The Real Reason PvP and End Game PvE are so Niche

fizzylu

liliub17_ESO wrote: »

Agreed. A player should have the basics down pat before they venture into a HM dungeon, Trials, or other higher level areas. They shouldn't expect to be carried, but neither should they be expected to have meta builds and certain sets. While I have never had the misfortune of being in a PUG that called for builds to be shared before starting, I have seen it in chat and heard of it from others. On one hand, I get it - on the other, hard nope, not going to even consider being part of that.

Exactly, and sadly it's hard to find active guilds that approach endgame PvE with that kind of mindset. Which again, is the biggest problem I have with it.

liliub17_ESO wrote: »

Thing is, with the experience I shared, it was assumed that it was my non-meta build that caused the entire party to fail. We were the usual party of 2 DPS, healer, and tank - I was the last one standing half the time (though when I fell, it was quickly, to be fair), yet clearly it was all because of my build which I had developed and played successfully for the entire game at that point. /sarcasm To be clear, the others were good players. We just took a bit to gel into a solid party who could whoop the boss' arse. (This was a while ago, remember.)

The closest I've gotten to an experience like this was with a guild group (years ago). They all started, for lack of a better phrase, freaking out (we were in a vc on Discord) because we were stuck on a boss. I think we wiped about three or four times and then I looked up a guide.... the guide suggested multiple things we were not doing and I shared the tactics with them, starting with the one I thought was most reasonable for us to attempt doing. They acted like I was stupid for even suggesting it, mansplaining and all, and said it wasn't possible (it definitely was if the healer simply paid attention to the mechanic). I suggested another one. They said that wasn't how it was supposed to be done (they kept saying to just "burn the boss") and we weren't able to do it anyway, even though in our tries before I was definitely able to accomplish what it suggested doing pretty easily; I just wasn't focusing on it as a mechanic and instead "burning the boss down" like they were saying we were supposed to do. After that option, they started questioning my build and asking me what I was running. I stated that my build has nothing to do with our problem and that my suggestions were from an actual guide for the dungeon, but they're dismissing all of them. I ended up leaving the group and never participated in vet dungeon runs with them again, shortly left the guild after.
It's almost as if they had in their minds that instead of actually doing mechanics, the way to play was just to have so much damage to "burn the boss", like they kept repeating despite it not being effective, to the point that you don't even need to do mechanics.... because other than that, I can't figure a reason why they kept brushing off actual tips and tricks from a dungeon guide to instead make it a build problem (they weren't even playing with meta builds btw so extra wtf).... but either way, I have zero interest in dealing with players like that and that's not even close to being my idea of a good time.

Amottica

Because of the community raids are very welcoming to newer players. That does not mean every group or guild is going to take on players new to the game who have not proven themselves, as that would be a disaster. There are guilds for all levels of players. There are good social guilds that run raids that are perfect for the newer player or just a player who is new to raids or is more laid-back with their gaming style.

The reality is that once the player finds a guild that is a good fit for them, they will get help learning the various aspects of how to play ESO. If they put the effort into it they will be able to move up to more competitive or skilled guilds. There are also resources on the internet which are very helpful. The new player must take initiative if they want to learn to play the game well or even just improve.

This is the reality in ESO and any MMORPG and it is really this simple.

alpha_synuclein

fizzylu wrote: »

Exactly, and sadly it's hard to find active guilds that approach endgame PvE with that kind of mindset. Which again, is the biggest problem I have with it.

The only reason for it is that mmo and meta oriented players don't shy away from organizing their own raid groups and communities in a way that they enjoy playing. That is much less likely to happen with play the way you want players, regardless of them being much bigger group overall.

Sakiri

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

Exactly, and sadly it's hard to find active guilds that approach endgame PvE with that kind of mindset. Which again, is the biggest problem I have with it.

The only reason for it is that mmo and meta oriented players don't shy away from organizing their own raid groups and communities in a way that they enjoy playing. That is much less likely to happen with play the way you want players, regardless of them being much bigger group overall.

It also doesn't help that the guild finder is mostly trash.

I noticed though that a lot of training guilds have vanished over the years. Those went a long way towards helping get people ready for trials.

Galeriano2

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

Exactly, and sadly it's hard to find active guilds that approach endgame PvE with that kind of mindset. Which again, is the biggest problem I have with it.

The only reason for it is that mmo and meta oriented players don't shy away from organizing their own raid groups and communities in a way that they enjoy playing. That is much less likely to happen with play the way you want players, regardless of them being much bigger group overall.

That's a good point. With so many people complaining about groups that require for people to wear optimised setups You would think there would be hundereds if not thousands of guilds already focused on "play as You want" theme yet You barely see any. And the ones You see are usually not getting much of success especially in harder content.

Everyone wants to play as they want but also to do everything effectively and smoothly and these two things don't go together very well.

alpha_synuclein

Sakiri wrote: »

It also doesn't help that the guild finder is mostly trash.

I noticed though that a lot of training guilds have vanished over the years. Those went a long way towards helping get people ready for trials.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

That's a good point. With so many people complaining about groups that require for people to wear optimised setups You would think there would be hundereds if not thousands of guilds already focused on "play as You want" theme yet You barely see any.

Indeed. And it does makes me wonder what could be done ingame to encourage more people to organize themselves in the way they want to play...

INM

That's a good point. With so many people complaining about groups that require for people to wear optimised setups You would think there would be hundereds if not thousands of guilds already focused on "play as You want" theme yet You barely see any. And the ones You see are usually not getting much of success especially in harder content.

That's the thing I never understood, people act like there is some evil clique of elitists who won't let you play trials unless you succumb to their will. While in reality, you just need 11 same-minded players. I guess, these people just want to get carried instead of actively working on achieving the goal.

LaintalAy

Stamicka wrote: »

I've seen a few posts recently about why PvP is niche as well as posts about why trials are unwelcoming to new players. I think both of these things are related and I wanted to make a post about my thoughts on the situation.The thing that PvP and end game PvE have in common is that they are both combat oriented competitive activities. I also see a big divide within ESO's playerbase between casual and competitive players. While such a divide is hard for a game developer to deal with, I think ZOS' current approach is the worst of both worlds and in the end, players near both ends of the spectrum are unhappy with the game.

I didn't read the entirety of your post.

You don't seem to understand that traditional Elder Scrolls players Morrowind; Oblivion; Skyrim might not be as competitive as you think. These people form the basis of what experienced MMO players demeaningly refer to as 'casual'.

Going way back to 2003, one of the very first 'Morrowind' mod websites was 'Morrowind Abodes'. These people produced the very first player houses with the TESCS. Anyone who remembers this, will also remember the 'double door' problem that was eventually solved by identifying the GMST bug (Argent). This issue started a very long tradition of game modding.

What happened here is that Morrowind players wanted a place to go and personalise; and store their loot. Yes, occassionly they had to fight critters or nasty dudes, but for the most part, we tripped around in our own little fantasy land, doing our own little fantasy thing. Why do you think player housing is so popular in ESO?

I challenge your assertion that "that they are both combat oriented competitive activities".
No. Some of us just want to escape the overly competitive world that we live in.

I also challenge your assertion that "ZOS' current approach is the worst of both worlds".
Whatever the approach, it reportedly earned them USD200M per year for the past 10 years.
So, ZOS probably think they've got it right...

As a 'Morrowind refugee' I would be am arguing that most of the current problems are generated from MMO players coming to ESO from lesser games and insisting that ESO be changed to be 'more like' the game(s) that they just left.

Just play the game the way it is, instead of the endless moaning about literally everything.
Just cope with it. It's just a game. It's supposed to be fun.

does anybody remember laughter?

Sakiri

LaintalAy wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I've seen a few posts recently about why PvP is niche as well as posts about why trials are unwelcoming to new players. I think both of these things are related and I wanted to make a post about my thoughts on the situation.The thing that PvP and end game PvE have in common is that they are both combat oriented competitive activities. I also see a big divide within ESO's playerbase between casual and competitive players. While such a divide is hard for a game developer to deal with, I think ZOS' current approach is the worst of both worlds and in the end, players near both ends of the spectrum are unhappy with the game.

I didn't read the entirety of your post.

You don't seem to understand that traditional Elder Scrolls players Morrowind; Oblivion; Skyrim might not be as competitive as you think. These people form the basis of what experienced MMO players demeaningly refer to as 'casual'.

Going way back to 2003, one of the very first 'Morrowind' mod websites was 'Morrowind Abodes'. These people produced the very first player houses with the TESCS. Anyone who remembers this, will also remember the 'double door' problem that was eventually solved by identifying the GMST bug (Argent). This issue started a very long tradition of game modding.

What happened here is that Morrowind players wanted a place to go and personalise; and store their loot. Yes, occassionly they had to fight critters or nasty dudes, but for the most part, we tripped around in our own little fantasy land, doing our own little fantasy thing. Why do you think player housing is so popular in ESO?

I challenge your assertion that "that they are both combat oriented competitive activities".
No. Some of us just want to escape the overly competitive world that we live in.

I also challenge your assertion that "ZOS' current approach is the worst of both worlds".
Whatever the approach, it reportedly earned them USD200M per year for the past 10 years.
So, ZOS probably think they've got it right...

As a 'Morrowind refugee' I would be am arguing that most of the current problems are generated from MMO players coming to ESO from lesser games and insisting that ESO be changed to be 'more like' the game(s) that they just left.

Just play the game the way it is, instead of the endless moaning about literally everything.
Just cope with it. It's just a game. It's supposed to be fun.

does anybody remember laughter?

My problem is that they add content they don't adequately support.

They've not given a toot about the trial raiding community in ages, yet they keep adding trials. They keep pvp, while doing no balancing or adding new things.

If they won't support a feature, for the love of Joseph please just tell us.

BlueRaven

Stamicka wrote: »

I really disagree with this take. Lots of MMORPG veterans hate ESO's combat that's true. I'm the opposite, I can't stand tab target combat with cooldowns. I'm not gonna suggest WoW and related games to change for me, I'm just gonna play games with combat systems I like. Lots of people like the tab target cooldown style, lots of people like the ESO's action combat approach. Neither type of game needs to completely change their combat system to become like the other. The players just have to decide which one they prefer and play the game that suits them...

While I understand in general where you are going with this, the lack of tab targeting is not the issue with eso’s combat system.

fizzylu

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

The only reason for it is that mmo and meta oriented players don't shy away from organizing their own raid groups and communities in a way that they enjoy playing. That is much less likely to happen with play the way you want players, regardless of them being much bigger group overall.

I disagree. This is the only MMO I struggle with finding a chill guild like how I would want; to clarify.... one with people who take the game seriously, but not to the point of focusing on the meta and parsing like they're something to live and die by. Guilds as a feature seem to be struggling in ESO in general though, and as years have gone by I actually think the type of players I'd want to do endgame PvE with just aren't really around anymore (I know most I knew like that, about three small-medium sized guilds worth, quit entirely for another MMO or just play super off and on now).
I mean, seriously.... once upon a time, I was in multiple guilds that were more casual about their approach to endgame PvE. I joined them after receiving a simple invite after playing with some people just randomly. That never happens anymore. Only time I've experienced that in the last three years was after a BG for a PvP guild.

Either way, I'm fine with the situation since I manage to run with PUGs just fine at the end of the day and I simply choose to approach this game with mostly a solo mindset at this point (like most players, I'd even dare to say). But the discussion is about reasoning why the endgame in ESO is pretty niche (with me focusing on PvE in all my posts here).... and well, I gave my reasoning and view on the point. People can sit here and pick it apart if they want, but it doesn't change the fact that from where I've been sitting.... all I see in the guild finder are "hardcore PvE endgame" guilds with about info/descriptions alone that make my eyes roll to the back of my head and only three people I know still play this ever waning game remotely regularly. It's niche, and will probably continue to be so.

Oh, and shoutout to the endgame PvE guilds that won't even attempt to go with guildies through vet dungeons for specific achievements unless they pay for it.

alpha_synuclein

fizzylu wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

The only reason for it is that mmo and meta oriented players don't shy away from organizing their own raid groups and communities in a way that they enjoy playing. That is much less likely to happen with play the way you want players, regardless of them being much bigger group overall.

I disagree. This is the only MMO I struggle with finding a chill guild like how I would want; to clarify.... one with people who take the game seriously, but not to the point of focusing on the meta and parsing like they're something to live and die by. Guilds as a feature seem to be struggling in ESO in general though, and as years have gone by I actually think the type of players I'd want to do endgame PvE with just aren't really around anymore (I know most I knew like that, about three small-medium sized guilds worth, quit entirely for another MMO or just play super off and on now).
I mean, seriously.... once upon a time, I was in multiple guilds that were more casual about their approach to endgame PvE. I joined them after receiving a simple invite after playing with some people just randomly. That never happens anymore. Only time I've experienced that in the last three years was after a BG for a PvP guild.

Either way, I'm fine with the situation since I manage to run with PUGs just fine at the end of the day and I simply choose to approach this game with mostly a solo mindset at this point (like most players, I'd even dare to say). But the discussion is about reasoning why the endgame in ESO is pretty niche (with me focusing on PvE in all my posts here).... and well, I gave my reasoning and view on the point. People can sit here and pick it apart if they want, but it doesn't change the fact that from where I've been sitting.... all I see in the guild finder are "hardcore PvE endgame" guilds with about info/descriptions alone that make my eyes roll to the back of my head and only three people I know still play this ever waning game remotely regularly. It's niche, and will probably continue to be so.

Those are all fair points, but we're not exactly in disagreement here. I simply stated that meta oriented players and their guilds, despite being a minority, are the most visible because they are well organized. And more laid back players aren't for some reasons. I would like to know those reasons, because what you are describing you had in the past is exactly what we are in need of now.

Edit: the reason I quoted only part of your post was to refer to it more directly, not to pick apart your overall statement.

fizzylu

@alpha_synuclein
Yeah, I honestly think that crowd has just kind of died out over the years and/or became super casual+solo. I have been considering starting my own guild up again, but I'm a bit hesitant since my last one ended up being problematic and I'm going into it with even fewer hands than before since all of my irl friends quit except for one. But I would really like to revitalize my love for this game (it's there, just kind of faint) and being able to do vet content more regularly again.... in a Discord call, all having fun together, etc.... would definitely help in doing so.

alpha_synuclein

LaintalAy wrote: »

As a 'Morrowind refugee' I would be am arguing that most of the current problems are generated from MMO players coming to ESO from lesser games and insisting that ESO be changed to be 'more like' the game(s) that they just left.

Just play the game the way it is, instead of the endless moaning about literally everything.
Just cope with it. It's just a game. It's supposed to be fun.

does anybody remember laughter?

I was a "I want to play Morrowind with my partner" kind of player when I started. I never thought I would be interested in any kind of MMO, but ESO changed my mind. That could only be possible if a game has something for different crowd. It's ESOs power, not weakness.

Also, let's not forget that there is decent amount of people in this world that don't associate challenge and competitiveness with lack of fun. For some that IS the fun part. And considering stuff like DSR HM exist, there is a place for those in ESO as well.

alpha_synuclein

fizzylu wrote: »

Yeah, I honestly think that crowd has just kind of died out over the years and/or became super casual+solo. I have been considering starting my own guild up again, but I'm a bit hesitant since my last one ended up being problematic and I'm going into it with even fewer hands than before since all of my irl friends quit except for one. But I would really like to revitalize my love for this game (it's there, just kind of faint) and being able to do vet content more regularly again.... in a Discord call, all having fun together, etc.... would definitely help in doing so.

Oooof. Sorry to hear that.

katanagirl1

Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.

Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.

How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?

Amottica

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.

Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.

How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?

True. The more serious the group is the higher their requirements will be for obvious reasons. However, outside of the need of specific skills to help the group they will not care what gear or skills the player is using as long as the player can meet the damage requirement and stay alive.

That means the builds most players create will come short of the required DPS and most players will still come short of the damage required even if they use the best build.

We are talking about what amounts to the top 2 or 3% of the players and that is a liberal estimate. Lost raid groups will have lower requirements because their goals is less. If have spent hours tanking for “training groups” who’s damage is far from the top but eventually they get their clear.

Sakiri

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.

Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.

How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?

Just throwing it out there that I've cleared just about every base vet trial and a few hard modes without a meta group, as a HA oakensoul sorc. Also not meta.

If you're not into super hardcore sweaty trifectas and the like, sure, you can pretty much play what build you want with a few caveats.

If you don't know what you're doing, build and gear isn't going to help you at all. I can log in to someone else's meta arcanist with perfected everything and the top dps on the server, and I won't have two titmice worth of ideas on how to play it, and would probably get outdps'd by the healers. Gear and build aren't everything.

darvaria

Been playing 10 years but no trials for about the last 5. I absolutely would not feel comfortable joining any trial group. I have most monsters and almost every gear set and enough in game coin to gold up any gear sets. (except trials) Not sure where 2100 plus CP lands you in PVE groups. I don't think the healing rotation would be that difficult as a healer. Not sure about mechanics. I just got back from WOW Classic SOD and none of the raid mechanics were a problem. I raided all the way from Vanilla to WOTLk in WOW but nothing in ESO. I think I've done most dungeons in ESO on HM (except for newest ones). Haven't had problems with dungeon vet or hm mechanics but idk about trials. PVE guilds are so elitist I wouldn't even consider running a trial. I don't have the contact base that would make allowances for me to learn. I think it's really too late for me to start trials now. But you absolutely can NOT run trials (IMO) in just any gear and not be familiar with the mechanics. Seems you would have to have meta in gold, maybe with one or two purple items. And ALL consumes,

PVP is really easy for me but I tank up and run solo at Cyro. I don't BG anymore because I don't want to have to do a different no CP build/gear.

And I don't think ZOS is the problem. The problem is lack of gear and experience with new players. They give up before getting them. I watch new players at Cyro and it's cringe. I feel sorry for them. There are too many years now and new players would have to commit a fair number of hours learning. Unless they have a lot of carry over from other MMO's, which seems to help.

katanagirl1

Sakiri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.

Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.

How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?

Just throwing it out there that I've cleared just about every base vet trial and a few hard modes without a meta group, as a HA oakensoul sorc. Also not meta.

If you're not into super hardcore sweaty trifectas and the like, sure, you can pretty much play what build you want with a few caveats.

If you don't know what you're doing, build and gear isn't going to help you at all. I can log in to someone else's meta arcanist with perfected everything and the top dps on the server, and I won't have two titmice worth of ideas on how to play it, and would probably get outdps'd by the healers. Gear and build aren't everything.

Oakensorc will prevent you from joining our trials team because you can’t run Cloudrest. We have had a few subs run them but if they become permanent team members then they need to play something else.

alpha_synuclein

darvaria wrote: »

Been playing 10 years but no trials for about the last 5. I absolutely would not feel comfortable joining any trial group. I have most monsters and almost every gear set and enough in game coin to gold up any gear sets. (except trials) Not sure where 2100 plus CP lands you in PVE groups. I don't think the healing rotation would be that difficult as a healer. Not sure about mechanics. I just got back from WOW Classic SOD and none of the raid mechanics were a problem. I raided all the way from Vanilla to WOTLk in WOW but northing in ESO. I think I've done most dungeons in ESO on HM (except for newest ones). Haven't had problems with dungeon vet or hm mechanics but idk about trials. PVE guilds are so elitist I wouldn't even consider running a trial. I don't have the contact base that would make allowances for me to learn. I think it's really too late for me to start trials now. But you absolutely can NOT run trials (IMO) in just any gear and not be familiar with the mechanics. Seems you would have to have meta in gold, maybe with one or two purple items. And ALL consumes,

PVP is really easy for me but I tank up and run solo at Cyro. I don't BG anymore because I don't want to have to do a different no CP build/gear.

And I don't think ZOS is the problem. The problem is lack of gear and experience with new players. They give up before getting them. I watch new players at Cyro and it's cringe. I feel sorry for them. There are too many years now and new players would have to commit a fair number of hours learning. Unless they have a lot of carry over from other MMO's, which seems to help.

ESO has too much gear sets and it creates the impression that gear is much more important than it actually is. And some of the most powerful meta sets will work only if you're reasonably skilled at combat. Relequen is a good example. Equipping it gives you nothing if you cannot keep stacks consistently. The only "gear to win" item we currently have is Oakensoul.

And as long as you're know what you're doing and not aiming at trial trifecta groups from the start, you can do trials in purple gear. Having the right traits is much more important.

As for the everlasting elitist argument.....Yes, meta oriented guilds play meta. But there is bunch of social guilds that run trials as well and those would have you.

Sakiri

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.

Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.

How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?

Just throwing it out there that I've cleared just about every base vet trial and a few hard modes without a meta group, as a HA oakensoul sorc. Also not meta.

If you're not into super hardcore sweaty trifectas and the like, sure, you can pretty much play what build you want with a few caveats.

If you don't know what you're doing, build and gear isn't going to help you at all. I can log in to someone else's meta arcanist with perfected everything and the top dps on the server, and I won't have two titmice worth of ideas on how to play it, and would probably get outdps'd by the healers. Gear and build aren't everything.

Oakensorc will prevent you from joining our trials team because you can’t run Cloudrest. We have had a few subs run them but if they become permanent team members then they need to play something else.

You can run an oakensoul sorc, you just can't run half a trial group of them.

I've never been picked for the bar swap mechanic with the ring on and I got my vCR+1 with it on.

That said, I'd probably take another character if I was doing vCR+2 or +3.

ceruulean

Lol vet trials are pretty easy with group finder. You don't need meta gear to complete them. Average guildless players, with janky gear sets who deal 0 DMG, just throw up groups finder, bang their heads against the wall for several hours, until they get a competent PUG team to carry them/clear vDSR.

The hard part about endgame HM trials is farming the gear and getting the right classes. It is pretty ridiculous the amount of support sets that exist, and it really puts newbies behind the curve when they have to farm a lot. I don't even care what sets people bring, but other people moan and care more than I do, lol. And it's nearly impossible to recruit non-arcanist classes for their class buffs, because everyone just wants to play arcanist. Which seems to indicate that ESO combat with traditional classes is very difficult

alpha_synuclein

Sakiri wrote: »

You can run an oakensoul sorc, you just can't run half a trial group of them.

I've never been picked for the bar swap mechanic with the ring on and I got my vCR+1 with it on.

That said, I'd probably take another character if I was doing vCR+2 or +3.

If I remember correctly (and in case I don't please correct me ) they rework it in a way that you cannot get the mechanic when you're wearing Oaken anymore. But the frequency of it happening stayed the same. So wearing the ring won't affect you, but it will increase the chance for your team members to get the mechanic.

sarahthes

Sakiri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.

Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.

How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?

Just throwing it out there that I've cleared just about every base vet trial and a few hard modes without a meta group, as a HA oakensoul sorc. Also not meta.

If you're not into super hardcore sweaty trifectas and the like, sure, you can pretty much play what build you want with a few caveats.

If you don't know what you're doing, build and gear isn't going to help you at all. I can log in to someone else's meta arcanist with perfected everything and the top dps on the server, and I won't have two titmice worth of ideas on how to play it, and would probably get outdps'd by the healers. Gear and build aren't everything.

Oakensorc will prevent you from joining our trials team because you can’t run Cloudrest. We have had a few subs run them but if they become permanent team members then they need to play something else.

You can run an oakensoul sorc, you just can't run half a trial group of them.

I've never been picked for the bar swap mechanic with the ring on and I got my vCR+1 with it on.

That said, I'd probably take another character if I was doing vCR+2 or +3.

It selfishly pushes the mechanic on to the rest of your group, making it harder for everyone else while you just coast along. BUT if someone dies with the mechanic it can jump to you with no way of mitigating it.

katanagirl1

Also you have to consider the goal of running the trial. If you just want a clear, then running meta is not required but will make it easier.

If you want to score push, then running meta will probably be required.

I just don’t like the terms “elitist” or “gatekeeping”. It implies the leads are being exclusive for no reason. Some people might do that, but generally most people who take the time to set up and run a trial just want to ensure success for the group. Your actions affect 11 other people during that time frame.

Our trial group started from zero about 1.5 years ago. We farmed our nonperfected gear, ran Craglorn trials hard mode, then did vmolhm. We are now doing vdsr for our perfected gear. We’ve gotten much better in that time and learned to work together. Even then, it has not been easy. If I had to pug these trials, I probably would have quit long ago. It is so much harder with randoms.

darvaria

Do guilds in eso trials use Parses and Logs?

Amottica

darvaria wrote: »

Do guilds in eso trials use Parses and Logs?

@darvaria

Some do. The more serious the guild and/or group is with raiding, the more serious they will be about the requirements for participating. For PC, the more serious groups can require members not to run anonymously in the logs even though it is not hard to figure out who is anonymous. On PC logging cannot be avoided. More casual guilds may still use the ESO logs, but their requirements are lower.

Requiring parses and logging is still a good idea outside even if the group is not highly competitive. It helps leadership and players improve their playing.

Amottica

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Also you have to consider the goal of running the trial. If you just want a clear, then running meta is not required but will make it easier.

If you want to score push, then running meta will probably be required.

I just don’t like the terms “elitist” or “gatekeeping”. It implies the leads are being exclusive for no reason. Some people might do that, but generally most people who take the time to set up and run a trial just want to ensure success for the group. Your actions affect 11 other people during that time frame.

Our trial group started from zero about 1.5 years ago. We farmed our nonperfected gear, ran Craglorn trials hard mode, then did vmolhm. We are now doing vdsr for our perfected gear. We’ve gotten much better in that time and learned to work together. Even then, it has not been easy. If I had to pug these trials, I probably would have quit long ago. It is so much harder with randoms.

Another great point.

Without a vision from leadership and guidance to make that vision a reality, the guild or guild will fall into disarray and lack value for the membership regardless of the type of guild it is.

This includes standards for tanking, healing, and damage dealers for raid guilds and groups. This is relevant for any level guild. I am in a casual guild as well as more serious raiding guilds. A while back, the guild leaders in the casual guild did not have any standards for those who ran in the vet raids. As such, the group failed time and time again while trying to clear vet raids, including vAA. Three of us were doing 75+% of the total damage. It was sad.

We convinced the leader that we were wasting time unless we developed a requirement. Standards were set, and we started making progress. Most of the same people were able to continue raiding.

So yeah, it is not being elitist or gatekeeping. It is smart leadership.

Sakiri

sarahthes wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Seems like some here are arguing that you can play off meta aka “play how you want” for everything but I have to disagree.

Yes, you can run nHRC naked and do fine but later dlc trials require everyone to run the meta so everyone is pulling their own weight. Pugging is one thing I guess, but in a vet hm prog group the conditions of you participating is that you will run the meta. Parses on the trial dummy are required so that the lead knows you are hitting adequate dps and are wearing the right gear and using the right skills. Even then it takes months to finally get through the content.

How would it be okay for a team member to just wear or slot whatever and cause more wipes and failures for the group?

Just throwing it out there that I've cleared just about every base vet trial and a few hard modes without a meta group, as a HA oakensoul sorc. Also not meta.

If you're not into super hardcore sweaty trifectas and the like, sure, you can pretty much play what build you want with a few caveats.

If you don't know what you're doing, build and gear isn't going to help you at all. I can log in to someone else's meta arcanist with perfected everything and the top dps on the server, and I won't have two titmice worth of ideas on how to play it, and would probably get outdps'd by the healers. Gear and build aren't everything.

Oakensorc will prevent you from joining our trials team because you can’t run Cloudrest. We have had a few subs run them but if they become permanent team members then they need to play something else.

You can run an oakensoul sorc, you just can't run half a trial group of them.

I've never been picked for the bar swap mechanic with the ring on and I got my vCR+1 with it on.

That said, I'd probably take another character if I was doing vCR+2 or +3.

It selfishly pushes the mechanic on to the rest of your group, making it harder for everyone else while you just coast along. BUT if someone dies with the mechanic it can jump to you with no way of mitigating it.

I've also done it on a 2bar build and never gotten the mechanic. That part is completely rng.

I have yet to be in a group though that has refused to take a sole oaken player though, "selfish" or not. I just don't run with that crowd. And I'd rather take the oaken than a guy that dies half a dozen times to it, then when asked about it says "what's a bar swap?". That is the reason they first started taking me actually lol.

But anyway...

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Also you have to consider the goal of running the trial. If you just want a clear, then running meta is not required but will make it easier.

If you want to score push, then running meta will probably be required.

I just don’t like the terms “elitist” or “gatekeeping”. It implies the leads are being exclusive for no reason. Some people might do that, but generally most people who take the time to set up and run a trial just want to ensure success for the group. Your actions affect 11 other people during that time frame.

Our trial group started from zero about 1.5 years ago. We farmed our nonperfected gear, ran Craglorn trials hard mode, then did vmolhm. We are now doing vdsr for our perfected gear. We’ve gotten much better in that time and learned to work together. Even then, it has not been easy. If I had to pug these trials, I probably would have quit long ago. It is so much harder with randoms.

Funnily enough, I just joined a core for this zero to hero idea myself. I even went out of my way to haul ass and learn MK stamsorc for the group. Raid lead wants me on oaken. I offered to take my magplar. Nope, wants my oakensorc. ><