented like a warrior aspect of colovians, I wouldn't mind, although, from worldbuilding point it would be boring and uninspired to have yet another Prince to be a warrior. All his violent qualities, attributed to him by some people here, are stretched a bit.
But this statue is not about any aspects. From the worldbuilding perspective, it's the first Sanguine statue in the game, intending to represent him in the most traditional form.

spartaxoxo · July 11

OgrimTitan wrote: »

From the worldbuilding perspective, it's the first Sanguine statue in the game, intending to represent him in the most traditional form.

Does the statue say it's supposed to be his most traditional form? I actually not too familiar with it.

OgrimTitan · July 11

spartaxoxo wrote: »

OgrimTitan wrote: »

From the worldbuilding perspective, it's the first Sanguine statue in the game, intending to represent him in the most traditional form.

Does the statue say it's supposed to be his most traditional form? I actually not too familiar with it.

Yes, of course. The description says: "This is a Cyrodiil statue of Sanguine, depicting them in the most traditional form." What do you think?

Once again: from a worldbuilding perspective, it looks like it. When you want to show something for a first time, you usually go with that.

spartaxoxo · July 11

OgrimTitan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

OgrimTitan wrote: »

From the worldbuilding perspective, it's the first Sanguine statue in the game, intending to represent him in the most traditional form.

Does the statue say it's supposed to be his most traditional form? I actually not too familiar with it.

Yes, of course. The description says: "This is a Cyrodiil statue of Sanguine, depicting them in the most traditional form." What do you think?

Once again: from a worldbuilding perspective, it looks like it. When you want to show something for a first time, you usually go with that.

It's not the first time we've seen Sanguine in-game or in-universe. And I'd frankly expect much of the stuff around now to be Gold Road themed than traditional depictions. It's a 10 year old game. Shiny new stuff after the latest chapter and nostalgic hooks are more what I'd expect rather than new world building creating some sort of traditional standard.

Syldras · July 11

OgrimTitan wrote: »

So yeah, if the statue of Sanguine was presented like a warrior aspect of colovians, I wouldn't mind, although, from worldbuilding point it would be boring and uninspired to have yet another Prince to be a warrior.

He is not a warrior in the traditional sense. Also, not everything about Colovians has to be related to war. Especially considering this shrine is standing amidst a wine region (which certainly is no coincidence).

OgrimTitan wrote: »

All his violent qualities, attributed to him by some people here, are stretched a bit.

Actually they're all proven by lore, be it lorebooks or dialogues.

OgrimTitan wrote: »

But this statue is not about any aspects. From the worldbuilding perspective, it's the first Sanguine statue in the game, intending to represent him in the most traditional form.

It's a depiction that blends different aspects of Sanguine through different attributes/symbols (like in real world iconography): the armor (fighting, arenas), the beer jug (drunkenness or generally intoxication), the exaggerated facial expression (excess until madness), the skulls (death) and the roses (seduction, carnal desires; the red colour could even be seen as a symbol for blood).

Syldras · July 11

OgrimTitan wrote: »

All his violent qualities, attributed to him by some people here, are stretched a bit.

To get into more detail about this: Even if we leave out the most horrendous aspects like torture as art or decorating places with fresh human remains - Sanguine isn't inviting you to his realm so you can have a nice time. He traps you, you're unable to leave, he lures people into alcoholism and drug addiction, he forces musicians to play until they collapse, he forces dancers to dance until they die from exhaustion. And this he does deliberately. It's not just that he enjoys the music and dance so much and accidentially demands too much from mortals, no, he wants them to be ruined by it, to collapse and die. A mortal's ruin is his kind of enjoyment. If this isn't sadism, I don't know what it is. I mean, we can argue now whether sadism is violence or not - but from my point of view, it definitively is. Violence is more than just having a fit of rage and punching someone's face with a fist.

GuuMoonRyoung · July 11

Why do you think he needs to be a fat ogre just because he is the god of hedonism, indulgence, excess and party? I think his design is perfect, it portrays the "nature of duality" prevalent in daedric princes.

Juomuuri · July 11

Been reading this thread and I'm disgusted by the fatphobia here - you really are calling the original design a "fat ugly ogre"? And saying no one is attracted to that? Lol ok, I find the original design very attractive, actually, and hate what they did to Sanguine in Skyrim. I was saddened when I saw that Skyrim-ified statue in Gold Road, I was hoping to see a revised version of the Oblivion statue. But nope, the devs are cowards.

Syldras · July 11

Juomuuri wrote: »

Been reading this thread and I'm disgusted by the fatphobia here - you really are calling the original design a "fat ugly ogre"?

Could you quote the posting you mean? Because people have described different attributes of the old statue (ogre- or goblin-like; portly/stocky/fat; rather agressive facial expression; ugly - which is always a personal subjective opinion, of course), but nowhere did I even see someone equating fat with ugly.

Juomuuri wrote: »

And saying no one is attracted to that?

Where did someone write that "no one" found that attractive? Of course everyone is free to find attractive what they want. This doesn't change that there are beauty standards (that vary widely through the different cultures and eras of mankind, btw) that appeal to the masses, though. If Sanguine wants to seduce as many mortals as possible, it makes sense for him to manifest as what is the current beauty standard for his intended victims. It makes sense that the Imperials, who have since long a strong military and fighting tradition (not only the legion, but also their arenas) and who value it highly as a part of their cultural identity, have developed the beauty ideal of "fit and muscular" - just like a high-ranked legion soldier or the current famous arena gladiator. If Sanguine wanted to appeal to Bosmer or Orcs instead, he might choose a different manifestation that makes more sense for these cultures.

Araneae6537 · July 11

Juomuuri wrote: »

Been reading this thread and I'm disgusted by the fatphobia here - you really are calling the original design a "fat ugly ogre"? And saying no one is attracted to that? Lol ok, I find the original design very attractive, actually, and hate what they did to Sanguine in Skyrim. I was saddened when I saw that Skyrim-ified statue in Gold Road, I was hoping to see a revised version of the Oblivion statue. But nope, the devs are cowards.

Did you read further than a few select posts? Some posters preferred the original depiction, which does look like a fat red goblin, honestly, some a later representation, while others would prefer something entirely different, more in line with the Greek depictions of Dionysus.

I personally would have preferred a look more different from the other Daedric princes, especially since this is the only depiction of Sanguine in game as far as I know, and so would have preferred an attractive male (whatever the species chosen to depict him as), more like a Greek or Roman depiction, since more overt violence in various forms as well as madness are emphasized aspects of other Daedric princes. Even the original depiction would be more different than how many of the princes usually present themselves.

But I have appreciated the discussion of how different aspects of the characteristics associated with Sanguine have been depicted across time and different cultures, as well as the posts expressing why many players appreciate this depiction. We all have different preferences and different interpretations of the same piece.

Lastly, I think your criticism of the devs most unfounded. I don’t believe it was unwillingness to depict a fat character that made them choose the design they did. I think it was adherence to the Skyrim depiction which makes sense in catering to the many players who came from that game (although I would prefer to see more differences going so far back in history and from the perspectives of different cultures — but I digress!)
There have been a number of depictions of heavier characters in ESO, including one of the antiquity statues as well as a number of NPCs throughout the game at least since High Isle.

(Edited for clarity.)

katanagirl1 · July 11

I am surprised no one has mentioned this, maybe it is just part of my own upbringing.

Here in the US, the Depression affected families a lot, even generations later. When my father was growing up, it was considered good for kids to be slightly chubby, it meant that the family had enough to eat.

Also, doesn’t classical art depict its subjects slightly chubby as it was in vogue during that time? The work Rubenesque comes to mind.

So it has not always been thought that being chubby is unattractive.

Syldras · July 11

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I am surprised no one has mentioned this, maybe it is just part of my own upbringing.
Here in the US, the Depression affected families a lot, even generations later. When my father was growing up, it was considered good for kids to be slightly chubby, it meant that the family had enough to eat.
Also, doesn’t classical art depict its subjects slightly chubby as it was in vogue during that time? The work Rubenesque comes to mind.
So it has not always been thought that being chubby is unattractive.

Yes, it does vary a lot. One thing that indeed often happens is that people prefer what's rare. So in times of scarcity, there is usually a tendency to find chubbier people attractive, because it's considered a symbol for good health and also wealth. If one looks through old newspapers here in Europe, from the time between the 1st and 2nd world war, there are no ads for weight loss products like today, but the opposite: Supplements for weight gain. Interestingly, they advertised them just the same way: "Use this nutricient for better health, a better mood, a more attractive look, people will love how well and and confident you'll look", etc.

Here are two examples I've found, both from the 1930's:

And yes, people on 16th/17th century Baroque paintings also look quite chubby (often while also being muscular, btw), although mostly not to the extent how they look in Ruben's paintings. That was his personal style.

And when it comes to ancient Greek and Roman depictions, one has to keep in mind that body shapes and sizes have a meaning. They have certain character traits attached to them, like a symbol.

There's the theory of the 4 temperaments or humours (or personality types): the choleric, the phlegmatic, the melancholic and the sanguinic (and that's also one aspect where Sanguine has his name from - although I think, "sanguine" also exists in the English language, both for a certain personality as well as for a colour? And then there's of course the word "sanguis" which means "blood" in Latin; or "sangue" in Italian and Portuguese, "sang" in French, or "sangre" in Spanish). It was also thought that the temperament of a person shows in their physique, or the other way round: the melancholic was supposed to look very thin and weak, even sickly; the phlegmatic very portly, although that didn't mean it was necessarily supposed to be a negative personality. One of the attributes was a certain lazyness, but other attributes were peacefulness, trustworthiness and a talent for diplomacy. Although those ideas also varied from philosopher to philosopher and changed repeatedly over time.