Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Joy_Division

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

it became clear which direction...

...which direction you were headed in. Just you. Other players still compete, and the devs still try to balance.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

In a game where you do not have to aim

But unlike range, melee attacks do need to be aimed, and have to deal with idiotic cast delays on top of aiming. MagSorc is the game's archetypal caster mage spec yet doesn't actually have to cast (or aim) anything unless you go full potato on your frags. The 2h melee warrior line has more cast time skills (3) than any magical caster line in the game.

Please tell me how other players in this game still compete in anything other than their feeling they are at this or that level?

This game has no accurate way for a player to gauge skill in PVP.

Devs of course do balance the game but if they keep balancing away from skill based gameplay as they have been then what does that really say for any given skill level people think they seem to achieve?

The way most games are and for most people, the only competition is how they feel. If I go down to the park to play basketball, there is no league, half the time there aren;t even structured rules, no entity is keeping track of the score to publish it in tomorrow's paper, the various skill level of the players is crazy wide, and ultimately the end result of the game will not matter in my real life one bit. In short, there is more attention paid to the informal pick up game than ZOS devotes to ESO, because the town will occasionally repair a bent rim and replace a net.

But you better believe when I am playing, I do care very much about winning. And so do most of the other players. I've witnessed people throwing tantrums, others literally taking their basketball home with them, and of course fights. All for a stupid game that has no bearing on our lives whatsoever. These atavistic feeling probably stem from hundreds of thousands of years of evolution in which Sapiens made it a point to outcompete their rivals in some ritualistic nonsense to mate, but those feelings are very much there for most people, even if some people are better at controlling them.

There many not be an accurate way for a player to gauge skill in PvP, but that certainly does not stop players from trying.

As someone who as long ago lost any faith that ZOS might make PvP even a semi-competitive format with real incentives to participate and win, I totally understand being far less serious about studying the game, grinding out sets, and just throwing together anything and playing the game. But even though I do that and accept if I lose to a player who is most invested in the game, that doesn't mean I am indifferent to balance. I have always been a better templar player than a sorcerer player and the reality is that right now I am conspicuously more effective on a sorcerer than a templar. Is this because Templar sucks or Sorcerer is overturned? Or is magicka sorcerer is so forgiving to play you have to actually try in order to be a potato? I haven't played enough in the past 4 years to make an informed judgment one way or the other.

So even though ZOS isn;t keeping score and isn;t even trying to make PvP skillful or properly competitive and I am more of a "casual" now, that doesn't mean I do not care and have become apathetic to such things. If I am going to choose to keep my guitar in the closet and instead devote a night to logging onto Cyrodiil, I do not want to feel like as if I went to the park and the town made an arbitrary rule that some players got three points for a layup or I had to play barefoot.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm saying some people say they're casuals to help their argument for Ward.

There's a lot of ambiguity to what "casual" means. There's general effort level, which I usually hear as casual vs hardcore, and there's how much someone wants to win, usually heard as casual vs competitive. Perspective matters, Bushido may feel casual now compared to his old self, but it sounds like he's still a lot more hardcore and competitive than the casual-casual with 27k max mag who does literally nothing but hard cast frags (on the one day a week he plays the game).

That said, I do agree that many of the posts here have this vibe of a mid+ player claiming "casual" in trying to justify their overpowered defensive button. These players never needed the help. The casuals who actually need help are the 27k max mag hard cast frag spammers, the guys blaming their deaths on spies and hackers, etc.

Or there's the perspective of maybe somebody is just saying I like ward and if it helps casuals out which may or may not include me then that's cool too.

I'm not saying that's my exact opinion but I'm just curious why anyone here thinks obfuscation is a necessary tactic for an opinion on these forums?

Here's an example, if I say I'm pro ward and that it seems fine, non pro ward people would still say I'm biased and that ward is busted.

If I say I'm a casual and this change helps me are those that are pro ward all the sudden going to back down and say oh well then I guess your point if legitimate now?

It just sounds like a lot of assumptions and ways to invalidate those that don't agree with you or disagree with you in a way that doesn't paint them negatively.

It's the same as if someone says anyone opposed to Ward change is just sad because they can't get easy kills or want to protect their perceived elite status. That's one narrow way to look at it that assumes a negative bias with little regard to what each person might actually care about in opposition to the change.

Bushido2513

Joy_Division wrote: »

So even though ZOS isn;t keeping score and isn;t even trying to make PvP skillful or properly competitive and I am more of a "casual" now, that doesn't mean I do not care and have become apathetic to such things. If I am going to choose to keep my guitar in the closet and instead devote a night to logging onto Cyrodiil, I do not want to feel like as if I went to the park and the town made an arbitrary rule that some players got three points for a layup or I had to play barefoot.

This is actually an interesting and possibly great analogy.

In this town what they are telling you is we charge money for these courts now and so we've decided to make the court more appealing to everyone. No skills, no problem, we got you.

Remember last week when we gave those guys over there rocket boosters in their shoes and they were dunking all over you? Ok so we gave you their rocket boosters and now team necro is playing bare foot. We did this so you and the rest of team sorc will come back and keep playing.

Don't worry even though team necronoshoes is probably not going to play as much we've got some other people that we gave rocket shoes and stealth jerseys to and they are happy to play with you even though your rocket shoes automatically now squirt gatorade every time the rockets engage.

Now we realize one of you would blow the other away or not score anything if we put you in a 1v1 game so we've asked that you play in groups now so that everyone can utilize their rocket boots and other accessories and feel like they contributed regardless of actual contribution.

Yes we know if you look at the details closely you will be able to make arguments about who is currently getting the better deal. We ask that you trust in our behind the scenes process that we'll barely or never explain to you and just go with the flow / keep paying monthly dues and buying snacks and merch while on the court. I mean by all means use the suggestion box all you like just please don't follow up with us when things don't go your way or go a way that's bizarrely nowhere near what you actually wanted.

Oh by the way we've removed most any way for you or anyone else to tell if you're actually better than any other player. There's a little scoring here and there but just ignore it if you like. We find it works best if we just let you imagine your skill level so that if you're not that good you can still experience somewhat of a power fantasy. Don't worry there are those that will try to tell you they are of this level and you're of this other level but trust us just stick to what you think you are and you're going to enjoy your game much more.


Your credit card was just approved, so please go out there and have some fun champ!

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Cfrag being a mini Merciless Resolve that can proc back to back

That would be nice...if true

It is true lol

StaticWave

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Btw, you can also build high spell damage now. Competitive healing options are no longer absent on magsorc. There’s contingency, healing soul, and Vibrant Shroud with new Blood Magic. If you choose to go with an “inferior” stat option, that is ON YOU. It’s not a valid argument anymore to defend Ward’s overperformance.

So are you admitting that you just want Ward nerfed for the sake of it, because you would like the Magsorc archetype deleted from the game again? All this @ ZoS spam certainly makes it seem very desperate and urgent.

When there are now all those shiny healing options available ( spell damage based = much superior damage stat than magicka) and some Sorcs choose to either drop Ward, or greatly weakening it by omitting magicka, is there really a problem anymore? If Ward is used less and seen less, then maybe it just balanced itself by merit of build diversity? Perhaps that is all it took, because Magsorc is only viable with very specific builds. And that was ultra magicka until now.

I myself have indeed began to see some of these wardless Magsorcs.

No, I’m saying there are competitive healing options (Healing Soul, Contingency, Vibrant Shroud). Ward still outperforms them, but there are healing options for this class that is competitive with other classes.

Ward needs to be nerfed tho that’s for sure.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Out of pure curosity, from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb? Keep in mind that I've been putting strong emphasis on how easy all mentioned things are to achieve on nb which is a important part to remember when talking about efficiency of something.

Sure, but I don’t think you were being fair. You compared a specific spec (ranged magsorc) to the entire NB class. You should have compared ranged magsorc to ranged magblade, and then we’ll have an actual fair comparison. So to respond to that, ranged magsorc is stronger than ranged magblade, plain and simple. That’s why you rarely see ranged magblades these days.

If you want to compare Sorc vs NB, then I can name you several things Sorc could do with equal efficiency, or even better:

1) Overload ganking

Remember the Overload + Crusing/Ele Wep + Crystal Wep combo? Yea, that got nerfed twice because ppl complained about getting 1 shotted from stealth with it. It was akin to getting one shotted by a heavy attack ganker because all the damage was registered instantly when the Overload lands

2) Proc abuse

Stamsorc has always been one of the biggest proc abusers in history. Just to name an example: Deadlands + Ashen Grip + Vate + mDW, remember that? That build could 1 shot anyone that isn’t a 40k HP tank. No other class could replicate that hit and run playstyle, not even NB. You think proc NB gankers are troublesome? With that old build I could Streak thru them, medium weave, and they’d explode.

3) Front-loaded damage

Why do you think people stack proc sets? It’s to front load as much damage as possible and kill someone before they can react.

You see, Sorc just happens to have Curse, Bound Arms, and Cwep, which can all be timed together to burst someone before they can react. I’ve done it many times, and people go from 100 to 20 in an instant.

I did all that with pure stat sets. What do you think will happen when I slot procs like NB?

4) Bombard spam

Stamsorc is THE perfect class for this playstyle. I actually run this spec right now in my group because it’s just too good. Bombard + Streak to lock down an entire group and stun them so your teammates can follow up, plus Streak allows you to reposition extremely easy. I’ve seen NBs try to do the same but they can never replicate the same efficiency. It’s akin to me trying to be a Cloak Sorc with Stealth potions.

5) Unmatched kiting potential

Sorc forever remains undefeated when it comes to kiting. Sure NB can use Cloak and Shade with high movement speed to kite, but you aren’t kiting a zerg in open field on NB. Only Sorc can do that via Streak spam.

I compared magsorc to varietry of different nb setups just to point out how much more freedom nb have. No matter what setup magsorc is picking he will almost always end up being pretty much the same, a ranged DD with shield as main source of defense and predictable burst combo as his main source of getting kills. The old saying "same s*** , different flavour perfectly describes all the options that magsorc have atm. Nightblade on the other hand? There is plenty to choose from and class itself is way mre comfportable in this new hybrydisation era. People even stopped name their builds as mag or stam nightblade and now very often You will just see a PvP nightblade setup without mag or stam prefix because You can mix and match Your resources freely. Sorc currently have a much heavier split between mag and stam than nb. This is why saying that I should compare ranged magsorc specifically to a ranged magblade is na bit silly because You want me to compare basically a only version of the playstyle that sorc can build on that side of the spectrum to a one of many versions of the playstyles that nb can build. And funnily enough almost all the setups I've mentioned could be used by ranged magblade and if You want to claim that for example having to use incap no longer makes magblade truly ranged class because now and than he needs to enter meele distance than going by this logic the need to use streak to stun enemies no longer makes magsorc a ranged class because once in a while he needs to enter meele distance.

1. Overload ganking. Non existant on sorc anymore. When was the last time You've actually have seen overload ganker or any type of sorc ganker vs when was the last time You've seen a nb ganker? And even if overload ganking would be still existant in some form it's still a one trick pony that You can only use once in a while that requires better preparation and awerness of surroundings because there won't be vanishing into stealth after that if You fail.

2. Proc abuse. Like I said not a magsorc thing. And if stamsorc was one of the biggest proc sets abusers in game's history than stamblade was and still is the biggest one. Stamsorc is known for becoming stronger every patch he can use some proc sets, nightblade is known for being the best class to use proc sets. Stamsorc just copy patses the meta proc sets from other classes and makes them stronger, nightblade does the same but he can also wear the proc set combos that no other class could utilize in the same manner as nb can. If You're so fond of old times to bring up overload ganking maybe You also remember the most broken proc set combo in history which was viper+widowmaker+tremorscale and which class was wearing it? Thing with abusing procs is that to go full proctard You need to have a skill that will offset investments You've made into going full proc and allow YOu to get full adventage of procs and cloak was always better at it than streak.

3. Front loaded damage. In terms of magsorc it all goes back to what I said in one of my earlier comments. Great for killing noobs not so great against any decent player. Difference between magsorc'burst and nightblad eburst is that nb can burst someone way easier than sorc can because nb doesn't even need a combo or timing up anything to reach higher burst values than a sorc with perfectly timed combo that actually landed on someone.

4. Bombard spam. I said "from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb", I don't remember saying anything about bombard or AoE control so I don't know what that argument is doing here.

5. Unmatched kiting potential. Sorc and nb are both kings in kiting in their own respective fields. While sorc is a master of just streaking away whcihc gives him an edge in open field nb is a master of LoS in closed spaces and elevations. The moment nb reaches some obstacle or elevation he instantly becomes better at kiting than sorc especially magsorc.

As I’ve said at the beginning of my comment, you pitting a specific Sorc spec (magsorc) against the entire NB class with multiple specs (gankblades, brawlerblades, proc blades, etc.) makes the comparison unfair.

I could pit a ranged magNB against all iterations of Sorc (stam and mag), and you could say the same thing about magNB as you would magSorc. It’s just not fair to do so.

All iterations of Sorc vs NB would be a more appropriate comparison. In that scenario, Sorc in general outperforms NB for solo PvP.

And I've said at the beggining of my comment why I've made that comparision but I see You continue to respond to my comments despite not understanding what was being said in them. Also Nightblade can be all of mentioned by You specs at once, magsorc is just a magsorc. Fact that You can make so namy different names for nb playstyles but for mag based sorc You literally just use one name a magsorc should already give You some hint of what I was talking about and whgat issues is that playstyle facing. And it is You who heavily leaning this whole thread towards magsorc since You're the one notoriously bringing up 40-60k max mag builds spamming shields which is exclusively a magsorc thing to do.

If You would made that pit You would've to also decide which type of ranged magblade it will be. For a magsorc it would be just a magsorc. Nighhtblade flexibility in terms of build options gives him massive edge. Also I find it hilarious that Your only defense of nightblade is that I compared it just to a magsorc and You never made an actuall response to points that I've made about adventages that specific nb setups have over the magsorc. Just goes to show that deep down You perfectly know the position that magsorc is in currently.

Sorc is not outperforming nb for solo PvP.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Btw, you can also build high spell damage now. Competitive healing options are no longer absent on magsorc. There’s contingency, healing soul, and Vibrant Shroud with new Blood Magic. If you choose to go with an “inferior” stat option, that is ON YOU. It’s not a valid argument anymore to defend Ward’s overperformance.

So are you admitting that you just want Ward nerfed for the sake of it, because you would like the Magsorc archetype deleted from the game again? All this @ ZoS spam certainly makes it seem very desperate and urgent.

When there are now all those shiny healing options available ( spell damage based = much superior damage stat than magicka) and some Sorcs choose to either drop Ward, or greatly weakening it by omitting magicka, is there really a problem anymore? If Ward is used less and seen less, then maybe it just balanced itself by merit of build diversity? Perhaps that is all it took, because Magsorc is only viable with very specific builds. And that was ultra magicka until now.

I myself have indeed began to see some of these wardless Magsorcs.

No, I’m saying there are competitive healing options (Healing Soul, Contingency, Vibrant Shroud). Ward still outperforms them, but there are healing options for this class that is competitive with other classes.

Ward needs to be nerfed tho that’s for sure.

Make a magsorc unslot hardened ward and use these competitive healing options than.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Out of pure curosity, from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb? Keep in mind that I've been putting strong emphasis on how easy all mentioned things are to achieve on nb which is a important part to remember when talking about efficiency of something.

Sure, but I don’t think you were being fair. You compared a specific spec (ranged magsorc) to the entire NB class. You should have compared ranged magsorc to ranged magblade, and then we’ll have an actual fair comparison. So to respond to that, ranged magsorc is stronger than ranged magblade, plain and simple. That’s why you rarely see ranged magblades these days.

If you want to compare Sorc vs NB, then I can name you several things Sorc could do with equal efficiency, or even better:

1) Overload ganking

Remember the Overload + Crusing/Ele Wep + Crystal Wep combo? Yea, that got nerfed twice because ppl complained about getting 1 shotted from stealth with it. It was akin to getting one shotted by a heavy attack ganker because all the damage was registered instantly when the Overload lands

2) Proc abuse

Stamsorc has always been one of the biggest proc abusers in history. Just to name an example: Deadlands + Ashen Grip + Vate + mDW, remember that? That build could 1 shot anyone that isn’t a 40k HP tank. No other class could replicate that hit and run playstyle, not even NB. You think proc NB gankers are troublesome? With that old build I could Streak thru them, medium weave, and they’d explode.

3) Front-loaded damage

Why do you think people stack proc sets? It’s to front load as much damage as possible and kill someone before they can react.

You see, Sorc just happens to have Curse, Bound Arms, and Cwep, which can all be timed together to burst someone before they can react. I’ve done it many times, and people go from 100 to 20 in an instant.

I did all that with pure stat sets. What do you think will happen when I slot procs like NB?

4) Bombard spam

Stamsorc is THE perfect class for this playstyle. I actually run this spec right now in my group because it’s just too good. Bombard + Streak to lock down an entire group and stun them so your teammates can follow up, plus Streak allows you to reposition extremely easy. I’ve seen NBs try to do the same but they can never replicate the same efficiency. It’s akin to me trying to be a Cloak Sorc with Stealth potions.

5) Unmatched kiting potential

Sorc forever remains undefeated when it comes to kiting. Sure NB can use Cloak and Shade with high movement speed to kite, but you aren’t kiting a zerg in open field on NB. Only Sorc can do that via Streak spam.

I compared magsorc to varietry of different nb setups just to point out how much more freedom nb have. No matter what setup magsorc is picking he will almost always end up being pretty much the same, a ranged DD with shield as main source of defense and predictable burst combo as his main source of getting kills. The old saying "same s*** , different flavour perfectly describes all the options that magsorc have atm. Nightblade on the other hand? There is plenty to choose from and class itself is way mre comfportable in this new hybrydisation era. People even stopped name their builds as mag or stam nightblade and now very often You will just see a PvP nightblade setup without mag or stam prefix because You can mix and match Your resources freely. Sorc currently have a much heavier split between mag and stam than nb. This is why saying that I should compare ranged magsorc specifically to a ranged magblade is na bit silly because You want me to compare basically a only version of the playstyle that sorc can build on that side of the spectrum to a one of many versions of the playstyles that nb can build. And funnily enough almost all the setups I've mentioned could be used by ranged magblade and if You want to claim that for example having to use incap no longer makes magblade truly ranged class because now and than he needs to enter meele distance than going by this logic the need to use streak to stun enemies no longer makes magsorc a ranged class because once in a while he needs to enter meele distance.

1. Overload ganking. Non existant on sorc anymore. When was the last time You've actually have seen overload ganker or any type of sorc ganker vs when was the last time You've seen a nb ganker? And even if overload ganking would be still existant in some form it's still a one trick pony that You can only use once in a while that requires better preparation and awerness of surroundings because there won't be vanishing into stealth after that if You fail.

2. Proc abuse. Like I said not a magsorc thing. And if stamsorc was one of the biggest proc sets abusers in game's history than stamblade was and still is the biggest one. Stamsorc is known for becoming stronger every patch he can use some proc sets, nightblade is known for being the best class to use proc sets. Stamsorc just copy patses the meta proc sets from other classes and makes them stronger, nightblade does the same but he can also wear the proc set combos that no other class could utilize in the same manner as nb can. If You're so fond of old times to bring up overload ganking maybe You also remember the most broken proc set combo in history which was viper+widowmaker+tremorscale and which class was wearing it? Thing with abusing procs is that to go full proctard You need to have a skill that will offset investments You've made into going full proc and allow YOu to get full adventage of procs and cloak was always better at it than streak.

3. Front loaded damage. In terms of magsorc it all goes back to what I said in one of my earlier comments. Great for killing noobs not so great against any decent player. Difference between magsorc'burst and nightblad eburst is that nb can burst someone way easier than sorc can because nb doesn't even need a combo or timing up anything to reach higher burst values than a sorc with perfectly timed combo that actually landed on someone.

4. Bombard spam. I said "from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb", I don't remember saying anything about bombard or AoE control so I don't know what that argument is doing here.

5. Unmatched kiting potential. Sorc and nb are both kings in kiting in their own respective fields. While sorc is a master of just streaking away whcihc gives him an edge in open field nb is a master of LoS in closed spaces and elevations. The moment nb reaches some obstacle or elevation he instantly becomes better at kiting than sorc especially magsorc.

Btw, NB has been pretty easy for me to deal with. I took lots of Ls in duels for the past 4-5 months to learn how to counter their combo via blocking. The class has not been an issue for me since. I also play with 36k+ HP in Rallying Cry, so solo gankers aren’t a problem for me either. The only times they’re a huge threat is when they Xv1 me.

Magsorc on the other hand, has become a serious threat. It’s not so much that their combo is hard to predict. It isn’t. It’s because of these reasons:

1) Curse is unblockable and can crit for 8k+ through Rallying Cry

2) The above average magsorcs will kite a lot, making you chase them. Super difficult to deal with as melee

3) When chasing them, you have to drop block, which means a free cFrag hit unless you keep an eye on their cFrag visual effect

4) Speaking about keeping an eye on cFrag visual effect, there are also several visual effects on their character masking the actual visual effect of cFrag, plus it’s harder to see it while you’re further away from them

It’s so easy to prove these points by playing a melee class and dueling a magsorc that knows how to kite.

So yes, magsorc combo is predictable but good players can and will abuse it to make it super difficult for you to catch them and block their attacks. If you don’t believe me, just play as a melee character against a decent magsorc.

And overwhelming majority of shieldspamming sorcs is pretty easy to for me to deal with. Difference between them and nightblades is that when majority of nightblades is also pretty medciore they can deal substentially more dmg than average magsorcs due to having acces to stealth and procs in plethora of setups some of which I already mentioned. Sorc that want to rely heavily on shield do not have that freedom of choice and to deal dmg needs to rely purely on skills he have on bar which is a major disadventage in dynamic PvP like ESO have when compared to nb who can build a burst combos where more than half of his dmg comes from procs with extra easy proc conditions. You are still talking about duels like it would be the only possible PvP encounter or reliable universal PvP strenght measuring tool which it isn't tbh. . Not everyone plays a 36k HP tanky setup with rallying cry so some people may have different feeling about nb than You. Fact that You need to build as tanky as that just to feel comfortable against nb already shows trhere is an issue with nb class.

I wouldn't call magsorcs a serious threat. One average they're just more threatening atm than they were before they recived a buff because let's be honest at that point in time they were just a laughing stock. For me personally which is a player sp[ending time mainl;y in high MMR BGs there really isn't that many shieldsorcs that I really need to watch out for.

1. Do people run with 10k HP in PvP? Yay You can once in a while deal 8k dmg to someone what with remaining 20-30k HP? Is rest of Your dmg kit also unblockable or undodgable?

2. Ah the "above the average" argument. Highly representative to the overall state of PvP. With scribing magsorcs are not that difficult to deal with anymore tbh even on specific meele builds and it's not like they're are the only one that can kite.

3. Ok they will hit You with a random frag and what's after that? If You didn't have a curse on You it's nothing to be worried about and if You had curse on You it's a dead giveaway when their only windown of opportinity will happen so You can easily prepare for it and avoid it.

4. If You're far away from sorc You can dodge frag before it reaches You. With quick enough reflexes You can do it pretty often due to frag having a minimal travel time built in. This may be tricky though with poor server performance but if poor server performance comes to play than sorc also have few things that are disadventewgous for him in that enviroment.

I play a meele class and have no issues fighting magsorcs in BGs. Once again You're bringing a "good players" to support Your argument. If You need to be a good player just to land Your class's basic attacks than that really isn't good advertisement for a class especially that amount of actually good magsorc in the game is miniscule.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

If You need to be a good player just to land Your class's basic attacks than that really isn't good advertisement for a class

Finally someone talking sense.

Short range. Awkward cast delays. Telegraphed setup. Lack of followup pressure.

Only a particularly good player can handle a class with these sorts of limitations.

After 3 months and 1500 posts, the course of action has become clear.

BUFF NB.

Joy_Division

@Bushido2513

If you think that ZOS has made decisions akin to stealth shirts and rocket shoes in a basketball game, that's your prerogative, but threads like this do have a point.

You asked a question that seemed like you genuinely were curious about: If nobody is keeping track and if ZOS doesn't care about balancing, how could anyone could compete other than their feeling. I answered that. It doesn't matter if it's only a feeling. Because I am the one feeling it, it very much matters to me. I don;t care if there is no way to gauge player skill. That's not why I play the game. I am reasonably honest with myself and since we all compete in the same ruleset, I'll know if someone is better than me or not. I don;t need ZOS to come up with some system to devise that.

I personally don't like that the game is so dependent on proc sets and I disagree with a lot of ZOs's balance decisions, but they are not so unreasonable to be akin to basketball players wearing stealth shirts or rocket shoes. After all, I am fully free to use proc sets or play a class I think it strong. If I thought the decisions ZOS did make were totally unreasonable, I'd wouldn't play. Just like I wouldn't play a basketball game against someone with rocket shoes.

I am playing and I do care even though there isn;t a scoreboard. Just because ZOS failed to make PvP into a sanctioned competitive format doesn;t they are indifferent to balance decisions. Even if I disagree with ZOS choices, that does not invalidate that ZOS has since the beginning of the game have taken a very real interest in at least trying to make balance choices. Because they are at least trying, threads such as this one are useful for communicating information to them.

I do think it is a welcome return that a class has other options that stacking health and ZOS was on the right track with the changes they made. Although I think they went too far in making it a burst heal doesn't mean I'm going to just throw my hands in the air and deem it pointless to provide them with the feedback to make PvP a more accessible experience to people who do value their feelings when playing it, even if ZOS doesn;t keep score.

Bushido2513

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Bushido2513

If you think that ZOS has made decisions akin to stealth shirts and rocket shoes in a basketball game, that's your prerogative, but threads like this do have a point.

You asked a question that seemed like you genuinely were curious about: If nobody is keeping track and if ZOS doesn't care about balancing, how could anyone could compete other than their feeling. I answered that. It doesn't matter if it's only a feeling. Because I am the one feeling it, it very much matters to me. I don;t care if there is no way to gauge player skill. That's not why I play the game. I am reasonably honest with myself and since we all compete in the same ruleset, I'll know if someone is better than me or not. I don;t need ZOS to come up with some system to devise that.

I personally don't like that the game is so dependent on proc sets and I disagree with a lot of ZOs's balance decisions, but they are not so unreasonable to be akin to basketball players wearing stealth shirts or rocket shoes. After all, I am fully free to use proc sets or play a class I think it strong. If I thought the decisions ZOS did make were totally unreasonable, I'd wouldn't play. Just like I wouldn't play a basketball game against someone with rocket shoes.

I am playing and I do care even though there isn;t a scoreboard. Just because ZOS failed to make PvP into a sanctioned competitive format doesn;t they are indifferent to balance decisions. Even if I disagree with ZOS choices, that does not invalidate that ZOS has since the beginning of the game have taken a very real interest in at least trying to make balance choices. Because they are at least trying, threads such as this one are useful for communicating information to them.

I do think it is a welcome return that a class has other options that stacking health and ZOS was on the right track with the changes they made. Although I think they went too far in making it a burst heal doesn't mean I'm going to just throw my hands in the air and deem it pointless to provide them with the feedback to make PvP a more accessible experience to people who do value their feelings when playing it, even if ZOS doesn;t keep score.

@Joy_Division

My point about rocket shoes was not that they are so ridiculous. It was to imply that they give new and interesting things to classes all the time and no it's not meant to make the game unplayable, it's actually to keep various groups and new players rotating in and out of the game.

It's a company at the end of the day and so my point is that it's just a rotating wheel that aims to keep a majority of players happy at the cost of sometimes alienating a minority. It's more profitable and easier to operate then actually making a game that would actually be something we'd all likely appreciate more.

Honestly nobody knows if threads like this are useful or not because we get 0 feedback to indicate if the feedback was taken into consideration or not. It's like sitting and saying a hurricane that passed your area by decided to care about you and swing the other way.

I don't even say that to exaggerate as you can just go back and compare change notes that happened regardless of how people rallied against them. At this point ZOS clearly has a vision that only really stops to consider how profits will be affected and if xyz is game breaking according to our spreadsheet.

Back to the whole competitive thing though or even if this thread matters. That's my point, people are taking feelings and making solid points out of them and that's not how solid points are built.

I'm all for sharing feelings and observations, just not when they are being made out as absolutes or truths. I'm not against balancing the game at all but I'm also not going to pretend anyone here has the right information to do so.

What I'm seeing is a lot of people bring in their bias and then proceed to back it up with subjective information as if that makes it substantial. They are doing this because I suppose the absence of evidence shouldn't stop them from making points as if they had evidence in the first place I guess?

master_vanargand

Sorcerer's statement that "Nightblade is too strong" is a lie.
In reality, Sorcerer use bugged skills (Structured Entropy, Elemental Susceptibility) that destroy stealth and kill the Nightblade very easily, make fun of Nightblade.
Sorcerer understands and exploits the stealth destroy bug of "Structured Entropy".

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

My point about rocket shoes was not that they are so ridiculous. It was to imply that they give new and interesting things

Hey Bushido, wanna 1v1 me in rocket shoe basketball? Winner decides the fate of Hardened Ward!

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

My point about rocket shoes was not that they are so ridiculous. It was to imply that they give new and interesting things

Hey Bushido, wanna 1v1 me in rocket shoe basketball? Winner decides the fate of Hardened Ward!

If ZOS commits to giving players access to pre and post ward change stats regardless of winner I'd be down. Otherwise even if I won I really wouldn't want to just decide based on personal experiences and public opinions

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

If ZOS commits to giving players access to pre and post ward change stats regardless of winner I'd be down. Otherwise even if I won I really wouldn't want to just decide based on personal experiences and public opinions

Well before that, you should worry about our rocket shoe duel. Since you're casual and don't care about balance, and I'm pretty bad at basketball, I guess you won't mind if I bring an assault rifle. No you can't have one, you don't play my class. You can have a knife I guess. We'll start 100 feet apart to give you a chance since I have bad aim. This sounds really fun and balanced! For me anyway, I don't really care how it goes for you.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Btw, you can also build high spell damage now. Competitive healing options are no longer absent on magsorc. There’s contingency, healing soul, and Vibrant Shroud with new Blood Magic. If you choose to go with an “inferior” stat option, that is ON YOU. It’s not a valid argument anymore to defend Ward’s overperformance.

So are you admitting that you just want Ward nerfed for the sake of it, because you would like the Magsorc archetype deleted from the game again? All this @ ZoS spam certainly makes it seem very desperate and urgent.

When there are now all those shiny healing options available ( spell damage based = much superior damage stat than magicka) and some Sorcs choose to either drop Ward, or greatly weakening it by omitting magicka, is there really a problem anymore? If Ward is used less and seen less, then maybe it just balanced itself by merit of build diversity? Perhaps that is all it took, because Magsorc is only viable with very specific builds. And that was ultra magicka until now.

I myself have indeed began to see some of these wardless Magsorcs.

No, I’m saying there are competitive healing options (Healing Soul, Contingency, Vibrant Shroud). Ward still outperforms them, but there are healing options for this class that is competitive with other classes.

Ward needs to be nerfed tho that’s for sure.

Make a magsorc unslot hardened ward and use these competitive healing options than.

We all know why they won’t drop Ward, and it’s definitely not because of roleplay reasons.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

If You would made that pit You would've to also decide which type of ranged magblade it will be. For a magsorc it would be just a magsorc. Nighhtblade flexibility in terms of build options gives him massive edge. Also I find it hilarious that Your only defense of nightblade is that I compared it just to a magsorc and You never made an actuall response to points that I've made about adventages that specific nb setups have over the magsorc. Just goes to show that deep down You perfectly know the position that magsorc is in currently.

Sorc is not outperforming nb for solo PvP.

I gave you 5 reasons why Sorc is as efficient as NB. I don't care about your skewed comparison using 1 specific spec of Sorc against the entire NB class. You can have those points unaddressed lol.

For stat ranged magblade, there are max spell damage + Healthy Offering or max magicka + Dampen Ward. For proc magblade, it would be a combination of proc sets + max spell damage + Healthy Offering. Those are the 3 types of ranged magblades you will see. I can guarantee you a mag stacking Sorc will destroy all 3 versions of ranged magblade. It has been the case for years.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Difference between them and nightblades is that when majority of nightblades is also pretty medciore they can deal substentially more dmg than average magsorcs due to having acces to stealth and procs in plethora of setups some of which I already mentioned.

Again, you're pitting 1 spec of Sorc against the entire NB class. A full proc hybrid Sorc is just as aids to deal with as a full proc NB ganker, why aren't you mentioning that?

Galeriano2 wrote: »

1. Do people run with 10k HP in PvP? Yay You can once in a while deal 8k dmg to someone what with remaining 20-30k HP? Is rest of Your dmg kit also unblockable or undodgable?

Are you downplaying Curse's unblockable damage lol? Here let me give you some simple math:

I have 60% block mitigation. Assuming a NB can hit me for a 15.3k crit Merciless Resolve. I hold block, that Merciless Resolve will now hit for 9.1k.

A Sorc can hit me for an 8k crit Haunting Curse. I hold block, I still take an 8k crit Haunting Curse because it's unblockable.

Unblockable damage is always superior, period.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

2. Ah the "above the average" argument. Highly representative to the overall state of PvP. With scribing magsorcs are not that difficult to deal with anymore tbh even on specific meele builds and it's not like they're are the only one that can kite.

Have you taken a look at how players of similar skill level as those magsorcs struggle to kill the magsorcs?

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Ok they will hit You with a random frag and what's after that? If You didn't have a curse on You it's nothing to be worried about and if You had curse on You it's a dead giveaway when their only windown of opportinity will happen so You can easily prepare for it and avoid it.

A random Frag + unblockable Curse, let's nor forget about that. It's no different than the NBs hitting you with a random 15 Merc, but at least you can block half of their dmg lol.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I play a meele class and have no issues fighting magsorcs in BGs. Once again You're bringing a "good players" to support Your argument. If You need to be a good player just to land Your class's basic attacks than that really isn't good advertisement for a class especially that amount of actually good magsorc in the game is miniscule.

I don't either, but that's because I know how to deal with them. Players of the same skill level as those magsorcs will have issues dealing with them.

StaticWave

StaticWave wrote: »

Are you downplaying Curse's unblockable damage lol? Here let me give you some simple math:

I have 60% block mitigation. Assuming a NB can hit me for a 15.3k crit Merciless Resolve. I hold block, that Merciless Resolve will now hit for 9.1k.

A Sorc can hit me for an 8k crit Haunting Curse. I hold block, I still take an 8k crit Haunting Curse because it's unblockable.

Unblockable damage is always superior, period.

I used google calculator and made a slight mistake. The Merciless damage after block mitigation is 9.1k, not 6.1k. It's still 1k higher than Curse, but Curse + cFrag is 100% better than Merc Resolve

kurbbie_s

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I already told You why it won't happen.

source: trust me bro

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So I'm asking how your saying it's basically easy mode and he's working double time from what I can see?

It's rarely easy to fight 1v3, but forget all the rolling because everyone rolls, he only needs to press Ward to both keep his hp up AND preload against the next round of damage. My Warden needs both Polar and Vigor to do that, brawler NB needs to juggle Healthy, Vigor, and Path to do that, Sorc only needs Ward.

If you really don't think there's a difference, try this: replace Hardened Ward and the passive Bound Aegis on your Sorc with Dampened Magic and Resolving Vigor. Let us know how it goes.

no one complains about inferno. lots of skills have double effects now.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

If ZOS commits to giving players access to pre and post ward change stats regardless of winner I'd be down. Otherwise even if I won I really wouldn't want to just decide based on personal experiences and public opinions

Well before that, you should worry about our rocket shoe duel. Since you're casual and don't care about balance, and I'm pretty bad at basketball, I guess you won't mind if I bring an assault rifle. No you can't have one, you don't play my class. You can have a knife I guess. We'll start 100 feet apart to give you a chance since I have bad aim. This sounds really fun and balanced! For me anyway, I don't really care how it goes for you.

Lol neither of us would really care about the outcome then. Good thing about games is there's always another one to be had if you don't like the one you're playing. Honestly I'd just show up and play the game and have fun, if I win I win if I don't, eh

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

If You would made that pit You would've to also decide which type of ranged magblade it will be. For a magsorc it would be just a magsorc. Nighhtblade flexibility in terms of build options gives him massive edge. Also I find it hilarious that Your only defense of nightblade is that I compared it just to a magsorc and You never made an actuall response to points that I've made about adventages that specific nb setups have over the magsorc. Just goes to show that deep down You perfectly know the position that magsorc is in currently.

Sorc is not outperforming nb for solo PvP.

I gave you 5 reasons why Sorc is as efficient as NB. I don't care about your skewed comparison using 1 specific spec of Sorc against the entire NB class. You can have those points unaddressed lol.

For stat ranged magblade, there are max spell damage + Healthy Offering or max magicka + Dampen Ward. For proc magblade, it would be a combination of proc sets + max spell damage + Healthy Offering. Those are the 3 types of ranged magblades you will see. I can guarantee you a mag stacking Sorc will destroy all 3 versions of ranged magblade. It has been the case for years.

And I gave You 5 answers as to why Your reasons were wrong. Like You brought a overload gank playstyle that nobody is even using anymore and last time it was effective few years ago as Your argumentation that sorc is equally effective at ganking as nb. Fact that You gave Your 5 reasons doesn't suddenly make them all valid points. All Your reasons had major flaws in the argumentation but of course when I pointed those flaws You decided to pretty much ignore all of that and instead focus mainly on the fact that I compared a magsorc to whole nb class as Your escape goat argument which doesn't even change much which I also explained why.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Difference between them and nightblades is that when majority of nightblades is also pretty medciore they can deal substentially more dmg than average magsorcs due to having acces to stealth and procs in plethora of setups some of which I already mentioned.

Again, you're pitting 1 spec of Sorc against the entire NB class. A full proc hybrid Sorc is just as aids to deal with as a full proc NB ganker, why aren't you mentioning that?

Galeriano2 wrote: »

1. Do people run with 10k HP in PvP? Yay You can once in a while deal 8k dmg to someone what with remaining 20-30k HP? Is rest of Your dmg kit also unblockable or undodgable?

Are you downplaying Curse's unblockable damage lol? Here let me give you some simple math:

I have 60% block mitigation. Assuming a NB can hit me for a 15.3k crit Merciless Resolve. I hold block, that Merciless Resolve will now hit for 9.1k.

A Sorc can hit me for an 8k crit Haunting Curse. I hold block, I still take an 8k crit Haunting Curse because it's unblockable.

Unblockable damage is always superior, period.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

2. Ah the "above the average" argument. Highly representative to the overall state of PvP. With scribing magsorcs are not that difficult to deal with anymore tbh even on specific meele builds and it's not like they're are the only one that can kite.

Have you taken a look at how players of similar skill level as those magsorcs struggle to kill the magsorcs?

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Ok they will hit You with a random frag and what's after that? If You didn't have a curse on You it's nothing to be worried about and if You had curse on You it's a dead giveaway when their only windown of opportinity will happen so You can easily prepare for it and avoid it.

A random Frag + unblockable Curse, let's nor forget about that. It's no different than the NBs hitting you with a random 15 Merc, but at least you can block half of their dmg lol.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I play a meele class and have no issues fighting magsorcs in BGs. Once again You're bringing a "good players" to support Your argument. If You need to be a good player just to land Your class's basic attacks than that really isn't good advertisement for a class especially that amount of actually good magsorc in the game is miniscule.

I don't either, but that's because I know how to deal with them. Players of the same skill level as those magsorcs will have issues dealing with them.

Again, I explained why. Full proc hybrid sorc is no longer a mag based shieldspamming magsorc which You Yourself complained the most about. Also let's be honet that "full proc hybrid sorc" is still a variation of a stamsorc. Going by Your logic every version of nb setup I mentioned earlier can be pretty much called a "full proc hybrid nb" so I compared a magsorc to a full proc hybrid nb so Your logic itself contradicts Your argumentation that I am comparing magsorc to whole nb class.

1. Unpredictable dmg is more superior. You can always predict curse explosion, game itself tells You when it will hit You. That's not the case for merciless. And since game tells You excatly when curse will hit You, You can prepare and screw whole sorc's combo so it's more of a a kiss curse mechanic ability rather than a full blown adventage. There is a reason sorc combo is considered as one of the most predictable ones and big part of that that reason is curse.

If You would ask sorcs players would they rather want to hit people with 15k blockable curse or 8k unblockable one guess what would they pick.

2. There is plenty of setups where players of similar skill level will struggle to kill eachother.

I literally explained You how easy it is to avoid being hit by curse+random frag and You still went on to use argument of being hit by curse+random frag. Did You even read rest of the quote or just the 1st sentence? No it's not the same as being hit by random merciless because nb is not leaving an ability with a timer on You which tells You exccatly when You need to prepare for potential burst window from him. So You can block a randomly fired merciless but You can't block or dodge a frag when the curse is on You despite the fact curse is dead giveaway when is the right time to do this?

I don't have issues dealing with magsorcs of the same skill level. For me to actually have issue with a magsorc he needs to be a better player than me. Worse players than me will just crutch on brainless shield spam, equally skilled players will do the same plus put a bit of fight but it will be either neverending fight or I will pull through with my dmg since their dmg too much focused on highly predictable combo. And I didn't even took full adventage of scribing which have some abilities that can be very disrupting for magsorcs specifically when utilised properly on specific setups.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

If You would made that pit You would've to also decide which type of ranged magblade it will be. For a magsorc it would be just a magsorc. Nighhtblade flexibility in terms of build options gives him massive edge. Also I find it hilarious that Your only defense of nightblade is that I compared it just to a magsorc and You never made an actuall response to points that I've made about adventages that specific nb setups have over the magsorc. Just goes to show that deep down You perfectly know the position that magsorc is in currently.

Sorc is not outperforming nb for solo PvP.

I gave you 5 reasons why Sorc is as efficient as NB. I don't care about your skewed comparison using 1 specific spec of Sorc against the entire NB class. You can have those points unaddressed lol.

For stat ranged magblade, there are max spell damage + Healthy Offering or max magicka + Dampen Ward. For proc magblade, it would be a combination of proc sets + max spell damage + Healthy Offering. Those are the 3 types of ranged magblades you will see. I can guarantee you a mag stacking Sorc will destroy all 3 versions of ranged magblade. It has been the case for years.

And I gave You 5 answers as to why Your reasons were wrong. Like You brought a overload gank playstyle that nobody is even using anymore and last time it was effective few years ago as Your argumentation that sorc is equally effective at ganking as nb. Fact that You gave Your 5 reasons doesn't suddenly make them all valid points. All Your reasons had major flaws in the argumentation but of course when I pointed those flaws You decided to pretty much ignore all of that and instead focus mainly on the fact that I compared a magsorc to whole nb class as Your escape goat argument which doesn't even change much which I also explained why.

Lol okay i'll address your points.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

1. Overload ganking. Non existant on sorc anymore. When was the last time You've actually have seen overload ganker or any type of sorc ganker vs when was the last time You've seen a nb ganker? And even if overload ganking would be still existant in some form it's still a one trick pony that You can only use once in a while that requires better preparation and awerness of surroundings because there won't be vanishing into stealth after that if You fail.

Sorc can still gank on bow builds. You just have to make a couple adjustments.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

2. Proc abuse. Like I said not a magsorc thing. And if stamsorc was one of the biggest proc sets abusers in game's history than stamblade was and still is the biggest one. Stamsorc is known for becoming stronger every patch he can use some proc sets, nightblade is known for being the best class to use proc sets. Stamsorc just copy patses the meta proc sets from other classes and makes them stronger, nightblade does the same but he can also wear the proc set combos that no other class could utilize in the same manner as nb can. If You're so fond of old times to bring up overload ganking maybe You also remember the most broken proc set combo in history which was viper+widowmaker+tremorscale and which class was wearing it? Thing with abusing procs is that to go full proctard You need to have a skill that will offset investments You've made into going full proc and allow YOu to get full adventage of procs and cloak was always better at it than streak.

Again, you are using 1 spec of the class to compare to the entire NB class. Not a fair comparison and won't be addressed by me.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

3. Front loaded damage. In terms of magsorc it all goes back to what I said in one of my earlier comments. Great for killing noobs not so great against any decent player. Difference between magsorc'burst and nightblad eburst is that nb can burst someone way easier than sorc can because nb doesn't even need a combo or timing up anything to reach higher burst values than a sorc with perfectly timed combo that actually landed on someone.

The drawback is NB's burst is extremely predictable and can be completely countered by blocking. Sorc's combo cannot be 100% countered due to Curse being unblockable and requiring a cleanse, which not many classes have access to.

In this regard, Sorc actually is more efficient at bursting down decent players as a part of its kit is unblockable, whereas NB is better at killing noobs.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

4. Bombard spam. I said "from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb", I don't remember saying anything about bombard or AoE control so I don't know what that argument is doing here.

Magsorc with Shattering Spines is exceptionally good as a crowd control class. I am currently using that on my support/off heal magsorc in a 4-man group. NB cannot match Sorc in this regard, hence Sorc is more efficient.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

5. Unmatched kiting potential. Sorc and nb are both kings in kiting in their own respective fields. While sorc is a master of just streaking away whcihc gives him an edge in open field nb is a master of LoS in closed spaces and elevations. The moment nb reaches some obstacle or elevation he instantly becomes better at kiting than sorc especially magsorc.

Right, each class has its strengths. Sorc is better at surviving in open field, and NB is better at surviving around LoS. Depending on the PvP content you play, either class can be better than the other. Neither are worst at both roles. For that reason, I give them equal efficiency.

StaticWave

And for the people that think Merciless Resolve is better than Curse + Frag, I'm going to have to correct you here because that's just flat-out wrong. There are 3 things you need to remember:

1) Merciless Resolve hits like a truck AFTER receiving Incap debuff
2) Merciless Resolve is not a delayed burst
3) Merciless Resolve is 100% blockable

Due to these 3 reasons, the NB will have to spend 2 GCDs to setup its burst combo (Incap + Merciless Resolve), and make sure that they catch someone off-guard with Off-Balance to guarantee a hit.

In contrast, Sorc does NOT need to worry about this because:

1) Curse is unblockable, meaning nearly half of Sorc's burst is guaranteed to go through
2) Curse is a true delayed burst, meaning it can be combined with another skill in the same GCD to yield a bigger damage value

I went ahead and tested in game to prove my point. My test involved damage taken from a crit Merciless Resolve before AND after Incap debuff, and from a crit Frag + Curse combo. The NB had 26.5k HP with 140 Balorgh ult, and the magsorc had 32k HP with 51k max mag. My resistances are shown below:



And in case you don't believe that the NB had 26.5k HP and the magsorc had 32k HP, here are the screenshots of their HP:

NB:


Magsorc:


Let's look at the numbers for NB.

Here's Merciless Resolve before Incap:



Here's Merciless Resolve after Incap and 140 Balorgh:




Now let's look at the value for Curse + cFrag:




So before Incap, Merciless Resolve critted for 13.3k. After Incap and with 140 Balorgh, Merciless Resolve critted for 17k. Big numbers against a fairly built player like me. But wait, look at the magsorc instead. His Curse critted for 7.7k, and his cFrag critted for 9.6k. That's a 17.3k combined value in 1 GCD. Not amplified by a 140 Balorgh ult or 20% extra damage taken. Literally BASE value. Let's also mention the fact that the Sorc has 6k more HP than the NB.

You literally have to be debuffed by Incap to be taking anything more than 13k from Merciless Resolve. Without the debuff, you're not even matching the same potential as a single Curse + cFrag combo. This is not even mentioning the fact that I can hold block and shut down Merciless Resolve completely, whereas I will still be eating a 7.7k crit Curse through my block.

Assuming I have 60% block mitigation, a 13.3k crit Merciless Resolve will only deal 5.3k damage to me. With that same mitigation, I will take 7.7k damage from Curse, plus another 3.8k from cFrag, totalling 11.5k. More than twice the damage through block, and you're telling me it can only kill noobs? Please lol

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Honestly I'd just show up and play the game and have fun, if I win I win if I don't, eh

Right on! So you'd have no problem deleting the heal on Ward then. Just a game. Nobody cares that much.

kurbbie_s wrote: »

no one complains about inferno. lots of skills have double effects now.

None of the effects other than damage on Inferno would ever be worth casting on their own. Ward is two full skills mashed together, a full burst heal and a full damage shield. It's like mashing Coag Blood and Dampen Magicka into a single skill.

DrNukenstein

It is true that being able to cram 4+ abilities into one GCD is very powerful. That is why procs are so popular. I think it's cool that the ranged class with excellent one button survivability can run a stat build while behaving like a proc circus (with extra and less steps, so the same number of steps)

xylena_lazarow

DrNukenstein wrote: »

It is true that being able to cram 4+ abilities into one GCD is very powerful. That is why procs are so popular. I think it's cool that the ranged class with excellent one button survivability can run a stat build while behaving like a proc circus (with extra and less steps, so the same number of steps)

You just don't get it, Nightblade! Wearing an RNG proc set is for no skill zerg trash, but slotting an RNG proc on your bar is high skill pro gaming. Only a Real MagSorc has a high enough IQ to understand. /s

Joy_Division

@Bushido2513

I met with ZOS in person. I talked to them while they were at an open bar event (and thus more loose with their tongue than they otherwise would be). I sat in their meetings when they were making game decisions.

They don;t give feedback, but they absolutely look at what their players tell them (through various means, not just these forums). People don;t think they take feedback in consideration because ZOS did not select their one specific suggestion among the thousands they receive. They also do not just look at profits. Morrowind and update 35 were wildly unpopular the moment their patch notes were released. They knew they'd lose subs and players, but they went through with these changes precisely because they believed those major alterations were needed for the long term health of the game at the time. I would agree they prioritize resources to stuff like art, making the PvE zones genuinely interesting, and stuff the more competitive players would rather see elsewhere. I sat in the same room with these people; I'm not just saying this.

ZOS often makes the balance decisions they do because I don't feel they have a keen grasp of what is generally known as min-maxing. Without getting into specifics, that was my biggest takeaway whenever we talked about balance. So when high level players make posts such as this, and ZOS can see the back and forth, the nitty gritty so to speak that debates such as this inspire, that is extremely valuable this sort of information is what ZOS needs to hear. While their understanding of min-maxing is less than ideal, they are fully aware of things like bias, subjectivity, and evidence.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Right on! So you'd have no problem deleting the heal on Ward then. Just a game. Nobody cares that much.

Honestly if it were just done to me I wouldn't have a problem. I think it's cool and all but I was also doing pretty well before it and could definitely still play the game without it. Not saying it's not helpful by any means because it is for sure but I just also learned to play at a disadvantage in some situations.