Whats up with all these fake dps lately

Hasenpfote

Lately, i see many DPS characters with ~10k dps in Vet dungeons or Vet DLC dungeons. It is no rocket science to get a stable 30k dps as DPS.
Alone today i had to abort maybe 10 dungeons as tank or healer, because it would be an endless dungeon and time is meaningful.
So please, if you are a new player, get equipment first. If you have no idea, what to farm, go wayrest NORMAL or blessed NORMAL, there you can find some easy equipment, which boosts your damage to 30k+ dps. For Empower source, take oakensoal if possible, if not, get mageguild to level 9 or take empower from scribing skills or class kills, if available.

alternatelder

There is no such thing as fake dps, just bad dps. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

CrashTest

Once you understand that the vast majority of the player base is casual, then it will make sense.

derkaiserliche

Since people need to to vet dungeons for monster heads, its totally fine if they do low dps.

Vet trials is a different thing of course, since you dont "need" to do it.

Hasenpfote

So fake tanks and fake healer are just bad tanks and bad healers, i understand ...

About casual players, it is fine to be casual, but then they should do normal dungeons and not vet dungeon and blocking a slot for a medicore dps. I have no high expections in a dungeon, my espections are really pretty low, but if it takes 15 minutes to reach the first boss, then i know i have to leave the group and start over. Or i just relog to another character. Or i simply ask to get kicked, so i can start over without waiting.

It is not hard to do meaningful dps, even as casual.

LaintalAy

Hasenpfote wrote: »

Lately, i see many DPS characters with ~10k dps in Vet dungeons or Vet DLC dungeons. It is no rocket science to get a stable 30k dps as DPS.
Alone today i had to abort maybe 10 dungeons as tank or healer, because it would be an endless dungeon and time is meaningful.
So please, if you are a new player, get equipment first. If you have no idea, what to farm, go wayrest NORMAL or blessed NORMAL, there you can find some easy equipment, which boosts your damage to 30k+ dps. For Empower source, take oakensoal if possible, if not, get mageguild to level 9 or take empower from scribing skills or class kills, if available.

Yes, sir. Right away sir. My feet are like wings, Sahib.

If you truly abandoned ten dungeons, then it's unlikely that your time is as important as you say it is.

Desiato

alternatelder wrote: »

There is no such thing as fake dps, just bad dps. [snip]

I think there is.

I understand overland content is very forgiving, so players aren't forced to learn how to build or play optimally. So as long as players try their best, I don't really hold low dps against them.

However, there's a kind of selfish player, in the same vein as a fake tank or healer, who will queue into a random dungeon with a completely undeveloped alt who is just looking for a pure carry. They don't tank, they don't heal, they don't dps well because they barely try and it shows.

Often they are a fake tank/healer who can't dps either. [snip]

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

DenverRalphy

Hasenpfote wrote: »

Lately, i see many DPS characters with ~10k dps in Vet dungeons or Vet DLC dungeons. It is no rocket science to get a stable 30k dps as DPS.
Alone today i had to abort maybe 10 dungeons as tank or healer, because it would be an endless dungeon and time is meaningful.
So please, if you are a new player, get equipment first. If you have no idea, what to farm, go wayrest NORMAL or blessed NORMAL, there you can find some easy equipment, which boosts your damage to 30k+ dps. For Empower source, take oakensoal if possible, if not, get mageguild to level 9 or take empower from scribing skills or class kills, if available.

Translation - Only players that can support a speed run through a vet dungeon need apply.

Elsonso

Hmm. Average player, average DPS?

alternatelder

Hasenpfote wrote: »

So fake tanks and fake healer are just bad tanks and bad healers, i understand ...

About casual players, it is fine to be casual, but then they should do normal dungeons and not vet dungeon and blocking a slot for a medicore dps. I have no high expections in a dungeon, my espections are really pretty low, but if it takes 15 minutes to reach the first boss, then i know i have to leave the group and start over. Or i just relog to another character. Or i simply ask to get kicked, so i can start over without waiting.

It is not hard to do meaningful dps, even as casual.

No, a fake tank and healer are literally just that, fake. They are a dps with (but mostly without) a heal or taunt just to bypass df queue. 🤦 Just find your own group, stop using df if you're mad a majority of the playerbase is just casual and not your personal top tier dps machine that can carry you through the dungeon.

valenwood_vegan

Find some friends who can actually live up to your standards? Randos unfortunately aren't required to.

Hasenpfote

I dont go for speedrun, i really dont care if a dungeon takes longer because of bad dps, but if the dps is so bad, that you wont finish the dungeon before the final boss goes crazy like in banshied cells 2, what is the intention to still try this dungeon while you know you wont kill this boss without kicking both dps players at final boss.

If you have a boss with 8M life and the grp dps is 20k dps, the bossfight would take almost 7 minutes.

Vet DLC dungeons are designed for players, that fullfill a minimum of experience and equipment. If you have a tank and a healer with mixed gear, that can deliver a meaningful amount of dps, it is ok, if the dps-roles do 5k dps. If you have a full tank and a full healer, so they dont do damage, instead buffing the grp and you still have 5k dps dd, then you will sumup 20k dps group dps and now how explain me, how you want to do deepen grave dungeon for example on vet.

Cities of Ash 2 is another example, this dungeon is exceptional long, a fast normal grp takes around 30 minutes, a low dps grp often takes 60 minutes.

EF321

alternatelder wrote: »

There is no such thing as fake dps, just bad dps. [snip]

Random veteran dungeon, 40k SnB and taunting boss with puncture. That is fake DPS in my book.


Edit: found pic

I did few vet dungeons for class scraps this month, had three of these occasions with SnB "DD" taunting boss...

[edited to remove quote]

katanagirl1

Yeah I think for dps it is just not knowing what to do and that they need to do it. I was a low dps player once, nothing in the game taught me that I needed to hit skills every second with a light attack between, and keep the rotation going constantly.

Most players don’t know that when the enemy has those red lines coming off it that you need to bash him or take damage.

It’s also very easy for beginner players to think they are better than they really are because they don’t realize that the group is actually carrying them.

moo_2021

EF321 wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

There is no such thing as fake dps, just bad dps. Stop with this trolling nonsense.

Random veteran dungeon, 40k SnB and taunting boss with puncture. That is fake DPS in my book.

What's the problem if she doesn't die from mechanic?

xylena_lazarow

alternatelder wrote: »

There is no such thing as fake dps, just bad dps. [snip]

This is why you have a tank shortage. This attitude.

[edited to remove quote]

MidniteOwl1913

Maybe what we need are just some new words. A fake is someone who signed up for a support role with no intentions for fulfilling that role. They do this for a shorter queue time. Often this goes hand and hand with running ahead to get through the dungeon as quickly as possible. It's not about the content it's about the rewards for them.

Then there are players that are just bad. They stand in red. They don't have any shield so they are constantly dying. They don't recognize the mechanics even when told. They don't stick with the group. There can be actual healers and tanks in this group they are just bad. Support roles need different skills than dps and it can take a while to learn the ropes. These are not fakes. When you want to refer to this group don't call them fakes, they are not that they are just not very good yet.

Sarannah

It's because players cannot learn their roles in normal dungeons anymore, so they have no choice but to learn in veteran dungeons. Speedrunners/fake roles are the cause of this.

EF321

moo_2021 wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

There is no such thing as fake dps, just bad dps. Stop with this trolling nonsense.

Random veteran dungeon, 40k SnB and taunting boss with puncture. That is fake DPS in my book.

What's the problem if she doesn't die from mechanic?

I queued as a real tank. Not fake. They are stealing my primary function and not doing theirs.

Desiato

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Most players don’t know that when the enemy has those red lines coming off it that you need to bash him or take damage.

When the game had vet overland monsters, everyone learned this quickly after starting VR1 content!

Back in 2014, prior to the original vet content nerf which preceded the removal of vet levels, I was in total shock after starting Cadwell's Silver and realizing I didn't actually know how to play because 1-50 was so easy.

RexyCat

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Yeah I think for dps it is just not knowing what to do and that they need to do it. I was a low dps player once, nothing in the game taught me that I needed to hit skills every second with a light attack between, and keep the rotation going constantly.

Most players don’t know that when the enemy has those red lines coming off it that you need to bash him or take damage.

It’s also very easy for beginner players to think they are better than they really are because they don’t realize that the group is actually carrying them.

The main issue is often that someone in group is running/sprinting too far away from group which in turn make it hard for new player or player with low CP to keep up as when they finally get to boss or mobs they have almost no stamina left. Another issue is range vs melee where melee need to avoid getting caught in AoE or surrounded by too many mobs at once as stamina weapon don't have much tools to teleport to target and out of danger (exception here is NB which have access to class skill that help with that).

Not everything in this game is about high DPS, but how group in dungeon can cover each weakness that they have and that means coordinate what to do and when to do it.

In a random group wait until every body are at the same place, let the last person in group have time to regenerate stamina, magica and HP so everybody have full resources and then let tank control (taunt or attack boss) to avoid healer and DD get hit when possible.

Damage dealer need to be aware about ranged mobs in dungeon and not only focus on boss - in short handle mechanic which is what most of those "fake" discussion very often seem to lack.

Yes it will take more time when there is low damage then it would have Damage Dealer with max damage that kill everything before anybody can get a hit in and then move to next target just to complain that that everybody else is "fake" in group content. Not to forget that those damage dealer with very high damage also ignore mechanic which in turns will leave rest of group confused or under performing even with their low damage.

Fake here is just lazy expression for not willing to take time to coordinate and let each role fill out for weaknesses as to provide cover for what those player in group might lack in mobility and damage reduction or self healing.

There are also a large difference between player that have gear from doing Trail and those that doesn't do Trail, not to forget that Mythic gear will take time to actually find.

Then we have the classic "I can't see a darn thing because camera are going back and forth in cramped places", with all Visual FX that might be nice on movies, but aren't that nice when you try to see something while still avoid standing in red or purple or green or what every new colour that ZoS might have invented to make you swim in tears of frustration...

Casdha

TLDR;
If it bothers you that bad don't use group finder, In 10 years time I've never used it. I don't like the fact that you have to pick a roll.

I gear all of my characters for me. This is why I have never used group finder. I build mine in a direction but none of them are true anything.

If I run with a group I tend to run with friends I've made in game that know my style of play and I don't get any complaints. It probably doesn't hurt that I've soloed most all of the base group dungeons on normal and a few on Vet but I've never gotten a single target DPS much above 20k, I have hit 80s with groups of targets but I can't sustain that for more than a pull or two before I have to worry about sustain.

I've even had to slog a few bosses at 9 - 10k because I have to make sure I survive but I can get it done with out dying and that is good enough for me.

CP5

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Yeah I think for dps it is just not knowing what to do and that they need to do it. I was a low dps player once, nothing in the game taught me that I needed to hit skills every second with a light attack between, and keep the rotation going constantly.

Most players don’t know that when the enemy has those red lines coming off it that you need to bash him or take damage.

It’s also very easy for beginner players to think they are better than they really are because they don’t realize that the group is actually carrying them.

Desiato wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Most players don’t know that when the enemy has those red lines coming off it that you need to bash him or take damage.

When the game had vet overland monsters, everyone learned this quickly after starting VR1 content!

Back in 2014, prior to the original vet content nerf which preceded the removal of vet levels, I was in total shock after starting Cadwell's Silver and realizing I didn't actually know how to play because 1-50 was so easy.

I honestly feel this right here is the core issue. Most players likely come to ESO because of the overland content, but the main content that they do, the exploration and questing, fails in every regard to challenge players and force them to learn. It isn't about using skills optimally or weaving between attacks, but even understanding what their skills do.

When I was new, level 5 on my first character, I was going around killing mudcrabs by spamming poison arrow and mages wraith, despite the former being a skill designed to deal most of its damage over time, and the latter being an execute. It wasn't until my second silver zone that I even tried surge, which was the point in my time in silver zones where I went from struggling and using a restoration staff to stay alive to being comfortable because I finally realized my class had an amazing heal I should be using. I hadn't even used negate up until this point, but it turns out being able to shut down a group of enemies all at once is very powerful, and became a favorite ultimate for a long time.

Because newer players are able to save the world in a dozen different ways, reach high levels, all without hitting challenges that make them think about what tools they have available to succeed, and because normal dungeons are flooded with experienced players looking to farm quick runs, they don't learn or grow, and the step-up to vet is seen as extreme, because they got there without learning to learn. I refused to dps vet dungeons until I finished vMA after a poor run with friends, because I felt that was the way to prove to myself that I wouldn't be a burden to them, and content like that would do wonders in helping players learn, because as it is now when I heal for pugs, I can out dps the damage dealers with resto heavy attacks with a build 100% built around amplifying their damage. And that is the reason why most genuine support players never touch the dungeon finder, which is why there are so many dps flagging as supports to skip the line, it's a problem that builds on itself.

ShadowPaladin

Hasenpfote wrote: »

I dont go for speedrun, i really dont care if a dungeon takes longer because of bad dps, but if the dps is so bad, that you wont finish the dungeon before the final boss goes crazy like in banshied cells 2, what is the intention to still try this dungeon while you know you wont kill this boss without kicking both dps players at final boss.

If you have a boss with 8M life and the grp dps is 20k dps, the bossfight would take almost 7 minutes.

Vet DLC dungeons are designed for players, that fullfill a minimum of experience and equipment. If you have a tank and a healer with mixed gear, that can deliver a meaningful amount of dps, it is ok, if the dps-roles do 5k dps. If you have a full tank and a full healer, so they dont do damage, instead buffing the grp and you still have 5k dps dd, then you will sumup 20k dps group dps and now how explain me, how you want to do deepen grave dungeon for example on vet.

Cities of Ash 2 is another example, this dungeon is exceptional long, a fast normal grp takes around 30 minutes, a low dps grp often takes 60 minutes.

First, let me say the following. I do agree with you regarding the point of Vet DLC dungeons being designed for players, that do have a certain amount of experience of their class, how to play it, as well as of the dungeon(s) and how the mechs of bosses on vet (and at the end HM) do work. I also do agree on the point that some dungeons may take some more time to complete than others in general, because of more trash mob groups, more complex mechanics and or a larger area to walk through.

BUT!

Then there is the thing about players doing not enough dps to get through stuff *FAST* or at least *in a reasonable amount of time*. Here I must say, that I do not agree with you completely!

I do understand and I can sympathise if someone gets restless and antsy (in a bad way), because something takes for ever, I have been through such situations countless times . But, still. If the group is working (more or less) and everything can be done, even if it will take more time than normal, I don't see any reason to complain about it. If it takes 7 min to kill a boss, what the hell does it matter?! If the boss is killed, its ok. Also, if it did take so long because people aren't knowledgeable about certain things, than say something along the lines of *GG, we did it! But, it took quite some time. If you want to do it faster and I am quite certain you do, then you perhaps should think about doing .... .*. I did that a few times in similar situations as the one(s) you discribed and the result was that half of the times people asked me for input on how to get better., which I did gave them .

From my experience most of the time the problem of damage dealers not doing enough damage could be solved if there would be less people complaining about such players and excluding them, or giving up on them (e.g. leaving dungeons and or groups, just because the damage isn't what you want it to be) and instead offering to help them (BUT NOT by forcing your own playstyle upon them, but instead giving them infos, insights and tips ).

Only if it really does not work and if it will really take forever to get something done (for example FG1 or BC1 on normal with 10+ tries at the endboss), then you can and should state the obvious fact, that some group members should first do something about their equipment, skills and other things, before trying to do a dungeon and leave.

katanagirl1

Desiato wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Most players don’t know that when the enemy has those red lines coming off it that you need to bash him or take damage.

When the game had vet overland monsters, everyone learned this quickly after starting VR1 content!

Back in 2014, prior to the original vet content nerf which preceded the removal of vet levels, I was in total shock after starting Cadwell's Silver and realizing I didn't actually know how to play because 1-50 was so easy.

I was pleasantly surprised that players at the Mirrormoor incursions know to bash the guy with the spinny flames over his head who is shooting out fireballs that are quite devastating to everyone in the area. Gg.

ShadowPaladin

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I was pleasantly surprised that players at the Mirrormoor incursions know to bash the guy with the spinny flames over his head who is shooting out fireballs that are quite devastating to everyone in the area. Gg.

That is because we do have mobs using this sort of skill quite often ingame and if players are bombarded with a certain thing, they - in most cases - are able to learn how to work/counter it.

Soarora

alternatelder wrote: »

There is no such thing as fake dps, just bad dps. [snip]

I am inclined to once again say that fake dps does exist, I have seen it with my own eyes. There are people who queue as DPS when they're really a tank or a healer. At least twice have I ended up with two full healers in a dungeon.

[edited to remove quote]

Hapexamendios

Had a fake tank yesterday who was also a atrocious DPS. Needless to say I left.

alternatelder

Soarora wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

There is no such thing as fake dps, just bad dps. [snip]

I am inclined to once again say that fake dps does exist, I have seen it with my own eyes. There are people who queue as DPS when they're really a tank or a healer. At least twice have I ended up with two full healers in a dungeon.

That's not a fake role like a fake tank or healer, no support role intentionally queues as a dps. That's just accidentally clicking on wrong role, which I have done myself when quickly fiddling in that menu many times, and is not hard to accidentally do on console, that's just the [snip] controls here.

[edited for profanity bypass & to remove quote]

SeaGtGruff

EF321 wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

There is no such thing as fake dps, just bad dps. [snip]

Random veteran dungeon, 40k SnB and taunting boss with puncture. That is fake DPS in my book.


Edit: found pic

I did few vet dungeons for class scraps this month, had three of these occasions with SnB "DD" taunting boss...

I have to agree. If a non-tank who queues as a tank is a fake tank, and if a non-healer who queues as a healer is a fake healer, then a non-DD who queues as a DD is a fake DD. This is not to say that there are not tanks, healers, and DDs who are simply bad (unskilled or uneducated) at their roles.

[edited to remove quote]

ElderSmitter

Hasenpfote wrote: »

Lately, i see many DPS characters with ~10k dps in Vet dungeons or Vet DLC dungeons. It is no rocket science to get a stable 30k dps as DPS.
Alone today i had to abort maybe 10 dungeons as tank or healer, because it would be an endless dungeon and time is meaningful.
So please, if you are a new player, get equipment first. If you have no idea, what to farm, go wayrest NORMAL or blessed NORMAL, there you can find some easy equipment, which boosts your damage to 30k+ dps. For Empower source, take oakensoal if possible, if not, get mageguild to level 9 or take empower from scribing skills or class kills, if available.

100k+ DPS player here and I cannot play because of these insane Lag Spikes. I would run Dungeons all Day. Many on PCNA know me from all the Gold Motif Mask hunting runs we do. I would Also Tank them if needed. So, i am 1 less High Level DPS player in the mix. This could also be contributing to the lack of DPS.