The Real Reason PvP and End Game PvE are so Niche

tinythinker

Stamicka wrote: »

In PvE this looks a little bit different, but it's still there. There are many mechanics in PvE content that used to kill players for getting hit by it. Due to power creep or content nerfs, these mechanics don't kill anymore. So if one player is good at avoiding this mechanic completely and another player just eats it, is there really a difference? A lot of the time the answer is no. Velothi is another example. If one player is good at light attack weaving and another isn't, but both players are in Velothi, does it matter? Not at all

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ESO never really got into stacking debuff mechanics such as "each stack of X debuff from getting his by this mechanic increases damage taken by 10%" or reduces damage done or slows resource regen. I know some siege weapons in Cyro can lower stamina or magicka but does that happen in any hardmode PvE mechanics?

On some other issues that have come up in this thread...

1. I used to play in Cyrodil a lot in 2014 and 2015 but was really dropping off near the end of 2016. I often didn't have time to farm gear, so I would craft a decent set, which was good enough. Not to do PvX or gank, but to make a difference in offensive and defensive sides for siege attacks and defense and to generally stay alive long enough between deaths to have fun. I fought some people with a proc sets (when they were starting to become a thing) to a standstill with my generic gear, helped a badly outnumbered siege rescues to victory, etc.

I was not and am not a high skill expression player and had boring gear, but getting killed in half a second by a single player was rare. Plus there were just loads more people on the map, so there was more variety of player type and more options for action on the map. That type of engagement has dried up with the mostly empty Cyro map. And chasing some new meta to see it change over and over isn't something I'm interested in.

2. I agree that mythics like Oakensoul are good for those with accessibility issues. I also get the concern that some people will just use it to skip the time it takes to improve skill expression. But you can't make people care about skill expression. Group PvE (except for the lower levels) is something I also got away from a long time ago because for some reason no matter how I try I can't seem to weave with a staff. I noticed I can do it some on a melee weapon. Weird. I don't use Oakensoul but I can see the appeal for those who struggle with the rhythm of weaving or have issues sustaining high apm.

3. Having so many sets and skills you can mix and match can be good or bad. When I thought about doing an ice build (before ice staff became mostly associated with tanking), I learned that it was too far behind fire and lighting, at least at that time. More recently (last year or so) I was thinking of getting lots of poison-based sets for a DK, then finding out the damage would be waaaaaaay better with just non-themed ("boring") stamina/weapon damage sets. I mean, I guess that might OK be for a themed overland experience, normal base-game dungeons, etc., but without player-run sites, figuring that out they might not work well for other content would be a long process of trial and error or sitting with a spreadsheet trying to crunch numbers.

4. Players have been asking for better tutorials and better rewards for a long time. At least some movement has been seen on the latter. But yeah, the game tries to appeal to both Elder Scrolls Fans and MMO Fans, and while there is a decent amount of overlap, it does present opposing or incompatible possibilities and options for game development.

5. Here is something else to ponder that might be related: increasing preference for solo play or loosely grouped open world play across many if not most MMOs. Heck, I myself am in four guilds that vary from dead to barely active. It was five like that, but I guess the owner of one of them finally logged in again a few months ago and nuked it. Contact list is also dead. And I don't mind actually being in an (active) guild or having an active contact list and chatting with folks. There were plenty of people who didn't want to do that achievement for the house guest last month even though you could just "/z Hey, doing that housing achievement" and get a group quick. Not criticizing them, but the pool of people with the interest and willingness and comfort level to do some types of activity is limited even before issues with combat & gear frustration, tutorials, etc. come into play.

I'll stop here, but yeah, there are definitely a lot of things that shape the current situation with PvP and end-game PvE.

katanagirl1

Sakiri wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.

Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.

How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?

Just throwing it out there that I've cleared just about every base vet trial and a few hard modes without a meta group, as a HA oakensoul sorc. Also not meta.

If you're not into super hardcore sweaty trifectas and the like, sure, you can pretty much play what build you want with a few caveats.

If you don't know what you're doing, build and gear isn't going to help you at all. I can log in to someone else's meta arcanist with perfected everything and the top dps on the server, and I won't have two titmice worth of ideas on how to play it, and would probably get outdps'd by the healers. Gear and build aren't everything.

Oakensorc will prevent you from joining our trials team because you can’t run Cloudrest. We have had a few subs run them but if they become permanent team members then they need to play something else.

You can run an oakensoul sorc, you just can't run half a trial group of them.

I've never been picked for the bar swap mechanic with the ring on and I got my vCR+1 with it on.

That said, I'd probably take another character if I was doing vCR+2 or +3.

It selfishly pushes the mechanic on to the rest of your group, making it harder for everyone else while you just coast along. BUT if someone dies with the mechanic it can jump to you with no way of mitigating it.

I've also done it on a 2bar build and never gotten the mechanic. That part is completely rng.

I have yet to be in a group though that has refused to take a sole oaken player though, "selfish" or not. I just don't run with that crowd. And I'd rather take the oaken than a guy that dies half a dozen times to it, then when asked about it says "what's a bar swap?". That is the reason they first started taking me actually lol.

But anyway...

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Also you have to consider the goal of running the trial. If you just want a clear, then running meta is not required but will make it easier.

If you want to score push, then running meta will probably be required.

I just don’t like the terms “elitist” or “gatekeeping”. It implies the leads are being exclusive for no reason. Some people might do that, but generally most people who take the time to set up and run a trial just want to ensure success for the group. Your actions affect 11 other people during that time frame.

Our trial group started from zero about 1.5 years ago. We farmed our nonperfected gear, ran Craglorn trials hard mode, then did vmolhm. We are now doing vdsr for our perfected gear. We’ve gotten much better in that time and learned to work together. Even then, it has not been easy. If I had to pug these trials, I probably would have quit long ago. It is so much harder with randoms.

Funnily enough, I just joined a core for this zero to hero idea myself. I even went out of my way to haul ass and learn MK stamsorc for the group. Raid lead wants me on oaken. I offered to take my magplar. Nope, wants my oakensorc. ><

Worked out well for you then. We all started out on whatever class we had (it was stamblade for me) but we had too many stam players so I opted to run magcro since they needed one. I knew that I would not be allowed to keep running stamblade anyway since it was not top dps by any means at that point. The constant bar swapping to keep blastbones up on the necro and light attacking killed my right hand though, so I made an arcanist.

This is a great example of how it is up to the discretion of the group lead to do what he thinks is best for the group.

EDIT: just to clarify, I meant your example is a good one

Sakiri

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.

Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.

How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?

Just throwing it out there that I've cleared just about every base vet trial and a few hard modes without a meta group, as a HA oakensoul sorc. Also not meta.

If you're not into super hardcore sweaty trifectas and the like, sure, you can pretty much play what build you want with a few caveats.

If you don't know what you're doing, build and gear isn't going to help you at all. I can log in to someone else's meta arcanist with perfected everything and the top dps on the server, and I won't have two titmice worth of ideas on how to play it, and would probably get outdps'd by the healers. Gear and build aren't everything.

Oakensorc will prevent you from joining our trials team because you can’t run Cloudrest. We have had a few subs run them but if they become permanent team members then they need to play something else.

You can run an oakensoul sorc, you just can't run half a trial group of them.

I've never been picked for the bar swap mechanic with the ring on and I got my vCR+1 with it on.

That said, I'd probably take another character if I was doing vCR+2 or +3.

It selfishly pushes the mechanic on to the rest of your group, making it harder for everyone else while you just coast along. BUT if someone dies with the mechanic it can jump to you with no way of mitigating it.

I've also done it on a 2bar build and never gotten the mechanic. That part is completely rng.

I have yet to be in a group though that has refused to take a sole oaken player though, "selfish" or not. I just don't run with that crowd. And I'd rather take the oaken than a guy that dies half a dozen times to it, then when asked about it says "what's a bar swap?". That is the reason they first started taking me actually lol.

But anyway...

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Also you have to consider the goal of running the trial. If you just want a clear, then running meta is not required but will make it easier.

If you want to score push, then running meta will probably be required.

I just don’t like the terms “elitist” or “gatekeeping”. It implies the leads are being exclusive for no reason. Some people might do that, but generally most people who take the time to set up and run a trial just want to ensure success for the group. Your actions affect 11 other people during that time frame.

Our trial group started from zero about 1.5 years ago. We farmed our nonperfected gear, ran Craglorn trials hard mode, then did vmolhm. We are now doing vdsr for our perfected gear. We’ve gotten much better in that time and learned to work together. Even then, it has not been easy. If I had to pug these trials, I probably would have quit long ago. It is so much harder with randoms.

Funnily enough, I just joined a core for this zero to hero idea myself. I even went out of my way to haul ass and learn MK stamsorc for the group. Raid lead wants me on oaken. I offered to take my magplar. Nope, wants my oakensorc. ><

Worked out well for you then. We all started out on whatever class we had (it was stamblade for me) but we had too many stam players so I opted to run magcro since they needed one. I knew that I would not be allowed to keep running stamblade anyway since it was not top dps by any means at that point. The constant bar swapping to keep blastbones up on the necro and light attacking killed my right hand though, so I made an arcanist.

This is a great example of how it is up to the discretion of the group lead to do what he thinks is best for the group.

EDIT: just to clarify, I meant your example is a good one

I understood

I love my stamblade but I agree, it's just not in a favorable spot right now.

I'll still probably swap to a 2 bar build for cloudrest. It's just easier. Though I did a +1 last night on magplar and it was a disaster, they'd put me on orbs and I kept having to run out of stuff and argh. No good dps

Soarora

tinythinker wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

In PvE this looks a little bit different, but it's still there. There are many mechanics in PvE content that used to kill players for getting hit by it. Due to power creep or content nerfs, these mechanics don't kill anymore. So if one player is good at avoiding this mechanic completely and another player just eats it, is there really a difference? A lot of the time the answer is no. Velothi is another example. If one player is good at light attack weaving and another isn't, but both players are in Velothi, does it matter? Not at all

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ESO never really got into stacking debuff mechanics such as "each stack of X debuff from getting his by this mechanic increases damage taken by 10%" or reduces damage done or slows resource regen. I know some siege weapons in Cyro can lower stamina or magicka but does that happen in any hardmode PvE mechanics?

The only stacking debuff I can think of is in SWR where the more you get hit by water in the last boss, the more damage you take. There are stacking damage such as in CA and DSR. There’s also attacks that decrease damage done or increase damage taken but those attacks hit the tank. Stacking debuffs for damage taken instead of piling on wipe mechanics could be a good route for ZOS to go down though. The new trial seems to have a mix of a debuff and stacking damage (ex. Doing a mechanic gives you a dot and also debuffs you, doing the mechanic again adds another more painful dot).

AvalonRanger

1, "Player building based action game = ESO" is Niche and dated.
Most of action game fan will give up this kind of "gap" between ESO and
contemporary AAA action game. And, say "good bye".
It's time to stop "meta game" design.

2, Character building mechanics of ESO is too much complex for the newbies.
I'm CP over 2100 now, but still can't fully understand all mechanics of ESO.

3, Some of ESO game mech design is too much vague and unfair design.
Most of newbie will feel huge stress against those type of game design.

alpha_synuclein

Sakiri wrote: »

I've also done it on a 2bar build and never gotten the mechanic. That part is completely rng.

I would like some of that RNG I don't think I ever had a run of Cloudrest without getting it.

Sakiri wrote: »

Funnily enough, I just joined a core for this zero to hero idea myself. I even went out of my way to haul ass and learn MK stamsorc for the group. Raid lead wants me on oaken. I offered to take my magplar. Nope, wants my oakensorc.

That's actually smart. Those fancy compositions with buff/debuff stacking and DDs in support sets only work if:
1. those DDs can get very good uptimes on debuffs (and group is coordinated enough to allow for it)
2. the overall damage of the group is high enough to justify dropping individual DPS for the sake of increasing groups DPS by few %

Group like the one you're describing usually don't meet this conditions. Also, in beginner groups the players that most often volunteer to be support DDs are usually the most experienced ones (and the hardest hitters). Lowering their individual damage for the sake of buffing group DPS by few percent might not end up increasing the overall damage at all.

If the groups goal is just to clear some vets it is usually easier to put players on setups that they can handle well. The only reason I would ask for MK in such group would be aiming higher in the future and making the vet clear a training ground before HM and potentially a trifecta later on.

J18696

Personally I don't think the barrier to entry for pve its really that high I would argue it's more people trying to complete content that's far above their skill level to early and not wanting to take the time to properly learn rotations mechanics and get the correct setups todo the content.

That said I also don't think zos does a very good job at showing a progression path between content and as much as they want to push this "play how you want idea" in some content in certain roles that just isn't going to fly

AvalonRanger

AvalonRanger wrote: »

1, "Player building based action game = ESO" is Niche and dated.
Most of action game fan will give up this kind of "gap" between ESO and
contemporary AAA action game. And, say "good bye".
It's time to stop "meta game" design.

2, Character building mechanics of ESO is too much complex for the newbies.
I'm CP over 2100 now, but still can't fully understand all mechanics of ESO.

3, Some of ESO game mech design is too much vague and unfair design.
Most of newbie will feel huge stress against those type of game design.

"penetration" "reinforced" "Nirn? trait" "Crit or damage".....
Only in Trial, Only against players....\(*_*)/ What ??????

The ESO character building "word" is alien language for me.

Just make it "simple" and "sophisticated".

"Damage or Defensive" "Team work or solo"
The game doesn't need other option as combat action game.

Erissime

barney2525 wrote: »

IMHO, if they did not have gear designed specifically and soley for PvP, they would have a lot more participants.

Players play the game and improve their gear as they go. Once they reach 50/160 they end up with a choice. Either keep playing PVE or switch over and play PvP. The gearing is completely different. And, where really high quality PVE gear can be crafted, not so much for PvP. That top gear has to be farmed.

If ALL the gear was equally effective, be it in PVE or PvP, players would more readily switch back and forth, and participate in both aspects, depending on what their mood was that day. If they knew their PVE gear was also top tier PvP, they would be glad to hop over to Cyradil now and then.

Actually whatever "pvp gear" is out there is hardly ever used in actual pvp. The best combinations of gear comes mostly from pve content and crafting. And while the game does have a "pvp only" drop of gear, in the end the players set up the "bar" sort to speak as to what goes and what doesn't. So in stead of being daunted by what's on the paper, get out there, try whatever and enjoy. There is no "top gear", only understanding of what goes and what doesn't - which ultimately is very personal. So if you don't play, you don't konw. I've seen good players with "bad gear" doing so called wonders, and bad players with the latest builds unable to pull the good out of them. But since I speak in generalities, here is a set I believe many pvpers quite enjoy: Wretched Vitality. I invite you to find out where does it come from.

So to sum it all up - what changes between pve and pvp are the "requirements" of stats sort to speak. Not the gear. You must know what gives where, and build accordingly. Do pve builds work in pvp and vice-versa? A good player will tell you "no", but there are still plenty who do it and are happy. Gear provenience has nothing to do with said builds.

Arrodisia

I agree with some of the things the op has stated. There is definitely a common set of issues here and there are some barriers. Players of different skill levels and players enjoying different types of content will almost definitely disagree on how to solve the issues.

Players not engaging in PvP or PvE group end game content is something that happens in many MMO's. The majority of players, especially those working, in school and managing families look at the huge chunk of time it takes to prep themselves for endgame as it currently stands and they decide against it.

coming in so late many feel rushed. So they don't even want to bother. The fun they thought they were going to have gets replaced with weeks and months of grinding xp, skill points, leveling abilities, ... They barely have any time to discover the game itself and talk to the players in their guilds before they're pushed nose first into said grind.

The devs over time foxhole themselves and the upper 5 or less percent of endgame players into a repetitious cycle that cuts them off from the rest who want to try it out. The difficulty of trials needs no increase. It simply needs to be fun and involve mechanics where players can work together. One shot mechanics, dps race, amongst other things are the death of that. They drain the fun out of these activities for the majority. An MMO is supposed to be about the majority of players having fun online not a small percent alone.

Things like that pit the players to do certain things like hypermicromanage everything about their builds/groups in that trial. Most players are already managing their real lives. what comes in the game is supposed to be fun not take 3 hours tutorial videos and links every day. by the time they watch the videos and read a gajillion guides their allotted playtime is over.

All games need to open the doors every once in a while to get new and returning players into these activities. Dial back a teensy bit on difficulty but make the dungeons or trials more interesting and fun. Then begin slowly increasing difficulty again at a later time until the sweet spot is reached.

alpha_synuclein

Arrodisia wrote: »

I agree with some of the things the op has stated. There is definitely a common set of issues here and there are some barriers. Players of different skill levels and players enjoying different types of content will almost definitely disagree on how to solve the issues.

Players not engaging in PvP or PvE group end game content is something that happens in many MMO's. The majority of players, especially those working, in school and managing families look at the huge chunk of time it takes to prep themselves for endgame as it currently stands and they decide against it.

coming in so late many feel rushed. So they don't even want to bother. The fun they thought they were going to have gets replaced with weeks and months of grinding xp, skill points, leveling abilities, ... They barely have any time to discover the game itself and talk to the players in their guilds before they're pushed nose first into said grind.

That is true mostly when you are trying to do all of the grind fast. It seems like ESO is the type of game that assumes accumulation of goods over time more than gives opportunities to powerlevel.

Although I would agree that there is a bit too much to it. ZOS like to stress that all they are about is giving players choices, but what they actually create is rather owerwhelming environment, with ton of very situational solutions that add to the grind unnecessarily. It is nice to have choices and different types of gearsets, but is few hunderd sets really a reasonable number? And they keep coming up with new ones. While for veterans that play for several years already adding something new to the pile they already collected might be attractive, for someone new sheer amount of choices end up as too much to be bothered with. Especially when game itself don't give you any directions about how to make a build that work the way you want.

Arrodisia wrote: »

The devs over time foxhole themselves and the upper 5 or less percent of endgame players into a repetitious cycle that cuts them off from the rest who want to try it out. The difficulty of trials needs no increase. It simply needs to be fun and involve mechanics where players can work together. One shot mechanics, dps race, amongst other things are the death of that. They drain the fun out of these activities for the majority. An MMO is supposed to be about the majority of players having fun online not a small percent alone.

Things like that pit the players to do certain things like hypermicromanage everything about their builds/groups in that trial. Most players are already managing their real lives. what comes in the game is supposed to be fun not take 3 hours tutorial videos and links every day. by the time they watch the videos and read a gajillion guides their allotted playtime is over.

All games need to open the doors every once in a while to get new and returning players into these activities. Dial back a teensy bit on difficulty but make the dungeons or trials more interesting and fun. Then begin slowly increasing difficulty again at a later time until the sweet spot is reached.

Do they though? The only content that is made with endgame players in mind is the trial HM, that we get once a year. This doesn't feel like too much of a focus on this part of the playerbase. Especially if you consider how much content we're getting each year. Normal trials are extremely accessible, there are no dps checks and most oneshot mechanics are disabled. The vet version is more difficult, but still within reach of an average player. All you need is a group of people that don't mind wiping a bit while figuring things out.

The issue is not that endgamers are doing endagame-ish things that might not be suitable for beginners. The issue is there is very little support in getting from the stage of beginner to the endgame. And this is not something that can be fixed by players. OP is right that ZOS's approach is crucial. And lacking.