Exactly, and sadly it's hard to find active guilds that approach endgame PvE with that kind of mindset. Which again, is the biggest problem I have with it.liliub17_ESO wrote: »Agreed. A player should have the basics down pat before they venture into a HM dungeon, Trials, or other higher level areas. They shouldn't expect to be carried, but neither should they be expected to have meta builds and certain sets. While I have never had the misfortune of being in a PUG that called for builds to be shared before starting, I have seen it in chat and heard of it from others. On one hand, I get it - on the other, hard nope, not going to even consider being part of that.
The closest I've gotten to an experience like this was with a guild group (years ago). They all started, for lack of a better phrase, freaking out (we were in a vc on Discord) because we were stuck on a boss. I think we wiped about three or four times and then I looked up a guide.... the guide suggested multiple things we were not doing and I shared the tactics with them, starting with the one I thought was most reasonable for us to attempt doing. They acted like I was stupid for even suggesting it, mansplaining and all, and said it wasn't possible (it definitely was if the healer simply paid attention to the mechanic). I suggested another one. They said that wasn't how it was supposed to be done (they kept saying to just "burn the boss") and we weren't able to do it anyway, even though in our tries before I was definitely able to accomplish what it suggested doing pretty easily; I just wasn't focusing on it as a mechanic and instead "burning the boss down" like they were saying we were supposed to do. After that option, they started questioning my build and asking me what I was running. I stated that my build has nothing to do with our problem and that my suggestions were from an actual guide for the dungeon, but they're dismissing all of them. I ended up leaving the group and never participated in vet dungeon runs with them again, shortly left the guild after.liliub17_ESO wrote: »Thing is, with the experience I shared, it was assumed that it was my non-meta build that caused the entire party to fail. We were the usual party of 2 DPS, healer, and tank - I was the last one standing half the time (though when I fell, it was quickly, to be fair), yet clearly it was all because of my build which I had developed and played successfully for the entire game at that point. /sarcasm To be clear, the others were good players. We just took a bit to gel into a solid party who could whoop the boss' arse. (This was a while ago, remember.)
Exactly, and sadly it's hard to find active guilds that approach endgame PvE with that kind of mindset. Which again, is the biggest problem I have with it.
alpha_synuclein wrote: »Exactly, and sadly it's hard to find active guilds that approach endgame PvE with that kind of mindset. Which again, is the biggest problem I have with it.
The only reason for it is that mmo and meta oriented players don't shy away from organizing their own raid groups and communities in a way that they enjoy playing. That is much less likely to happen with play the way you want players, regardless of them being much bigger group overall.
alpha_synuclein wrote: »Exactly, and sadly it's hard to find active guilds that approach endgame PvE with that kind of mindset. Which again, is the biggest problem I have with it.
The only reason for it is that mmo and meta oriented players don't shy away from organizing their own raid groups and communities in a way that they enjoy playing. That is much less likely to happen with play the way you want players, regardless of them being much bigger group overall.
It also doesn't help that the guild finder is mostly trash.
I noticed though that a lot of training guilds have vanished over the years. Those went a long way towards helping get people ready for trials.
Galeriano2 wrote: »That's a good point. With so many people complaining about groups that require for people to wear optimised setups You would think there would be hundereds if not thousands of guilds already focused on "play as You want" theme yet You barely see any.
That's a good point. With so many people complaining about groups that require for people to wear optimised setups You would think there would be hundereds if not thousands of guilds already focused on "play as You want" theme yet You barely see any. And the ones You see are usually not getting much of success especially in harder content.
I've seen a few posts recently about why PvP is niche as well as posts about why trials are unwelcoming to new players. I think both of these things are related and I wanted to make a post about my thoughts on the situation.The thing that PvP and end game PvE have in common is that they are both combat oriented competitive activities. I also see a big divide within ESO's playerbase between casual and competitive players. While such a divide is hard for a game developer to deal with, I think ZOS' current approach is the worst of both worlds and in the end, players near both ends of the spectrum are unhappy with the game.
does anybody remember laughter?
I've seen a few posts recently about why PvP is niche as well as posts about why trials are unwelcoming to new players. I think both of these things are related and I wanted to make a post about my thoughts on the situation.The thing that PvP and end game PvE have in common is that they are both combat oriented competitive activities. I also see a big divide within ESO's playerbase between casual and competitive players. While such a divide is hard for a game developer to deal with, I think ZOS' current approach is the worst of both worlds and in the end, players near both ends of the spectrum are unhappy with the game.
I didn't read the entirety of your post.
You don't seem to understand that traditional Elder Scrolls players Morrowind; Oblivion; Skyrim might not be as competitive as you think. These people form the basis of what experienced MMO players demeaningly refer to as 'casual'.
Going way back to 2003, one of the very first 'Morrowind' mod websites was 'Morrowind Abodes'. These people produced the very first player houses with the TESCS. Anyone who remembers this, will also remember the 'double door' problem that was eventually solved by identifying the GMST bug (Argent). This issue started a very long tradition of game modding.
What happened here is that Morrowind players wanted a place to go and personalise; and store their loot. Yes, occassionly they had to fight critters or nasty dudes, but for the most part, we tripped around in our own little fantasy land, doing our own little fantasy thing. Why do you think player housing is so popular in ESO?
I challenge your assertion that "that they are both combat oriented competitive activities".
No. Some of us just want to escape the overly competitive world that we live in.
I also challenge your assertion that "ZOS' current approach is the worst of both worlds".
Whatever the approach, it reportedly earned them USD200M per year for the past 10 years.
So, ZOS probably think they've got it right...
As a 'Morrowind refugee' I would be am arguing that most of the current problems are generated from MMO players coming to ESO from lesser games and insisting that ESO be changed to be 'more like' the game(s) that they just left.
Just play the game the way it is, instead of the endless moaning about literally everything.
Just cope with it. It's just a game. It's supposed to be fun.does anybody remember laughter?
I really disagree with this take. Lots of MMORPG veterans hate ESO's combat that's true. I'm the opposite, I can't stand tab target combat with cooldowns. I'm not gonna suggest WoW and related games to change for me, I'm just gonna play games with combat systems I like. Lots of people like the tab target cooldown style, lots of people like the ESO's action combat approach. Neither type of game needs to completely change their combat system to become like the other. The players just have to decide which one they prefer and play the game that suits them...
I disagree. This is the only MMO I struggle with finding a chill guild like how I would want; to clarify.... one with people who take the game seriously, but not to the point of focusing on the meta and parsing like they're something to live and die by. Guilds as a feature seem to be struggling in ESO in general though, and as years have gone by I actually think the type of players I'd want to do endgame PvE with just aren't really around anymore (I know most I knew like that, about three small-medium sized guilds worth, quit entirely for another MMO or just play super off and on now).alpha_synuclein wrote: »The only reason for it is that mmo and meta oriented players don't shy away from organizing their own raid groups and communities in a way that they enjoy playing. That is much less likely to happen with play the way you want players, regardless of them being much bigger group overall.
I disagree. This is the only MMO I struggle with finding a chill guild like how I would want; to clarify.... one with people who take the game seriously, but not to the point of focusing on the meta and parsing like they're something to live and die by. Guilds as a feature seem to be struggling in ESO in general though, and as years have gone by I actually think the type of players I'd want to do endgame PvE with just aren't really around anymore (I know most I knew like that, about three small-medium sized guilds worth, quit entirely for another MMO or just play super off and on now).alpha_synuclein wrote: »The only reason for it is that mmo and meta oriented players don't shy away from organizing their own raid groups and communities in a way that they enjoy playing. That is much less likely to happen with play the way you want players, regardless of them being much bigger group overall.
I mean, seriously.... once upon a time, I was in multiple guilds that were more casual about their approach to endgame PvE. I joined them after receiving a simple invite after playing with some people just randomly. That never happens anymore. Only time I've experienced that in the last three years was after a BG for a PvP guild.
Either way, I'm fine with the situation since I manage to run with PUGs just fine at the end of the day and I simply choose to approach this game with mostly a solo mindset at this point (like most players, I'd even dare to say). But the discussion is about reasoning why the endgame in ESO is pretty niche (with me focusing on PvE in all my posts here).... and well, I gave my reasoning and view on the point. People can sit here and pick it apart if they want, but it doesn't change the fact that from where I've been sitting.... all I see in the guild finder are "hardcore PvE endgame" guilds with about info/descriptions alone that make my eyes roll to the back of my head and only three people I know still play this ever waning game remotely regularly. It's niche, and will probably continue to be so.
As a 'Morrowind refugee' I would be am arguing that most of the current problems are generated from MMO players coming to ESO from lesser games and insisting that ESO be changed to be 'more like' the game(s) that they just left.
Just play the game the way it is, instead of the endless moaning about literally everything.
Just cope with it. It's just a game. It's supposed to be fun.does anybody remember laughter?
Yeah, I honestly think that crowd has just kind of died out over the years and/or became super casual+solo. I have been considering starting my own guild up again, but I'm a bit hesitant since my last one ended up being problematic and I'm going into it with even fewer hands than before since all of my irl friends quit except for one. But I would really like to revitalize my love for this game (it's there, just kind of faint) and being able to do vet content more regularly again.... in a Discord call, all having fun together, etc.... would definitely help in doing so.
katanagirl1 wrote: »Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.
Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.
How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?
katanagirl1 wrote: »Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.
Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.
How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?
katanagirl1 wrote: »Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.
Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.
How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?
Just throwing it out there that I've cleared just about every base vet trial and a few hard modes without a meta group, as a HA oakensoul sorc. Also not meta.
If you're not into super hardcore sweaty trifectas and the like, sure, you can pretty much play what build you want with a few caveats.
If you don't know what you're doing, build and gear isn't going to help you at all. I can log in to someone else's meta arcanist with perfected everything and the top dps on the server, and I won't have two titmice worth of ideas on how to play it, and would probably get outdps'd by the healers. Gear and build aren't everything.
Been playing 10 years but no trials for about the last 5. I absolutely would not feel comfortable joining any trial group. I have most monsters and almost every gear set and enough in game coin to gold up any gear sets. (except trials) Not sure where 2100 plus CP lands you in PVE groups. I don't think the healing rotation would be that difficult as a healer. Not sure about mechanics. I just got back from WOW Classic SOD and none of the raid mechanics were a problem. I raided all the way from Vanilla to WOTLk in WOW but northing in ESO. I think I've done most dungeons in ESO on HM (except for newest ones). Haven't had problems with dungeon vet or hm mechanics but idk about trials. PVE guilds are so elitist I wouldn't even consider running a trial. I don't have the contact base that would make allowances for me to learn. I think it's really too late for me to start trials now. But you absolutely can NOT run trials (IMO) in just any gear and not be familiar with the mechanics. Seems you would have to have meta in gold, maybe with one or two purple items. And ALL consumes,
PVP is really easy for me but I tank up and run solo at Cyro. I don't BG anymore because I don't want to have to do a different no CP build/gear.
And I don't think ZOS is the problem. The problem is lack of gear and experience with new players. They give up before getting them. I watch new players at Cyro and it's cringe. I feel sorry for them. There are too many years now and new players would have to commit a fair number of hours learning. Unless they have a lot of carry over from other MMO's, which seems to help.
katanagirl1 wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.
Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.
How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?
Just throwing it out there that I've cleared just about every base vet trial and a few hard modes without a meta group, as a HA oakensoul sorc. Also not meta.
If you're not into super hardcore sweaty trifectas and the like, sure, you can pretty much play what build you want with a few caveats.
If you don't know what you're doing, build and gear isn't going to help you at all. I can log in to someone else's meta arcanist with perfected everything and the top dps on the server, and I won't have two titmice worth of ideas on how to play it, and would probably get outdps'd by the healers. Gear and build aren't everything.
Oakensorc will prevent you from joining our trials team because you can’t run Cloudrest. We have had a few subs run them but if they become permanent team members then they need to play something else.
You can run an oakensoul sorc, you just can't run half a trial group of them.
I've never been picked for the bar swap mechanic with the ring on and I got my vCR+1 with it on.
That said, I'd probably take another character if I was doing vCR+2 or +3.
katanagirl1 wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.
Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.
How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?
Just throwing it out there that I've cleared just about every base vet trial and a few hard modes without a meta group, as a HA oakensoul sorc. Also not meta.
If you're not into super hardcore sweaty trifectas and the like, sure, you can pretty much play what build you want with a few caveats.
If you don't know what you're doing, build and gear isn't going to help you at all. I can log in to someone else's meta arcanist with perfected everything and the top dps on the server, and I won't have two titmice worth of ideas on how to play it, and would probably get outdps'd by the healers. Gear and build aren't everything.
Oakensorc will prevent you from joining our trials team because you can’t run Cloudrest. We have had a few subs run them but if they become permanent team members then they need to play something else.
You can run an oakensoul sorc, you just can't run half a trial group of them.
I've never been picked for the bar swap mechanic with the ring on and I got my vCR+1 with it on.
That said, I'd probably take another character if I was doing vCR+2 or +3.
Do guilds in eso trials use Parses and Logs?
katanagirl1 wrote: »Also you have to consider the goal of running the trial. If you just want a clear, then running meta is not required but will make it easier.
If you want to score push, then running meta will probably be required.
I just don’t like the terms “elitist” or “gatekeeping”. It implies the leads are being exclusive for no reason. Some people might do that, but generally most people who take the time to set up and run a trial just want to ensure success for the group. Your actions affect 11 other people during that time frame.
Our trial group started from zero about 1.5 years ago. We farmed our nonperfected gear, ran Craglorn trials hard mode, then did vmolhm. We are now doing vdsr for our perfected gear. We’ve gotten much better in that time and learned to work together. Even then, it has not been easy. If I had to pug these trials, I probably would have quit long ago. It is so much harder with randoms.
katanagirl1 wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.
Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.
How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?
Just throwing it out there that I've cleared just about every base vet trial and a few hard modes without a meta group, as a HA oakensoul sorc. Also not meta.
If you're not into super hardcore sweaty trifectas and the like, sure, you can pretty much play what build you want with a few caveats.
If you don't know what you're doing, build and gear isn't going to help you at all. I can log in to someone else's meta arcanist with perfected everything and the top dps on the server, and I won't have two titmice worth of ideas on how to play it, and would probably get outdps'd by the healers. Gear and build aren't everything.
Oakensorc will prevent you from joining our trials team because you can’t run Cloudrest. We have had a few subs run them but if they become permanent team members then they need to play something else.
You can run an oakensoul sorc, you just can't run half a trial group of them.
I've never been picked for the bar swap mechanic with the ring on and I got my vCR+1 with it on.
That said, I'd probably take another character if I was doing vCR+2 or +3.
It selfishly pushes the mechanic on to the rest of your group, making it harder for everyone else while you just coast along. BUT if someone dies with the mechanic it can jump to you with no way of mitigating it.
katanagirl1 wrote: »Also you have to consider the goal of running the trial. If you just want a clear, then running meta is not required but will make it easier.
If you want to score push, then running meta will probably be required.
I just don’t like the terms “elitist” or “gatekeeping”. It implies the leads are being exclusive for no reason. Some people might do that, but generally most people who take the time to set up and run a trial just want to ensure success for the group. Your actions affect 11 other people during that time frame.
Our trial group started from zero about 1.5 years ago. We farmed our nonperfected gear, ran Craglorn trials hard mode, then did vmolhm. We are now doing vdsr for our perfected gear. We’ve gotten much better in that time and learned to work together. Even then, it has not been easy. If I had to pug these trials, I probably would have quit long ago. It is so much harder with randoms.