A disheartening lack of tolerance for low level players in trials

alpha_synuclein

vsrs_au wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

I get that bashing on supposed gatekeepers is always in fashion and I'm not saying that gatekeeping does not exist, but is this really a thread about new players experience?

When I was level 10 and starting to play I was trying to figure out how my abilities work and where skillpoints come from. I didn't even know trials exist. Considering how solo oriented ESO is I would assume we are not having tons of players that get to level ten and say "time to go raidin".

Seems more like OP found an unusual way of powerleveling and got upset when others didn't comply...

The original poster wasn't in the position of figuring out how the game works, though: they clearly mentioned in their original post that they were levelling an alt character.

After describing his own situation he referred to new players experience, stating that for a first timer rejection can be deterring. And this seems to be part that lots of following comments jump into.

Vulkunne

C_Inside wrote: »

Recently I've created an alt character that I'm leveling. In case you don't know the most efficient way to level the Undaunted skill line before hitting CP is to do the weekly trial quests since you can start joining trial groups at level 10 (not to mention you get a bunch of transmutes, slaughterstones, and possibly style pages). What I've found however is that for all the talk of the ESO community being this inclusive place that is more than willing to help new players, it sure isn't willing to let them participate in any harder content (if you can even call nAA hard).

Almost every single trial group I join the leader winds up kicking me. Keep in mind, these are normal trials I'm trying to do and I'm queuing as a DD. So not a very significant role. Even if I was only providing like 4K dps it wouldn't change anything as there are no dps checks in normal trials. Most of the time I have to explain myself and even after linking several hard mode clears I still get kicked. I honestly can't imagine how hard it must be for actual new players to start doing trials when this is what I have to deal with. Nevermind how often I have to try and defend myself from the "your dps is too low for this normal base game trial that has no dps checks" crowd. Something that a new player probably won't have the confidence to do.

Speaking of new platers how do these people who kick low levels think a new player that has just gathered the courage to apply for a trial will feel? Are they going to try again with a different group or will they just go "Well I tried, I got told to ef off. Clearly raiding isn't for me". It's no secret that ESO has a problem with player retention, which is especially felt in the end game community and this sort of behavior really isn't helping the matter. I sometimes wonder how much easier it would be to find support roles if low level trials were encouraged instead of how it is right now. The group finder for trials opens up at level 10 for God's sake!

This pedantic focus on level doesn't end once you hit CP, however. Oh no. Wanna do vAA? Better hope you're at least CP2000 with fully golded gear (including the jewelry and armor) otherwise you're not stepping foot in vet trials chief. I was recently in a vHRC pug and had to argue with the raid lead and 4 other people about a CP438 player that wanted to join. Wanna know what happened at the last boss? Most of the CP2000 people that were in the group died to Shehai Storm because they didn't know to split up. Meanwhile the CP438 didn't die once.

Bottom line is I just really wish ESO as a whole encouraged low level raiding more and that the community would be more accepting of low level raiders. Most of the best gear in the game is found in trials after all and I bet many people would stick around with ESO if Minor Slayer gear wasn't this mythical, unobtainable thing that only the top 0.01% of players have.

So let's take a step back and think about this. What you're saying is and isn't true. There is like an unofficial 'qualification' if you will... it's unspoken but widely recognized. In other words, a Trial, even a normal one, is content that due to its complexity, it carries a certain expectation. And I feel that in your post, I agree with your sentiment, I disagree with your outlook.

The expectation is that a more mature character will be presented as being part of the Team. So its a thing where anyone can join the group but should they join the group? Its like saying I'm new at bowling and now I want to take the place of someone on a Team who might be better at that then I would be and would be more deserving of that place on the Team because they put the time in learning and building experience.

When you're below lvl 50 that tells the community (as you put it) that you have not yet finished leveling your character to CP, which many others have, and now you want to take the place of someone else who has CP bonuses in addition to be leveled. Believe it or not, a weak link, especially a DPS (or damage dealer), is like someone trying to walk normally with a sore limb.. its painful and overtime becomes very noticeable.

In short DPS wins fights. A Tank is a means to an end and is a wall that will probably not last forever (unless its mine ) I joke but you get what I mean. A Healer is also a means to an end and they cannot heal forever. DPS is like so important, always has been and the fact you think of DPS as being a lesser role and DPS rotations as not changing anything, says that I would not want you on my Team for that very reason. I mean think about it, you're playing a role that you don't seem to believe in and are not fully invested in.

In my response here I mean no hostility or such. But I think you're in the wrong place if you believe that low level characters should have precedence over someone more experienced, who could bring more to the Team and you don't understand the value of good DPS. Why would you want to do Trials again. I don't understand the logic here, but I hope you find what you're looking for out there. This is a reason why I avoid Trials, because many times there is alot of drama and when things go south they almost always look for someone to blame. That is annoying, it gets old fast so I agree with you on that point and even though I have the option to participate in Trials if I wanted to, its just not worth it for me.

Yet, regardless of your opinion or mine, we have to understand there are other people involved, 8 to 12 usually and someone's opinion will always carry weight whether it be nice or not. And we have to be able to deal with that but the less you bring to the table the harder it is to do so. And being a normal or veteran run does not change any of this. Therefore.

Tra_Lalan

So basicaly you want to get carried and find it offensive that some people have better things to do?

Hapexamendios

I wouldn't even consider doing a trial on a low level character.

Araneae6537

In group finder, one can set minimum level/CP, right? Why don’t we all agree that people setting up group should use that feature if they have minimum expectations — save everyone frustration. If used properly, then a lower level player should feel welcome in a group where they meet the requirements.

I think many of us have the idea there are minimum levels to be able to contribute in a trial because they are usually, or at least started out, as endgame content, and most dungeons have level requirements if you’re queuing for them and not porting in directly. I had assumed this was the case for trials, but otherwise difficulty-wise, for Craglorn trials at least, why not bring any level if everyone’s scaled like in dungeons? But if you have a reason why not, that’s fine too, set the minimum requirements in the group finder.

sleepy_worm

Level 4. No CP. Blue crafted gear, purple weapon. Mediocre weaving.

45k DPS on the trial dummy.



19k on the 3m skeleton.



Seems about on par with a copy-pasted Alcast build, underpenning by 7k and losing Rele stacks at random, which is what you'll probably get with the CP160 crew. At any rate, we can probably stop the "4k DPS getting carried" hyperbole now. The game aggressively scales you up when you're below level cap.

sarahthes

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Level 4. No CP. Blue crafted gear, purple weapon. Mediocre weaving.

45k DPS on the trial dummy.



19k on the 3m skeleton.



Seems about on par with a copy-pasted Alcast build, underpenning by 7k and losing Rele stacks at random, which is what you'll probably get with the CP160 crew. At any rate, we can probably stop the "4k DPS getting carried" hyperbole now. The game aggressively scales you up when you're below level cap.

Still more damage than half the people in group finder.

Blood_again

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Level 4. No CP. Blue crafted gear, purple weapon. Mediocre weaving.

45k DPS on the trial dummy.
[skipped]
At any rate, we can probably stop the "4k DPS getting carried" hyperbole now. The game aggressively scales you up when you're below level cap.

Considering your achievement, should we from now kick any low-level who does less than 35k? Just for underperformance.

It is not me. That's you who pulled the plug off this genie bottle  

sarahthes

Blood_again wrote: »

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Level 4. No CP. Blue crafted gear, purple weapon. Mediocre weaving.

45k DPS on the trial dummy.
[skipped]
At any rate, we can probably stop the "4k DPS getting carried" hyperbole now. The game aggressively scales you up when you're below level cap.

Considering your achievement, should we from now kick any low-level who does less than 35k? Just for underperformance.

It is not me. That's you who pulled the plug off this genie bottle  

The solution is to not gatekeep normal trials. Vet, sure, you need a minimum amount of damage. But normal? Just 2 good dds can carry an entire roster of underperforming dds in a normal trial.

Desiato

Regarding the low level parse, I feel that's a cherry picked example for a couple of reasons. For one, the power buffs low players receive are at their most extreme at the very lowest of levels.

I don't know anything about playing an Arcanist, but I tend to think other classes aren't going to achieve the same results. I don't think a single ability is going to be hitting 30k dps. Arcanist obviously has a reputation as being a dps carry class.

Also, stats drop quickly on lowbies when they use gear that's under their level. This will be the case for most alts. It may not be significant below level 10, but it starts to really matter after level 16 or so for sure. A level 20 in level 16 gear is wielding a wet noodle. I know this from my experiences leveling alts.

Surely most of us have random dungeon experience with lowbies. In truth, how often are the lowbie dps pulling their own weight? Never, in my experience. I carried 3 lowbies in a base game dungeon the other day doing 80% of the damage on my healer while keeping them alive. And I wasn't hitting 30k dps.

El_Borracho

Muizer wrote: »

Isn't it amusing OP? All these people disagreeing with you and in doing so proving your right

Is this serious? He wants to join a trial at Level 10 and is upset because the 11 other players don't want to carry a Level 10 player. At some point, its time to recognize it might be you when it happens repeatedly.

If anything, the raid community has become more tolerant, to borrow OP's term, over the years. Haven't had someone ask to see my gear in years.

Desiato

El_Borracho wrote: »

If anything, the raid community has become more tolerant, to borrow OP's term, over the years. Haven't had someone ask to see my gear in years.

Yes, this thread definitely presents a distorted view of the raiding community. It is actually a disservice to it because it's going to make some people think it's elitist when it's not.

For the people who don't normally participate in group finder pugs, I want to share my experience to illustrate that this thread isn't necessarily reflective of typical experiences.

Over the past two weeks, I estimate I've participated in over 100 group finder trial pugs. I always look at the group comp and I've never observed someone under level 50. So to me the topic of this thread is, in practice, largely a non-issue.

I've only observed someone under 100 CP once. But there are usually lots of 300-600 CP players.

The only times someone has been kicked is when they're afk and the rest of the group is ready to proceed, and this has been after some patient waiting.

So don't draw too many conclusions from this thread. In my recent experience, the PC/NA pug normal trial scene is very friendly, chill and accepting. They've certainly been kind to me as someone new to trials and no one has turned me away from a normal pug because of it.

Icy_Waffles

Joining a guild would be your best solution. I don't think it's toxic to kick low levels in a trial. Doing undaunted dailies, and running through daily randoms and doing the quest is a great way to level the skill line until you hit 45 and can do the undaunted dailies for more xp.

Sakiri

I'm quite tolerant of new players, be it fresh 50s or new to the role they're playing. I am *not* tolerant of low levels attempting to partake in what was originally(and I feel still is designed for), level 50 content.

That said, the phrase is, "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Take that into consideration when you think about doing something boneheaded like expecting a pug to want to take a low level into a trial. Guild runs are one thing. Pugs? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

DigiAngel

I'd like to think I'm tolerant enough by ending up doing 80% DPS and 75% healing (oakensorc) in normal dungeons when I decide to do them. I don't bag out and balk at the rest of the team that's all under lvl 20. I figure I'm helping them along leveling their character and that's cool.

But a pug trial? That's a hard sell unless they have the chops to get through it.

sarahthes

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd like to think I'm tolerant enough by ending up doing 80% DPS and 75% healing (oakensorc) in normal dungeons when I decide to do them. I don't bag out and balk at the rest of the team that's all under lvl 20. I figure I'm helping them along leveling their character and that's cool.

But a pug trial? That's a hard sell unless they have the chops to get through it.

A normal craglorn trial (what the OP was trying to do) is the equivalent of a normal dungeon.

sleepy_worm

Desiato wrote: »

Regarding the low level parse, I feel that's a cherry picked example for a couple of reasons. For one, the power buffs low players receive are at their most extreme at the very lowest of levels.

The entire point of the parse was to showcase the level-scaling. There are people in this thread displaying a grotesque misunderstanding of some very basic gameplay mechanics regarding level scaling, so of course my example was going to be "extreme."

What DPS numbers do you expect a non-arcanist to hit at level 16 in level 10 gear? I guarantee you it is not "4k dps HAHAHA," which is the kind of misinformed silliness I was addressing by providing evidence against it.

*edited for wording*

LaintalAy

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

WIth all due respect: how hard is it to get a character to level 50?

If they were to get to level 50, then their CP would kick in. You may present as CP1800 for example, but have no useful abilities unlocked or even slotted for that matter. Yet, you'd be through some "gate" just on that.

This now makes you a high-level player, just useless. At least with a sub-50 player, you'll know what to expect and being tolerant, can choose to run with it. Or not.

Desiato

sleepy_worm wrote: »

The entire point of the parse was to showcase the level-scaling. There are people in this thread displaying a grotesque misunderstanding of some very basic gameplay mechanics regarding level scaling, so of course my example was going to be "extreme."

What DPS numbers do you expect a non-arcanist to hit at level 16 in level 10 gear? I guarantee you it is not "4k dps HAHAHA," which is the kind of misinformed silliness I was addressing by providing evidence against it.

*edited for wording*

The 4k dps figure came from the OP which is probably why it was referenced by another poster.

I think the dps a level 16 in level 10 gear reaches will be much lower than what the same player using it reaches when using a level 50 character in CP160 gear; and some players struggle to dps with the latter because the game never pushed them to learn how to do it properly. It makes a difference because the average player pugging trials is probably still learning to parse as it is and as a result pug trial dps can be very low.

I think skilled players and even average ones who can weave and execute abilities close to the gcd underestimate how much the average trial pug player may struggle. So it's important they come as prepared as possible IMO.

Based on my experiences in random dungeon finder pugs, I think the average sub-50 is hitting 10k dps or less. That's not to say that's their ceiling, but what tends to happen based on what combat metrics is telling me. Sure, the same can happen with a level 50, but that is much less common.

Amottica

C_Inside wrote: »

What I've found however is that for all the talk of the ESO community being this inclusive place that is more than willing to help new players, it sure isn't willing to let them participate in any harder content (if you can even call nAA hard).

Groups and guilds have goals they seek to achieve. Different guilds serve different purposes, from serious raiding guilds to more casual general gameplay guilds. With each, the leaders will have set different requirements and expectations to help the group achieve their goal. No one should expect them to settle for less. There should be no expectation that any and every group would be willing to take any player along with them for a trial or for any other purpose.

So, having groups that are not willing to bring along a level 10 character in a trial does not suggest the ESO community itself is not inclusive. One needs to find the group, and better via the appropriate guild, for what they want to do. Sometimes it takes being the leader to bring it all together instead of waiting for someone else to do all the work.

Good luck.

sleepy_worm

Desiato wrote: »

Based on my experiences in random dungeon finder pugs, I think the average sub-50 is hitting 10k dps or less. That's not to say that's their ceiling, but what tends to happen based on what combat metrics is telling me. Sure, the same can happen with a level 50, but that is much less common.

So this raises an important question. Is it okay to judge a player based on a non-DPS factor, using the generalizations of past experience? There are many people in this thread unwilling to even entertain the idea of a low-level player thinking about joining a trial. No conversation, no mitigating circumstances, no exceptions. They assume low level means someone wants a carry.

I think these assumptions are founded on a prevalent and toxic myth about normal trials. I see it every day in my guild. People assume they can't do trials, that they don't belong there. People in this thread have said they don't belong there. There are people who think normal trials are the kind of endgame content they could never hope to participate in. And the community, as a whole, is worse off for buying into that lie and justifying it with an oddly selfish, zero-sum attitude.

While we're talking about our experiences, let me tell you my experience with PUGs. In my experience, almost every player I interact with thinks they are an unsalvageable cesspit of the worst humanity has to offer. I know this isn't true, but they get this reputation with every silent kick, every impatient leader, every unnecessary gate slammed shut.

Warhawke_80

I don't have an answer for trials that wouldn't make the 1% have an aneurysm...

The devs keep saying some form of story mode is on their list meaning they agree with the vast majority...but it has yet to happen.

Rkindaleft

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

Based on my experiences in random dungeon finder pugs, I think the average sub-50 is hitting 10k dps or less. That's not to say that's their ceiling, but what tends to happen based on what combat metrics is telling me. Sure, the same can happen with a level 50, but that is much less common.

So this raises an important question. Is it okay to judge a player based on a non-DPS factor, using the generalizations of past experience? There are many people in this thread unwilling to even entertain the idea of a low-level player thinking about joining a trial. No conversation, no mitigating circumstances, no exceptions. They assume low level means someone wants a carry.

No, there are literally hundreds of guilds across platforms that do runs that don't worry about what your DPS is, your experience level or what gear setup you use. Those level 10s can join the hundreds of them and do whatever they want. I have run tons and tons of trials with characters that are under level 50.

Conversely, it's perfectly okay and not prejudiced at all for a trial group to not want a level 10 player in their runs for any reason. If your group is gear farming for example, why would you want a Level 10 character there when the gear they get is absolutely useless for everyone? Sure, they can add it to their stickerbook still, but if someone gets an Alkosh body piece in Divines that they're willing to give away I'd much rather it be CP160 than Level 10 so I don't have to waste my time or my transmutes.

Desiato

sleepy_worm wrote: »

So this raises an important question. Is it okay to judge a player based on a non-DPS factor, using the generalizations of past experience? There are many people in this thread unwilling to even entertain the idea of a low-level player thinking about joining a trial. No conversation, no mitigating circumstances, no exceptions. They assume low level means someone wants a carry.

Yes, it is perfectly OK in the context of this thread.

Because if they are legitimately new players, they should be patient about this short sub-50 period they're in and focus on tasks more relevant to them: leveling guilds, getting skyshards, earning gold to pay for upgrades, complete dungeons for skill points and their gear collection, and get to at least CP 160 so they can start assembling gear sets they'll be using for a while. Anyone who is new and not level 50 will not have done those things yet.

If they aren't new and already have a level 50 character, much of the above still applies, but they have a level 50 character they can use for Trials if they choose to do them.

sleepy_worm wrote: »

I think these assumptions are founded on a prevalent and toxic myth about normal trials. I see it every day in my guild. People assume they can't do trials, that they don't belong there. People in this thread have said they don't belong there. There are people who think normal trials are the kind of endgame content they could never hope to participate in. And the community, as a whole, is worse off for buying into that lie and justifying it with an oddly selfish, zero-sum attitude.

I've never seen any level of bullying in normal trials, nor have I seen anyone called out for their poor DPS. I've only seen cool, friendly people in the 100 or so pug normals I've run the past two weeks.

Most of the trials were new to me at the start of this process, and I expressed that upon joining groups and asked if it was OK. The answer every single time was friendly and encouraging, along the lines of "of course, everyone has to start somewhere!"

And in most pugs I'm in, the dps *is* poor, but no one ever complains.

Your experiences are completely different than mine, that's for sure. PVP players can be pretty brutal about criticism, but the eso trial scene seems pretty chill to me.

Amottica

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

Based on my experiences in random dungeon finder pugs, I think the average sub-50 is hitting 10k dps or less. That's not to say that's their ceiling, but what tends to happen based on what combat metrics is telling me. Sure, the same can happen with a level 50, but that is much less common.

So this raises an important question. Is it okay to judge a player based on a non-DPS factor, using the generalizations of past experience? There are many people in this thread unwilling to even entertain the idea of a low-level player thinking about joining a trial. No conversation, no mitigating circumstances, no exceptions. They assume low level means someone wants a carry.

Any leader forming a group, and someone who is taking the time to form the group is taking a leadership role, has the right to decide what they are looking for in players to join in the group. After all, they are the ones putting the effort into getting a group together. It is irrelevant if the group could still easily clear the content while bringing along a low-level player.

So yes, if the person forming the group does not want to bring a low-level player into the fold, that is their prerogative. Anyone who wants a group to do things differently can form their form a group themselves.

Sakiri

All I know is that if this were another specific toxicly casual game, we'd be compelled to bring them, and carry them, and when the group can't complete the activity it'd have to silently disband and reform without the low level players/low dps/whatever, because you can't give them advice, you can't tell them they're not performing, and you can't kick them because you'll get reported.

That plus 20 years of being jaded by world of warcraft's community of people doing less damage than the healer and "but fire gives me rage", makes me incredibly picky about whom I bring in a pick up group. I have tolerance for new and inexperienced but my tolerance has a limit. Keep doing the same stupid thing after being asked not to, dying to the same mechanic over and over again, and not meeting base minimum requirements and you're out.

While I'm ranting, why is it so dang hard to stand in front of the freaking healers!!!!!!! Gah. Okay. I'm good.

sleepy_worm

Desiato wrote: »

The answer every single time was friendly and encouraging, along the lines of "of course, everyone has to start somewhere!"

Except, of course, for some arbitrary level number.

Desiato

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

The answer every single time was friendly and encouraging, along the lines of "of course, everyone has to start somewhere!"

Except, of course, for some arbitrary level number.

I've haven't even observed anyone sub-50 try to join a group finder trial, and if they did I would I bet few would even care. This thread is much ado about nothing.

Desiato

Sakiri wrote: »

That plus 20 years of being jaded by world of warcraft's community of people doing less damage than the healer and "but fire gives me rage", makes me incredibly picky about whom I bring in a pick up group. I have tolerance for new and inexperienced but my tolerance has a limit. Keep doing the same stupid thing after being asked not to, dying to the same mechanic over and over again, and not meeting base minimum requirements and you're out.

While I'm ranting, why is it so dang hard to stand in front of the freaking healers!!!!!!! Gah. Okay. I'm good.

Circling strafing gives me rage

StShoot

So i are a lvl 10 dd

C_Inside wrote: »

Almost every single trial group I join the leader winds up kicking me. Keep in mind, these are normal trials I'm trying to do and I'm queuing as a DD. So not a very significant role. Even if I was only providing like 4K dps it wouldn't change anything as there are no dps checks in normal trials. [...] I sometimes wonder how much easier it would be to find support roles if low level trials were encouraged instead of how it is right now. The group finder for trials opens up at level 10 for God's sake!

So only having 4k dps in a normal trial doesnt matter ? Ok than with your logic you could than make a group with 8 low lvl 4k dps DDs; 2x2k cp tanks and 2x2k cp healers that would equal a group dps from around 40k-50k dps xD (again OPs words not mine). And i know the 4k was an exaggeration but you cant expect other DDs to pull your weight. You want to know why we have so few Tanks and Healers in random groups or why we see an ever-increasing amount of fake support roles? Let me tell you one thing, its not because of Gatekeeping. Healing and Tanking normal Content is easy, however waiting for the DDs to do their abysmal Dps is hard and boring, thats why those players rather q as a fake tank than with their real Tank.
And tbh if i had a PuG Group and you showed me all your HM clears i would kick you even faster, i would rather have a real lvl 10 in my PuG Group than an Undaunted-Leach

Muizer wrote: »

Isn't it amusing OP? All these people disagreeing with you and in doing so proving your right

Normal Raids are not a place to Lvl you character, not for new players and not for Alt characters. They are meant to be a stepping stone to get your gear and learn the basic mechanics before you step into the real endgame. There is so much to do for a new player, that you can easily reach lvl 50 and even cp 160 before ever stepping a foot into a trial. I wouldnt kick a real new lvl 10 player, but i would try to explain to him that this isnt necessarily the Content he/she should prioritize at their lvl.