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The Style Page Grind is hurting me

JoeCapricorn
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such a low chance for a limited time item... it is disheartening
I see other people get it so I continue to grind
I think "maybe the next one will be the one"

over and over

it's 2:30 AM

my hands are sore, I may have injured them
I did not set out to play this evening until my hands hurt.
I did not set out to stay up to crazy hours while an ear infection rages in my left ear
but I keep going

at some point my body will tell me to stop.

but then it all starts again tomorrow... and the day after that...

YOU REALLY NEED TO MAKE THESE STYLE PAGES DROP MORE OFTEN NOW
I simp for vampire lords and Glemyos Wildhorn
  • JoeCapricorn
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    hey, you can just delete this thread since the very next box had the Sunna-ra replica thingy

    I'm relaly tired
    I simp for vampire lords and Glemyos Wildhorn
  • Grizzbeorn
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    at some point my body will tell me to stop.

    Ummm... It's already doing that.

    You said your hands are hurting. That is your body telling you to stop.
    So stop.
    And take a break.

    Yes, the drop rates are abysmally low, and the grind sucks, but it's not gonna be ZOS's fault if you "damage" yourself.
    No one has forced you to push yourself beyond your limits. That's a choice YOU made.
      PC/NA Warden Main
    • JoeCapricorn
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      There is still the impulse to go on.

      And if they raised the drop rates for these, it wouldn't be nearly as aggravating. I know some who were grinding much longer than I did, so getting it in only 77 bosses (and 85 yesterday and 60 the day before, with Barbas' helm coming at the 30wb mark) I "lucked" out.

      It's a relief to be free of that grind. I might tackle the Summerset one, but I might not. It's my choice.

      But I still feel that urge to be a completionist.

      I got time tomorrow to space out my grinds so I'm not doing them for 7 hours straight.

      And I see a doctor about the ear thing tomorrow.
      I simp for vampire lords and Glemyos Wildhorn
    • colossalvoids
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      You can do whatever you want obviously but on a second think about is some cosmetic thing that isn't tied to achievement points even worth all this time, would you personally even use it and if the company that made drops like that and the whole celebration system like that needs a pat on a back in form of people actually doing all of this with their time?

      I'm a completion freak also in a sense, but there's always should be some checks in place to not go overboard.
    • Carcamongus
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      I agree the drop rates are awful and the devs should make them less awful. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. I understand you want the pages, same as me and many other players, but, please, take a break. While I don't blame people for grinding, I must say nothing in this game is worth an injury.
      Imperial DK and Necro tank. PC/NA
      "Nothing is so bad that it can't get any worse." (Brazilian saying)
    • Grizzbeorn
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      But I still feel that urge to be a completionist.

      Oh, I get that. I have 4/5 pages, and I'm still trying for the Sunna'rah page, even though it's a style I most likely will never use.
      I'm just saying that it isn't worth injuring yourself. Grind in moderation. 7 hours straight isn't in moderation, especially if you're feeling physically hurt by the process.
      Edited by Grizzbeorn on April 23, 2024 7:12AM
        PC/NA Warden Main
      • amig186
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        Sounds like gambling addiction. I would not even attempt the Summerset geyser farm if I were you, it isn't worth it. I don't want to open Pandora's box here, but maybe try the fishing instead, odds seem to be better there.
        PC EU
      • Drammanoth
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        amig186 wrote: »
        Sounds like gambling addiction. I would not even attempt the Summerset geyser farm if I were you, it isn't worth it. I don't want to open Pandora's box here, but maybe try the fishing instead, odds seem to be better there.
        MMORPGs are made to be addictive. This fact is something people are completely oblivious of, or refuse to acknowledge, in which case this is a dead giveaway it is an additiction.

        It's good people mention this, because inducing FOMO is a marketing strategy. Thus it is up to primarily one's strong will and others mentioning this to exercise caution.
        Edited by Drammanoth on April 23, 2024 8:42AM
      • JoeCapricorn
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        Just letting you all know that my hands are fine, my ear issue is unrelated to this whole endeavor (and they will be fine too!), and that I did the Summerset geyser grind and got the Ulvor page, the last one, after 18 geysers.

        But my point here is, this should be something that drops after about 25 runs, something that isn't frustrating to get - some players might have underestimated how low the drop rate, so they go in thinking it would take 25 dolmens to get Staff of Worms but as they continue running dolmens 100 later they still don't have it. But they see other people post in group or zone chat that they got the Staff of Worms page and so it convinces them to continue for just a little while longer.

        Time can slip away in that instance, like it did for me last night. I got the Sunna-rah page after my 77th world boss done just yesterday alone. After opening up all 77 Anniversary boxes, I stuffed the motifs and recipes into my bank and flopped into bed and I was out. I don't have work today to worry about anyway, and one of the reasons it took a lot of time is because I camped at one of the world bosses and between kills I decided to tackle all of my other IRL responsibilities. I fed all of my mantises last night, doing a couple between WB spawns, and I decided to start that process at 11 pm... because I took my time with each mantis it was around 1:30 that I finished them all (24 mantises)

        Today I went in knowing that if I didn't get the page by around 3:30 I'd take a break, rest my hands, run some errands, and come back to it later tonight.

        And I know ESO is designed to always have something for players to do, but this is just one of those rare instances where it prodded more players than usual to get into long and frustrating grinds. I've been working on the Master Fisher achievement the past 10 years, chipping away at it slowly, but that's because there is no time limit in doing so. I do it when I feel like fishing in game. Sometimes when I tackle that I get a few zones done and call it a night.

        For events, ideally, that's how it should be as well. If there is a portion that requires daily participation in some small degree (like the Jubilee mount), that is fine in my view. That rewards consistent engagement. It does not take hours to get a golden Anniversary box each day. And I still find that I'm going to have more event tickets than I need by the end of it all.

        I know this event was marred with the PTS issue, but in the end I still had fun. Peace!
        I simp for vampire lords and Glemyos Wildhorn
      • HatchetHaro
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        This is a lesson to all aspiring and current game developers out there:

        This is the power you have over your players. Use it responsibly; don't abuse it like ZOS is doing so with this event.
        Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

        17 Argonians

        6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
      • Grizzbeorn
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        This is a lesson to all aspiring and current game developers out there:

        This is the power you have over your players. Use it responsibly; don't abuse it like ZOS is doing so with this event.

        So the player isn't responsible for how they choose to play the game?
        Ok, then.
          PC/NA Warden Main
        • CrashTest
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          This event is sad.
        • HatchetHaro
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          Grizzbeorn wrote: »
          This is a lesson to all aspiring and current game developers out there:

          This is the power you have over your players. Use it responsibly; don't abuse it like ZOS is doing so with this event.

          So the player isn't responsible for how they choose to play the game?
          Ok, then.

          So, you're giving a free pass to any game developer who uses abusive and unethical and horrifically effective marketing tactics to drive up sales and player numbers?

          You do you, pal.
          Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

          17 Argonians

          6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
        • Desiato
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          Whatever should or should not be, stop doing this to yourself! It's just a game and these are non-essential items that should have a minimal impact on your life. This isn't healthy on multiple levels.

          Edited by Desiato on April 23, 2024 7:13PM
          spending a year dead for tax reasons
        • Grizzbeorn
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          Grizzbeorn wrote: »
          This is a lesson to all aspiring and current game developers out there:

          This is the power you have over your players. Use it responsibly; don't abuse it like ZOS is doing so with this event.

          So the player isn't responsible for how they choose to play the game?
          Ok, then.

          So, you're giving a free pass to any game developer who uses abusive and unethical and horrifically effective marketing tactics to drive up sales and player numbers?

          You do you, pal.

          No. I'm saying those "tactics" don't absolve the player of all responsibility.
          Grinding until one is injured is not on the company, but the player.
            PC/NA Warden Main
          • Desiato
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            CrashTest wrote: »
            This event is sad.

            What's sad to me is people letting an obsession with 4 rare style items out of dozens of style items seriously affect them.

            One would think reading these forums these items were headliners for the event. But in reality, they were mentioned in the middle of the news page announcing the event. ZOS probably saw them as low effort (to implement) throw-ins for players who grind every gift box event.

            Of course people are responsible for their own health regardless of what ZOS does. IMO, a lot of people have totally lost perspective. Let it go, it should be no big deal. If someone feels miserable because of this event, it's on them, not ZOS. Not everything a game dev does will work out as we prefer and we have to have the skills to handle that kind of disappointment in life.
            spending a year dead for tax reasons
          • HatchetHaro
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            Grizzbeorn wrote: »
            Grizzbeorn wrote: »
            This is a lesson to all aspiring and current game developers out there:

            This is the power you have over your players. Use it responsibly; don't abuse it like ZOS is doing so with this event.

            So the player isn't responsible for how they choose to play the game?
            Ok, then.

            So, you're giving a free pass to any game developer who uses abusive and unethical and horrifically effective marketing tactics to drive up sales and player numbers?

            You do you, pal.

            No. I'm saying those "tactics" don't absolve the player of all responsibility.
            Grinding until one is injured is not on the company, but the player.

            That is a valid point. Physical health (while consumers still have control over them) are the sole responsibility of the consumers.

            My point still stands, however. The game developers' design choices are still influencing them.

            The psychological realm is where game developers hold the most power and responsibility. That is where they can give players an adrenaline-filled combat experience that is fun and fulfilling, or make the players dread losing out on valuable time-gated loot.
            Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it

            17 Argonians

            6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained
          • code65536
            code65536
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            Grizzbeorn wrote: »
            Grizzbeorn wrote: »
            This is a lesson to all aspiring and current game developers out there:

            This is the power you have over your players. Use it responsibly; don't abuse it like ZOS is doing so with this event.

            So the player isn't responsible for how they choose to play the game?
            Ok, then.

            So, you're giving a free pass to any game developer who uses abusive and unethical and horrifically effective marketing tactics to drive up sales and player numbers?

            You do you, pal.

            No. I'm saying those "tactics" don't absolve the player of all responsibility.
            Grinding until one is injured is not on the company, but the player.

            There is a reason gambling is illegal in most jurisdictions.

            There is a reason restrictions are in place on the sale of addictive substances.

            Part of it is the player's fault for taking the poison, but the supplier of the poison bears part of the responsibility, too.
            Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU

            Dungeons and Trials:
            Personal best scores:
            Dungeon trifectas:
            Media: YouTubeTwitch
          • Grizzbeorn
            Grizzbeorn
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            code65536 wrote: »
            the supplier of the poison bears part of the responsibility, too.

            I never said they didn't.

            I have an addictive personality. I'm a recovering alcoholic, and I had a prior 4-year addiction to opiates (20 years ago), that started with oral tablets and progressed to intravenous use.
            Yeah, Big Pharma still produces opiates and the medical industry pushes them on their patients, and alcohol is very accessible.
            But the companies don't control my personal choices. It's my responsibility to stay away from all of it if I want to stay clean.
              PC/NA Warden Main
            • Elvenheart
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              This is a lesson to all aspiring and current game developers out there:

              This is the power you have over your players. Use it responsibly; don't abuse it like ZOS is doing so with this event.

              I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

              I am sure games are set up in such a way and in TV commercials advertising is done that is designed to manipulate the consumer into achieving the goals of the company with the product, namely play the game or buy the item. I’m also sure that the tactics used are developed based on multitudes of psychological studies that cost companies lots of money. And I am sure the tactics range from obvious ones like things which invoke nostalgia (going back to Skingrad!), patriotic imagery used in commercials designed to subconsciously make you feel like buying the product is a patriotic thing to do, or an abundance of 80s music playing throughout the commercials subtly referring us back to what we may see as a happier, simpler time through rose colored glasses, to more subconscious unethical tactics designed to capitalize on peoples’ weaknesses like FOMO. I’m sure that there are dedicated teams at most major companies working out these strategies using data from all sorts of sources, including psychological data on how the consumers’ brains function and react to things.

              And just knowing this, doesn’t make one immune to falling for these manipulations. We have no choice but to have to function in a world where practically everything is designed to manipulate us in some way. All we can do is do our best to be aware of and resist these manipulations, but we don’t always win. And in those times we don’t win, it is not necessarily the consumer’s fault for not realizing what was happening, or as some might say, not being strong enough to make a different choice. Those times, it’s just that the tactics used to manipulate our emotions and desires worked.
            • SeaGtGruff
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              No power over me, I guess.

              I engaged in small amounts of grinding for the pages despite not really caring about style pages-- any style pages, since I don't use outfits-- and enjoyed some of the dolmen grinding in less-popular zones for a while, but the Vvardenfell group boss grinding and Summerset geyser grinding was the opposite of fun for me.

              Not because of drop rates on pages I don't care about, but because of the huge numbers of grotesquely overpowered players melting the mobs and bosses so fast that I could barely get a hit in before everything was dead. How any of you think that's fun is beyond me. And then players complain about how everything melts just by looking at it, and wax wistfully about some other MMO they played where fights actually last longer than two seconds and how wonderful it was to experience that for a change. The irony isn't even funny.

              Several times with the dolmens I was literally the only player there-- depending on the zone and the time of day-- and I had fun soloing the dolmens just for the fights, but I won't do that for an entire night, day after day, no matter what the reward coffer might possibly contain.

              And normally I have a lot of fun riding around Vvardenfell soloing or duoing all of the group bosses, but during this event it is the most obnoxiously unfun thing in the game for me, and not because of ZOS or the RNG of drop rates on style pages I'm never going to use, anyway. I can't wait for this event to be over so I can actually fight the bosses again.

              Players say they hate grinding so much, and they blame this grind on the fact that these are limited-time rewards. Yet even if the rewards aren't limited-time rewards-- such as leads for antiquities, or specific pieces of gear-- players still grind for them. It is truly baffling to me why players can't see what they're doing to themselves.
              I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
            • SilverBride
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              hey, you can just delete this thread since the very next box had the Sunna-ra replica thingy

              I'm relaly tired

              Don't delete this. This is still true for many of us.
              PCNA
            • jtm1018
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              Drops, drops never change.
              It is grindy as hell, to keep you playing.
              I gave up grinding for style motifs, just drop it.
            • Nerouyn
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              I gave up on the special special ones.

              Just because I was dolmen grinding to level new arcanists I ended up with the Mannimarco staff twice, which I have absolutely no interest in.

              But I did find it interesting that I got it very quickly on one account - easily in under half an hour - and a very long full day on another.

              I feel terrible for the people who really want these things and either aren't getting them or possibly don't even have the time to try.

              I made some effort for the Summerset and Vvardenfell ones but was missing out on both event boxes and xp in both cases.

              I did quite a bit of fishing to get those Necrom achievements and no luck. So I don't think I'll bother wasting any more time on that.

              And when I saw the event had been extended, I nearly groaned.

              Cos burnout.

              Having not played for a while I truly do appreciate all the style pages I'm getting and I'll probably get back on that horse today to get a few more, but yeah. Burnout.
            • BlueRaven
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              Grizzbeorn wrote: »
              This is a lesson to all aspiring and current game developers out there:

              This is the power you have over your players. Use it responsibly; don't abuse it like ZOS is doing so with this event.

              So the player isn't responsible for how they choose to play the game?
              Ok, then.

              They played the event as the designers intended.

              There was a myriad of ways zos could have implemented giving out the style pages, but this is how they chose to do it.
              Edited by BlueRaven on April 24, 2024 7:33AM
            • Grizzbeorn
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              BlueRaven wrote: »
              Grizzbeorn wrote: »
              This is a lesson to all aspiring and current game developers out there:

              This is the power you have over your players. Use it responsibly; don't abuse it like ZOS is doing so with this event.

              So the player isn't responsible for how they choose to play the game?
              Ok, then.

              They played the event as the designers intended.

              There was a myriad of ways zos could have implemented giving out the style pages, but this is how they chose to do it.

              You're missing my point.
              But first, no video game company intends for their players to grind until they *injure* themselves.
              The player has to take SOME personal responsibility for how they choose to interact with the game.


              Edited by Grizzbeorn on April 24, 2024 9:09AM
                PC/NA Warden Main
              • SilverBride
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                Grizzbeorn wrote: »
                ...no video game company intends for their players to grind until they *injure* themselves.
                The player has to take SOME personal responsibility for how they choose to interact with the game.

                Of course no one wants their customers to injure themselves, and no one is saying they did. And yes the customer has an obligation for how they play. But the fact is that sometimes the player doesn't realize there is harm being done until later.

                We've all worked out and felt fine. But a couple of hours later when we go to get up from our chair we get those pains in our muscles from something we did hours before.

                For me this grind was more mentally tiring than physical. And yes I could have stopped but no I didn't because the more hours I put into it the less likely I was to just give up because that would mean all those hours were basically for nothing.

                This grind was a very bad idea that left most players stressed and frustrated and there were a lot better ways it could have been done.
                PCNA
              • Grizzbeorn
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                This grind was a very bad idea that left most players stressed and frustrated and there were a lot better ways it could have been done.

                I'm not arguing any of that!
                But it doesn't matter how bad of an idea the grind for these pages was on the ZOS side.
                If you push yourself until you start to feel physical pain (as the OP himself said he did in the title of this thread and in his opening post)...
                over and over

                it's 2:30 AM

                my hands are sore, I may have injured them
                I did not set out to play this evening until my hands hurt.
                I did not set out to stay up to crazy hours while an ear infection rages in my left ear
                but I keep going

                at some point my body will tell me to stop.

                ...that goes beyond ZOS' responsibility in this. That's the OP taking it too far.
                He could have stopped, but he *chose* not to.

                All I am saying is that the player bears some responsibility if they over-exert themselves for the sake of grinding.

                  PC/NA Warden Main
                • SilverBride
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                  Grizzbeorn wrote: »
                  over and over

                  it's 2:30 AM

                  my hands are sore, I may have injured them
                  I did not set out to play this evening until my hands hurt.
                  I did not set out to stay up to crazy hours while an ear infection rages in my left ear
                  but I keep going

                  at some point my body will tell me to stop.

                  ...that goes beyond ZOS' responsibility in this. That's the OP taking it too far.
                  He could have stopped, but he *chose* not to.

                  All I am saying is that the player bears some responsibility if they over-exert themselves for the sake of grinding.

                  It's clear to me that the OP didn't know they were hurting their hands until they felt the soreness, by which time it was too late. They also went on to say they thought their body would tell them to stop.

                  The OP is giving their account of what happened because of this grind. Not once did they tell ZoS that they were responsible for what happened. They just said that they need to make these style pages drop more often now... which they should have.
                  Edited by SilverBride on April 24, 2024 4:32PM
                  PCNA
                • BlueRaven
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                  Grizzbeorn wrote: »
                  BlueRaven wrote: »
                  Grizzbeorn wrote: »
                  This is a lesson to all aspiring and current game developers out there:

                  This is the power you have over your players. Use it responsibly; don't abuse it like ZOS is doing so with this event.

                  So the player isn't responsible for how they choose to play the game?
                  Ok, then.

                  They played the event as the designers intended.

                  There was a myriad of ways zos could have implemented giving out the style pages, but this is how they chose to do it.

                  You're missing my point.
                  But first, no video game company intends for their players to grind until they *injure* themselves.
                  The player has to take SOME personal responsibility for how they choose to interact with the game.


                  You are doing the grind and someone links a page in zone chat. You go on and someone else in the guild gets it. Then someone else does a link….

                  And all the time you think; ‘Maybe just one more, my rng can’t be that bad.’ And you keep going.

                  More people link their drops, someone says they got it on the third pull.

                  ‘Surely the drop chance can’t be that bad? Maybe a 1/2 hour more. ‘

                  And you keep going, and going, thinking to yourself maybe just one more pull, it has to drop.

                  It’s classic casino - slot machine behavior, you hear other people getting their jackpots and you think yours will came soon.

                  It’s just really terrible zos did this.
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