A disheartening lack of tolerance for low level players in trials

LaintalAy · May 20

Desiato wrote: »

snip

There is no corruption here. Players are intended to decide who they play with, one way or another.

snip

Yes and my points are that they do it in way that, as OP suggests, is disheartening. Most counter-arguments to OPs statements have been largely 'intolerant'.

Sockermannen · May 20

It’s their groups, play by their rules or make your own but don’t try and force people to play with you. In general i don’t agree with the reasoning of your OP, the whole ”i can be dead weight but it’s ok if there is no DPS check” mentality.

I would also question the presence of a low level character and would most likely kick them, achievments can also be faked so i’d still be sceptical. I’d expect anyone in my group to be able to pull their own weight, if you can’t manage that you’re out. Don’t expect other players to drag you trough content because you decided that you wanted to get gear and transmutes early.

Anifaas · May 20

To most, your only purpose is to help them farm gear as quickly as possible. That is how trial/raid groups work in pugs across most games. It sucks but so does human nature. Forming your own group, running with a guild or expecting toxic behaviour from the gimme gimme crowd is all you can do. Reasoning with the gimme gimme crowd is not often possible. Perhaps because they forgot they're only playing a video game. Most commonly it is because the gear farmers themselves want to be carried and if you cannot carry them to an effortless win, you have no value.

sleepy_worm · May 20

It's astonishing. Most of the people assuming a level 10 character can't pull their weight probably weren't even playing before One Tamriel, but they've somehow adopted that mindset.

It's a normal trial. You can complete it quickly if everyone is level 10 and in blue crafted gear. Save the gatekeeping for content that demands it.

amig186 · May 20

Strange, normal Craglorn trials go so fast that one lowbie wouldn't make any difference, especially if he knows the few mechs there are. Seems like the best option is to start a group finder with someone you know instead of joining an existing one. In old games like D2, high level players were always happy to 'taxi' lowbies and didn't consider it a waste of their time. I can see why, it gives them more people to play with in the long run. Some people treat this game way too seriously, methinks.

AnduinTryggva · May 20

C_Inside wrote: »

Recently I've created an alt character that I'm leveling. In case you don't know the most efficient way to level the Undaunted skill line before hitting CP is to do the weekly trial quests since you can start joining trial groups at level 10 (not to mention you get a bunch of transmutes, slaughterstones, and possibly style pages). What I've found however is that for all the talk of the ESO community being this inclusive place that is more than willing to help new players, it sure isn't willing to let them participate in any harder content (if you can even call nAA hard).

Almost every single trial group I join the leader winds up kicking me. Keep in mind, these are normal trials I'm trying to do and I'm queuing as a DD. So not a very significant role. Even if I was only providing like 4K dps it wouldn't change anything as there are no dps checks in normal trials. Most of the time I have to explain myself and even after linking several hard mode clears I still get kicked. I honestly can't imagine how hard it must be for actual new players to start doing trials when this is what I have to deal with. Nevermind how often I have to try and defend myself from the "your dps is too low for this normal base game trial that has no dps checks" crowd. Something that a new player probably won't have the confidence to do.

Speaking of new platers how do these people who kick low levels think a new player that has just gathered the courage to apply for a trial will feel? Are they going to try again with a different group or will they just go "Well I tried, I got told to ef off. Clearly raiding isn't for me". It's no secret that ESO has a problem with player retention, which is especially felt in the end game community and this sort of behavior really isn't helping the matter. I sometimes wonder how much easier it would be to find support roles if low level trials were encouraged instead of how it is right now. The group finder for trials opens up at level 10 for God's sake!

This pedantic focus on level doesn't end once you hit CP, however. Oh no. Wanna do vAA? Better hope you're at least CP2000 with fully golded gear (including the jewelry and armor) otherwise you're not stepping foot in vet trials chief. I was recently in a vHRC pug and had to argue with the raid lead and 4 other people about a CP438 player that wanted to join. Wanna know what happened at the last boss? Most of the CP2000 people that were in the group died to Shehai Storm because they didn't know to split up. Meanwhile the CP438 didn't die once.

Bottom line is I just really wish ESO as a whole encouraged low level raiding more and that the community would be more accepting of low level raiders. Most of the best gear in the game is found in trials after all and I bet many people would stick around with ESO if Minor Slayer gear wasn't this mythical, unobtainable thing that only the top 0.01% of players have.

I fully agree with you. And feel for it.

At the same time I understand players that want to do their trials quickly as they farm gears and you have to run maybe 20 or more times to get the stickerboard completed.

However silently kicking players without a personal word via whisper in order to explain the kick is a smack in the face and a lack of decency towards other players.

Even better would be to have the group search explicitely mention the minimum level requirements.

Sakiri · May 20

LaintalAy wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

snip

There is no corruption here. Players are intended to decide who they play with, one way or another.

snip

Yes and my points are that they do it in way that, as OP suggests, is disheartening. Most counter-arguments to OPs statements have been largely 'intolerant'.

Way I look at it, my group, I can bring whomever I want. And I do not want a level 10 in my group. Give me one benefit to having a low level player in my trial group.

TaSheen · May 20

Sakiri wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

snip

There is no corruption here. Players are intended to decide who they play with, one way or another.

snip

Yes and my points are that they do it in way that, as OP suggests, is disheartening. Most counter-arguments to OPs statements have been largely 'intolerant'.

Way I look at it, my group, I can bring whomever I want. And I do not want a level 10 in my group. Give me one benefit to having a low level player in my trial group.

Teaching that low level player some of the mechanics etc to hopefully prompt them into becoming a raid member in the future?

At least that would seem to make sense. Keep firmly in mind I haven't raided in this game, and won't - it wasn't really fun in WoW and RIFT, and I'm now not ever messing with it again.

sleepy_worm · May 20

Sakiri wrote: »

Way I look at it, my group, I can bring whomever I want. And I do not want a level 10 in my group.

So you wouldn't tolerate a low level player in your group. That is, by definition, intolerant. You are being intolerant. Some people find that disheartening.

Sakiri · May 20

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Way I look at it, my group, I can bring whomever I want. And I do not want a level 10 in my group.

So you wouldn't tolerate a low level player in your group. That is, by definition, intolerant. You are being intolerant. Some people find that disheartening.

Honestly, too bad.

There's other ways of getting Undaunted leveling than inconveniencing my group when you can't even get a weapon swap yet.

You also haven't told me how I and my group would benefit from it.

TaSheen wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

snip

There is no corruption here. Players are intended to decide who they play with, one way or another.

snip

Yes and my points are that they do it in way that, as OP suggests, is disheartening. Most counter-arguments to OPs statements have been largely 'intolerant'.

Way I look at it, my group, I can bring whomever I want. And I do not want a level 10 in my group. Give me one benefit to having a low level player in my trial group.

Teaching that low level player some of the mechanics etc to hopefully prompt them into becoming a raid member in the future?

At least that would seem to make sense. Keep firmly in mind I haven't raided in this game, and won't - it wasn't really fun in WoW and RIFT, and I'm now not ever messing with it again.

They don't need to know trial mechanics at level 10. When I make runs, I want in and out, it's not a training run. There's plenty of guilds that run training runs. The OP doesn't seem to need to know how to do mechanics in the first place.

There's nothing in the TOS or CoC that tells me I have to accept every person that wants to join my group. And plenty of groups discriminate for various reasons. They want a specific class, or role, or support sets. On top of it, I have the group to think about. Many, and I'd wager closer to majority, of players do not want a low level in what is considered an end game activity.

spartaxoxo · May 20

I don't think most people would consider normal trials an endgame activity. Some people may not want a level 10 in a PUG but that's moreso because level 10 characters don't have skills, gear, bar swapping, etc. Not because it's endgame.

DinoZavr · May 20

i do apologize for being rude.
OP i don't get why the topic discussing or shaming other players do emerge.

Players are not programmed game objects. People have manners, habbits, morals, etiquette. And this does NOT depend on what MMO gamers are playing. Of course, some MMOs have features provoking or preventing social or anti-social behaviour (in this certain case EVE Online deserves a honorable mention, as this game sometimes provokes bad guys playstyle) but on overall teaming and cooperation is what humans do, the game only offer grouping tools and dungeons for the teams: be them random or coordinated.

i can understand players offering "4-DD" option in group finder to aleviate fake roles problems, as not everyone is happy to meet damage dealers queuing as tanks or healers to shorten theirs queue time, but 4dd is perfectly OK for Fungal Grotto I on normal difficulty (as one level 20 character can solo this dungeon), though it is sad to see the same in vet Fang Lair.
But players would not stop queuing for the roles they can not perform. Because people are what the game does not control.
And it is really difficult to invent ingame tools which make happier both groups of players: those who like to be liars, and those who do not.

Just a rant: "oh, i am low level, others kick me" can change nothing. You can not change other players, even with begging.
Offering better matchmaking tools, which are realistic to implement and not delaying the queues could be great, maybe you just make any practical suggestions like DUNEON SETTINGS panel with
- "i don't mind carrying others"
- "i don't mind 4-DD"
- i want to be carried while i walk my dog
options?
though i don't see this certain solution attractive.

TL/DR: maybe we would discuss better matchmaking tools, not the players behaviour?

Desiato · May 20

TaSheen wrote: »

Teaching that low level player some of the mechanics etc to hopefully prompt them into becoming a raid member in the future?

At least that would seem to make sense. Keep firmly in mind I haven't raided in this game, and won't - it wasn't really fun in WoW and RIFT, and I'm now not ever messing with it again.

There are countless guilds and communities on PC/NA that welcome the most inexperienced players to trials. They have leaders, and others who perform a variety of roles, who volunteer their time to help grow and sustain the raiding community. They are not difficult to find: they are only a google search away.

There is an onus on the individual to take ownership of their goals by researching and preparing for the task they wish to complete. Once they do the bare minimum, they will find an incredibly patient and welcoming community willing to help them.

The group finder is not necessarily a training tool. It is a basic interface to help people assemble with like-minded individuals who share the same goals. It's not amoral to want to play with others who have a certain level of experience.

I think it's great to have empathy for new players, but we should also have empathy for those who have other goals like preparing for vet trials by getting the rare drop they are missing to complete their build.

jle30303 · May 20

I thought you couldn't even get *into* a trial until you were level 50?

To be frank, trials are not things you level up BY doing, they are things that you level up IN ORDER TO do.

DinoZavr · May 20

jle30303 wrote: »

I thought you couldn't even get *into* a trial until you were level 50?
To be frank, trials are not things you level up BY doing, they are things that you level up IN ORDER TO do.

Actually there is no level restrictions for normal difficulty trials
and i remember Bislobo doing trial with his Twitch viewers where several level 20- toons participated, and it went well, as the core of group was provided by experienced high level players. and it was lots of fun to participate and to watch. Wolves are The great community.

Veteran restriction is level 50. Though it really requires skills, abiding mechanics and good gear, not to be carried.

tincanman · May 20

C_Inside wrote: »

Recently I've created an alt character that I'm leveling. In case you don't know the most efficient way to level the Undaunted skill line before hitting CP is to do the weekly trial quests since you can start joining trial groups at level 10 (not to mention you get a bunch of transmutes, slaughterstones, and possibly style pages). What I've found however is that for all the talk of the ESO community being this inclusive place that is more than willing to help new players, it sure isn't willing to let them participate in any harder content (if you can even call nAA hard).

Almost every single trial group I join the leader winds up kicking me. Keep in mind, these are normal trials I'm trying to do and I'm queuing as a DD. So not a very significant role. Even if I was only providing like 4K dps it wouldn't change anything as there are no dps checks in normal trials. Most of the time I have to explain myself and even after linking several hard mode clears I still get kicked. I honestly can't imagine how hard it must be for actual new players to start doing trials when this is what I have to deal with. Nevermind how often I have to try and defend myself from the "your dps is too low for this normal base game trial that has no dps checks" crowd. Something that a new player probably won't have the confidence to do.

Speaking of new platers how do these people who kick low levels think a new player that has just gathered the courage to apply for a trial will feel? Are they going to try again with a different group or will they just go "Well I tried, I got told to ef off. Clearly raiding isn't for me". It's no secret that ESO has a problem with player retention, which is especially felt in the end game community and this sort of behavior really isn't helping the matter. I sometimes wonder how much easier it would be to find support roles if low level trials were encouraged instead of how it is right now. The group finder for trials opens up at level 10 for God's sake!

This pedantic focus on level doesn't end once you hit CP, however. Oh no. Wanna do vAA? Better hope you're at least CP2000 with fully golded gear (including the jewelry and armor) otherwise you're not stepping foot in vet trials chief. I was recently in a vHRC pug and had to argue with the raid lead and 4 other people about a CP438 player that wanted to join. Wanna know what happened at the last boss? Most of the CP2000 people that were in the group died to Shehai Storm because they didn't know to split up. Meanwhile the CP438 didn't die once.

Bottom line is I just really wish ESO as a whole encouraged low level raiding more and that the community would be more accepting of low level raiders. Most of the best gear in the game is found in trials after all and I bet many people would stick around with ESO if Minor Slayer gear wasn't this mythical, unobtainable thing that only the top 0.01% of players have.

It is suprising, given the 1-tamriel boost[edit: level-scaling] coupled with your prior knowledge ability would make your 10th level character, with crafted gear, output a decent amount of damage other than, perhaps, no ultimate while having decent survivability without slurping resources from the healer (if the usual 1 healer per nTrial). Also that players who are forming groups aren't setting limits to screen for undesirables using the quite specific tools available - surely disappointing to join a group only to be booted after the fact.

The gear issue with the sticker book is moot; it's irrelevant other than your new character (new account?) may be a gear sink rather than contributor of spare gear.

It's unfortunate that over the years a lot of the game has been closed to lower levels because of the gate-keeping of ... gate keepers. Like level limits on dlc dungeons which, I imagine, is a pain for experienced players running dungeons for skill-points. Or, again the cp limits for dlc vets which can also often exclude experienced players. And now, surprisingly, on experienced players running low level alts who would be likely to provide sufficient weight for their dd/dps slot in nTrials.

Completely agree that cp is no indicator of knowledge or ability at all.

But it's a PUG and you get what you get. I'd suggest you start your own nTrial/undaunted levelling group using the new(ish) finder and see if that works out better - maybe include in the blurb your achievements and that you encourage low levels? You know: to realise "I just really wish ESO as a whole encouraged low level raiding more" take a more pro-active role leading-by-example.

Good luck.

sarahthes · May 20

jle30303 wrote: »

I thought you couldn't even get *into* a trial until you were level 50?

To be frank, trials are not things you level up BY doing, they are things that you level up IN ORDER TO do.

Normal Hel Ra is the same difficulty as normal FG1, and takes about the same length of time.

The gatekeeping in this thread is ridiculous LMAO.

Sakiri · May 20

sarahthes wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

I thought you couldn't even get *into* a trial until you were level 50?

To be frank, trials are not things you level up BY doing, they are things that you level up IN ORDER TO do.

Normal Hel Ra is the same difficulty as normal FG1, and takes about the same length of time.

The gatekeeping in this thread is ridiculous LMAO.

Then you take them. A lot of us don't want to.

sarahthes · May 20

Sakiri wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

I thought you couldn't even get *into* a trial until you were level 50?

To be frank, trials are not things you level up BY doing, they are things that you level up IN ORDER TO do.

Normal Hel Ra is the same difficulty as normal FG1, and takes about the same length of time.

The gatekeeping in this thread is ridiculous LMAO.

Then you take them. A lot of us don't want to.

Why? I've literally never rejected anyone for a group finder pug, and with the exception of vhof or vdsr they all clear. I don't look at class or spec or anything.

Trials in this game aren't nearly as difficult as people seem to think they are, and normal trials are so easy that with the exception of minimum player requirements (i.e. must have even numbers in nmol for twins, must have 12 for naa, must have 6+1 for nhrc), you can clear them at any level. An entire group of level 10 characters, provided they were alts with CP and had matching crafted gear sets, could easily clear any normal trial.

Any gatekeeping is pure arbitrary elitism, and doesn't reflect well on the players.

Desiato · May 21

sarahthes wrote: »

Normal Hel Ra is the same difficulty as normal FG1, and takes about the same length of time.

I think perspective matters a lot here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall from the lag threads that you play in vet trial trifecta progression groups?

If I am correct, I wonder how often you're in a normal trial pug and what the circumstances are when you would be? If you have perfected gear, I imagine the only reason for you to do it would be to help a friend with a new account grind a starting trial set. Maybe if you do that, you're running the pug with at least a couple of friends?

It's different for the average player grinding normal trials I think. To them, normal trials are not like FG1. They can't carry a group like a vet trial trifecta player can. They're on the road to becoming a player like that. They have to slog it out with other players like them. Sometimes the combined dps in a normal trial group is less than what I've seen cpcharles do in a vet trial.

It is often less than 200k group dps, certainly. I'm subpar and sometimes I'm doing 30% of the group damage. And in those cases, the mechanics which many don't understand start to become relevant and the group may wipe or have much longer encounters than they hope for.

I think all the average normal trial pug wants from their teammates is a good faith effort to contribute and I don't think that's the case when one shows up sub-level 50.

ZhuJiuyin · May 21

Regarding the issue of letting low-level players enter trials, I think there are other games that may have some good ideas.

For example, in China's "Sword Heroes Fate", when a large dungeon team of 25 people has a member who is not at the maximum level or whose equipment score does not reach a certain score, the entire team will receive additional buffs and additional drops. You can carry up to 3 such low-level members.

Not only does this help newbies quickly collect equipment and learn the mechanics, but experienced players can also benefit from it. But this also has consequences, that is, some business mechanisms will be born, such as a newcomer asking 24 other people to take him into the dungeon through cash transactions. Or, the new player just does nothing and simply lies on the floor waiting to pick up equipment.

But in any case, this mechanism does allow many new players to enter the large dungeon at an early stage, and veterans also very much welcome these new players to join.

VisitHammerfell · May 21

Social guilds/less serious guilds sometimes have baby toon trial. It's fun, I solo tanked nSS at level 29 (chaos run), DPS nSO at level 32 (chaos run), and main tank nSE at level 28 (all baby toons). But these were all organized.

1. People won't know your champion level or capability. Even if you could flash some fancy title, people may want faster runs and not be dragged down by a low level doing 4k dps.
2. You shouldn't expect carries from strangers, make your own group.
3. Level Undaunted via dungeons like the rest of us.
4. Overland and crafted gear is fine, players don't need trial gear before 160. Geniune sub 160 players don't belong in PUG trials, and if they quit over being kicked, it's their fault for not doing their research first. Nobody accidentally joins a trial

"A disheartening lack of respect for other players in trials"

Nerouyn · May 21

While I truly sympathise with the OP this is something I've seen in just about every MMO I've played with sweet rewards tied to repetitive group content.

Player time is limited.

Most players understandably want to speedrun everything to maximise their rewards / time in game.

So players begin discriminating on the basis of things like CP as a means on minimising the likelihood of having team members who will slow them down.

It's not something I'd ever do but appealing players to stop doing this probably won't get you anything except sneers.

If the content was enjoyable in its own right, i.e. intrinsically rewarding, then no-one would feel like their precious time was being wasted on an activity they just want finished ASAP.

So I see this as a dev problem.

LaintalAy · May 21

Some complaints refer to the lack of a second bar. I rarely use mine and sometimes forget to put abilities on it. Does anyone check that? I've never been kicked from a trial for only using 3 abilities to deal damage. Or at all for that matter

I've been farming Nirncrux in Craglorn and watched chat requests (before group finder) for the last trial player going unanswered. So waste time assembling a full team of 'acceptable' players or waste time playing with 'unacceptable' players.
It's your choice.

Everyone gets carried to some extent, I don't see anyone bragging about soloing a trial. According to zone chat, some players will happily take your gold to carry you over some achievement line. However, no gold is on offer when the 'looking for low level' requests go out.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think most people would consider normal trials an endgame activity. Some people may not want a level 10 in a PUG but that's moreso because level 10 characters don't have skills, gear, bar swapping, etc. Not because it's endgame.

Yes, but if a level 10 char has 1600CP or more, then cleverly assigned CP points can make up some of the missing ground, as long as your few skill points are spent on the right abilities for the role.

I'll bet that there's no check of HOW a player distributes CP points.

Sakiri wrote: »

Way I look at it, my group, I can bring whomever I want. And I do not want a level 10 in my group. Give me one benefit to having a low level player in my trial group.

You can have a good laugh watching them fail and be subsequently kicked.
You can be mildly surprised when they don't fail

There's two.

spartaxoxo · May 21

LaintalAy wrote: »

Yes, but if a level 10 char has 1600CP or more, then cleverly assigned CP points can make up some of the missing ground, as long as your few skill points are spent on the right abilities for the role. I'll bet that there's no check of HOW a player distributes CP points.

This is true. I've also run with low levels and had a good time in my social guilds. I don't really care that much for normal trials because they're pretty easy. I'm just saying why PUG restrictions might be a little harder than a guild groups. You don't much about the other players in pick up groups.

DonHardstyle · May 21

I dont mind below 50 chars in a normal trial. Especially not when there is some cp behind them. I do look up weirdly when i see it tho. For me there would be 0 reason to kick someone.

I did experience the same in the past when i had my sudden urge to make a tank and pugged some stuff at lvl 20. Its realy depending on the group if you can stay or not.
Best bet is to join a guild, they mostly are more open to this. Especially when its a teaching run.

Rowjoh · May 21

I'm still twitching like a pig that has just spotted Mrs pig on a hot day, after being 'tolerated' and completing vet Sunspire.

The abuse banter in chat makes bullying desirable.

Never again.

moderatelyfatman · May 21

WIth all due respect: how hard is it to get a character to level 50?

alpha_synuclein · May 21

I get that bashing on supposed gatekeepers is always in fashion and I'm not saying that gatekeeping does not exist, but is this really a thread about new players experience?

When I was level 10 and starting to play I was trying to figure out how my abilities work and where skillpoints come from. I didn't even know trials exist. Considering how solo oriented ESO is I would assume we are not having tons of players that get to level ten and say "time to go raidin".

Seems more like OP found an unusual way of powerleveling and got upset when others didn't comply...

vsrs_au · May 21

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

I get that bashing on supposed gatekeepers is always in fashion and I'm not saying that gatekeeping does not exist, but is this really a thread about new players experience?

When I was level 10 and starting to play I was trying to figure out how my abilities work and where skillpoints come from. I didn't even know trials exist. Considering how solo oriented ESO is I would assume we are not having tons of players that get to level ten and say "time to go raidin".

Seems more like OP found an unusual way of powerleveling and got upset when others didn't comply...

The original poster wasn't in the position of figuring out how the game works, though: they clearly mentioned in their original post that they were levelling an alt character.