Whats up with all these fake dps lately

Androrix

Hasenpfote wrote: »

Lately, i see many DPS characters with ~10k dps in Vet dungeons or Vet DLC dungeons. It is no rocket science to get a stable 30k dps as DPS.
Alone today i had to abort maybe 10 dungeons as tank or healer, because it would be an endless dungeon and time is meaningful.

[snip] Lots of reasons they might do low dps. Maybe they are starting out, or not great at the game, or playing with a disbaility, or role playing with various builds. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Orbital78

oicero wrote: »

Ok, now this is a fresh one.
Not a vet dungeon just a normal daily random run but guess what, it's one of those DLCs which bosses have 5-6m health pool. So we started and at the 2nd boss I was wondering why we are going slow and why the boss following the other DPS instead of the tank. Then I realised one of DKs (2 dks - one of is tank) and the other one is so called DPS! with SnB. Checked the dps meter. I was doing 80% overall dps. I asked myself if I am the only idiot here.
I tried to warn him and what I got as an answer is below in the picture. (He said he doesn't care.) So..ok then. If you don't care, I won't either. I stopped bursting my butt off and joined them NOT to dps. It took 6 minutes.
So, it'is on witch (with the "B").

I ran into a "tank" in vet that kept dying and I asked him why he was using 2h, and it was the same reason. He likes it. I just did a /gl when I figured out we were going to struggle bus and probably not even clear the vet DLC. If you did a combat log, I bet they are running a pvp build which doesn't work so great in pve. Less of an issue in normals but I would hate it being a tank (part of the reason I don't). Most normals, even dlc, can be soloed by one decent dps. But it will get them used to being carried and think that they can do so in vet and have a reality check.

oldbobdude

I don’t think low dps means fake dd. It just means not a good dd for the content undertaken. If you had somebody who queued as a dd with a tank or healer build and skills that would be a fake dd. Lol

Azphira

oldbobdude wrote: »

If you had somebody who queued as a dd with a tank or healer build and skills that would be a fake dd. Lol

I did that once, was bored and queued my healer as fake dps, no one died that run, but I think it ticked off the other healer.

spartaxoxo

A fake is anyone who can't meet the minimum point of the role. A fake tank isn't built to taunt. A fake healer isn't built to heal others. A fake DPS isn't built to do significant damage.

MidniteOwl1913

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A fake is anyone who can't meet the minimum point of the role. A fake tank isn't built to taunt. A fake healer isn't built to heal others. A fake DPS isn't built to do significant damage.

If a tank is a tank that only has a taunt and no other tank skills and healer is a healer that just throws out orbs then a dps with low numbers is a dps.

All a re just bad at the role under that definition not fakes.

Ishtarknows

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A fake is anyone who can't meet the minimum point of the role. A fake tank isn't built to taunt. A fake healer isn't built to heal others. A fake DPS isn't built to do significant damage.

If a tank is a tank that only has a taunt and no other tank skills and healer is a healer that just throws out orbs then a dps with low numbers is a dps.

All a re just bad at the role under that definition not fakes.

You could argue that for a Damage Dealer to fullfil their role at a minimal level (similar to the use taunt or heal you posted about) they should be able to outdps a tank or healer - otherwise they are not fulfilling their role and you might as well get 4 supports in. Since my fully specced as a tank character pulls about 7k DPS and my healer double that anything less that lets say 12-15k DPS is a fake DD.

spartaxoxo

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A fake is anyone who can't meet the minimum point of the role. A fake tank isn't built to taunt. A fake healer isn't built to heal others. A fake DPS isn't built to do significant damage.

If a tank is a tank that only has a taunt and no other tank skills and healer is a healer that just throws out orbs then a dps with low numbers is a dps.

All a re just bad at the role under that definition not fakes.

My armor and my pets are "real" dps by that metric. I could go afk with my pets out and be called a real dps by that definition.
A dps isn't just anything that does damage. It's a character built to do significant damage. In dungeons, that's a dps that can pass the dps checks. Which is the literal mechanic they are meant to handle.

Each of these are being defined as real by the mechanic they are meant to handle, not the number of skills on the bar. You only need like 15-20k to handle dps checks. Someone who can't even do that has not built their character to fulfill their role. Such low output comes from people not using damage skills and just light attacking, or throwing tons of point into their hp, not using sets that do damage, etc.

KV_Tootn

This game lets you play as everyone wants.. Its up to you if you give that dude a chance or no.. Maybe so0metimes be humble and ask why his damage is bad, maybe hes on new build.. If someone like this is in my run i dont care , all get a chance, no matters how he does... if you dont want it hapen play with group of friends. Random is always fun and something will go wrong , endure it.

Alastrine

Desiato wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Most players don’t know that when the enemy has those red lines coming off it that you need to bash him or take damage.

When the game had vet overland monsters, everyone learned this quickly after starting VR1 content!

Back in 2014, prior to the original vet content nerf which preceded the removal of vet levels, I was in total shock after starting Cadwell's Silver and realizing I didn't actually know how to play because 1-50 was so easy.

I think there was also some educational benefit when you had to do the zones in order because the mobs ramped up as you went through the story line. Taught you the importance of using your skills, upgrading your gear etc. as you went. That's all been lost with the level playing field throughout and everything adjusting to a players level. All that learning translates across the game and into dungeons as well.
It's also a personal opinion but I don't think companions have encouraged new players to learn the ropes either.

And I miss the VR days... when you couldn't even set foot in Craglorn until you were VR1, it was literally blocked... and wasp mobs there were terrifying lol.

JiubLeRepenti

derkaiserliche wrote: »

Since people need to to vet dungeons for monster heads, its totally fine if they do low dps.

Vet trials is a different thing of course, since you dont "need" to do it.

No need to go vet to get a decent DPS.

You can simply replace the two slots dedicated to monster sets with a craftable/buyable set such as Mother's Sorrow, Order Wrath, Hunding, Julianos...

This is actually what I do on each new char I create : I craft the following stuff :

• 5x Order Wrath (armor)
• 5x New Moon Acolyt (weapons/jewlery)
• 2x Hunding/Julianos/Mother Sorrow for shoulders/head

+ classic buffs (food, Mundus, etc.)

Trust me or not, but with a level 15 character, it allows me to hit above 30k on a 3M.

Every 10 levels, I recraft the sets (everything in purple except weapons, and divine glyphs) since the build perfs will lower everytime you gain levels.

Jimbru

I think some of the "fake DPS" issue may be due to the power creep of content vs. CP levels. I say this because I have had a repeat problem lately with underpowered groups in vet DLC dungeons. For example, last night I went to do the pledge in vet Shipwright's Regret on my healer, and ended up with three people who in total had less CP than me. The tank was a real tank and only 450ish, but he did his best; great effort, seriously. Unfortunately, one DPS was only 350ish, the other was 950ish, and they couldn't finish fights before the tank and I were worn out. I gave up after three wipes on the first boss; three strikes, I'm out. This sort of thing has been happening to me a lot lately, and I'm starting to think maybe the CP threshold for vet DLC dungeons needs to be raised.

Jimbru

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

derkaiserliche wrote: »

Since people need to to vet dungeons for monster heads, its totally fine if they do low dps.

Vet trials is a different thing of course, since you dont "need" to do it.

No need to go vet to get a decent DPS.

You can simply replace the two slots dedicated to monster sets with a craftable/buyable set such as Mother's Sorrow, Order Wrath, Hunding, Julianos...

This is actually what I do on each new char I create : I craft the following stuff :

• 5x Order Wrath (armor)
• 5x New Moon Acolyt (weapons/jewlery)
• 2x Hunding/Julianos/Mother Sorrow for shoulders/head

+ classic buffs (food, Mundus, etc.)

Trust me or not, but with a level 15 character, it allows me to hit above 30k on a 3M.

Every 10 levels, I recraft the sets (everything in purple except weapons, and divine glyphs) since the build perfs will lower everytime you gain levels.

This. Players now are spoiled for craftable generic DPS gear. Any class can take 5x Order's Wrath, 5x Hunding's or Julianos depending on stam or mag, 2x whatever that you can replace with a monster set or mythic later, and do reasonable damage in like 90% of PVE content. After that, it's more a matter of learning how to play than your gear.

Ezhh

My personal measure of whether a DD is "fake" is whether I outdamage them while on full healer spec with just my wall and light attacks.

That said, people can argue over the terminology all they want and say I should call such people "bad DDs" instead, but in the end it doesn't change that it makes the experience of a support truly terrible.

Bonus points for randoms where I find myself with two such DDs, along with a fake tank, so I am also holding the boss while my wall slowly tickles things to death as the main source of dps in the group.

The really sad thing: a lot of these players tend to be 1.5k CP+. I'll be way more patient when they are lower CP, but there has to be a point from which we can expect people to make some kind of effort.

markulrich1966

it is not so much about the gear, but about the rotation. 2-3 years ago, there were widespread nerfs, that forced you to use light attack weaving in case you would have the same dps than before the nerfs without it.

I tried to adapt, resulting in a beginning carpal-tunnel syndrome, so I used the emergency break and switched to Fallout 76, that does not require a rotation, light attack weaving, or animation cancelling.

Many players are younger than me (58), and don't experience such pain in their hands yet, so they continue this way and complain about "fake DPS". This likely will change once they encounter such health issues, too. The "fake" DPS might be luckier, avoiding such issues by just playing the game the way most games are intended to be played.

Jimbru

markulrich1966 wrote: »

it is not so much about the gear, but about the rotation. 2-3 years ago, there were widespread nerfs, that forced you to use light attack weaving in case you would have the same dps than before the nerfs without it. *snip*

Light attack weaving is the worst thing about combat in this game. I will go to my grave saying that light attacks should be an autoattack, and animation canceling should be automatic.

Ezhh

markulrich1966 wrote: »

it is not so much about the gear, but about the rotation. 2-3 years ago, there were widespread nerfs, that forced you to use light attack weaving in case you would have the same dps than before the nerfs without it.

I tried to adapt, resulting in a beginning carpal-tunnel syndrome, so I used the emergency break and switched to Fallout 76, that does not require a rotation, light attack weaving, or animation cancelling.

Many players are younger than me (58), and don't experience such pain in their hands yet, so they continue this way and complain about "fake DPS". This likely will change once they encounter such health issues, too. The "fake" DPS might be luckier, avoiding such issues by just playing the game the way most games are intended to be played.

I've suffered RSI myself, so I have an idea what such things can do and I'm always mindful what repetitive movements I might make with my hands and wrists while gaming. But using it as a reason for sub 10k dps doesn't work. People who complain about "fake DDs" (or many of us at least) don't really care if you light attack weave or not. From talking to people (including to offer, though not to force on them, my help), the issue often comes down to lack of knowledge.

I've encountered players who didn't even know there are skills to use so they only light attack, as well as players who just spam one DoT skill over and over without understanding they gain no damage by applying it before the effect ends. These are the kinds of players people usually mean when they say "fake DD", not someone who simply doesn't LA weave or have a full rotation.

But it's easy to fix. For example, make an Arcanist and cast Fatecarver once every 4 seconds while using a couple of crafted sets. Otherwise there are heavy attack builds that can also do the job just fine. Or be a templar and just cast jabs and nothing else. With any of these someone will do enough damage for all normal and many vet dungeons.

It sounds so easy... yet we keep seeing the 2k CP guys with a bow who only stand there and LA maybe once every 3 seconds, usually in between running away from something that won't be able to kill them anyway, in the opposite direction from the tank and healer who could otherwise offer some help.

Maybe one day they'll make a proper tutorial.

cptscotty

Why do people demand dungeons be so easy its faceroll content? Just makes the game more..."casual"...which a lot of you are talking down about but yet...are upset its not more "casual".

Kind of weird.

MidniteOwl1913

I think that talking about "fake" dps is just a distraction from the very real problem that fake tanks and healers present. Mostly in the more difficult dungeons. That and they are mostly speed runners. Or they just nope out as soon as Scribners Hall (for instance) pops up forcing a replacement that can often take a long time.

One is a bad dps? Well at least there are 2 of them.

But I understand not everyone thinks that and I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Orbital78

markulrich1966 wrote: »

Many players are younger than me (58), and don't experience such pain in their hands yet, so they continue this way and complain about "fake DPS". This likely will change once they encounter such health issues, too. The "fake" DPS might be luckier, avoiding such issues by just playing the game the way most games are intended to be played.

Have you tried heavy attack builds or Arcanist with a controller? It helps me play better with Dupuytren's, which I had a surgery for years ago. Heavy attacks kind of got overly nerfed but they are still fairly viable for most non-hardmode stuff. Arcanist with Velothi-Ur doesn't really even need to weave for decent dps, but if you throw in some light attacks for ulti-gen it helps. You can pretty much pair Sergeants Mail, with almost any set and do decent enough to be in the 40-60k range. My pug necro hybrid healer runs it with SPC. Boosting group dps and keeping everyone alive while adding some dmg buffs.

cptscotty

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I think that talking about "fake" dps is just a distraction from the very real problem that fake tanks and healers present. Mostly in the more difficult dungeons. That and they are mostly speed runners. Or they just nope out as soon as Scribners Hall (for instance) pops up forcing a replacement that can often take a long time.

One is a bad dps? Well at least there are 2 of them.

But I understand not everyone thinks that and I'm happy to agree to disagree.

oh dps going in as tank and heals is a huge problem. The game should not allow it at all for random queues. Too many times in the last few days I had to redo March of Sacrifice queue because dps queued in for Tank/Heals and the first boss couldnt be completed. Sometimes they just left as soon as they showed up because they knew it was going to be a disaster, sometimes they tried to do the boss and just apologized when they couldnt and then dropped. I think it was the 7th time of trying this week before finally getting a proper group in a random queue for that dungeon.

MidniteOwl1913

cptscotty wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I think that talking about "fake" dps is just a distraction from the very real problem that fake tanks and healers present. Mostly in the more difficult dungeons. That and they are mostly speed runners. Or they just nope out as soon as Scribners Hall (for instance) pops up forcing a replacement that can often take a long time.

One is a bad dps? Well at least there are 2 of them.

But I understand not everyone thinks that and I'm happy to agree to disagree.

oh dps going in as tank and heals is a huge problem. The game should not allow it at all for random queues. Too many times in the last few days I had to redo March of Sacrifice queue because dps queued in for Tank/Heals and the first boss couldnt be completed. Sometimes they just left as soon as they showed up because they knew it was going to be a disaster, sometimes they tried to do the boss and just apologized when they couldnt and then dropped. I think it was the 7th time of trying this week before finally getting a proper group in a random queue for that dungeon.

Yeah similar story with Scribners Hall. I like the dungeon but a fake tank won't cut it (I am the healer). And yeah it's hard to say if just dropping as soon as it pops up is worse or dying all the time on the first boss...

spartaxoxo

markulrich1966 wrote: »

it is not so much about the gear, but about the rotation. 2-3 years ago, there were widespread nerfs, that forced you to use light attack weaving in case you would have the same dps than before the nerfs without it.

I tried to adapt, resulting in a beginning carpal-tunnel syndrome, so I used the emergency break and switched to Fallout 76, that does not require a rotation, light attack weaving, or animation cancelling.

Many players are younger than me (58), and don't experience such pain in their hands yet, so they continue this way and complain about "fake DPS". This likely will change once they encounter such health issues, too. The "fake" DPS might be luckier, avoiding such issues by just playing the game the way most games are intended to be played.

I do have such pains. I use builds that allow me to still do decent damage while being easier on the hands. And if even that's too much, but for some reason I still want to play that day, I just don't queue vet.

Hapexamendios

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

cptscotty wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I think that talking about "fake" dps is just a distraction from the very real problem that fake tanks and healers present. Mostly in the more difficult dungeons. That and they are mostly speed runners. Or they just nope out as soon as Scribners Hall (for instance) pops up forcing a replacement that can often take a long time.

One is a bad dps? Well at least there are 2 of them.

But I understand not everyone thinks that and I'm happy to agree to disagree.

oh dps going in as tank and heals is a huge problem. The game should not allow it at all for random queues. Too many times in the last few days I had to redo March of Sacrifice queue because dps queued in for Tank/Heals and the first boss couldnt be completed. Sometimes they just left as soon as they showed up because they knew it was going to be a disaster, sometimes they tried to do the boss and just apologized when they couldnt and then dropped. I think it was the 7th time of trying this week before finally getting a proper group in a random queue for that dungeon.

Yeah similar story with Scribners Hall. I like the dungeon but a fake tank won't cut it (I am the healer). And yeah it's hard to say if just dropping as soon as it pops up is worse or dying all the time on the first boss...

I use a tanky dps build with a taunt in there on normal and biggest problem with the first boss there was the book mechanic. I could hold the boss, take care of the adds and do the mechanic with standing on the AOE attack to block it just fine. But the others would just ignore the book mechanic. They would all die. Sometimes I could get someone up if they're in the main fighting area, I can eventually beat him if I'm careful as well, but it is frustrating as well. It's much quicker if the mechanics are followed.

moderatelyfatman

Hasenpfote wrote: »

Lately, i see many DPS characters with ~10k dps in Vet dungeons or Vet DLC dungeons. It is no rocket science to get a stable 30k dps as DPS.
Alone today i had to abort maybe 10 dungeons as tank or healer, because it would be an endless dungeon and time is meaningful.
So please, if you are a new player, get equipment first. If you have no idea, what to farm, go wayrest NORMAL or blessed NORMAL, there you can find some easy equipment, which boosts your damage to 30k+ dps. For Empower source, take oakensoal if possible, if not, get mageguild to level 9 or take empower from scribing skills or class kills, if available.

I was in a PUG when I noticed that the Arcanist with 300+ CP seemed to be doing very little damage. Curiosity got the better of me so I turned on Encounter log and I saw this.....
(I think maybe people aren't quite optimising their builds?)

Rowjoh

what do you expect when the game has been casualised to such an extent that players are more interested in obtaining googly-eyed multi-coloured sparkly cartoon mounts than taking the time to build for and learn how to dps properly.

Jimbru

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I think that talking about "fake" dps is just a distraction from the very real problem that fake tanks and healers present. Mostly in the more difficult dungeons. That and they are mostly speed runners. Or they just nope out as soon as Scribners Hall (for instance) pops up forcing a replacement that can often take a long time.

I think the game needs to introduce anti-rushing mechanics. So sick of joining a dungeon and a rusher takes off and is halfway to the second boss before the rest of the group is even logged in, leaving the rest of the group to deal with crowds of angry mobs on the way. This is especially hard on new players who haven't done the dungeon yet, and rushing fools who get them killed are their first impression of how dungeons work, so they end up avoiding group content or leaving the game altogether. Screw rushers. If your time is really that precious to you, then you should be doing something more worthwhile with it than playing a game. Lone player gets too far ahead of the group? Sheogorath laughs out loud and turns them into a statue until we catch up.

markulrich1966

Orbital78 wrote: »

markulrich1966 wrote: »

Many players are younger than me (58), and don't experience such pain in their hands yet, so they continue this way and complain about "fake DPS". This likely will change once they encounter such health issues, too. The "fake" DPS might be luckier, avoiding such issues by just playing the game the way most games are intended to be played.

Have you tried heavy attack builds or Arcanist with a controller?

yes, I turned more than half of my 72 alts into HA builds.
But as those got nerfed too, I gave up.
Problem is, that you are forced into "niche-gameplay" in this game, if you can't or won't use an unhealthy playstyle.
As most other games don't force you that way, I switched to those.

One of my favourite tasks in ESO was farming worldbosses, you mostly had to do that solo, as there were not enough other players around like 4 years ago in summerset, when WB-farming was still done by groups.
As I no longer could do this after the nerfs, I now just login for daily rewards, some endeavours, and sometimes events.

We had adressed these problems often already years ago in this forum, but ZoS tried to focus on different things. It is ok, it is their game, but they lost me as an interested and well paying (>1000 Euro) elderly customer.

Elsonso

markulrich1966 wrote: »

it is not so much about the gear, but about the rotation. 2-3 years ago, there were widespread nerfs, that forced you to use light attack weaving in case you would have the same dps than before the nerfs without it.

I tried to adapt, resulting in a beginning carpal-tunnel syndrome, so I used the emergency break and switched to Fallout 76, that does not require a rotation, light attack weaving, or animation cancelling.

Light attack weaving is not required. I learned it but never mastered it. My current favorite builds are heavy attack builds, so I don’t use it. I actually don’t want to.

Besides, the need for high DPS numbers in this game are more akin to a belief system, than a fact. The biggest thing about high DPS is that it controls the duration of combat, not necessarily the outcome. Makes the game easier. There aren’t that many DPS checks in this game.

Anyway, the point is that all of the content in this game can be done without light attack weaving.

Muizer

Ishtarknows wrote: »

You could argue that for a Damage Dealer to fullfil their role at a minimal level (similar to the use taunt or heal you posted about) they should be able to outdps a tank or healer - otherwise they are not fulfilling their role and you might as well get 4 supports in. Since my fully specced as a tank character pulls about 7k DPS and my healer double that anything less that lets say 12-15k DPS is a fake DD.

I've not heard that one before. That's actually not a bad approach to this question. Well done!