Thoughts on Necromancer class changes in U43?

Faulgor

My thoughts are: My Necro healer wished not all of the buffs were on DD skills.

Mystic Siphon might be worthwhile to backbar in some instances, at least it's only one slot over 2x Inner Light.

But I don't see much of a benefit using Skeletal Mage over Degeneration.

SalamanNZ

I can't wait to try out some ideas I have. On paper I am very pleased.

i_azazei_i

Pve player: very good. But still needs more summons to feel like a necromancer proper. I think making the BB morph of ressurection should be changed to suit it more. Example

Undead army:
Reduces cost, instead of bringing players to life, target up to 4 corpses to bring back from the dead as either mages, archers, or swordsmen for 25 seconds to aid in battle.

Afterip

Even with this "buffs" nerco will be still most weakest class. But im glad that ZOS team started doing something to fix it.
I wish they change some of grave lords passive skill because they are so trash.
1p. not increased damage.
2p. just give you a higher chance to crit someone at 25%hp or lower.(i think it would be bette if it will be 5% crit per ability at 50% hp or lower)
3p. 1500 penetrations so low. its like 2.2% armour ignore or 2.2% damage increase. (why not increase it to 2.5k-3k pen?)
4p. 10% dot increase for class wich dont have any dot skill. (passive should be like: if you consuming corpse you will get ~5-8% dmg increase to all your dmg for 5 sec or something.)

Right now necro dont have any passive that significantly increase his damage.

StarOfElyon

Faulgor wrote: »

My thoughts are: My Necro healer wished not all of the buffs were on DD skills.

Oof. Good point.

Remathilis

Faulgor wrote: »

My thoughts are: My Necro healer wished not all of the buffs were on DD skills.

Mystic Siphon might be worthwhile to backbar in some instances, at least it's only one slot over 2x Inner Light.

But I don't see much of a benefit using Skeletal Mage over Degeneration.

I run totem, mender and boneyard on my healer (who double duties as a weak DPS) so those changes are great. But much of this if geared to pve DPS.

Our team ECcro is weeping tears of joy, for what that is worth.

ghost_bg_ESO

my thoughts - can slot back boneyard instead of caltrops.

Lazarus_Rising

I am glad, these are game changer for necro even if they may not be on par with other classes. With the new class set i feel there are a lot of builds to create and try out. Fresh air through my skeletal torso.

I am concerned about the corpse generation out of combat which will be gone now. From reading it does not sound like a big problem but my gut tells me otherwise.

LukosCreyden

Very good.
Very, very good!

Now GIVE BACK STALKING BLASTBONES.

OsUfi

Faulgor wrote: »

My thoughts are: My Necro healer wished not all of the buffs were on DD skills.

Mystic Siphon might be worthwhile to backbar in some instances, at least it's only one slot over 2x Inner Light.

But I don't see much of a benefit using Skeletal Mage over Degeneration.

Intensive Mender is about to become the default healer summon now. You have a buff too, and as a fellow necro healer, I think it's a chuffing good one.

CameraBeardThePirate

OsUfi wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

My thoughts are: My Necro healer wished not all of the buffs were on DD skills.

Mystic Siphon might be worthwhile to backbar in some instances, at least it's only one slot over 2x Inner Light.

But I don't see much of a benefit using Skeletal Mage over Degeneration.

Intensive Mender is about to become the default healer summon now. You have a buff too, and as a fellow necro healer, I think it's a chuffing good one.

The Intensive Mender buff is a crazy buff, for all environments.

For context, Intensive would already heal your BG team for about 300k over the course of a "sweaty" match if your team sticks together. Post-buff, Intensive will be putting in almost 1 million healing over the course of a sweaty BG match. That's crazy strong.

Tinkerhorn

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The Intensive Mender buff is a crazy buff, for all environments.

For context, Intensive would already heal your BG team for about 300k over the course of a "sweaty" match if your team sticks together. Post-buff, Intensive will be putting in almost 1 million healing over the course of a sweaty BG match. That's crazy strong.

Yeah I'm somewhat regrettably inclined to say it's getting over buffed and should be brought back a little. Healing +2 is just too much and begging for a nerf at a later date which I fear would make it worse than the current iteration of Intensive Mender. Healing just a +1 is ample enough.

xDeusEJRx

Faulgor wrote: »

My thoughts are: My Necro healer wished not all of the buffs were on DD skills.

Mystic Siphon might be worthwhile to backbar in some instances, at least it's only one slot over 2x Inner Light.

But I don't see much of a benefit using Skeletal Mage over Degeneration.

I would like skeletal mage to be a better degen but I don't think Zos wants to do that because they dont want to create just a direct upgrade of Degeneration otherwise no one would use the skill

CameraBeardThePirate

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

My thoughts are: My Necro healer wished not all of the buffs were on DD skills.

Mystic Siphon might be worthwhile to backbar in some instances, at least it's only one slot over 2x Inner Light.

But I don't see much of a benefit using Skeletal Mage over Degeneration.

I would like skeletal mage to be a better degen but I don't think Zos wants to do that because they dont want to create just a direct upgrade of Degeneration otherwise no one would use the skill

They need to get over that. Class skills should always be better than non-class alternatives.

Stafford197

Well it’s a mixed bag. Necros are now mostly more effective, but not any more fun. In fact class fantasy takes a hit and there’s still no Stalking Blastbones lol.

But anyway:
1. The Major buffs. Necro gained new buffs but in random ways. Bone Armor is perfect because it covers you in bone to defend you, so you gain buffs for resistances. But stuff like Major Sorc/Proph simply “happen” when you use their abilities. Not a big deal but it is lazy design and a missed opportunity for very cool class-fantasy ideas.
2. You can no longer create corpses out of combat. This is an Ult Gen nerf and also is the removal of prepping the battlefields prior to a fight. Some players enjoy setting traps in games - for example, a player could create Corpses prior to a fight and then pull enemies toward them to activate Corpsebuster. Well now you can’t do this at all, and Corpsebuster can only proc on one corpse per ability cast anyway. Goodbye to a whole potential form of Necromancer-fantasy playstyle via corpse explosions.
3. Still no way to simply raise a small army from the dead bodies of your enemies like in every other game with Necromancers.
4. Major Cowardice for Necro is a direct competition to NB who also has it. This is the flaw with using these named buffs/debuffs everywhere. NB is already barely useful in a group comp, and now you indirectly have less reason to bring them.

So yes it’s mostly a Necro buff next patch (besides the Ult Gen nerf). IMO they need to rework some useless morphs to provide totally new functionality…. Like raising up to X amount of dead bodies to fight for you through a morph of Grave Grasp.

StarOfElyon

Stafford197 wrote: »

Well it’s a mixed bag. Necros are now mostly more effective, but not any more fun. In fact class fantasy takes a hit and there’s still no Stalking Blastbones lol.

...
2. You can no longer create corpses out of combat. ...

I missed that in the patch notes. That TERRIBLE!!!

That means that I can no longer keep my Mortal Coil going while I'm standing on a flag on guarding a relic. That means that if a nightblade tries to gank me, I won't have a heal over time going to help me survive it. That's a NERF!!!!!!! Please tell me they didn't do that to me.

Why do they feel the need to take away from Necros. Why are they so stingy with necros but so generous to night blades???

Stafford197

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Well it’s a mixed bag. Necros are now mostly more effective, but not any more fun. In fact class fantasy takes a hit and there’s still no Stalking Blastbones lol.

...
2. You can no longer create corpses out of combat. ...

I missed that in the patch notes. That TERRIBLE!!!

That means that I can no longer keep my Mortal Coil going while I'm standing on a flag on guarding a relic. That means that if a nightblade tries to gank me, I won't have a heal over time going to help me survive it. That's a NERF!!!!!!! Please tell me they didn't do that to me.

Yup unfortunately that’s how it works. I swear they must have an “anti-fun” policy in this game.

Might be ok if you’re playing BGs though since the in-combat bug is usually in effect there.

StarOfElyon

Stafford197 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Well it’s a mixed bag. Necros are now mostly more effective, but not any more fun. In fact class fantasy takes a hit and there’s still no Stalking Blastbones lol.

...
2. You can no longer create corpses out of combat. ...

I missed that in the patch notes. That TERRIBLE!!!

That means that I can no longer keep my Mortal Coil going while I'm standing on a flag on guarding a relic. That means that if a nightblade tries to gank me, I won't have a heal over time going to help me survive it. That's a NERF!!!!!!! Please tell me they didn't do that to me.

Yup unfortunately that’s how it works. I swear they must have an “anti-fun” policy in this game.

Might be ok if you’re playing BGs though since the in-combat bug is usually in effect there.

There are plenty of times when I'm just waiting for someone to come, not in combat, and I'm just keeping my buffs up. If I have to react to a gank by trying to get my HOTs going, I'm not going to make it. I need to have my buffs up already. This is PVP 101!!!

i11ionward

Firstmep wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The change to Siphon makes Nobility in Decay REALLY appealing, which is great. Minor Resolve on Armor is also a great change, as it means we don't need to slot Resolving Vigor anymore. Both changes help quite a bit with bar space.

Sorcery on Archer/Arcanist is so-so. It's nice to have a source in the class kit, and the ability is still mediocre, but I'll take it because the only other universal source is Entropy which is also a bit mediocre. I'll take the extra corpse gen and better Dismember uptime over a tad more DoT damage any day with how strong Deaden Pain is at the moment.

The Grave Grasp change is cool, although I would've preferred they rework the Empowering Grasp morph, as that buff is hot garbage. It literally never hits your pets, and isn't all that impactful when it does. It'll be fun to try out the damage morph nonetheless.

The Intensive Mender buff is something we knew was coming, although it's still a bit wild to me as it was already the stronger morph. The cross heals will be incredibly strong on it now, and the self healing will be more reliable, as even when the ghost targets a teammate, you'll still get the heal if you're close to them.

Totem change is cool for PvE tanks, tho likely not that useful for PvP.

Graveyard is a nice buff, and depending on how well Corpseburster scales, Avid bombing could make a return.

All in all, good changes. Biggest problem I have with the notes is that GLS is still hot garbage, tho being able to cast it outside of combat is nice.

If tether skills had 7m range instead of 5, they would be used more, especially siphon.

After changing the melee attack range from 5m to 7m, the radius of many skills such as Blade Cloak, Siphon, Lightning Form, etc should also be changed to 7m. Somewhere on the forum there was a topic with a list of skills that work around the character, the author suggested as well to raise the radius of skillam to 7m, if someone can find it please up.

ClevererHail6

The corpse generation outside of combat was just fine. They just needed to make it so it doesn’t generate ultimate outside of combat. Which is what I thought the change was, but I guess not.

Edit: consuming corpses do more than just generate ultimate for some skills.

Urzigurumash

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

My thoughts are: My Necro healer wished not all of the buffs were on DD skills.

Mystic Siphon might be worthwhile to backbar in some instances, at least it's only one slot over 2x Inner Light.

But I don't see much of a benefit using Skeletal Mage over Degeneration.

I would like skeletal mage to be a better degen but I don't think Zos wants to do that because they dont want to create just a direct upgrade of Degeneration otherwise no one would use the skill

They need to get over that. Class skills should always be better than non-class alternatives.

To me this leads to the "weapons are just decorations" claim made by another in another thread.

I strongly disagree with it, too easily leads to One Spec per Class, All Classes use Duel Wield for Max Tooltips on mostly Magicka-sourced Class Abilities, etc.

necro_the_crafter

Nice changes for PvE, dosnt change anything about PvP sadly.

I would like devs to adress inconsistancies of necro's kit, and clunkiness of corpse mech especially after changes to corpse mech only avaliable during combat, which comes wqith its own bugs...

Bug in question is that game tracks only if corpse generating ability was casted during combat, it isnt checks if corpse was created during combat. For example if you cast blight bones out of combat and then engage in combat - you cant use the corpse created by BB, although game lights is up as usable.

Corpsebuster is great in pve but due to positional desync unusable in pvp, 5m radius most of the time is barely not enough to hit moving target, and as we all know moving target is a greatest enemy of necro. The class as whole can be countered in pvp by smashing shift button and simply run.

I guess best direction i would like to see its to simplify the class, its seems like class complex only for the sake of complexity, there is no reward for learning necro, only dissapointment most of the time. The more you play the class the more frustration you feel with how underwhelming it is.

As what I would like to see is:

- Self corpse on a bone armor (Nobility corpse removed and instead buffed death favor to 16-20%).

- Targeted unblockable cc that makes enemy a usable corpse, for example - targeted debuff (maybe with a DoT?) that upon cast make enemy targetable for corpse consuming spell and upon cosuming that corpse applying fear to the target.

- Fear on the first hit of Colossus.

- Clown form made less clown. Vampire lord is still better.

- Stackable avid synergy damage based on how much corpses you recently consumed (Avid boneyard - while slotted for each corpse consumed gain boneyard stack up to 5, each stack grants you a 10% damage buff to youe next avid synergy and also increases w/spd by 40.)

- Increased projectile speed of a skull. Even if you find a stun for pvp you are not guaranteed to hit the skull, cuz even a point blank throw can be cc broken out of any stun you used(tryed with dawnbreaker, off-balance, FG fear, reverb bash) and dodged.

- Gravegrasp rework to follow a player around istead of going from the point it was casted at.
-
1st circle slow, 2nd circle immobilize, 3rd stun - the twist is: !CIRCLES FOLLOW A CASTER! and not travel from the point it was casted at. (this single change will actually make necro playable in pvp 100%)

thats it for now ill be back with more fun ideas during next pts. Thanks for Buffs again, now i atleast can run sustain pots in pve, and dont run out of my off resourse midfight.

And yea GLS is still a nonsense to use.

TechMaybeHic

In PvP, the numbers don't lie. Necro has been greatly improved. I have now seen 4 Necros in Cyrodiil. The numbers have DOUBLED!

FoJul

Fix mag blastbones. They still not compensating enough for me to comply with the mag BB change.

Navaac223

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Nice changes for PvE, dosnt change anything about PvP sadly.

I would like devs to adress inconsistancies of necro's kit, and clunkiness of corpse mech especially after changes to corpse mech only avaliable during combat, which comes wqith its own bugs...

Bug in question is that game tracks only if corpse generating ability was casted during combat, it isnt checks if corpse was created during combat. For example if you cast blight bones out of combat and then engage in combat - you cant use the corpse created by BB, although game lights is up as usable.

Corpsebuster is great in pve but due to positional desync unusable in pvp, 5m radius most of the time is barely not enough to hit moving target, and as we all know moving target is a greatest enemy of necro. The class as whole can be countered in pvp by smashing shift button and simply run.

I guess best direction i would like to see its to simplify the class, its seems like class complex only for the sake of complexity, there is no reward for learning necro, only dissapointment most of the time. The more you play the class the more frustration you feel with how underwhelming it is.

As what I would like to see is:

- Self corpse on a bone armor (Nobility corpse removed and instead buffed death favor to 16-20%).

- Targeted unblockable cc that makes enemy a usable corpse, for example - targeted debuff (maybe with a DoT?) that upon cast make enemy targetable for corpse consuming spell and upon cosuming that corpse applying fear to the target.

- Fear on the first hit of Colossus.

- Clown form made less clown. Vampire lord is still better.

- Stackable avid synergy damage based on how much corpses you recently consumed (Avid boneyard - while slotted for each corpse consumed gain boneyard stack up to 5, each stack grants you a 10% damage buff to youe next avid synergy and also increases w/spd by 40.)

- Increased projectile speed of a skull. Even if you find a stun for pvp you are not guaranteed to hit the skull, cuz even a point blank throw can be cc broken out of any stun you used(tryed with dawnbreaker, off-balance, FG fear, reverb bash) and dodged.

- Gravegrasp rework to follow a player around istead of going from the point it was casted at.
-
1st circle slow, 2nd circle immobilize, 3rd stun - the twist is: !CIRCLES FOLLOW A CASTER! and not travel from the point it was casted at. (this single change will actually make necro playable in pvp 100%)

thats it for now ill be back with more fun ideas during next pts. Thanks for Buffs again, now i atleast can run sustain pots in pve, and dont run out of my off resourse midfight.

And yea GLS is still a nonsense to use.

Everything said here is just perfect. If zos would only do the easy to implement changes suggested like fear on colossus, necro would already be way better. The only thing I would add is maybe minor prot instead of minor resolve on bone armor. No one will take off resolving vigor as it's the single strongest HoT in the game.

Even for pve tanks, you can easily get past the resistance cap without minor resolve AND you will get it from blessing of protection.

Urvoth

If they refuse to change Sac bones back to Stalking, they should at least make it an insta-buff and get rid of the dumb delay and possibility to lose your buff to los, cc, etc. No other buff skill in the game is delayed and inconsistent like that and it's far clunkier than Stalking ever was. We also need more damage sources built into Sac bones since Stalking hard carried our damage kit before. Using Sac bones should also make your light attacks apply a 3s dot or something similar to burning but unique and stronger, plus also should make your skulls undodgable. Skulls are slow and clunky enough as is, so forcing us to use them with Sac bones shouldn't be such a painful experience.

LukosCreyden

They need to do something about Sacrificial Bones.
They won't, because they never like to fix poorly thought-out reworks, but they need to.

necro_the_crafter

Biggest necro issue is - no matter what build you are running, you can simply copy it on any other class, and it will work better.

For me its really highlights that necro has no class uniqe playstyle.

No matter the patch, you can play a magsorc, that streaks and times crystal frags on to curse proc, or a Nigtblade that fires his bow after sucssesful incap stun, or dk that whips out his whip after landing on top of you from above. For most classes meta is means to the ways you getting stats for your damage, amount of tankiness, sourses of sustain.

But necros are different.

From their introduction to the game - stamcros were OP, but only because they were riding stamina meta train.
Magcros were good only before harmony removal.
They were built to fit one specific meta (idk intetionaly or not) and then, when this meta was no more, they fell of to the bottom tier and never came back. Its because necros aspects where tied outside its class kit. All of their power was in the rare Major Buffs they had easy acsess to(major vuln, major protection, uniqe mitigation), and which got heavily nerfed, or to one specific jewelry trait, that got removed.

Everething that was left after hybridization changes about necro was the stalking blastbones, that single ability allowed necros to be at least walmart wardens in pvp. Now with that out of the game I guess we are wardens from aliexpress.

Butl, now necro have thier attention, with the latest improvements lets hope they wont call it, and will countinue to look deeper into why that class underpreformes in PvP and what needs to be done to improve our expirience of playing this notoriously bad class.

Also Expunge is really damn bad, like why would you use over renewing undead, the skill that is one position lower on the skill tree. Purge 3 debuffs while also grant instat AoE heal + HoT vs Spend 2k hp to remove 4 debuffs. Just sayin.

CameraBeardThePirate

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Also Expunge is really damn bad, like why would you use over renewing undead, the skill that is one position lower on the skill tree. Purge 3 debuffs while also grant instat AoE heal + HoT vs Spend 2k hp to remove 4 debuffs. Just sayin.

Lol what? Hexproof is the best purge in the game. 1600 health to remove 4 effects is ludicrously good. You're going to take that much damage from 4 dots ticking anyways if you leave them on, so the cost is essentially free.

necro_the_crafter

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Lol what? Hexproof is the best purge in the game. 1600 health to remove 4 effects is ludicrously good. You're going to take that much damage from 4 dots ticking anyways if you leave them on, so the cost is essentially free.

Well yes, you can make dots to do thier job quicker by dealing 1.6k damage to yourself, or you can remove 3 dots from yourself and allies in the area, and also heal for 10k+ in burst and same amount over 5 seconds.