Furnishing Plans - Drop Rate / Cooldown : Question

CGPsaint · May 18

Jaraal wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I feel like the drop rates for Necrom have been lowered recently. I used to get a purple plan fairly often when I’d go there, albeit a base game purple, or one of those purple banners, but I haven’t got any purples in months.

I'll have to do a couple of runs through Sailenmora Crypt and see what's up.

NoTimeToWait wrote: »

For me, there is only one known case of time gated drops: Vvardenfell motif pages (Hlaalu, Redoran, Telvanni). I spent hundreds of hours total on multiple (10+) characters farming those motif pages when they released, and I am sure there is a per-character timer on those drops.

I also farmed furnishing recipes and I never encountered similar limitations there.

I would be interested in seeing some videos where you're able to pull a purple furnishing plan from a container, and then pull a second purple furnishing plan from another container within the same farming run. I haven't been able to do it within the same 8 hours.

I've done this multiple times (outside of the Homemaker passive) in the Necrom Underway. Since there are no NPCs, you can loot all the urns without fear of getting a bounty, and it's by far the fastest way to level Legerdemain, as you can just enter the Outlaws Refuge, sell/launder, and then exit right back out to a fresh set of urns.

I would love to see a video of you getting (2) purple furnishing plans from (2) separate containers on the same character on the same day. I have farmed containers for more hours than I care to admit and I have never been able to do so on the same character. I'm not guessing. I know for a fact that I've never done it, and that includes farming Necrom Underway.

You seem to have your mind made up that it's not possible, so it's pointless for anyone to try and prove otherwise. If you won't take people's word who have done it on multiple occasions, then it's unlikely that you'd believe video evidence, either.

I'm simply asking for proof that it's possible. I've looted thousands of purple furnishing plans, so it's not like I don't have actual experience with drops/drop rates in ESO. I've read plenty of posts where people ask about drop rates and cool downs, and one thing that I've never seen anywhere is proof that (2) purple plans can drop from (2) separate containers on the same character on the same day.

sleepy_worm · May 19

I went to Necrom Underway today to see how thievery containers behave (lootable containers that only drop stolen items). I was mostly just leveling Legerdemain and keeping a LootLog of drops, so there was no real system other than switching characters every so often. I found some stuff that agrees with my previous observations and a lot that contradicts them.

First, it seems like white plans have a similar mechanic in thievery containers as non-thief containers. They only start dropping after a blue or purple plan drops.

Second, I got a blue plan 57 seconds after another blue plan (Blueprint: Khajit Tent, Mercantile -> Praxis: Necrom Memorial, Large) on the same character. So for thievery containers, I have seen evidence that a hard cooldown is not present for blue plans.

Third, I saw one instance of green plans dropping within <5 minutes of each other, suggesting that for thievery containers, there is no hard cooldown for green plans as well.

Fourth, it is even more apparent in Necrom Underway that there is a drop in percent of containers that spawn full as you loot more and reset the instance. This is most likely a gradual decay based on number of containers looted in a certain amount of time up to the reset of the instance. For now, this evidence is anecdotal other than the snippet of data I posted from Reachwind Depths last week. (I plan to test this hypothesis more conclusively and might even try to make a graph.)

I also noticed some weird things with timestamps in LootLog because containers are so close together in Necrom Underway. I'm not sure if Homemaker was kicking in for certain drops or not, so in the future I am just going to unslot this passive and disable Jack-of-All-Trades. It's just an added variable I don't think I can reasonably account for given the low granularity of LootLog's timestamps.

Anyway, I'm happy to be wrong. If anyone has any data similar to the above for non-thievery containers, I'd love to see it! I'll be in Reachwind, farming plans that aren't worth much anymore in the meantime.

Djennku · May 19

@sleepy_worm Might I point out that you are on different toons when each plan blue drops, aside from an instance where both plans are of separate plan types/styles.

sleepy_worm · May 19

Yes, my conclusions are entirely based on what drops for that character. This is why I only mentioned one incident of blues dropping within a few minutes of each other.

sleepy_worm · May 19

While I was testing the container decay, I kept LootLog going. So here is a small amount of data from Reachwind Depths (a zone with regular containers, not thievery containers).

Notice that blues drop at least an hour apart and greens drop almost exactly 10 minutes apart. This is consistent with my previous observations of non-thief containers. It is also entirely possible that Necrom itself is the variable, not thievery versus non-thief. So at some point in the future, I'll test the inn in Fargrave to see how it behaves.

sleepy_worm · May 19

Here is my data for lootable containers per instance as I kept farming. The vertical number is lootable containers and the maximum should be 9 (I know there are technically 10 containers in Reachwind Depths living area, but the jewelry box has an incredibly small target box for looting and takes forever to actually find). The horizontal number is instance number. I didn't track time, but each instance takes about the same amount of time to run through and loot.

I also logged out and back in after this run was finished and the average number of containers per instance was 1.5 (sample size 5). I logged out and then back in 10 minutes later and the average was 3.8 (sample size 5). I logged out and back in after a total of 20 minutes from when the run was finished and the average was 6.8 (sample size 5), which is pretty close to the starting average. So this mechanic is a bit more forgiving than I thought. You only have to stop looting for about 20 minutes for everything to go back to normal.

Jaraal · May 19

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Fourth, it is even more apparent in Necrom Underway that there is a drop in percent of containers that spawn full as you loot more and reset the instance. This is most likely a gradual decay based on number of containers looted in a certain amount of time up to the reset of the instance.

Yes, I've noticed this behavior in Necrom in general, not just the Underway. The more you steal, the less containers in general are populated, and that includes urns, dressers, nightstands, and the like. And it doesn't matter how you reset it... opening instanced doors, porting to an unowned house, porting to a different zone and back, or logging out and back in... the decay timer remains, and less and less containers are populated.

I haven't done any in-depth studies to try and find out how long it takes to reset the drop rate to normal, but it's definitely a thing. I wonder if this seemingly Necrom specific mechanic is in place because of the sheer number of lootable containers.

Djennku · May 19

Jaraal wrote: »

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Fourth, it is even more apparent in Necrom Underway that there is a drop in percent of containers that spawn full as you loot more and reset the instance. This is most likely a gradual decay based on number of containers looted in a certain amount of time up to the reset of the instance.

Yes, I've noticed this behavior in Necrom in general, not just the Underway. The more you steal, the less containers in general are populated, and that includes urns, dressers, nightstands, and the like. And it doesn't matter how you reset it... opening instanced doors, porting to an unowned house, porting to a different zone and back, or logging out and back in... the decay timer remains, and less and less containers are populated.

I haven't done any in-depth studies to try and find out how long it takes to reset the drop rate to normal, but it's definitely a thing. I wonder if this seemingly Necrom specific mechanic is in place because of the sheer number of lootable containers.

15 mins

LaintalAy · May 19

barney2525 wrote: »

I got a rock

Is that something Charlie Brown once said?

Jaraal · May 19

Djennku wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Fourth, it is even more apparent in Necrom Underway that there is a drop in percent of containers that spawn full as you loot more and reset the instance. This is most likely a gradual decay based on number of containers looted in a certain amount of time up to the reset of the instance.

Yes, I've noticed this behavior in Necrom in general, not just the Underway. The more you steal, the less containers in general are populated, and that includes urns, dressers, nightstands, and the like. And it doesn't matter how you reset it... opening instanced doors, porting to an unowned house, porting to a different zone and back, or logging out and back in... the decay timer remains, and less and less containers are populated.

I haven't done any in-depth studies to try and find out how long it takes to reset the drop rate to normal, but it's definitely a thing. I wonder if this seemingly Necrom specific mechanic is in place because of the sheer number of lootable containers.

15 mins

Do you have to leave the zone for 15 mins? Because I've stolen for hours in the city and the containers never fully repopulate to the level they were when I first arrived. And that's even if I stay away from certain sections for an hour. The only way I can get them back to full is to switch characters. But even then, if I swap back to the previous character, there will still be fewer lootables.

Sakiri · May 19

Guildmate farms patterns for sale. Denies a cooldown. I've gotten back to back purples myself. Never ones that sell for a lot though.

Also, the empty container thing exists. Went through the pd in blackreach and eventually nothing had anything in it.

sleepy_worm · May 20

I ran 3 characters in Fargrave and 3 in Galen, testing the thievery containers there. The results match the cooldown times observed in Reachwind Depths (non-thief containers) That is, 10 minutes for green plans and no second blue plan in under an hour. White plans started dropping only after a blue or purple plan did first.

Anyway, it looks like Necrom, specifically, has different behavior. As recently as Galen, thievery and non-thief containers both had the same cooldowns. There is something else going on with Necrom. (This might explain the relatively low market value of purple Necrom Banner plans?)

Jaraal · June 10

CGPsaint wrote: »

I'm simply asking for proof that it's possible. I've looted thousands of purple furnishing plans, so it's not like I don't have actual experience with drops/drop rates in ESO. I've read plenty of posts where people ask about drop rates and cool downs, and one thing that I've never seen anywhere is proof that (2) purple plans can drop from (2) separate containers on the same character on the same day.

Here is the proof you seek. Approximately 90 minutes between purple furnishing plans on the same character.

MreeBiPolar · June 10

Jaraal wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

I'm simply asking for proof that it's possible. I've looted thousands of purple furnishing plans, so it's not like I don't have actual experience with drops/drop rates in ESO. I've read plenty of posts where people ask about drop rates and cool downs, and one thing that I've never seen anywhere is proof that (2) purple plans can drop from (2) separate containers on the same character on the same day.

Here is the proof you seek. Approximately 90 minutes between purple furnishing plans on the same character.

Actually a sliver under 90 minutes, which sets the upper realistic limit for the cooldown -- if it even exists -- to an hour at most.

Jaraal · June 10

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

I'm simply asking for proof that it's possible. I've looted thousands of purple furnishing plans, so it's not like I don't have actual experience with drops/drop rates in ESO. I've read plenty of posts where people ask about drop rates and cool downs, and one thing that I've never seen anywhere is proof that (2) purple plans can drop from (2) separate containers on the same character on the same day.

Here is the proof you seek. Approximately 90 minutes between purple furnishing plans on the same character.

Actually a sliver under 90 minutes, which sets the upper realistic limit for the cooldown -- if it even exists -- to an hour at most.

Using this logic, and my documented results, one could also say that any cooldown for blue furnishing plans would be less than or equal to 100 seconds.

sleepy_worm · June 10

Jaraal wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Here is the proof you seek. Approximately 90 minutes between purple furnishing plans on the same character.

Were you killing and looting enemies. I ask because I think Daedric plans (the two plans which dropped within the proposed cooldown) drop from enemies. I have never gotten Daedric plans when farming containers, but I get them occasionally when running certain dungeons or public dungeons with lots of Daedra mobs.

Jaraal · June 11

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Were you killing and looting enemies. I ask because I think Daedric plans (the two plans which dropped within the proposed cooldown) drop from enemies. I have never gotten Daedric plans when farming containers, but I get them occasionally when running certain dungeons or public dungeons with lots of Daedra mobs.

Container looting only, no killing other than the Mirrormoor incursion.

Wouldn't matter either way, if there were a cooldown on furnishing plans. Some people are convinced that there is a hard cap of one purple (or 2 if Homemaker procs) per character per day. I can say from personal experience that that is not the case.

MreeBiPolar · June 11

Jaraal wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

I'm simply asking for proof that it's possible. I've looted thousands of purple furnishing plans, so it's not like I don't have actual experience with drops/drop rates in ESO. I've read plenty of posts where people ask about drop rates and cool downs, and one thing that I've never seen anywhere is proof that (2) purple plans can drop from (2) separate containers on the same character on the same day.

Here is the proof you seek. Approximately 90 minutes between purple furnishing plans on the same character.

Actually a sliver under 90 minutes, which sets the upper realistic limit for the cooldown -- if it even exists -- to an hour at most.

Using this logic, and my documented results, one could also say that any cooldown for blue furnishing plans would be less than or equal to 100 seconds.

Yet the myth lives on.

sleepy_worm · June 12

Finally managed to reproduce it! This is with Homemaker on, but the two purples were from separate containers.

freespirit · June 12

sleepy_worm wrote: »

Finally managed to reproduce it! This is with Homemaker on, but the two purples were from separate containers.

It's also nice that in that one set of results you also dispel any thought that purple recipes/motifs affect purple furnishing plan drops in any way at all!

CGPsaint · June 16

Jaraal wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

I'm simply asking for proof that it's possible. I've looted thousands of purple furnishing plans, so it's not like I don't have actual experience with drops/drop rates in ESO. I've read plenty of posts where people ask about drop rates and cool downs, and one thing that I've never seen anywhere is proof that (2) purple plans can drop from (2) separate containers on the same character on the same day.

Here is the proof you seek. Approximately 90 minutes between purple furnishing plans on the same character.

This is exactly what I've been requesting. There are so many posts regarding loot drops/cool-downs and since ZoS is not exactly forthcoming to clear things up, it's up to the community to do so. I absolutely appreciate you for taking the time to document and share that there is indeed not a cool-down, which makes me much more likely to keep farming than to just mindlessly root through containers not knowing if it's even possible to get what I'm looking for.

Also, RNGeesus could have at least graced you with at least one decent plan!

Adaarye · June 16

Go to West Weald. Find a place where you can loot containers, leave, come back, loot containers, leave and so on.

Once you start getting white plans, switch to another character. Rinse and repeat.

You can keep going but all that will drop will be white and green.

I don't need anyone to tell me if it's so or not, lol. I've "lived it"

MreeBiPolar · June 16

Adaarye wrote: »

Go to West Weald. Find a place where you can loot containers, leave, come back, loot containers, leave and so on.

Once you start getting white plans, switch to another character. Rinse and repeat.

You can keep going but all that will drop will be white and green.

I don't need anyone to tell me if it's so or not, lol. I've "lived it"

The only question is, why do YOU need to tell everyone it is so, especially in the face of multiple screenshots proving otherwise posted?

sleepy_worm · June 17

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

The only question is, why do YOU need to tell everyone it is so, especially in the face of multiple screenshots proving otherwise posted?

They're actually providing good advice. There are several anti-farming mechanics in place that make your first green and blue much more likely than subsequent ones. I would be surprised if the same weren't true for purple plans. A few anecdotes here and there don't disprove what my systematic testing shows and what tens of hours of in-game experience makes clear. It's one thing to be skeptical of specific claims you have evidence against, but it becomes its own logical fallacy when it is your automatic response to any data or claim that doesn't fit your assumptions. You have anecdotal evidence that a hard cooldown doesn't exist, not that it's a good idea to stay on one character to farm plans.

So if anyone is trying to farm furniture plans and is having a hard time of it, yes, switching characters after you start getting white plans is solid advice. You also might consider doing something else on your account after a purple or two. It won't prevent you from getting more good plans, but it makes containers with any furniture in them dip from 20% to something like 5% for some time, so it will take longer to find any plans regardless of rarity.

MreeBiPolar · June 17

sleepy_worm wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

The only question is, why do YOU need to tell everyone it is so, especially in the face of multiple screenshots proving otherwise posted?

They're actually providing good advice. There are several anti-farming mechanics in place that make your first green and blue much more likely than subsequent ones. I would be surprised if the same weren't true for purple plans. A few anecdotes here and there don't disprove what my systematic testing shows and what tens of hours of in-game experience makes clear. It's one thing to be skeptical of specific claims you have evidence against, but it becomes its own logical fallacy when it is your automatic response to any data or claim that doesn't fit your assumptions. You have anecdotal evidence that a hard cooldown doesn't exist, not that it's a good idea to stay on one character to farm plans.

So if anyone is trying to farm furniture plans and is having a hard time of it, yes, switching characters after you start getting white plans is solid advice. You also might consider doing something else on your account after a purple or two. It won't prevent you from getting more good plans, but it makes containers with any furniture in them dip from 20% to something like 5% for some time, so it will take longer to find any plans regardless of rarity.

I don't mean that advice (whether it works or not), but the subsequent statement which actually is what you describe here as the logical fallacy -- "don't tell me whether this is right wrong, but *I* am going to tell you".

(And the one above it claiming that nothing but green and white will drop when it's been disproven -- even if more greens and whites start dropping, blues and purples still keep dropping. Just with the low probability per se, it usually takes a long time after the previous drop -- but then it also usually takes a significant time from the start of farming, too.)

sleepy_worm · June 17

Here's a little over an hour on one character.

...

Here's a little over an hour, switching characters about every ten minutes. (The most recent 6 screenshots I have from my green cooldown testing.)

These results are consistent and repeatable. I want to make it abundantly clear to anyone curious that switching characters will absolutely get you more blues and purples than staying on one character. The drop rate for purples is actually quite high if you are avoiding the anti-farming mechanics. Nitpicking people who are giving decent advice does the community a disservice. I get that some people are invested in a very specific point about cooldowns, but do not let it muddy the waters here.

If someone is struggling to farm the new furniture plans and getting frustrated, do not -- and I mean this -- do NOT listen to people saying it is "only RNG" or that switching characters is not necessary. You need to do certain specific things to efficiently farm furniture plans and anyone saying this is not the case is spreading misinformation (at best).

Sync01 · June 17

Cooldowns on furniture may be a speculation, but it's a well-founded one.
It's been tested over and over again by probably thousands of players by now and consistently turn up similar results.

From what I've seen those who say there are no cooldowns tend to either be confused about the source (overland containers, harrowstorms etc), the type of motif (for example style motifs, furnishing motifs and recipes), character vs account cooldowns, or assume that if someone once looted two purple furnishing plans once in a row it must mean there are no restrictions what so ever.

It's pretty safe to say that there is a soft cooldown on getting furnishing plans from overland containers, meaning it's not impossible for a character to loot a furnishing plan of the same colour within the cooldown but it's highly unlikely.

ShadowPaladin · June 17

Just out of curiosity. Has anyone ever thought about the possibility that instead of soft or hard cooldown timers, there are only different RNGs stacked on one another?

For example:

First RNG... Is a container (eg. Nightstand, Backpack, or smth. else) filled with loot and therefore lootable.
Second RNG... How many slots are available for loot, with one slot guaranteed, a second one with 50% or higher of a chance, a third one with 15% or more of a chance and so on (there is also a cap on how many slots are available, depending for example on the container and if existing, its rarity).
Third RNG... What loottable will be used for each slot (eg. consumable one with food, lockpicks, etc.; furniture plans; armor and weapons; treasures; etc.).
Fourth RNG... The loot generated from each table, for each slot, with chances accordingly to the rarity (white = high chance, green = moderate chance, blue = rare chance, purple = extrem rare chance, gold = extremly small chance).

In addition to that, on top, there is also a chance diminisher variable, which decreases your chances from X % to Y %, after certain conditions are met. Regarding ALL of those RNGs!

The reason why I am asking is, because this idea crossed my mind after I farmed in West Weald at the Outcast Inn a few days ago for 30min and got at first 5-6 white plans, then a purple plan, after that a few green ones, mixed with blue ones inbetween and at the end white ones again.

Everything mentioned in here, with the possible timers didn't seem to apply. At least that was my impression.

sleepy_worm · June 17

ShadowPaladin wrote: »

First RNG... Is a container (eg. Nightstand, Backpack, or smth. else) filled with loot and therefore lootable.

Second RNG... How many slots are available for loot, with one slot guaranteed, a second one with 50% or higher of a chance, a third one with 15% or more of a chance and so on (there is also a cap on how many slots are available, depending for example on the container and if existing, its rarity).

Third RNG... What loottable will be used for each slot (eg. consumable one with food, lockpicks, etc.; furniture plans; armor and weapons; treasures; etc.).

Fourth RNG... The loot generated from each table, for each slot, with chances accordingly to the rarity (white = high chance, green = moderate chance, blue = rare chance, purple = extrem rare chance, gold = extremly small chance).

I definitely think this is the case.

I have tested #1 a bit and even made a fairly ugly graph about it. It seems like this is a character-specific penalty that goes away completely after about 15-20 minutes.

I've also sort of tested #3 to an extent (I only ran the numbers for "contains furniture T/F" not any other kind of item) and found that there's an account-wide penalty after blue (dropping from 20% chance of furniture to 10% ish) and also after purple (dropping even further to about 3%). However, I did not test how long this penalty remained. I'd be surprised if it lasted more than an hour, but honestly I have no clue.

I haven't looked at your second point and it's pretty interesting to think about. But I probably don't have it in me to give that the attention it requires. Maybe someday.

I think "soft cooldowns" partially explains #4, but there's no realistic way to test purple or gold (Imperial motif) without spending an incredible amount of time running around in circles. I have a lot of data right now for green items (recipes and furniture recipes), and not enough on blue things (racial motifs, furniture plans, recipes). But having the data and putting it into a spreadsheet are two very different things. This stuff takes time. Hopefully I can shed some light on the more common items in the near future.

In short, I think all of the things you mentioned are probably part of this. Another thing that is relevant to people farming is getting a West Weald plan versus a base game one. This is probably a very simple mechanic, though. (Flat ratio? Static pool of possibilities?)

ShadowPaladin · June 17

sleepy_worm wrote: »

In short, I think all of the things you mentioned are probably part of this. Another thing that is relevant to people farming is getting a West Weald plan versus a base game one. This is probably a very simple mechanic, though. (Flat ratio? Static pool of possibilities?)

That is something I totally overlooked. It raises the question, are there Zone specific loottables a RNG system chooses between for furniture plans and other stuff (eg. treasure maps), before the other RNG system chooses the rarity or only one big general one?

If there is, this would mean we could / would have at least 5 RNG systems stacked on each other.