This Sanguine design is not good

OgrimTitan

We're talking of a location in 2024 chapter Gold Road, from West Weald zone. Why is a devil of indulgence, hedonism and excess is an athletic beefy dremora in a battle armour? Athletic body indicates discipline, self-restriction and willpower - quite the opposite things to their sphere. Why armour? Of all the 17 Princes he's probably the least warlike. All this just doesn't make sense to me.

Anticipating "bu-u-t.. he was a dremora in armor in Skyrim.." type of comments I can only say "AH! YES! It was in Skyrim! Now it all make sense. Because Skyrim is such a good example, right (sarcasm)?"

It's important to propose a solution when you critisize, so here is mine. This is a a depiction of the god in Daggerfall. Also a statue based on this look in Oblivion. Simple and effective. Cane is amazing, too. Not perfect, but at least it could be a right base for the modern design.


(pictures are taken from UESP and are not mine)

LunaFlora

you were on his UESP page?
it has more pictures including his Skyrim form:

that is definitely what the statue is based on.

edited to add:
yes Skyrim is a good example. it has his most recent daedric appearance.
in eso he has only appeared as a breton named Samuel Gourone before this statue:


and the statue uses the eso version of the dremora kynreeve outfit style which is nice.

Tazzy

I agree, he should look a little more worn out and bloated given his lavish lifestyle. But perhaps he threatened the sculptor to drown him in alcohol, if the final statue did not depict him as an athletic, handsome hero in armor. Maybe a kind of sculptural Photoshop.

LunaFlora

it is very likely he will look like this statue when he appears in-game in his daedric form

OgrimTitan

LunaFlora wrote: »

you were on his UESP page?
it has more pictures including his Skyrim form:

that is definitely what the statue is based on.

edited to add:
yes Skyrim is a good example. it has his most recent daedric appearance.
in eso he has only appeared as a breton named Samuel Gourone before this statue:


and the statue uses the eso version of the dremora kynreeve outfit style which is nice.

Yes, I'm aware of all that, as indicated in the opening post. I'm in bed with this universe for 18 years. Not the point. The point is, from the logic perspective, narrtive perspective and simple art-design perspective this is not a good design of a character. Why a demonic Dionysus looks like a dremora from your neighborhood? Why he's in the armour? Why it's the armour closely assosiated with lord Dagon's followers? Is it conformic and consistent, paying homage to Skyim's version? Yes. Is it good? Clear "no". Paying homage to something doesn't make it good. Especially if you are referencing a game like Skyrim, which itself is extremely controversial in it's quality.

BretonMage

Do daedric princes actually put on weight when they drink and eat to excess? I'm pretty sure he can look as buff or as fat as he wants to. Maybe he keeps buff to seduce mortals, who knows?

JiubLeRepenti

LunaFlora wrote: »

you were on his UESP page?
it has more pictures including his Skyrim form:

that is definitely what the statue is based on.

edited to add:
yes Skyrim is a good example. it has his most recent daedric appearance.
in eso he has only appeared as a breton named Samuel Gourone before this statue:


and the statue uses the eso version of the dremora kynreeve outfit style which is nice.

It simply shows how the Skyrim version of Sanguine wasn't relevant and accurate imo, as it doesn't match (at all) with the daedra's initial description.

And I'm not surprised tbh, ZOS has changed/modified/retconed sooooo much lore content since Skyrim... Just look at Vivec's "muatra"... It was just not 2017-friendly to admit he slapped Azura with... A very specific part of his body.

Dragonnord

It's a statue, and a statue is crafted by mortals, and mortals and artists can depict things the way they want.

It's a statue, not a real manifestation of Sanguine that, by the way, being a Daedric Prince, they can take ANY form and look they want.
 

master_vanargand

It's a very nice statue and I can't wait to get it.

OgrimTitan

Dragonnord wrote: »

It's a statue, and a statue is crafted by mortals, and mortals and artists can depict things the way they want.

It's a statue, not a real manifestation of Sanguine that, by the way, being a Daedric Prince, they can take ANY form and look they want.
 

That's the in-universe logic. TES is also a piece of art, purpously created by people to realise ideas and visions, and to not apply out-of-the-universe (creative) logic to it simply is very one-dimentional.

ApoAlaia

Sanguine is also the daedric prince of hedonism, and the cultivation of one's form can be considered a hedonistic pursuit.

Plus other, much 'darker' pursuits.

In my opinion TES writers tip-toe around Sanguine and what their sphere represents in the same way GW writers tip-toe around Slaanesh (and probably wish they could be unwritten) because their domains can go to some truly disturbing and harrowing places.

TaSheen

*shrug* I personally think there are a lot of other things to nitpick than what a sculptor in ESO's world decided to depict this particular Prince as. I started TES with Arena's release in 1994, and haven't ever left (was still playing Oblivion up to Skyrim's release, then both of them as I was also playing WoW and RIFT) - and the one thing I do know about ALL the in-game depictions (in any medium) of daedra, aedra, situations involving recurring NPCs, etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam is that these are all supposed to be the products of the "people of Tamriel" in each successive iteration of the world of Nirn, from those "common folk" perspectives.

There's a term for it (which because it's early and I had a HELL of a day yesterday, with heat ramping up already this morning) I can't now bring to mind.... @Syldras - little help here?

In any case, for each thing one individual finds "not fitting" there will be others who think just the opposite. I don't have any use personally for Sanguine, so I'm not really interested in what a statue of him looks like in game. The only statue I've seen in game that I thought was appropriate was that of Azura in the Cavern of Incarnates....

OgrimTitan

TaSheen wrote: »

*shrug* I personally think there are a lot of other things to nitpick than what a sculptor in ESO's world decided to depict this particular Prince as. I started TES with Arena's release in 1994, and haven't ever left (was still playing Oblivion up to Skyrim's release, then both of them as I was also playing WoW and RIFT) - and the one thing I do know about ALL the in-game depictions (in any medium) of daedra, aedra, situations involving recurring NPCs, etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam is that these are all supposed to be the products of the "people of Tamriel" in each successive iteration of the world of Nirn, from those "common folk" perspectives.

There's a term for it (which because it's early and I had a HELL of a day yesterday, with heat ramping up already this morning) I can't now bring to mind.... @Syldras - little help here?

In any case, for each thing one individual finds "not fitting" there will be others who think just the opposite. I don't have any use personally for Sanguine, so I'm not really interested in what a statue of him looks like in game. The only statue I've seen in game that I thought was appropriate was that of Azura in the Cavern of Incarnates....

Yeah? Well, I think the opposite. Million pointless discussions about the unncessary additions to the game and balance arguments are a bit trivial compared to stylistic and artistic choices, because they make the game what it is and how it stands out among other pieces of art. Especially considering an iconic recurring character everpresent in the universe.

The term you are looking for is an "unreliable narrator", or "canonisation of inconsistency", I believe.

And no, it's not "personal" for me either. Sanguine's character or sphere simply aren't my forte at all. It doesn't change that I care about the universe and the best possible depiction of any part of it. I don't want to return to the dark ages of Oblivion and Skyrim, but I suppose there is no point arguing about it since you particulary like those 2 games.

TaSheen

It's not that I "particularly like" them (though in some respects I do); I actually prefer Arena and Daggerfall - but they really don't work well for me: Arena is a tiny little box on my 4k screens, which with my ancient eyes I can hardly see (and nothing I've tried from online info about "making DOS box larger" has worked); Daggerfall is first person only, and I simply cannot play first person any more - my vertigo issue give me fits.

Just pointing out that for everyone who agrees with you, there are others who won't. Also, ZOS doesn't change things already in the game very often unless bugged....

Dragonnord

OgrimTitan wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

It's a statue, and a statue is crafted by mortals, and mortals and artists can depict things the way they want.

It's a statue, not a real manifestation of Sanguine that, by the way, being a Daedric Prince, they can take ANY form and look they want.
 

That's the in-universe logic. TES is also a piece of art, purpously created by people to realise ideas and visions, and to not apply out-of-the-universe (creative) logic to it simply is very one-dimentional.

Then your thread has no logic either.

Just take it as you want since whatever you think or I think, it doesn't mean the statue is wrong and has to be different.

Maybe it was "wrong" in Oblivion and before, then less "wrong" in Skyrim, and it's "right" how it is now in TESO.
 

OgrimTitan

TaSheen wrote: »

It's not that I "particularly like" them (though in some respects I do); I actually prefer Arena and Daggerfall - but they really don't work well for me: Arena is a tiny little box on my 4k screens, which with my ancient eyes I can hardly see (and nothing I've tried from online info about "making DOS box larger" has worked); Daggerfall is first person only, and I simply cannot play first person any more - my vertigo issue give me fits.

Just pointing out that for everyone who agrees with you, there are others who won't. Also, ZOS doesn't change things already in the game very often unless bugged....

Yes, Daggerfall is a unique game, I may even say I'm in love with it.

I'm well aware there will be people who disagree with me, not have I any illusion the statue will be changed. I don't believe I was asking to change the current thing or forcing people to join my opinion. It's all about perceptions and tastes. And from my taste and my perception of the universe, this design is bad, and I can prove that from my point of view. Whatever people, players or developers, would do with it, I have no more influence on.

Bo0137

I like the modern version better

belial5221_ESO

Maybe the statue is cause the game takes place way before he started getting too unhealthy,lol.It does take place a while before even Arena.

OgrimTitan

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Sanguine is also the daedric prince of hedonism, and the cultivation of one's form can be considered a hedonistic pursuit.

Plus other, much 'darker' pursuits.

In my opinion TES writers tip-toe around Sanguine and what their sphere represents in the same way GW writers tip-toe around Slaanesh (and probably wish they could be unwritten) because their domains can go to some truly disturbing and harrowing places.

Funny thing, I wanted to mention Slaanesh in the opening post in the way "Why Sanguine is suddenly a beefy boi all-armored up? Did he start to lift trying to impress his perfect gender-bender match from Warhammer, Slaanesh?"

Slaanesh, though, is developed WAY MORE than Sanguine as of 2024. They have their iconic "lesser daedra", both in Fantasy Battles and 40 000, champions, corrupted tech, cultists and all. Their inflience was shown very vivdly on Fulgrim character and in some other events in other books.

Sanguine barely has 10% of that in terms of overall developement, and, sadly, I can't see ESO going into dark perversions themes for him to be fleshed out. They didn't touch "that" part of Molag Bal, after all. Would be glad to be surprised in the future, though.

Syldras

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

Just look at Vivec's "muatra"... It was just not 2017-friendly to admit he slapped Azura with... A very specific part of his body.

There are earlier depictions of muatra as a "normal" spear, for example in TES3 concept art, or the famous "foul murder" drawing where Muatra is used to kill Nerevar.

Also, the Lessons Of Vivec are highly symbolic. I always cringe a bit when people take the text literally, to be honest, especially the part about Vivec's conception and birth. Have they never read any myths before, especially creation myths?

And at last, if at all, it's not part of Vivec's body, but a sewered part of Molag Bal's body, from how it is narrated in the Lessons of Vivec.

And when it comes to Sanguine or generally depictions of Daedric Princes in statues or other artworks: These depend entirely on the creator. Daedric Princes have no "true form", their looks depend entirely on how they choose to be seen. Depictions made by mortals vary and are influenced by their own culture, for example, a statue of Azuza looks different whether it's made by Bretons or by Dunmer. If there was one "mainstream" teaching, one could say different cultures of Tamriel have their different own folklore or folk religion/beliefs, when it comes to the Daedric Princes, let alone different cultural art styles.

Sanguine also isn't just the "eating, drinking, merriness" cliché that he's often reduced to. His revelries also include arena fights (so there is a fighting aspect that may explain armor as part of his depiction) and unrestricted violence. For the Khajiit, he's a deity of blood, death and murder (and while that isn't shown that much in Imperial traditions, it's not impossible that this is also part of them, just not the main focus). Also: Ayleid "flesh-sculpting", "gut-gardening" and "art-torture". For the Ayleids, one of his many names what "Blood-Made-Pleasure". Considering that Ayleids lived in the West Weald, Colovian depictions of Sanguine could also be slightly influenced by their traditions.

So, yes, I see that the newest depiction is a nod to Skyrim, probably because Skyrim is the game most players here have played before (the younger ones may have never played Oblivion, let alone Daggerfall) and having a recognition value absolutely makes sense. But no, it's not wrong. It's not even wrong if the location in TES4 is identical, because within many centuries, the old shrine (as seen in ESO) might have been destroyed, even more than once, and then replaced by a new statue, which can look different, not only because art styles have changed, but maybe also because the way people perceived Sanguine did. Maybe there was a cultural/folkloristic shift between ESO and TES4, with the violent aspects decreasing and the view shifting more towards aspects like gluttony and drunkenness (although the statue still includes a skull in the TES4 depiction). I think this is very much possible as it's also known from the real world.

Soarora

He is indulgence in all forms, maybe he likes working out too much. Maybe the armor works like a corset. Maybe he’s just a Daedric Prince and doesn’t gain weight like we do and the goal was just for him to be attractive. I do dislike that he tends to be Regular Dremora, I saw an artist who had an interpretation more like a Satyr which I like. I headcanon he’s both muscular and chubby, muscular for the indulgence of attraction and chubby for the indulgence of food and alcohol. Like a buff dad bod.

Araneae6537

The statue struck me as very strange as well, not at all suggestive of hedonism, and not that I think corpulence is the best or only way to depict that. Wearing armor is also an odd choice in depiction; I would have expected flowing robes more like Nocturnal. Finally, it looks to me like his face has no skin.

ercknn

I agree, he should have more of a portrayal in relation to Dionysus.
Hedonism, debauchery, and revelry would make me think of a daedric prince with long curly locks, half naked, possibly fat/glutton, with *** monger tendencies. Depicting other daedra bow or codling at his feet as he stands proud with the sanguine rose in hand. Maybe thorns and roses surrounding the depiction as well to represent the two sided nature most princes have.

Instead we get a dull knight like image.

I thought of this in like a minute after reading the first post. I know my opinion is subjective but small things like this in ESO could be given more attention to and have much better results than this.

tsaescishoeshiner

I like the new statue—it brings an infectious charming party-boy attitude to Sanguine. It's consistent with an aim to lure people into debauchery by making a fun-looking guy, especially with the pose and expression.

I like the old design—it's different, but it's also a bit less creative by just being a little devil guy. I'd love to see that as an actual character model for a change, especially if they gender-swapped it, since the Princes are meant to appear as different genders sometimes. Goblin Sanguine when?

The new statue is also an upcoming Crown Store item, so it makes sense that it would look cool. The Oblivion one is a bit scrungy.

Sanguine can also be plenty warlike, if you consider Sangiin the same, and remember that his Moongrave cult was trying to take the Ruby Throne. His personality and sphere go beyond debauchery, and the Princes don't represent their ideals—mortals assume their ideals based on their personalities.

(Meanwhile I'm waiting to see Sanguine as a black-and-red baritone Alfiq who persuades mortals to visit the party realm. Or a grandma who invites everyone over for bottomless tea and neverending table games.)

Syldras

ercknn wrote: »

I agree, he should have more of a portrayal in relation to Dionysus.
Hedonism, debauchery, and revelry would make me think of a daedric prince with long curly locks, half naked, possibly fat/glutton, with *** monger tendencies.

Dionysus/Bacchus is an interesting example.

From your description, you probably think of depictions like this one:



While antique depictions of him usually look more like this:







Or even this one without any alcohol reference, where he carries a spear:



(Sorry for having to crop all pictures at the waist, btw. The overall pictures would be much more interesting because you see the whole physical shape, posture, and sometimes attributes placed at lower parts of the statue, like items on the ground, but - oh, well).

The "fat old man Bacchus" is a more recent thing. There was a shift to that image within the last few hundred years. It even goes so far that statues of old fat men with grapes are now misattributed as depictions of Bacchus because of that, like this one from the Vatican Museums, which is actually a statue of Silenus:

TheNuminous1

Syldras wrote: »

ercknn wrote: »

I agree, he should have more of a portrayal in relation to Dionysus.
Hedonism, debauchery, and revelry would make me think of a daedric prince with long curly locks, half naked, possibly fat/glutton, with *** monger tendencies.

Dionysus/Bacchus is an interesting example.

From your description, you probably think of depictions like this one:



While antique depictions of him usually look more like this:







Or even this one without any alcohol reference, where he carries a spear:



(Sorry for having to crop all pictures at the waist, btw. The overall pictures would be much more interesting because you see the whole physical shape, posture, and sometimes attributes placed at lower parts of the statue, like items on the ground, but - oh, well).

The "fat old man Bacchus" is a more recent thing. There was a shift to that image within the last few hundred years. It even goes so far that statues of old fat men with grapes are now misattributed as depictions of Bacchus because of that, like this one from the Vatican Museums, which is actually a statue of Silenus:

I love intelligent debate 😭😭😭

OgrimTitan

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Sanguine can also be plenty warlike, if you consider Sangiin the same, and remember that his Moongrave cult was trying to take the Ruby Throne. His personality and sphere go beyond debauchery, and the Princes don't represent their ideals—mortals assume their ideals based on their personalities.

On the contrary, Princes don't just represent their ideas. They ARE ideas. The Monomyth, Fa-Nuit-Hen Loremaster's Archive 2, Mehrunes Dagon's own admission in a book A Visiion of Twin Citadels. List goes on.

As for the other thoughts - I consider the aspects of the gods semi-separate entities, and I hope eventually to see them, when ESO will be done with presenting all the standart versions of the Princes. So I totally understand warlike Sangiin, but I don't want to see a warlike Sanguine.

Sturmfaenger

My Explanation:

Every daedric prince has a daedric artifact. Sanguines Rose is a staff he gives to his champions. The staff summons a dremora. That we learn in Skyrim.
In Skyrim, this dremora is used by Sanguine to communicate with the dragonborn, he's possessing it for the duration of the dialogue. (When the Dragonborn is gifted the staff, it is not fully loaded because Sanguine has summoned the Dremora once to talk to the Dragonborn).
If Sanguine did a similar thing in the West Weald, his cultists or champion have met him through the Dremora. So they picture him like that. Or honor that meeting.

Other believers may meet him in other shapes, or just hear his voice and picture him otherwise.

Problem solved.

Syldras

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

the Princes don't represent their ideals—mortals assume their ideals based on their personalities.

I agree with your post, except for this bit. The Daedric Princes can indeed be seen as personifications of concepts. They are a representation of certain traits and can't really change.

It is true though, that the depictions we see (statues, tapestries, etc) are made by mortals, so they differ by the idea the mortal culture who created them had of the Daedric Princes, which does vary a lot.

I do like the new statue, btw, for the same reason you stated: The depiction is appealing. Some people seem to forget that Sanguine is also a seducer. He couldn't lure anybody in if he was some ugly repulsive goblin (unless of course, he has planned to attract ugly goblins). It makes sense for him to appear in a way that the mortals he's preying on find interesting or charming. Whose invitation would the average person rather follow: Some stocky goblin/devil creature with barbaric looking clothes, an ugly face and a rather menacing facial expression? Or a tall, athletic dremora in ornate armor in a pose that still looks victorious and self-confident even while carrying a huge beer mug? And from his facial expression, he looks drunk, but it's still not a horribly repulsive goblin face.

spartaxoxo

I feel the modern imagination of excessive drunken parties immediately brings to mind fit frat boys.



And some ancient depictions of Dionysus and Bacchus also show him fit. So, it's not really just a modern idea that such figures can be fit.







I don't think fat and repulsive is necessary to his artistic concept. And in some ways, it clashes with it. He's supposed to be a master of seduction. And when you think of that, you immediately think of images of more traditional/stereotypical beauty, such as fit figures.

ArchangelIsraphel

The discussion regarding Bacchus is an excellent representation of how depictions of mythological figures transform over time, sometimes differing radically from their original form. War, shifts in religious practices, and the melding of one religion with another within a region can cause such changes. In the real world, there are instances where the religion of a conquering nation was adopted by the locals, however they hid their original gods within the iconography of their conquerors, resulting in mythological figures which depict a blend of more than one deity.

Many well-known mythological figures are far different from what you would think in their original forms- especially when it comes to the Greek and Roman pantheon (Don't even get me started on Cupid/Eros! XD), but also when it comes to other types of religious iconography.

If only the constraints of the forum would allow me to go deeper into that interesting discussion, but I digress. It is a hobby of mine to chase these mythologies down, and I enjoy collecting various depictions of gods, angels, and other such things in their various forms across time. (reproductions, of course, but the research behind the different depictions can be a fascinating deep dive.)

With all that being said, I want to reinforce the idea that Tamriel is a world which is constantly shifting and changing due to the ever churning tides of war, conflicting belief systems, and the literal presence of the very daedra some cultures worship. It isn't far fetched at all to imagine that depictions of these beings shift over time- or that more than one depiction can exist at once, as happens in our own world even today with imagery of saints and angels.

(There are so many parallels between ESO's lore and various other myths and religions, I could go on for years, but I don't think the rules of the forum would allow me to go as deeply into that conversation as I'd like >.>;)