PTS Update 42 - Feedback Thread for Mail Expiration Changes

Varana

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hello, All...

Hello. You see, this is one of the reasons why I don't think engaging with the PTS phase is useful for players at all. People should just stop. That feedback doesn't matter is the better outcome of this process; here, feedback is taken into account and then made worse. Why would I give you any feedback at all?

Not to mention that I can't even give you honest feedback because then Icy sends me another notice that my comment has been edited for profanity bypass. (And here, I would have a really hard time even bypassing the profanity.)

Can we at least get actual, real, hard data on how much of an impact these changes will have on which part of performance? Will Cyro suddenly lag 3% less because 3465 people have lost their sales?

javic1502

javic1502 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hello, All. We have received a lot of feedback regarding the changes to the Mail expiration timers on the PTS. We understand the concerns raised around shortening Mail timers, specifically in instances where a player may need to step away from the game for an extended period of time, and that with this shortened window they may miss items or gold coming from Guild Traders through the Mail.

As we reviewed this feedback and investigated those concerns, our data revealed that the vast majority of items listed at Guild Traders sell within a week. If an item does not sell by then, it typically doesn't sell during that listing period. In light of this, Guild Trader listings will now be reduced from 30 to 14 days. All Mail expiration timers will remain at 14 days. To be clear, the timer for Mail expiration will be 14 days from when the item sells or is returned to the player. A Guild Trader listing will expire 14 days from when an item is listed. This will affect all new Mail items and Guild Trader listings from U42 launch onward.

We understand that this may not be the news some of you were hoping to hear, and want to provide context for this decision. Based on the data of how quickly items typically sell, the team felt that 30 days for Guild Trader listings was unnecessarily long, and reducing the Mail expiration timers and the Guild Trader listings will allow for improvements in server performance by reducing strain on the database.

If you plan on being away from the game for an extended period, we recommend taking those personal plans into account when making decisions regarding Guild Trader listings.

We hope this information has been insightful, and as always, you are welcome to leave additional feedback in the PTS section of the Forums.

@ZOS_Kevin
Please reduce the Listing Fee & House Cut. If the item listing time is reduced from 30 days to 14 days, it would only be fair to reduce these costs by 50%. Perhaps change the Listing Fee from 1.0% to 0.5%. Perhaps change the House Cut from 7.0% overall with 3.5% to the guild and 3.5% lost to the system, to 3.5% overall with 3.5% to the guild and 0.0% lost to the system. This would be a net change from 8.0% overall to 4.0% overall without the guilds losing anything. This 50% reduction in costs would balance out the change from 30 days to 14 days for guild listings.

@ZOS_Kevin
I stand corrected on the House Cut, since it can be refunded. But I maintain my request that the Listing Fee be reduced. This change is effectively doubling the impact of the gold sink from the Listing Fee. It's only fair to cut the Listing Fee in half, in compensation for the quality of life hit when we list expensive items.

javic1502

I'm also very curious if ZOS has sought external assistance for the server issues. Microsoft may be able to help there.

Aislinna

Phaedrathallassa wrote: »

What about people who don’t plan on being away from the game? Ie medical events, computer breaks, family stuff, all kinds of things life throws at us. Will ZOS restore their mail? I can’t imagine being away because of an unexpected life event and finally get a chance to relax only to realize you’ve lost millions of gold/hours of progress.

I lost a Baron Zaudrus page to the mail gods due to a hiatus (estimated value: 80 mil gold). I didn’t care too much since I’d already sold 3 (and it was my own fault because I could have logged on and chose not to). That would be heart wrenching to most people. Imagine if it was outside your control.

As a person who experienced one of those unexpected medical events a few months ago, I can only share that my thoughts on "what I lost in a virtual game" was... absolutely nothing, didn't give it a single thought. After I left the hospital and after I recovered enough strength to sit up and be able to log onto a computer, my only thought was "thank goodness I'm alive", not how much make believe gold I might have lost by not logging in. #priorities

VisitHammerfell

I don't ever sell mats outside of something like a Rubyblossom Extract. Almost all of of my sales are from motifs, tradeable gear, and occasional lux flips. Many of these sales are past 14 days, some 0-2 days before expiring.... I've actually noticed many sales from items with imminent expirations. 14 days is an awful, awful change, and will mess up the market with people undercutting more and more to make quick sales.

My suggestion: Rewards for the Worthy, guild trader purchases, PvP monthly rewards upon toon login, and leaderboard rewards upon toon login to 7 days + hireling mails to 14 days (for those without Plus) + guild sales to at least 21 days if not 30 + guild listings keep at 30 days. Many people like me don't sell mats and will be affected very much by this, it will be worse on console bc without addons it takes a bit longer to find our items sometimes. Please don't make guild trading a horrible chore.

wolfie1.0.

To be fair, they really arnt wrong about how likely things are to sell after two weeks. It will also help inflation. I don't like this change and it's going to be a pain point for a lot of people.

Some honest feed back here ZOS_Kevin. Not everyone is going to see this on rhe pts forums, nor is everyone going to see it on any section of the forums and when this hits live the US is going to hit vacation prime time. My recommendation is that zos make announcement in game when this goes live and on the website.

It may save you some headaches on the customer support side.

spartaxoxo

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hello, All. We have received a lot of feedback regarding the changes to the Mail expiration timers on the PTS. We understand the concerns raised around shortening Mail timers, specifically in instances where a player may need to step away from the game for an extended period of time, and that with this shortened window they may miss items or gold coming from Guild Traders through the Mail.

As we reviewed this feedback and investigated those concerns, our data revealed that the vast majority of items listed at Guild Traders sell within a week. If an item does not sell by then, it typically doesn't sell during that listing period. In light of this, Guild Trader listings will now be reduced from 30 to 14 days. All Mail expiration timers will remain at 14 days. To be clear, the timer for Mail expiration will be 14 days from when the item sells or is returned to the player. A Guild Trader listing will expire 14 days from when an item is listed. This will affect all new Mail items and Guild Trader listings from U42 launch onward.

We understand that this may not be the news some of you were hoping to hear, and want to provide context for this decision. Based on the data of how quickly items typically sell, the team felt that 30 days for Guild Trader listings was unnecessarily long, and reducing the Mail expiration timers and the Guild Trader listings will allow for improvements in server performance by reducing strain on the database.

If you plan on being away from the game for an extended period, we recommend taking those personal plans into account when making decisions regarding Guild Trader listings.

We hope this information has been insightful, and as always, you are welcome to leave additional feedback in the PTS section of the Forums.

@ZOS_Kevin

Please consider making an exception for big ticket items! I know there's a lot of good feedback on this but I would be very surprised if your data didn't also show those items take longer to sell.

The number of players who can afford an item that is 1 million+ coin is greatly smaller than one who can afford a 2k+ coin item. And those people may not even be in the market when you list the item. In addition, the listing fees on those items are much greater. So effectively doubling those items listing fees is something that can be burdensome to players, especially those who got lucky with item and are not normally big sellers.

Durnik

So when you get feedback saying someone doesn't like something your next instinct is to make it worse? Ever heard of ripping off a bandaid? The idea is you get it done quick. 1 time. What you all just did was add another bandaid to rip off right after it.

JoeCapricorn

*** this change.

Durnik

This added decision seems like retaliation for voicing our opinions. If we keep up the complaints is update 43 going to give us expiration on inventory items?

wolfie1.0.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

Question if guild trading listings and mail delivery are impacting database strains as much then is it wise to roll out a whole new combat system? Or is this change meant to free up space for it? Won't this also cause issues on the history side? What if we have rolling server connectivity issues and mails get lost? Or issues like the PTS event have a recurrence?

Just trying to understand and hoping that this doesn't become the nightmare I fear it will be.

Renoir888

My opinion: leave the way things are! Some items take time to sell, some sell well past 14 days. Some sellers are not always there to check. Casual sellers would be penalized. And the mail? Terrible! Again, casual payers penalized. Plus anybody taking a holiday! No No NO!

James-Wayne

Such a great change to guild trading, will flesh out some of the mess with them now!

LokiPagan

Cool, I sure do love paying the listing fee multiple times for high value items that take a while to sell.

I can only see this as another change meant to drive FOMO.

If the mail is putting a load on the servers, there are plenty of changes that can be made. Maybe have an NPC that gives players their "reward for the worthy" boxes instead of getting them from mail? I feel like there are an awful lot of redundant mails...stuff like gold from items sold aren't one of them.

JoeCapricorn

Your data on this is incomplete. It's going to hurt a lot of the guilds I'm in, some that miss a week on the guild trader will now face people leaving because sales listings expire so quickly

JHartEllis

A simple mail improvement could be to send out 5 Rewards for the Worthy boxes every 100,000 AP in one consolidated mail. That would reduce system mails for this by 80% while keeping reward math predictable.

Jaraal

So now it will cost players up to twice as much to list items, to make up for the decision to cut mail functionality in half. Incredible!

BlueRaven wrote: »

We keep losing quality of life systems to improve the servers. But the servers never improve.

Yes, this insidious watering down of the player experience to fit the architecture of the servers rather than expanding the architecture to meet the demand caused by increased content bloat is getting really old.

Wolfkeks

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hello, All. We have received a lot of feedback regarding the changes to the Mail expiration timers on the PTS. We understand the concerns raised around shortening Mail timers, specifically in instances where a player may need to step away from the game for an extended period of time, and that with this shortened window they may miss items or gold coming from Guild Traders through the Mail.

As we reviewed this feedback and investigated those concerns, our data revealed that the vast majority of items listed at Guild Traders sell within a week. If an item does not sell by then, it typically doesn't sell during that listing period. In light of this, Guild Trader listings will now be reduced from 30 to 14 days. All Mail expiration timers will remain at 14 days. To be clear, the timer for Mail expiration will be 14 days from when the item sells or is returned to the player. A Guild Trader listing will expire 14 days from when an item is listed. This will affect all new Mail items and Guild Trader listings from U42 launch onward.

We understand that this may not be the news some of you were hoping to hear, and want to provide context for this decision. Based on the data of how quickly items typically sell, the team felt that 30 days for Guild Trader listings was unnecessarily long, and reducing the Mail expiration timers and the Guild Trader listings will allow for improvements in server performance by reducing strain on the database.

If you plan on being away from the game for an extended period, we recommend taking those personal plans into account when making decisions regarding Guild Trader listings.

We hope this information has been insightful, and as always, you are welcome to leave additional feedback in the PTS section of the Forums.

Is this the code rewrite they promised us two years ago? Rewriting the code so the mail and guild trader timers are shorter for better performance? 🤔

chessalavakia_ESO

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hello, All. We have received a lot of feedback regarding the changes to the Mail expiration timers on the PTS. We understand the concerns raised around shortening Mail timers, specifically in instances where a player may need to step away from the game for an extended period of time, and that with this shortened window they may miss items or gold coming from Guild Traders through the Mail.

As we reviewed this feedback and investigated those concerns, our data revealed that the vast majority of items listed at Guild Traders sell within a week. If an item does not sell by then, it typically doesn't sell during that listing period. In light of this, Guild Trader listings will now be reduced from 30 to 14 days. All Mail expiration timers will remain at 14 days. To be clear, the timer for Mail expiration will be 14 days from when the item sells or is returned to the player. A Guild Trader listing will expire 14 days from when an item is listed. This will affect all new Mail items and Guild Trader listings from U42 launch onward.

We understand that this may not be the news some of you were hoping to hear, and want to provide context for this decision. Based on the data of how quickly items typically sell, the team felt that 30 days for Guild Trader listings was unnecessarily long, and reducing the Mail expiration timers and the Guild Trader listings will allow for improvements in server performance by reducing strain on the database.

If you plan on being away from the game for an extended period, we recommend taking those personal plans into account when making decisions regarding Guild Trader listings.

We hope this information has been insightful, and as always, you are welcome to leave additional feedback in the PTS section of the Forums.

Could you be more specific regarding what the improvements in performance might do/enable to be done?

As a player, the negatives of the changes are pretty clear but the positive are a bit unclear.

MasterSpatula

ZOS: "Here's your Three Decker Toadstool and Sauerkraut Sandwich."

Players: "This is a bad thing."

ZOS: "By gosh, you're right. We forgot the.... AAAAAARSENIIIIIIC SAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUCE!"

linlilia

@ZOS_Kevin

I think that this change is unnecessary as a person that often lists large items, like full stack of Dreugh Wax or items over 2mil in cost, they often take 3-4 weeks with sometimes 2 or 3 listings to sell NOW. I am in heavy traffic zones so sight and access is not an issue but it is more about desire for the items when you are in the larger price range, same with obscure items.

I don't think that this will decrease server fatigue if anything it will increase it due to items constantly having to be pulled down and relisted. People arent going to NOT list 30 items at a time in the main traders.

I suspect a hidden reason for this is to increase the gold sink associated with selling which is understandable, I know on PC NA prices do just generally keep going up.

Please reconsider because both changes will do nothing but frustrate the community.

sarahthes

linlilia wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin

I think that this change is unnecessary as a person that often lists large items, like full stack of Dreugh Wax or items over 2mil in cost, they often take 3-4 weeks with sometimes 2 or 3 listings to sell NOW. I am in heavy traffic zones so sight and access is not an issue but it is more about desire for the items when you are in the larger price range, same with obscure items.

I don't think that this will decrease server fatigue if anything it will increase it due to items constantly having to be pulled down and relisted. People arent going to NOT list 30 items at a time in the main traders.

I suspect a hidden reason for this is to increase the gold sink associated with selling which is understandable, I know on PC NA prices do just generally keep going up.

Please reconsider because both changes will do nothing but frustrate the community.

Hmm. You'd sell your mats faster if you split the stacks up, probably going thru all 200 faster than listing them as a single stack. I know when I sell wax I sell it in stacks of 8 and it moves within 24-48 hours always.

baratron

For the love of the Divines!

I already explained at length in another thread how the majority of Europeans have a minimum of 28 days of holiday and many do take it in one lump. It is NOT uncommon for those who can afford it to go away for 3-4 weeks at a time, especially if they are able to rent a holiday cottage, camp, or stay with relatives.

I explained how players may not own laptops or might not have internet access available on their holiday (vacation). Or how they might be expected to spend the entire holiday (vacation) interacting with their family, taking care of their kids or elderly relatives.

I asked for this change to be discussed with all of the European Community Managers.

And then you come back - Kevin, no insult to you, I realise that you are just the messenger here - and say:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hello, All. We have received a lot of feedback regarding the changes to the Mail expiration timers on the PTS. We understand the concerns raised around shortening Mail timers, specifically in instances where a player may need to step away from the game for an extended period of time, and that with this shortened window they may miss items or gold coming from Guild Traders through the Mail.

[...]

If you plan on being away from the game for an extended period, we recommend taking those personal plans into account when making decisions regarding Guild Trader listings.

It appears to me that what ZOS in North America is suggesting is that the trading system on all three EU servers gets put on hold for the couple of months when many players are away? Seriously?

If everyone delists their items during the summer, how are guilds supposed to fund their Traders?

If everyone delists their items, how are players supposed to find things that they need or want?

Please, take my advice and TALK TO the European Community Managers who can tell you if this change will be practical.

Meanwhile, if ZOS wishes to free up database space by removing players' tendency to use mail as additional storage, I would suggest increasing the size limit of personal or Guild Banks. 500 slots is nothing in a 500 member Guild - it's like one slot per person. Why does the personal bank stop at 240/480 instead of 250/500?

Allow us to buy more bank space and those of us who fill our mail window with bounced mails full of items won't need to do this any more, thus solving the performance problem without making anyone angry.

Ittrix

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

As we reviewed this feedback and investigated those concerns, our data revealed that the vast majority of items listed at Guild Traders sell within a week. If an item does not sell by then, it typically doesn't sell during that listing period.

This says to me the change shouldn't go through.
If the vast majority of items are selling in a week, then I assume that means the extreme minority of items aren't.

Is cracking down on that extreme minority by halving it's list time really going to help server strain? Even if it does help server strain- is it going to help it enough to justify all the QoL complaints players are giving as feedback?
I doubt it.

Change shouldn't go through.

Ittrix

As for the mail expiry... I suspect the only reason mail is a problem is because players are either not taking items from mail immediately, or are generating more of it on purpose which they also leave for lengthy periods.

They're clearly doing it because there's inventory issues. They don't have room for the transmutes, or they're so desperate for slots they're using your mail system to extend their inventory.


Instead of making it harder for them to use mail as an inventory system...
Do something about people being so desperate for inventory space they'd ever try to use mail as an inventory system.
If it's not viable to give players more slots due to server strain, you can at least try and consolidate existing items to take up less space on both ends.

It will lessen the amount of mail floating around in limbo, and it'll make your game better. Doubt anyone'll complain about those kinds of changes, too.

Kelinmiriel

You want to fix the database problem? I can give you some suggestions that will HELP players instead of hurt.

Remove box opening cooldowns!

How many of us store Rewards of the Worthy, Siegemaster Coffers, and many other containers, either on our characters or in our mail, because if we open more than one PER DAY, PER ACCOUNT, we lose something valuable from them?

Stop punishing us, and the database, by this practice!

You could also remove code to check how long it's been since we opened the boxes. So, better performance. Plus, it's unfair to players who don't know they're missing on something if they don't wait, or can't keep track of whether they've already opened their daily box. (I use the Item Cooldown Tracker addon, but console players don't have that option.)

gariondavey

this is a bad change, please do not go through with this.

learn from the disaster of account wide achievements, where you had hundreds of pages of backlash and opposition but you plowed through with it anyway.

jcaceresw

Kelinmiriel wrote: »

You want to fix the database problem? I can give you some suggestions that will HELP players instead of hurt.

Remove box opening cooldowns!

How many of us store Rewards of the Worthy, Siegemaster Coffers, and many other containers, either on our characters or in our mail, because if we open more than one PER DAY, PER ACCOUNT, we lose something valuable from them?

Stop punishing us, and the database, by this practice!

You could also remove code to check how long it's been since we opened the boxes. So, better performance. Plus, it's unfair to players who don't know they're missing on something if they don't wait, or can't keep track of whether they've already opened their daily box. (I use the Item Cooldown Tracker addon, but console players don't have that option.)

Better they remove any cooldown for motifs and boxes. It's a better solution for everyone.

quinancia

I don't like this. It hurts traders. But, it also just doesn't seem like it will work.

If the goal is to reduce the number of items that are for sale at any given time, well I am not sure that is the right goal. Even if it were, people will adjust and relist stuff more often. So I don't see server gains.

The trading system is one of the most awesome parts of ESO. It seems like we keep making changes that make it less awesome.

Jaraal

sarahthes wrote: »

Hmm. You'd sell your mats faster if you split the stacks up, probably going thru all 200 faster than listing them as a single stack. I know when I sell wax I sell it in stacks of 8 and it moves within 24-48 hours always.

I don't necessarily agree with that. When I'm looking to buy mats in bulk, I will pay a small premium to buy a stack of 200, rather than spend an hour going from trader to trader buying up stacks of 8, only to find that most of the time the stack of 8 is already long gone. Also, as a seller, I need every one of my 150 slots (30 per guild, 5 guilds), so I'm not going to waste 25 slots on stacks of 8 each, when I can fill those 25 slots with 200 mats per.