Ithelia looks so weird

Elvenheart

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

Is she sporting what could be a slightly updated character model? They eventually NEED to do that

That was my first guess. I’m all for updated NPCs but I know some players will have an absolute meltdown if their characters get touched.

I would just die if my current characters changed to looking like something like Ithelia. That happened in Dark Age of Camelot and I quit playing.

Edit to add: I love the concept of Ithelia and her look in other representations like the trailers and the statue I ordered and recently got a notice that it’s about to be shipped (yeay!), but I’m disappointed in her in-game appearance.

One more edit: Her name is similar to that of an Elven Goddess, Elthea, in one of my all-time favorite books series that starts with Strands of Starlight by Gael Baudino. It’s probably very hard to find now because it’s pretty old, but I highly recommend it.

Scaletho

Plada wrote: »

Hello! Sorry, but why Ithelia looks so weird? Her face model doesn't fit into the game at all.
Is there any explanation why she looks so strange? Does it work as it should be?

I took these screenshots from the other players to show you this:

She looks like a weird fish. Is she some bad designed mermaid or something?

Tenthirty2

Plada wrote: »

I doubt she would choose a face like that

"Dave!"

"Hey Phil, sup?"

"Dave did you remember to replace the placeholder textures on Ithelia's face before rollout?"

"..."

"Dave?"

"Crap."

Glad it wasn't just me, saw her first last night and the face looks very odd.
Like someone did a quick\bad photoshop c\p of someone else's face on the model.

The texture also looks strange, especially around the cheekbones and mouth. Reminds me of stylized outlining on textures in Borderlands, forget what the technique is that makes things more cartoonish looking.

ArchangelIsraphel

meekmiko wrote: »

Not sure where people are pulling Britney Spears or Cher from, lawl.
I'm definitely getting Billie Eilish vibes from her tho.

Britney from the statue in the Bethesda store, which has a very uncanny resemblance to a young Britney Spears and barely looks a thing like the promo or in game model.

Cher from the general vibe of the clothing looking a lot like some of the things she wore on stage, + the length of the face, cheekbones, and jaw shape, which reminds me of Cher in her younger years. Plus the hooded eyes. (ETA: Which isn't a bad thing. I've always thought Cher was quite pretty, actually)

I can definitely see the Billie Eilish vibes, however, so this will most certainly be added to the list of Ithelia's various transformations which are now becoming a part of my demented head-cannon. >_>

Syldras wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

There is a contradiction in your post.
The fictional world doesn't require characters in games to be "realistic" and "believable", players demand it because they want reality to transfer into the game.

Of course it's the audience that wants and defines "believability" (and does that by comparing it to what they know from real life). I thought that was clear from what I wrote, as a story has no capability to judge itself, so the term "being believable" has to refer to the audience.

And certainly it is possible to write a story differently, but it is doubtful whether the majority of the audience will find it appealing if it differs too much from what they are used to and perceive as "normal", "realistic" or "relatable".

Also, I never said that Ithelia wasn't "allowed" to be beautiful. I just find the mindset of some players who think that every female character has to meet current beauty standards, or that that would be the most important characteristic, questionable.

I agree with this, and with a lot of the other things you've said in this thread.

My issues with her really don't lie with her -looks- themselves, or even her aesthetic, but with the fact that I'm unable to take her seriously because of the anatomical issues with her face, including, but not limited to, the fact that her head looks way too big for her body and the...fishyness of the eyes.

All of the varying problems with how her face is functioning don't look like deliberate alterations to anatomy as we know it in order to create something ethereal- they look like mistakes.

For example, I'm a big fan of High Elves and Dark Elves. There are a LOT of things about their faces that wouldn't be considered "human" in terms of anatomy- but it's clear that they were done intentionally. And the eldritch departure from what we know to be human is why I like them. Even so, there are certain proportional rules their faces, heads, and bodies still follow, that keep them from looking off. The deviations from human anatomy they do have look good because of it. (It actually bothers me when they make the elves look "too human" in trailers, because I like the look of ES elves a lot.)

The problem with Ithelia's in-game model is that almost everything about her seems to suggest that she has a face that's meant to resemble that of a "human", and because of that, anatomical errors (like the thing happening with her eyes) are more glaring. Her appearance and the trailers and the statue seems to suggest that she's chosen a more human form.

It's also the inconsistency of her appearance from place to place that gets me. While it's common for the trailers in ESO not to resemble the actual characters in game, the fact that she seems to be shape-shifting between appearances in-game is...odd. Maybe it's intentional? I can't tell, because it feels like inconsistency in production.

All my joking in this thread aside, I actually like the way she looks (particularly her costume and ornamentation)

But the flat texture of her face, the weird thing happening with the eyes (her eyelids don't even look dimensional) and the proportional issues are really killing any intimidation factor she might have had.

radiostar

Should have gone with Melisandre.
But it does look like Rosario meditating.

verminjerky

Those of us who test on PTS have been telling them since April that this character model was not going to go over. I suspect some - or most - of the ZOS team knew, too. No idea if they'll go back and Sonic it now but this needed reconsidered before release. We knew the reaction was going to be bad.

Araneae6537

verminjerky wrote: »

Those of us who test on PTS have been telling them since April that this character model was not going to go over. I suspect some - or most - of the ZOS team knew, too. No idea if they'll go back and Sonic it now but this needed reconsidered before release. We knew the reaction was going to be bad.

Going by your screenshots, Ithelia looks more expressive while the other NPC has a rather bland generic look, IHMO. An exception is her eyes, as others have pointed out, missing some light reflection, and in others’ screenshots, her eyes don’t always appear to be looking in the same direction or focusing where one would expect.

kaushad

I think she looks a bit more as I'd expect in the Outcast Inn quest (I mean the other Ithelias) , although her facial animation is still a bit off, like in a game 20 years older.

TheMajority

She got paste-on-face syndrome from Oblivion

ESO NPC and character model look so much better, brighter eyes, good expressions

She look bored and tired. maybe she is supposed to but she just seem disinterested even in her own words. expression don't match her words.

I had a bus driver in school who also strongly resemble her. No really, she look very similar, I was friends with her twin sons.

No I am NOT saying she's bad looking before anybody gets mad at that comment. It's just REALLY weird to see that face again and feel like a 13 year old getting the stare of disapproving disinterest for existing all over again

Alinhbo_Tyaka

It might be a trick of the light but to me part of the problem is the face in the screen shots does not appear to be symmetrical. The left side looks like it is drooping or slightly lower than the right side. Facial symmetry is important on how humans react to a face. To me the drooping makes me think of someone who has had a stroke or other event where they lose control of the facial muscles. Facial features that do not fit with a character in a video game.

ArchangelIsraphel

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

It might be a trick of the light but to me part of the problem is the face in the screen shots does not appear to be symmetrical. The left side looks like it is drooping or slightly lower than the right side. Facial symmetry is important on how humans react to a face. To me the drooping makes me think of someone who has had a stroke or other event where they lose control of the facial muscles. Facial features that do not fit with a character in a video game.

I've actually noticed that this happens to NPC's and even the player character now and then. Half of the face goes slack, as if it stops animating correctly. It's been noticed multiple times on Queen Ayrenn, for example.

(Though, I've done portrait work in the past, and I feel I'd be remiss if I didn't not mention that most people are not perfectly symmetrical, even if they haven't suffered from a stroke. Not being 100% symmetrical is actually perfectly normal anatomically, and often gives a face the distinctive characteristics of individuality. This isn't really an issue of "symmetry" so much as it is that the absence of the animations working correctly causes a very similar effect to the loss of muscle control experienced by those who have suffered a stroke.)

Aliyavana

i think its the eyes

SydneyGrey

I like her look. I vastly prefer her face over the Imperials' faces, both male and female.

VisitHammerfell

She looks like in the sports games when you can upload your face to a character model but they used an AI generated face to do that. Looks like a mid to late 2000s PS3 game and has an uncanny not belonging in ESO feel to be honest.

RomanRex

she looks like a spaced-out, hippie stoner who belongs in some other game.

SickleCider

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

It might be a trick of the light but to me part of the problem is the face in the screen shots does not appear to be symmetrical. The left side looks like it is drooping or slightly lower than the right side. Facial symmetry is important on how humans react to a face. To me the drooping makes me think of someone who has had a stroke or other event where they lose control of the facial muscles. Facial features that do not fit with a character in a video game.

I've actually noticed that this happens to NPC's and even the player character now and then. Half of the face goes slack, as if it stops animating correctly. It's been noticed multiple times on Queen Ayrenn, for example.

(Though, I've done portrait work in the past, and I feel I'd be remiss if I didn't not mention that most people are not perfectly symmetrical, even if they haven't suffered from a stroke. Not being 100% symmetrical is actually perfectly normal anatomically, and often gives a face the distinctive characteristics of individuality. This isn't really an issue of "symmetry" so much as it is that the absence of the animations working correctly causes a very similar effect to the loss of muscle control experienced by those who have suffered a stroke.)

It can also be attributed to whatever FOV the person is playing with. I see a lot of screenshots from ESO where the characters' faces are really distorted.

Zachary_Shadow

I was so disappointed and brought out of the immersion upon seeing her model while doing the main quest. After the big reveal of the Forgotten Prince last year, I was so excited to see ZoS take on a new Prince that was their own creation. I'm fine with Ithelia having a humanoid appearance; however, this brought similar, but worse feelings of Nocturnal's reveal in Summerset. Nocturnal, at least, still looked normal and not under cooked, even though they used a character creation for her. Here, although it's great that they made a new model, why couldn't they go in a direction like Mephala's model/face? I'm truly hoping they respond to this situation because it's just so much worse. Like I would have rather had the budget character from character creation with some more effects than this. They've made wonderful custom models and characters, and hope they go back to the drawing board to update her a bit.

EDIT: I should specify, I loved her look in the trailer and outside the game; however, the game's model looks wildly different from what we see out of game.

madman65

Today was the first time seeing her in the game and was very disappointed. Come on, I know the devs wanted her unique but sry to type "you missed" on her looks.

colossalvoids

I kinda see now why she was banished and forgotten.

MJallday

If Billie eilish and alanis Morrisette had kids…

marcbf

I suppose there must've been a reason why she was forgotten...

Asmelia

It's what happened when you take drugs for so many years you looks like Ithelia npc

SerafinaWaterstar

I like the look. Quite interesting!
Much better than the Nord one used above for comparison.

Araneae6537

Alp wrote: »

I'm no expert in anything. But I tried just making her features a bit smaller in photoshop while trying to figure out what felt off.

I much prefer the in-game version of her features, going by the screenshots. The eyes look very wrong (size, spacing, etc.) and her mouth looks like she’s simultaneously pursing her lips and pointing them down. Really, from the screenshots, it looks like the issues fine adjustments needed for the eyes and perhaps the rigging (I can’t comment on that as well just from seeing stills, and a single still can look awkward in any case, even irl).

Soarora wrote: »

Here, taking an image from the original post and taking inspiration from Alp I've edited what Ithelia looks like into what she should look like given her model. I achieved this by:
- opening her eyelids, I know she's not all there but she's not high
- reshaped her eyelids to be shaped correctly
- made her eyes face the same direction, which was the biggest problem in this screenshot
- I removed the outline around the lips. I know real lips have an outline but it doesn't help the problem. Besides, if she has eyeliner she can have lip liner - actually ended up just reducing the outline, it's still there but it isn't overpowering.
- I removed her teeth peeking through her lips
- The second image I added a highlight, the third image is the exact same without the highlight. Without the highlight she looks uncanny but at least looks decent

I tried to keep her features the same. Her eyes are a little closer together since I tried to make her eyes face the same way, but it's not a huge difference.

Edit: I did it again! This time from Plada's screenshot (post #11)


I'm not good when it comes to mouths but here I brightened her teeth, tucked them up behind her lip (which I also reduced the outline on like the other set), and also added her canines. This time I also brightened her eyes and of course opened her eyelids and made her eyes face the same direction.

In the third one I added the highlights, softened + added some shadows, and also made her markings glow because it bothers me they don't glow.

Yes! Right on, I like the second images in each series.

Syldras

TDVM wrote: »

And those who are unhappy with her looks just want her to fit the style of the game, not the style of the fish, as noted above

I'm not exactly sure why you tell me that as this is exactly what I've been writing in this thread since page 1.

I only added that, coming to character design in general, I think it's not about beauty (which is a thing some people seem to have a big focus on), but there are other factors that seem more important and also more interesting to me personally.

How would I design a character, or specifically Ithelia? I'd take into consideration in which context she appears in the game. First, let me clarify that I have only finished the scribing stuff yesterday and will start the zone quests, including the main quest, this evening. So I have no clue yet whether my assumptions are true. I think Ithelia is lost, has lost her powers, wanders between normal mortal humans? You don't have to tell me - but let's just assume that for now. Considering this, it would make sense that she looks human. She shouldn't look too unusual, too "ethereal", unnaturally beautiful, because people (not the players who know anyway, but "people" as in the people in the narration, the npcs surrounding her) would immediate notice that there's something wrong about her.

Next thing would be: How would she look as "full" Daedric Prince with her powers completely restored? I love symbolism, so I'd probably design her looks according to what she is supposed to represent: Fate, crossroads/paths, maybe even change. To make something out of that would be my priority, whether or not it is compatible with today's beauty ideals or not.

Btw, I'm still wondering why ZOS chose the mirror design with huge glass wings for her. It seems to (how to put it...) fit more to what happened to her in his story than what her capability and "function" as a Daedric Prince is? Which does seem a bit odd to me. I mean, of course she could decide to manifest in this form after what happened and could have looked completely different in earlier manifestations (before she was forgotten), but still.

Omegacron

I think these 3 minor changes would help A LOT:

• Fix the eyes so they don't look so flat/stoned, and actually focus on you like other NPCs.
• Fix the texture on the hair so it's detailed like the braids.
• Add some slight shading to her forehead - the hood hangs over the top of her face but casts no shadow. The end effect just adds to the unnatural look of her face.

These three changes alone would fix most, if not all, of the "uncanny" effect that she has.

Syldras

Okay, so I have found her now. Animated, she looks even more creepy. Her facial movements seem really asymmetrical somehow, it has to be botched in some way. I'm also not sure whether her teeth might be, well, placed incorrectly in her mouth and that might cause the perceived asymmetry? At least it looks like one side of her upper row of teeth was missing (or very dark)? And when she bent her head down while taking, the lower row of teeth were reflecting the light strongly, which the upper row did not. I regret I didn't take screenshots. It looked truly bizarre.

I mean, I understand that she is probably supposed to incite pity if we look at her, so it would make sense to give her slightly torn clothing or maybe even damaged teeth, and give her a scared staring impression, but that's not really working out in this case.

Also, in a flashback scene we see that she already had the glass wings before her banishment. I still think the glass theme is a bit weird for the Prince of Paths.

Omegacron

Syldras wrote: »

Also, in a flashback scene we see that she already had the glass wings before her banishment. I still think the glass theme is a bit weird for the Prince of Paths.

Not glass... mirror shards. Her whole theme is broken mirrors. Her realm of Oblivion is called "Mirrormoor" and her faction of Daedra is called The Shardborn.

Syldras

Omegacron wrote: »

Not glass... mirror shards. Her whole theme is broken mirrors. Her realm of Oblivion is called "Mirrormoor" and her faction of Daedra is called The Shardborn.

What are the shards of a broken mirror made of, if not glass (I mean normally; I know that you can also polish stone to serve as a mirror, but that's not the standard case)?

I still think it's a weird choice for the Prince of Paths. A mirror reflects, two mirrors facing each other reflect endlessly, but they don't show anything different, but only mirror reality. Unless you use distorting mirrors, but that's again a special case, not what you normally think of when it comes to mirrors.

You could probably make up something about the picture in the mirror being broken and then reassembled in different ways, although that also doesn't really make sense because the picture in a mirror isn't static.

LittlePinkDot

A gypsy