The Real Reason PvP and End Game PvE are so Niche

Gabriel_H

sarahthes wrote: »

PIllar of Nirn is from DLC that has to be purchased, and is separate from the most current DLC.

Briarheart is from DLC that has to be purchased, and is separate from the most current DLC. You can buy it, it's tradeable, but its a lot harder to find these days as the content isnt new/relevant and the gear isnt worth as much (so fewer people are selling it).

Dreadsail is located in DLC that has to be purchased, and is separate from the most current DLC.

I'm not talking about difficulty gating things. I'm taking about having to spend money on old content to clear new content, as someone new to the game.

Ok, so lets ignore anything that is DLC?

So that's the base game. What's the issue? Craft/farm some sets and get to farming nSO, nAA and nHRC for trial sets. I recommend Hundings and Night Mother's gaze.

FYI: Those two sets compared to say the latest uber trail and dlc sets are only slightly worse for damage. Same applies to tanking or healing gear. While there is better gear available, that isn't the problem for harder (later) content found in DLCs - that comes down to the number of CP points, as I alluded to earlier. They can be farmed as well.

No money is required. Only work to understand the game and it's mechanics.

darvaria

Yeah I'm sick of all the gear. They should go back to the first basic gear. Get rid of all the proc gear.

I never bring new players here. A few wow players tried it with me and gave up immediately. Most WOW players don't stick here because of the 3 faction. If we just had BGs that were 10v10 or 15v15. BG's now consist of the same 25-30 players. The "regulars" only attack the players dropping in for daily. I've stood by and watched as they let certain players just walk by. Plus with the no CP, you need a completely different set than to go to Cyro. But I NEVER go anymore so what does it matter? But don't expect to pick up WOW drop outs (which is a lot of players) with this 3 sided BG's. Why in the hell did you decide to have 3 sides in BG's

OP: Great post.

Stamicka

Elyu wrote: »

Good stuff.

My 2 cents:

Rewards are SO important. However there are 2 major problems in ESO regrading this:
1: The absurd quantity of crown store / crown crate / event cosmetics (including mounts, skins and personalities), one estimate I saw placed the number of in-game rewards at 5% of the total (and that was including event rewards) thereby leaving the actual total of rewards for difficult activities at less than 5% of total cosmetics available in-game.
2: Carry-runs. If there is less than 5% of the total cosmetic rewards available from challenging in-game content, but you can buy access to most of those from other players, that leaves only the solo arena rewards as being the only "meaningful" reward left in game.

I completely agree with your point about the crown store. It's presence in the game keeps growing and growing,. I never thought we would be at the point of having purchaseable custom animations, but here we are. A lot of crown store items would have made great rewards for completing content.

The ability to buy achievements from others is a bit more complicated. People in the end game community tend to know who bought achievements and who didn't. I don't think this has a big impact on how meaningful trial completions are. In some ways, being able to sell carry runs is a reward itself since it often requires players to complete 4 man content as a group of 3 or 12 man content as a group of 11. It's a good way for end game players to make money if they have completely mastered a piece of content.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

While the OP has some valid points, the overall message appears to be: Hand me things on a plate. No MMO works like that.
I would also add, there has always been a learning curve in Elder Scrolls games, it's one of the things lots of people love about them.

This is so very far from what I am saying in this post. A low barrier to entry is much different than handing things to players on a plate. Look at some of the top streamed competitive games on Twitch. If you play one of them for yourself, you'll notice that it's easy to get into a match and have fun by playing the game at a basic level. At the same time, there's a huge difference between new players and top 500 players within these games. There's an extremely long road ahead for any new player that wants to take one of these games seriously, however, the most important thing is that they can at least get their foot in the door to try. The goal isn't to hand anything on a plate, it is to get players in the content with as much ease as possible.

Gabriel_H

Stamicka wrote: »

This is so very far from what I am saying in this post. A low barrier to entry is much different than handing things to players on a plate.

The game does have a low barrier to entry as I have pointed out several times.

You can easily farm gear and 160CP to take on any normal dungeon, and the base game vet content, and any normal trials in chapters.

At 300CP you can take on vDLC dungeons. At 800CP you can take on vet non-base game trials. At 1400CP (out of 3600CP) you can take on anything.

Not quite sure what you find about that to be a "high" barrier.

Soarora

Cooperharley wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Bring back character-based achievements (as an option if it isn't feasible/desirable to drop account-wide achievements altogether) and training guilds will return. Veteran players who had always used alts to lead newer players through dungeons etc warned they wouldn't bother to do so if account-wide achievements were introduced in a way that meant their alts got nothing for completing the runs and so it has turned out.

On rewards, I'm not sure that "decent" amounts of gold are the answer, given that most endgame players probably already have "indecent" amounts of gold just sitting in the bank.

My man will find every instance possible to try to get character achievements back, good lord. The issue with end game has nothing to do with character achievements dude, it’s reward structure, barrier to entry, etc as OP stated.

Most rewards that people want are generally cosmetic in nature - so, you’re right about that for sure.

No, I think Tandor is right. It’s true that people have no incentive now to replay content on other builds except for personal recordkeeping, which now has to be done manually. The effect of AWA on trial endgame isn’t so clear because U35 also drove many players off but the effect of AWA on dungeon endgame is shockingly obvious. I still see a couple people here and there who have tris running tris again, but it’s nowhere near the level of activity I used to see. This beloved guild I’m in once had people looking for challenger and trifecta runs all the time, multiple people recruiting at once, now this activity only happens during mask farm times or when someone new and active joins the guild and even then its nowhere near the same level of activity as before. This could be chalked up to guild management changes but I think its no coincidence that this change happened at the same time as AWA. Simply said, AWA removed the biggest reward of re-running trifectas. HMs can be run for motifs but trifectas are now only achievable once. I keep count of all mine in a document and it just doesn’t feel the same anymore.

I have a friend who’s an even better example of this. They wanted to get every dungeon trifecta on every role but with AWA that dream was crushed and they don’t even try to do tris anymore, let alone on each role.

Shagreth

Best post I've seen in a while, thanks for this. I have my own reasons for staying away from the endgame, mostly having to do with how bored I am of my main (class change token would help here) and the general lack of skill diversity when it comes to endgame builds. Find me one endgame build without dawnbreaker, trap etc. I'll wait. Seeing how scribing is mostly about utility, I don't see it helping much in that department either.

Last but not least (and IMO arguably the biggest problem ESO has) is the lack of rewards, but thank god we have the store and crates to get our cosmetics from, right?

Gabriel_H

Shagreth wrote: »

Last but not least (and IMO arguably the biggest problem ESO has) is the lack of rewards, but thank god we have the store and crates to get our cosmetics from, right?

Lots of rewards, skins, mounts, cosmetics, costumes in end-game.

Waylander07

Stamicka wrote: »

I've seen a few posts recently about why PvP is niche as well as posts about why trials are unwelcoming to new players. I think both of these things are related and I wanted to make a post about my thoughts on the situation.The thing that PvP and end game PvE have in common is that they are both combat oriented competitive activities. I also see a big divide within ESO's playerbase between casual and competitive players. While such a divide is hard for a game developer to deal with, I think ZOS' current approach is the worst of both worlds and in the end, players near both ends of the spectrum are unhappy with the game.

The words casual and competitive don't come close to describing the broad range of players that play ESO, so I'll do my best to make some distinctions. I acknowledge that there are players who aren't competitive at all and no matter what, PvP and end game PvE will not appeal to them. However, there are also casual players who are willing to try PvP and end game PvE and are discouraged or are otherwise unable to get into them for various reasons. At the other end of the spectrum, there are players who treat ESO as a competitive game and those that come from other competitive games and realize ESO isn't cut out for competitive gameplay. ZOS' current approach simultaneously keeps casual players from entering more competitive play, discourages current competitive players from continuing to play, and keeps existing competitive players from playing ESO to begin with. Let's look at how.

I think that there are 4 main things that competitive players look for in a game and all successful competitive games have these things. These are:

1. Community
Community has many aspects, but it mainly involves having other people near the same skill level to play with and against. In other words, are there enough players playing and engaging with the game? Is there a healthy stream of new players? Is there discussion and ways for players to get involved outside of the game (this would include Twitch and Youtube communities).

2. Skill Expression
Skill expression is about whether or not the players actions and time spent on the game change the outcome of the game. Does playing the game more allow a player to improve? Can players feel or see their skills improve? Is whether or not a player succeeds a matter of skill?

3. Low Barriers to Entry
Low barriers to entry is about whether or not new or returning players can get back into the game or an activity within the game with relative ease. Is there a lot of knowledge needed before a player is able to play effectively? Are there many hurdles or grinds that a player must overcome before they can get their foot in the door?

4. Reward
Reward is about what the player gets for playing and doing well at the game. Reward can be in the form of in game exclusive items, but it can also be in the form of recognition. This aspect is tied to skill expression as well because players should feel rewarded for building their skills, whether its beating a score or another player.

By looking at competitive games in this way, we see that ESO's competitive activities are not very competitive at all. In every single listed aspect, ESO fails.

Community in ESO
The end game community in ESO has drastically dwindled and this is evident wherever you look. There's less PvP and PvE activity for ESO on Twitch and Youtube. PvP campaigns hold less people than they ever have and on many servers, they do not fill up for most of the day if they fill at all. Competitive players who group queue in Battlegrounds will have to wait for long periods of time just to find a match (evidence for bad skill distribution among players in PvP). There's less activity on PvE trial leaderboards and only one or two teams completely dominates every single trial in most cases. For those apart of large ESO discord servers, those are much quieter now as well.

Out of the 4 aspects listed, Community is one of the most dangerous ones to lack. When community declines, competitive players lose friends and people to compete against. This causes a cyclical mass exodus of players. Eventually, a mass exodus of players makes it harder for new players to get their foot in the door. There will be fewer experienced players to teach the new ones and cliques will form in the more experienced players that are left which can create a very exclusive and unwelcoming environment for new players.

Skill Expression in ESO
Skill plays a minor role in ESO and ZOS has explicitly stated that it wants to close the skill gap. There have been constant changes to the core mechanics that many players have become familiar with. Light attack weaving, animation canceling, how blocking and barswapping function, projectile travel times, and many more aspects of the game have been changed in an attempt to shrink the skill gap. Additionally, the addition of unbalanced sets and mythics decreases the role of skill by making builds more important. In ESO, it is not always true that the more skilled player wins nor is it even true that a player can always see their skills improve. In many cases, players don't know whether their build or their skill is the issue.

ESO's skill expression issue also affects all of the types of players I listed above. Newer and more casual players will have a hard time identifying areas of improvement or even seeing their improvement since the build they are in plays a bigger role than the skill that they have. Existing competitive players don't like feeling like their time spent building skills was a waste. This is especially true if they learned to master something like bash or light attack weaving only to see it nerfed. Other players from competitive games won't even be interested in trying ESO because they will see that it is not an environment that rewards skill and time spent.

Barriers to Entry in ESO
The ideal competitive game would have low barriers to entry. The barriers to entry in ESO are very high. There are a lot of moving parts to ESO's barrier to entry issue. One barrier to entry is of course is level/CP. I think level differences are to be expected in MMORPGs and ESO at least provides a No CP option for PvP. Low level in PvE is also an issue for the highest end of PvE content, but there is still veteran content that can be completed by lower CP players. The level barrier is more minor compared to ESO's other big barriers. Perhaps ESO's biggest barrier to entry is the knowledge required to even get your foot in the door in PvP and in PvE trials. This is mainly in the form of knowing how to build a character. There are 100s of sets in ESO. Many of the sets are completely useless and they even gimp and trap inexperienced players without them even knowing. Some choice is a good thing, too much choice is a bad thing. A lot of knowledge is needed to make an effective build on your own and sort through the useless sets. The game also does not do a good job of teaching the important core mechanics such as blocking, breaking free, light weaving, and rolling at the right time. One big reason for this is that the difficulty difference between Normal vs Veteran and Veteran vs Veteran HM is far too vast. In normal and overland content players will not understand the importance of block, roll, and break free because there is no reason to do so. While information about these mechanics can be found within the game, I still don't think the information is easy to come across nor is the importance emphasized. Lastly, once a player figures out how to build a character, there are often many things that must be completed to obtain the sets. I think ZOS has done a good job with making sets easier to obtain for PvE, but many good PvP sets require a PvE grind. There's also the problem of mythics which sometimes requires tedious and time consuming lead grinding.

All and all, once again, all types of potential players are negatively affected by ESO's high barrier to entry. The grind may discourage potential first time players as well as returning players from even trying PvP or PvE to see if they like it. This keeps the communities small.

Reward in ESO
This post is already becoming quite long so I will keep this part short. Reward in ESO has been discussed many times on this forum. The game simply isn't very rewarding and rewards definitely don't seem to scale with the difficulty of an achievement. In PvP, AP isn't all that useful, many of the sets from rewards of the worthy aren't all that useful, and other reward types have lost their value (such as Alliance Rank) due to ZOS' actions. In PvE, leaderboards are often broken, there's not much built in recognition for high achieving players within the game, and the in game rewards for difficult achievements can also be lackluster.

If the rewards aren't good, fewer people will be interested in even getting their foot in the door (there's no reason to). Competitive players won't feel like difficult achievements are worth achieving. In many cases, the exclusivity of a difficult achievement is a reward, but this loses value with power creeps and content nerfs. In the end, bad reward structure leads to less participation and activity from all types of players.

ZOS' Approach
ESO is lacking in all 4 of the outlined areas, and each area impacts most types of existing players and all types of potential players. I think ESO realizes some of these issues within the game and they have made efforts to address it. Unfortunately, I think the developers attempts to fix these issues end up worsening each outlined aspect in every way, further making every type of player unhappy. There are many examples of ZOS using the approach I am about to discuss, but I want to focus on 2 of the most notorious examples: procs and Oakensoul.

Procs
Proc sets have been an issue in ESO for many years now. Since PvP is an environment where lining up burst is essential to being successful, I think the introduction of proc sets was a way to shrink the gap between experienced players and newer players. Using sets, items, or nerfing mechanics is a consistent theme in ZOS' approach to fix ESO's issues, but every time this sort of approach only ends up upsetting every type of player. While it is true that proc sets can allow less experienced players to kill more experienced players, the end result is that every player will still be unhappy. At the start of the first procalypse, the sets were hard to obtain (barrier to entry issue). Viper was the most effective proc and it could only be obtained through trials or by paying millions of gold. Eventually proc sets could be obtained through dungeons or arenas, but this can still be a barrier for new players. Proc sets also negatively impact both skill expression and reward since using these sets can overshadow skill differences and getting kills may feel less rewarding. Lastly, community is negatively impacted since many players become frustrated with proc metas and quit the game. If we look at procs by types of players, newer players may be unable to even obtain these sets. Newer players that can obtain these sets may have trouble identifying areas where they need to improve since proc sets do some of the work for the player. Additionally, competitive players using proc sets can more effectively use them, creating a very poor experience for the newer players. Competitive players who don't use proc sets will be at a disadvantage against those that do and may either quit or adapt to the meta. In the end everyone is wearing proc sets, new players either can't obtain these sets or die more easily than ever. Competitive players get upset with the lack of skill expression or feeling of reward for getting kills. Potential players will see that ESO does not have a healthy PvP environment. the end result is that everybody lost and PvP is worse for it. This is the type of approach that ZOS should absolutely AVOID for addressing these issues.

Oakensoul
Oakensoul is a more recent attempt to fix some of ESO's issues, but in many ways it suffered from a few of the same issues as procs. Oakensoul itself had a barrier to entry issue since it is a mythic that required annoying leads and it was locked behind a chapter's paywall. While it made PvE easier for some, it was eventually nerfed, leaving some of those players alienated and discouraged from PvEing again because the mythic didn't do anything to help those players build needed skills. In PvP, Oakensoul had a similar effect to procs, where it helped some players get kills more easily, but ultimately more experienced players utilized the mythic better. In the end, all types of players were left unhappy. Once again, the approach used was to introduce a skill gap shrinking item to fix issues which never works.

Conclusion/Solution
In order for both PvP and end game PvE to grow and succeed, Community, Skill Expression, Barriers to Entry, and Reward need to be kept in mind. It is time to stop introducing new item sets or nerfing core mechanics since this approach ends up upsetting every type of player as outlined. Instead, Skill Expression should be embraced, barriers to entry need to be lowered, rewards need to be increased, and communities should be free to grow and not alienated. Additionally, the knowledge gap should be addressed by either reducing the number of sets, or adding more opportunities for players to learn core mechanics throughout their time playing. With the current approach of introducing item set bandaids or nerfing players to be on the same level, the number of players engaging in these activities will continue to decline. A more involved and complete approach is needed, otherwise these activities will remain niche or die out.

Great post,
The biggest thing for me is the ball groups and when they start appearing to the point that they are mostly the only fights that are available i leave. Another thing is that your gear set up is more important than your skill level which is not something that i like. With the wrong set up no matter your skill level you will struggle to kill anyone in pvp because of a lack of damage which means a lot of grind and learning about what works which makes it hard for new and casual players.

Soarora

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

Last but not least (and IMO arguably the biggest problem ESO has) is the lack of rewards, but thank god we have the store and crates to get our cosmetics from, right?

Lots of rewards, skins, mounts, cosmetics, costumes in end-game.

Here’s what I remember from PvE endgame (what I remember is important, because you’re not going to work for or acknowledge what you don’t know exists)…

Skins: (12)
One from vet completion of BRP
One from vet completion of BS
One from vet completion of KA
One from vet completion of MoL
One from vet completion of SS
One from FH challenger
One from MHK challenger
One from SCP challenger
One from RoM challenger
One from HM(?) completion of AS
One from HM completion of CR
One from ??? Vet? HM? Completion of HoF

Mounts: (4)
One from Godslayer
One from Swashbuckler
One from Mindmender
One from Planesbreaker

Body & Face Markings: (3)
One from vet/HM DSR
One from vet/HM RG
One from vet/HM SE

Personalities: (2)
One from FL challenger
One from MoS challenger

Costumes: (0)

Momentos: (???)
There’s a few, but only one has meaning— the Dawnbringer momento. All the rest are vet completion or normal completion or even just on entry.

Hats: (???)
Like momentos, some are on entry. There is the BRF challenger hat though!

Furnishings: (3)
One from KA HM
One from Yoln HM
One from Lokke HM

Polymorph: (1)
Rare drop from AS+2, worse version than the crown store version of the polymorph as it does not have the crown store version’s unique animations.

Looking at this makes it seem like a fair bit of rewards until you look into the actual timeframe. Traditionally, we got a skin with each trial. Now we don’t, replaced by body/face markings that often get hidden by armor and generally do not have the same feeling as a skin. There’s only 2 personalities and 3 furnishings. Most dungeon challengers have no reward except like 5 achievement points. Dungeon tris only give a title. Not every trial tri has a mount. Now compare that to the total amount of cosmetics in the game.

dk_dunkirk

Stamicka wrote: »

Skill plays a minor role in ESO...

It is time to stop introducing new item sets or nerfing core mechanics since this approach ends up upsetting every type of player as outlined. Instead, Skill Expression should be embraced, barriers to entry need to be lowered, rewards need to be increased, and communities should be free to grow and not alienated. Additionally, the knowledge gap should be addressed by either reducing the number of sets, or adding more opportunities for players to learn core mechanics throughout their time playing. With the current approach of introducing item set bandaids or nerfing players to be on the same level, the number of players engaging in these activities will continue to decline. A more involved and complete approach is needed, otherwise these activities will remain niche or die out.

I couldn't disagree that skill plays a "minor role" in ESO any harder, but I 100% agree with the conclusion.

The Oakensoul has been a terrific success at allowing a whole new layer of people to play end game content. I think we all agree that's a good thing. But its very success highlights the vast skill difference between people who can play the game like a DDR game, and those who can't. I think the combat in this game basically resembles Crypt of the Necrodancer. You have to do everything on a beat, and there are people for whom this comes naturally, and people for whom it doesn't.

In PVP, to be competitive, you not only have to have the CP, skills, and gear all leveled up and optimized, AND all the timing perfected to be able to parse something like 120K+, but then you ALSO be able to think on your feet and improvise. It's an impressive collection of time, practice, and skill. And even for people who play PVP, the top 10-20% of the people in the instance are running the show. The skill difference between even great PVE players (who stay away from PVP) and great PVP players is ridiculous. The people who can truly master all of this are the 1% of the 1% of this game's player base.

I've had MANY people try to make me feel bad that I can't do great DPS -- saying that anyone who "tries" can do 90K+ -- but the state of the game and posts like this make it clear that -- whether you personally think it's hard or not -- the number of people who are good at it is relatively small compared to the number of active players. The ones who can't do 70K+ wind up playing support roles.

It seems to me that as long as ZOS keeps introducing new skills, new gear, and new systems (spell crafting), the ability to master everything about the combat in this game ALL AT ONCE is going to keep INCREASING the skill disparity in the player base, and make the PVP situation worse. But when I've (in times past) suggested that ZOS remove a bunch of the relatively unused sets and clear the decks, people came out of the woodwork defend their favorite niche set that I used as examples of sets I NEVER hear of anyone using.

Sync01

Good post, you've nailed some things.

The root cause of many of the issues as I see it is that they're trying to sell an mmo as a single player game.
On one hand you have players who get into the game expecting an mmo and understanding that this type of game requires a lot of time and effort to be able to raid in.
On the other hand you have players who are expecting a single player game with some added multiplayer and then get frustrated because single player games don't have parts that require you to spend thousands of hours on raiding - or to you know, play with a group of other players while doing so.

Add to that the "play as you want" phrase and you have a recipe for disaster when those players try to join the raiding/trial community and realize they don't have the skill for it. Some players will of course put down the time and effort required to reach that skill level, but enough players won't and still think they should be able to "access all content" that it creates an issue.

Lance_Caugheyb14_ESO

Sync01 wrote: »

Good post, you've nailed some things.

The root cause of many of the issues as I see it is that they're trying to sell an mmo as a single player game.
On one hand you have players who get into the game expecting an mmo and understanding that this type of game requires a lot of time and effort to be able to raid in.
On the other hand you have players who are expecting a single player game with some added multiplayer and then get frustrated because single player games don't have parts that require you to spend thousands of hours on raiding - or to you know, play with a group of other players while doing so.

Add to that the "play as you want" phrase and you have a recipe for disaster when those players try to join the raiding/trial community and realize they don't have the skill for it. Some players will of course put down the time and effort required to reach that skill level, but enough players won't and still think they should be able to "access all content" that it creates an issue.

I feel like the normal / veteran split should cover this issue. I think any random person should be able to play normal content, see everything in the game, and experience all the stories. The veteran content should be the place for MMO enthusiasts who want a serious challenge.

Sync01

Lance_Caugheyb14_ESO wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

Good post, you've nailed some things.

The root cause of many of the issues as I see it is that they're trying to sell an mmo as a single player game.
On one hand you have players who get into the game expecting an mmo and understanding that this type of game requires a lot of time and effort to be able to raid in.
On the other hand you have players who are expecting a single player game with some added multiplayer and then get frustrated because single player games don't have parts that require you to spend thousands of hours on raiding - or to you know, play with a group of other players while doing so.

Add to that the "play as you want" phrase and you have a recipe for disaster when those players try to join the raiding/trial community and realize they don't have the skill for it. Some players will of course put down the time and effort required to reach that skill level, but enough players won't and still think they should be able to "access all content" that it creates an issue.

I feel like the normal / veteran split should cover this issue. I think any random person should be able to play normal content, see everything in the game, and experience all the stories. The veteran content should be the place for MMO enthusiasts who want a serious challenge.

How does that cover the issue? The issue is that ESO is marketed as something it isn't, and that creates issues for and with players who expect something they're not getting.

Lance_Caugheyb14_ESO

Sync01 wrote: »

How does that cover the issue? The issue is that ESO is marketed as something it isn't, and that creates issues for and with players who expect something they're not getting.

Because normal content should be built so that players who don't want a hardcore MMO experience can complete it without spending thousands of hours, while giving MMO veterans and hardcore raiders something shiny and special to run vet content for that players seeking a "single player"ish experience won't care much about missing out on.

Honestly if something like TCC was base game, and players could search guild stores (even if they still had to physically move to the store to purchase items), you could almost complete all normal content and do things like crafting and housing with just yourself and a companion.

Sync01

Lance_Caugheyb14_ESO wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

How does that cover the issue? The issue is that ESO is marketed as something it isn't, and that creates issues for and with players who expect something they're not getting.

Because normal content should be built so that players who don't want a hardcore MMO experience can complete it without spending thousands of hours, while giving MMO veterans and hardcore raiders something shiny and special to run vet content for that players seeking a "single player"ish experience won't care much about missing out on.

Honestly if something like TCC was base game, and players could search guild stores (even if they still had to physically move to the store to purchase items), you could almost complete all normal content and do things like crafting and housing with just yourself and a companion.

The normal content is already available for anyone who isn't a "hardcore raider", as long as they have some understanding of the game. The issue is that it's group content and players need to find 11 others to do it with. Pretty much any social guild is capable of running a normal trial.

In my experience, almost all players who complain about gatekeeping or not being able to do trials are trying to do vet & hm trials, and occasionally trifectas, without the effort required. The issue is not if the game provides an alternative to the harder content or not, but that certain players expect to be able to do all of it, including all pvp achievements as if ESO was a single player game.

Better question is why should you have a "complete single player experience" in an mmo?

Lance_Caugheyb14_ESO

Sync01 wrote: »

Better question is why should you have a "complete single player experience" in an mmo?

I'm not saying you SHOULD, I'm saying that ESO COULD (and in many ways already does) provide a really satisfying single player experience. I run my daily dungeon and battleground through the activity finder, and only a handful of times have I had a truly bad experience.

With a companion, you can do a lot of public dungeons and delves, as well as a majority of overland content. With a few plugins to facilitate trading and gathering, you can do crafting and housing solo, and with the activity tab you can do practically all normal dungeon content and PVP to varying levels of success.

The game is already very good at providing a "complete single player experience" in an mmo, and I think that should be encouraged for the people who love it.

Rkindaleft

Tandor wrote: »

Bring back character-based achievements (as an option if it isn't feasible/desirable to drop account-wide achievements altogether) and training guilds will return. Veteran players who had always used alts to lead newer players through dungeons etc warned they wouldn't bother to do so if account-wide achievements were introduced in a way that meant their alts got nothing for completing the runs and so it has turned out.

I’m in agreement with this. I am someone who doesn’t actually mind AwA too much - but I’m also mostly interested in running trifectas and there was actually a reason 2-3 years ago to do a progression of Godslayer or Dawnbringer (or any trifecta really) more than once in order to get the title on multiple toons. That was something that a lot of people in the endgame community liked to do, partly because it showed you were able to complete the content on multiple classes/roles.

Also, fantastic post OP.

Sakiri

sarahthes wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

The difference between a casual player and a hardmode player: The latter is willing to put in the work to understand not only a dungeon or trial mechanics, but also the underlying game mechanics. Of when penetration is better than crit, or when to switch at the cap, or to understand how the various passives play into block mitigation, or when to dodge instead of block, or how group dynamics between roles work etc etc etc.

This is not something unique to ESO/ZOS, it's how all big MMOs operate. If you want to do the harder content you need to put in the effort outside of just clicking a few buttons. The game is designed (i'd argue more by circumstance than design) that earlier release dungeons and trials are easier than later ones. This is due to the power creep that has come in due to the CP system.

An example of this: running vHRC at 160CP requires a lot more work than it does at 1600CP. Running vDSR at 160CP is just not viable in terms of comparative damage or mitigation or healing, nor should it be. Newer non-overland content is designed to be harder to address the issue of not only power creep, but also keeping older players engaged.

Older PvE guilds have long moved on from Craglorn. While this means that they won't be looking to take on new players, there are plenty of new players to be able to create their own guilds, to learn together, to progress together - but again this requires the player to put in the effort.

While the OP has some valid points, the overall message appears to be: Hand me things on a plate. No MMO works like that.

I would also add, there has always been a learning curve in Elder Scrolls games, it's one of the things lots of people love about them.

I think you're sort of missing the point. You're comparing it to an Elder Scrolls game... but ESO is also an MMO, and in most other MMOs you skip old content and go straight into the newest content, grinding only new content for relevant gear.

ESO is different - you basically need to wade through 10 years of content to get gear that is relevant for today. Even grinding the old content won't really help you for clearing old content, because that gear has been patched/changed/deprecated since early release, and builds from old content no longer work in old content. It is a waste of time and resources in ESO to farm anything other than the 'meta' or 'near meta' sets, at least if you are looking to complete group content in an organized group (which is what people who join ESO because it's an MMO tend to want to do).

This is why I can't get the last base vet for my achievement tracker, a list used to rank up in guilds. No one does vHoF because the gear largely sucks and you don't need veteran for the gear that doesn't.

Sakiri

sarahthes wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

I think you're sort of missing the point. You're comparing it to an Elder Scrolls game... but ESO is also an MMO, and in most other MMOs you skip old content and go straight into the newest content, grinding only new content for relevant gear.

No I'm not. You read a passing comment in my last sentance and applied it to everything else I said.

No I didn't. You said that newer/younger guilds should progress old content together, and my counterpoint was that they still have to run the newer content to get the gear for the older content - so it's still a barrier to entry.

No they don't. You want to run Craglorn trials as a stamina DD - go craft Hundings and farm some Briarheart from Wrothgar.

You want some Pillar of Nirn for harder content, run some normal FH and save up transmute crystals to recontruct with the traits you want.

Heck you can even do that approach with trial gear - even nDSR goes not require hundreds of CP or the best gear. Farm the non-perfected gear, save up transmute crystals, reconstruct.

None of that is difficult. It does require work though.

PIllar of Nirn is from DLC that has to be purchased, and is separate from the most current DLC.

Briarheart is from DLC that has to be purchased, and is separate from the most current DLC. You can buy it, it's tradeable, but its a lot harder to find these days as the content isnt new/relevant and the gear isnt worth as much (so fewer people are selling it).

Dreadsail is located in DLC that has to be purchased, and is separate from the most current DLC.

I'm not talking about difficulty gating things. I'm taking about having to spend money on old content to clear new content, as someone new to the game.

Content you get by paying for a month of ESO+.

If you're serious enough about the game, one month here and there to fill the craft bag and farm a couple trial sets isn't out of the question.

CameraBeardThePirate

How about an actual tutorial?

The current tutorial is poo. It doesn't touch on any of the mechanics you need to know for end game content (both PvE and PvP). The tutorial should, at minimum, mention things like:

The Global Cooldown
- A simple pop up explaining that you can cast an ability once per second, and should aim for this cadence to maximize damage or healing

Light attack weaving
- another pop-up explaining that you can fit a light attack in between each ability cast, could even be in the same pop-up as above

Ulti gen from LAs, Resource Return from HAs
- a moment in the tutorial where your resource is drained, and you're encouraged to heavy attack to restore it. Could mention the ulti gen from light attacks in this same pop-up, and explain that LAs and HAs are typically not where the majority of your damage comes from

The standard Major buffs that 90% of builds should try to acquire (Sorc/Brut, Proph/Sav, Resolve, Recoveries)
- a pop-up briefly describing the Major/Minor system, and the most common buffs that you would aim to acquire

Importance of consumables
- Discuss how it's important to always have a food buff running, and to always have potions slotted.

These are all things that would take 10 minutes at most to explain to a player, but often go undiscovered because the tutorial doesn't even mention them. Sure, not every casual player needs to know these things, but it becomes a needless barrier of entry to end game content when these things go unmentioned. They're all really simple concepts that instantly boost a player's effective damage/healing output, and yet they never get brought up in any official capacity; players are just left to discover (or, in most cases, never discover) these concepts.

The amount of times you join a random dungeon or battleground and realize half your groupmates aren't even using a food buff is wild to me.

Stamicka

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Skill plays a minor role in ESO...

It is time to stop introducing new item sets or nerfing core mechanics since this approach ends up upsetting every type of player as outlined. Instead, Skill Expression should be embraced, barriers to entry need to be lowered, rewards need to be increased, and communities should be free to grow and not alienated. Additionally, the knowledge gap should be addressed by either reducing the number of sets, or adding more opportunities for players to learn core mechanics throughout their time playing. With the current approach of introducing item set bandaids or nerfing players to be on the same level, the number of players engaging in these activities will continue to decline. A more involved and complete approach is needed, otherwise these activities will remain niche or die out.

I couldn't disagree that skill plays a "minor role" in ESO any harder, but I 100% agree with the conclusion.

The Oakensoul has been a terrific success at allowing a whole new layer of people to play end game content. I think we all agree that's a good thing. But its very success highlights the vast skill difference between people who can play the game like a DDR game, and those who can't. I think the combat in this game basically resembles Crypt of the Necrodancer. You have to do everything on a beat, and there are people for whom this comes naturally, and people for whom it doesn't.

In PVP, to be competitive, you not only have to have the CP, skills, and gear all leveled up and optimized, AND all the timing perfected to be able to parse something like 120K+, but then you ALSO be able to think on your feet and improvise. It's an impressive collection of time, practice, and skill. And even for people who play PVP, the top 10-20% of the people in the instance are running the show. The skill difference between even great PVE players (who stay away from PVP) and great PVP players is ridiculous. The people who can truly master all of this are the 1% of the 1% of this game's player base.

There's a few core things that players need to get down in order to stand a chance in PvP and end game PvE environments. I would agree that there is a very big skill difference between people who don't have the fundamentals at all (like blocking and generally doing some sort of damage) and someone who does have those things down. After that point however, skill plays a more minor role and build/group comp plays a major role. The lines between skilled players and well built players starts to get very blurry.

Part of the skill aspect I discussed is whether or not the players actions impact the end result. There's actually a lot of areas in ESO where another players actions don't end up changing the outcome of a situation or a fight. Have you ever watched two ballgroups fight? I've seen it, and most of the time no ones actions really matter because cross healing is so insane. Maybe some damage is dealt here and there, but the damage is healed almost instantly with little effort. This results in a stalemate usually. It didn't matter which group timed their ultimates better or moved better, everyone has so much health and healing that everyone survives. This is sometimes true outside of ballgroup fights as well. One player may line up their burst perfectly and another player may forget to block, roll, or mitigate the damage somehow. With how high health pools are and the fact that everyone runs stage 3 vampire, this also won't matter. You can line up your burst perfectly many times and another person can survive it by doing nothing just because their build allows them too.

In PvE this looks a little bit different, but it's still there. There are many mechanics in PvE content that used to kill players for getting hit by it. Due to power creep or content nerfs, these mechanics don't kill anymore. So if one player is good at avoiding this mechanic completely and another player just eats it, is there really a difference? A lot of the time the answer is no. Velothi is another example. If one player is good at light attack weaving and another isn't, but both players are in Velothi, does it matter? Not at all.

In this way skill plays a minor role in ESO and builds or other factors play the major role.

Stamicka

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

How about an actual tutorial?

The current tutorial is poo. It doesn't touch on any of the mechanics you need to know for end game content (both PvE and PvP). The tutorial should, at minimum, mention things like:

The Global Cooldown
- A simple pop up explaining that you can cast an ability once per second, and should aim for this cadence to maximize damage or healing

Light attack weaving
- another pop-up explaining that you can fit a light attack in between each ability cast, could even be in the same pop-up as above

Ulti gen from LAs, Resource Return from HAs
- a moment in the tutorial where your resource is drained, and you're encouraged to heavy attack to restore it. Could mention the ulti gen from light attacks in this same pop-up, and explain that LAs and HAs are typically not where the majority of your damage comes from

The standard Major buffs that 90% of builds should try to acquire (Sorc/Brut, Proph/Sav, Resolve, Recoveries)
- a pop-up briefly describing the Major/Minor system, and the most common buffs that you would aim to acquire

Importance of consumables
- Discuss how it's important to always have a food buff running, and to always have potions slotted.

These are all things that would take 10 minutes at most to explain to a player, but often go undiscovered because the tutorial doesn't even mention them. Sure, not every casual player needs to know these things, but it becomes a needless barrier of entry to end game content when these things go unmentioned. They're all really simple concepts that instantly boost a player's effective damage/healing output, and yet they never get brought up in any official capacity; players are just left to discover (or, in most cases, never discover) these concepts.

The amount of times you join a random dungeon or battleground and realize half your groupmates aren't even using a food buff is wild to me.

I completely agree. Since part of the barrier to entry issue is due to players missing a ton of needed knowledge, a good tutorial could fill in those gaps and help a lot.

_adhyffbjjjf12

Stamicka wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

How about an actual tutorial?

The current tutorial is poo. It doesn't touch on any of the mechanics you need to know for end game content (both PvE and PvP). The tutorial should, at minimum, mention things like:

The Global Cooldown
- A simple pop up explaining that you can cast an ability once per second, and should aim for this cadence to maximize damage or healing

Light attack weaving
- another pop-up explaining that you can fit a light attack in between each ability cast, could even be in the same pop-up as above

Ulti gen from LAs, Resource Return from HAs
- a moment in the tutorial where your resource is drained, and you're encouraged to heavy attack to restore it. Could mention the ulti gen from light attacks in this same pop-up, and explain that LAs and HAs are typically not where the majority of your damage comes from

The standard Major buffs that 90% of builds should try to acquire (Sorc/Brut, Proph/Sav, Resolve, Recoveries)
- a pop-up briefly describing the Major/Minor system, and the most common buffs that you would aim to acquire

Importance of consumables
- Discuss how it's important to always have a food buff running, and to always have potions slotted.

These are all things that would take 10 minutes at most to explain to a player, but often go undiscovered because the tutorial doesn't even mention them. Sure, not every casual player needs to know these things, but it becomes a needless barrier of entry to end game content when these things go unmentioned. They're all really simple concepts that instantly boost a player's effective damage/healing output, and yet they never get brought up in any official capacity; players are just left to discover (or, in most cases, never discover) these concepts.

The amount of times you join a random dungeon or battleground and realize half your groupmates aren't even using a food buff is wild to me.

I completely agree. Since part of the barrier to entry issue is due to players missing a ton of needed knowledge, a good tutorial could fill in those gaps and help a lot.

the above list describes everything that is wrong with ESO PVP its a list of PVE/rotation/broken ESO mechanics/buff nonsense that has leaked into its PVP making it such an unpleasant gaming experience

Galeriano2

Hasenpfote wrote: »

ESO has a gamedesign issue, light attack weaving is mandatory to do a meaningful dps, this can by bypasses if you do heavy attack build.

Light attack weave is not mandatory to do meaningfull DPS.

Galeriano2

Gabriel_H wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Light attack weaving is completely irrelevant in endgame, as everyone now uses the Velothi mythic due to its ease of use. I'd like to encourage you to explore other builds - as long as Velothi is relevant, you can get away with only light attacking once every 9 seconds (for ultimate generation).

Arms of Relequen ... Whorl of the Depths ... !

None of them requires light attack weaving. Light attack weaving reffers to applying light attacks inbetween ability casts preferably every time. Relequen requires to perform 1 light attack once every 5 seconds or less and whorl requires to do it once every 18 seconds or more. Relequen can be also applied by heavy attacks. While light attack weaving makes effects of these sets easier to keep up it's not required.

dk_dunkirk

Stamicka wrote: »

Skill plays a minor role in ESO...

It is time to stop introducing new item sets or nerfing core mechanics since this approach ends up upsetting every type of player as outlined. Instead, Skill Expression should be embraced, barriers to entry need to be lowered, rewards need to be increased, and communities should be free to grow and not alienated. Additionally, the knowledge gap should be addressed by either reducing the number of sets, or adding more opportunities for players to learn core mechanics throughout their time playing. With the current approach of introducing item set bandaids or nerfing players to be on the same level, the number of players engaging in these activities will continue to decline. A more involved and complete approach is needed, otherwise these activities will remain niche or die out.

Stamicka wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Skill plays a minor role in ESO...

It is time to stop introducing new item sets or nerfing core mechanics since this approach ends up upsetting every type of player as outlined. Instead, Skill Expression should be embraced, barriers to entry need to be lowered, rewards need to be increased, and communities should be free to grow and not alienated. Additionally, the knowledge gap should be addressed by either reducing the number of sets, or adding more opportunities for players to learn core mechanics throughout their time playing. With the current approach of introducing item set bandaids or nerfing players to be on the same level, the number of players engaging in these activities will continue to decline. A more involved and complete approach is needed, otherwise these activities will remain niche or die out.

I couldn't disagree that skill plays a "minor role" in ESO any harder, but I 100% agree with the conclusion.

The Oakensoul has been a terrific success at allowing a whole new layer of people to play end game content. I think we all agree that's a good thing. But its very success highlights the vast skill difference between people who can play the game like a DDR game, and those who can't. I think the combat in this game basically resembles Crypt of the Necrodancer. You have to do everything on a beat, and there are people for whom this comes naturally, and people for whom it doesn't.

In PVP, to be competitive, you not only have to have the CP, skills, and gear all leveled up and optimized, AND all the timing perfected to be able to parse something like 120K+, but then you ALSO be able to think on your feet and improvise. It's an impressive collection of time, practice, and skill. And even for people who play PVP, the top 10-20% of the people in the instance are running the show. The skill difference between even great PVE players (who stay away from PVP) and great PVP players is ridiculous. The people who can truly master all of this are the 1% of the 1% of this game's player base.

There's a few core things that players need to get down in order to stand a chance in PvP and end game PvE environments. I would agree that there is a very big skill difference between people who don't have the fundamentals at all (like blocking and generally doing some sort of damage) and someone who does have those things down. After that point however, skill plays a more minor role and build/group comp plays a major role. The lines between skilled players and well built players starts to get very blurry.

Part of the skill aspect I discussed is whether or not the players actions impact the end result. There's actually a lot of areas in ESO where another players actions don't end up changing the outcome of a situation or a fight. Have you ever watched two ballgroups fight? I've seen it, and most of the time no ones actions really matter because cross healing is so insane. Maybe some damage is dealt here and there, but the damage is healed almost instantly with little effort. This results in a stalemate usually. It didn't matter which group timed their ultimates better or moved better, everyone has so much health and healing that everyone survives. This is sometimes true outside of ballgroup fights as well. One player may line up their burst perfectly and another player may forget to block, roll, or mitigate the damage somehow. With how high health pools are and the fact that everyone runs stage 3 vampire, this also won't matter. You can line up your burst perfectly many times and another person can survive it by doing nothing just because their build allows them too.

In PvE this looks a little bit different, but it's still there. There are many mechanics in PvE content that used to kill players for getting hit by it. Due to power creep or content nerfs, these mechanics don't kill anymore. So if one player is good at avoiding this mechanic completely and another player just eats it, is there really a difference? A lot of the time the answer is no. Velothi is another example. If one player is good at light attack weaving and another isn't, but both players are in Velothi, does it matter? Not at all.

In this way skill plays a minor role in ESO and builds or other factors play the major role.

Totally see where you're coming from now. Well said.

dk_dunkirk

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Hasenpfote wrote: »

ESO has a gamedesign issue, light attack weaving is mandatory to do a meaningful dps, this can by bypasses if you do heavy attack build.

Light attack weave is not mandatory to do meaningfull DPS.

I swear I remember it being counted on for a lot more than you get out of it today. Did they change it while I was away.

Case in point: The build I'm trying to emulate only gets 7% of it's total damage from LA's. At 135K, 9.5K isn't going to be missed if you swap in Velothi. Hmmm....

Telos_Tim

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Hasenpfote wrote: »

ESO has a gamedesign issue, light attack weaving is mandatory to do a meaningful dps, this can by bypasses if you do heavy attack build.

Light attack weave is not mandatory to do meaningfull DPS.

I swear I remember it being counted on for a lot more than you get out of it today. Did they change it while I was away.

Case in point: The build I'm trying to emulate only gets 7% of it's total damage from LA's. At 135K, 9.5K isn't going to be missed if you swap in Velothi. Hmmm....

You light attack weave for the increased chance to proc glyphs and for the chance to cause a status effect from the weapon itself.

Soarora

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Hasenpfote wrote: »

ESO has a gamedesign issue, light attack weaving is mandatory to do a meaningful dps, this can by bypasses if you do heavy attack build.

Light attack weave is not mandatory to do meaningfull DPS.

I swear I remember it being counted on for a lot more than you get out of it today. Did they change it while I was away.

Case in point: The build I'm trying to emulate only gets 7% of it's total damage from LA's. At 135K, 9.5K isn't going to be missed if you swap in Velothi. Hmmm....

Yes, they changed it. I believe nerfing LAs was a part of U35.

Galeriano2

Telos_Tim wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Hasenpfote wrote: »

ESO has a gamedesign issue, light attack weaving is mandatory to do a meaningful dps, this can by bypasses if you do heavy attack build.

Light attack weave is not mandatory to do meaningfull DPS.

I swear I remember it being counted on for a lot more than you get out of it today. Did they change it while I was away.

Case in point: The build I'm trying to emulate only gets 7% of it's total damage from LA's. At 135K, 9.5K isn't going to be missed if you swap in Velothi. Hmmm....

You light attack weave for the increased chance to proc glyphs and for the chance to cause a status effect from the weapon itself.

Light attacks do not proc status effects. Atleast not until U42 where ZoS adds a new set that will enable that option.