Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

StaticWave · June 19

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Out of pure curosity, from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb? Keep in mind that I've been putting strong emphasis on how easy all mentioned things are to achieve on nb which is a important part to remember when talking about efficiency of something.

Sure, but I don’t think you were being fair. You compared a specific spec (ranged magsorc) to the entire NB class. You should have compared ranged magsorc to ranged magblade, and then we’ll have an actual fair comparison. So to respond to that, ranged magsorc is stronger than ranged magblade, plain and simple. That’s why you rarely see ranged magblades these days.

If you want to compare Sorc vs NB, then I can name you several things Sorc could do with equal efficiency, or even better:

1) Overload ganking

Remember the Overload + Crusing/Ele Wep + Crystal Wep combo? Yea, that got nerfed twice because ppl complained about getting 1 shotted from stealth with it. It was akin to getting one shotted by a heavy attack ganker because all the damage was registered instantly when the Overload lands

2) Proc abuse

Stamsorc has always been one of the biggest proc abusers in history. Just to name an example: Deadlands + Ashen Grip + Vate + mDW, remember that? That build could 1 shot anyone that isn’t a 40k HP tank. No other class could replicate that hit and run playstyle, not even NB. You think proc NB gankers are troublesome? With that old build I could Streak thru them, medium weave, and they’d explode.

3) Front-loaded damage

Why do you think people stack proc sets? It’s to front load as much damage as possible and kill someone before they can react.

You see, Sorc just happens to have Curse, Bound Arms, and Cwep, which can all be timed together to burst someone before they can react. I’ve done it many times, and people go from 100 to 20 in an instant.

I did all that with pure stat sets. What do you think will happen when I slot procs like NB?

4) Bombard spam

Stamsorc is THE perfect class for this playstyle. I actually run this spec right now in my group because it’s just too good. Bombard + Streak to lock down an entire group and stun them so your teammates can follow up, plus Streak allows you to reposition extremely easy. I’ve seen NBs try to do the same but they can never replicate the same efficiency. It’s akin to me trying to be a Cloak Sorc with Stealth potions.

5) Unmatched kiting potential

Sorc forever remains undefeated when it comes to kiting. Sure NB can use Cloak and Shade with high movement speed to kite, but you aren’t kiting a zerg in open field on NB. Only Sorc can do that via Streak spam.

Turtle_Bot · June 19

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Out of pure curosity, from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb? Keep in mind that I've been putting strong emphasis on how easy all mentioned things are to achieve on nb which is a important part to remember when talking about efficiency of something.

Sure, but I don’t think you were being fair. You compared a specific spec (ranged magsorc) to the entire NB class. You should have compared ranged magsorc to ranged magblade, and then we’ll have an actual fair comparison. So to respond to that, ranged magsorc is stronger than ranged magblade, plain and simple. That’s why you rarely see ranged magblades these days.

If you want to compare Sorc vs NB, then I can name you several things Sorc could do with equal efficiency, or even better:

1) Overload ganking

Remember the Overload + Crusing/Ele Wep + Crystal Wep combo? Yea, that got nerfed twice because ppl complained about getting 1 shotted from stealth with it. It was akin to getting one shotted by a heavy attack ganker because all the damage was registered instantly when the Overload lands

2) Proc abuse

Stamsorc has always been one of the biggest proc abusers in history. Just to name an example: Deadlands + Ashen Grip + Vate + mDW, remember that? That build could 1 shot anyone that isn’t a 40k HP tank. No other class could replicate that hit and run playstyle, not even NB. You think proc NB gankers are troublesome? With that old build I could Streak thru them, medium weave, and they’d explode.

3) Front-loaded damage

Why do you think people stack proc sets? It’s to front load as much damage as possible and kill someone before they can react.

You see, Sorc just happens to have Curse, Bound Arms, and Cwep, which can all be timed together to burst someone before they can react. I’ve done it many times, and people go from 100 to 20 in an instant.

I did all that with pure stat sets. What do you think will happen when I slot procs like NB?

4) Bombard spam

Stamsorc is THE perfect class for this playstyle. I actually run this spec right now in my group because it’s just too good. Bombard + Streak to lock down an entire group and stun them so your teammates can follow up, plus Streak allows you to reposition extremely easy. I’ve seen NBs try to do the same but they can never replicate the same efficiency. It’s akin to me trying to be a Cloak Sorc with Stealth potions.

5) Unmatched kiting potential

Sorc forever remains undefeated when it comes to kiting. Sure NB can use Cloak and Shade with high movement speed to kite, but you aren’t kiting a zerg in open field on NB. Only Sorc can do that via Streak spam.

The thing is that ranged magsorc should be compared to melee magblade, because those are the 2 strongest builds for those 2 specs/classes and what those classes are designed around doing. Comparing range magsorc to range magblade is comparing apples to oranges because your taking the BiS build for 1 class that it is specifically designed to do and comparing it to a mediocre build for the other class that it was not designed for.

If we are to talk about range magblade vs a sorc build, then it should be compared to melee magsorc, both are specs that are not how those classes are designed to play and both are easily outperformed by their stamina counterparts (2h/dw sorc and bow blade) of those same specs.

I also want to touch on your other points here, as they mostly apply for stamsorc and are much less applicable to magsorc, and this comes down to how sorc is designed and how it functions in general, both offensively and defensively for these specs.
1) Overload ganking
This hasn't been a thing for like 3 years now and it was typically stamsorcs (well stam disguised as hybrid "because it runs curse") that abused this interaction the best thanks to the objectively superior DW/2h weapons/passives that still applied despite overload making the light attacks a ranged class ability instead of a melee weapon attack.
2) Proc abuse
Magsorc can't take advantage of proc sets like stamsorc can, because magsorcs defense (ward) scales off max mag, not raw damage, so for magsorc it's either big ward or big proc sets, not both. Stamsorc doesn't have to worry as much about this because it can either ignore ward entirely (which it did pre-U41) or invest into health instead of mag, becoming a pseudo polar warden but with streak, and not have to worry about that conflicting scaling.
3) Front-loaded damage
Magsorc doesn't have the same front loaded damage that stamsorc has, magsorc can't use armaments because it needs aegis for ward (result of unfinished hybridization and one of the reasons I want BA + morphs looked at), it can technically use crystal weapon, but will still not be as good with it over using frags. It might not seem like much, but that lack of armaments (now that stamsorc gets to freely use curse) is a significant portion of a sorcs burst combo that magsorc just doesn't have an equivalent ability that can fill.
4) Bombard spam
You did note that this was stamsorc specific But, for anyone interested in the reasons why, I also went much more in depth over this sub-topic of stamina vs magicka when it comes to sorc and why the 2 specs are so different and can't use the same rotations/playstyles as each other like other classes can for their stamina/magicka specs a few pages back (well probably a lot of pages back by now...).
5) Unmatched kiting potential
Magsorc doesn't have the natural base speed to kite as well or as consistently as stamsorc, not to say it can't kite at all, especially in the hands of a good player, but due to the base speed difference between the 2 specs, stamsorc is just significantly better and easier (i.e. more efficient) to kite with, specifically being less dependent on streak to create that distance, than magsorc will ever be, and is part of the reason stamsorc has never truly needed to run shields or rely as much on having access to a proper burst heal, which it got in the form of heal soul with scribing (and it's a damn good heal too) and the changes to blood magic and even vibrant shroud. It is also the reason why stamsorc can abuse that hit and run playstyle so well while magsorc cannot, even NB was better at it pre-U41.

This is not to say that magsorc can't do these things at all, but stamsorc just does all of these things significantly better, more efficiently and easier than magsorc will ever be able to unless sorcs entire kit gets completely reworked (see hybridized) to facilitate those kiting/mobile playstyles for the magicka spec of sorc as well as the stamina spec.

Now, onto what magsorc can do with equal (or better) efficiency to NB (or stamsorc):
1) Face tank
This has only really been true since the change to ward (giving it a burst heal), before this specific change (at least after wards as a mechanic got gutted all those years ago in favor of block healing alongside the changes to heals scaling off damage), NB was still much stronger and more efficient than magsorc at doing this, especially after offering got buffed.
2) Stat builds
It has to be, since by design, magsorc is excluded from being able to make efficient use of procs sets (the meta way to PvP in ESO for a long time now) due to how magsorcs defense (ward) and procs scale off different stats that conflict when trying to make a good PvP build, where as NB's healing scales with the same stats as proc sets so it gets to use those much more efficiently and to a much higher result than magsorc can. The only exceptions to this have been completely broken proc sets such as original Dark Convergence, original Mara's Balm, original (bugged) Hrothgar's Chill that were just as effective on all classes as they were on sorc.
3) Defensive Negate bot
Stamsorc is still the better offensive negate bot for setting up group ulti dumps due to its stronger damage/lockdown/pressure/mobility, but magsorc has always been better for defensive negates due to making better use of resto staff skills and support abilities like cleanse from the support line that inherently cost mag to use as well as ward stacking making it sturdier for face-tanking than stamsorc when trying to survive incoming damage. NB is similar to stamsorc here, but with a tether stun instead of negate silence.

StaticWave · June 19

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The thing is that ranged magsorc should be compared to melee magblade, because those are the 2 strongest builds for those 2 specs/classes and what those classes are designed around doing. Comparing range magsorc to range magblade is comparing apples to oranges because your taking the BiS build for 1 class that it is specifically designed to do and comparing it to a mediocre build for the other class that it was not designed for.

To match NB efficiency, your class would have to be pretty strong in the first place. If you say magsorc should be compared to melee magblade, then his statement that stamsorc can do better than magsorc in replicating NB efficiency is false.

Galeriano2 · June 19

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Out of pure curosity, from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb? Keep in mind that I've been putting strong emphasis on how easy all mentioned things are to achieve on nb which is a important part to remember when talking about efficiency of something.

Sure, but I don’t think you were being fair. You compared a specific spec (ranged magsorc) to the entire NB class. You should have compared ranged magsorc to ranged magblade, and then we’ll have an actual fair comparison. So to respond to that, ranged magsorc is stronger than ranged magblade, plain and simple. That’s why you rarely see ranged magblades these days.

If you want to compare Sorc vs NB, then I can name you several things Sorc could do with equal efficiency, or even better:

1) Overload ganking

Remember the Overload + Crusing/Ele Wep + Crystal Wep combo? Yea, that got nerfed twice because ppl complained about getting 1 shotted from stealth with it. It was akin to getting one shotted by a heavy attack ganker because all the damage was registered instantly when the Overload lands

2) Proc abuse

Stamsorc has always been one of the biggest proc abusers in history. Just to name an example: Deadlands + Ashen Grip + Vate + mDW, remember that? That build could 1 shot anyone that isn’t a 40k HP tank. No other class could replicate that hit and run playstyle, not even NB. You think proc NB gankers are troublesome? With that old build I could Streak thru them, medium weave, and they’d explode.

3) Front-loaded damage

Why do you think people stack proc sets? It’s to front load as much damage as possible and kill someone before they can react.

You see, Sorc just happens to have Curse, Bound Arms, and Cwep, which can all be timed together to burst someone before they can react. I’ve done it many times, and people go from 100 to 20 in an instant.

I did all that with pure stat sets. What do you think will happen when I slot procs like NB?

4) Bombard spam

Stamsorc is THE perfect class for this playstyle. I actually run this spec right now in my group because it’s just too good. Bombard + Streak to lock down an entire group and stun them so your teammates can follow up, plus Streak allows you to reposition extremely easy. I’ve seen NBs try to do the same but they can never replicate the same efficiency. It’s akin to me trying to be a Cloak Sorc with Stealth potions.

5) Unmatched kiting potential

Sorc forever remains undefeated when it comes to kiting. Sure NB can use Cloak and Shade with high movement speed to kite, but you aren’t kiting a zerg in open field on NB. Only Sorc can do that via Streak spam.

I compared magsorc to varietry of different nb setups just to point out how much more freedom nb have. No matter what setup magsorc is picking he will almost always end up being pretty much the same, a ranged DD with shield as main source of defense and predictable burst combo as his main source of getting kills. The old saying "same s*** , different flavour perfectly describes all the options that magsorc have atm. Nightblade on the other hand? There is plenty to choose from and class itself is way mre comfportable in this new hybrydisation era. People even stopped name their builds as mag or stam nightblade and now very often You will just see a PvP nightblade setup without mag or stam prefix because You can mix and match Your resources freely. Sorc currently have a much heavier split between mag and stam than nb. This is why saying that I should compare ranged magsorc specifically to a ranged magblade is na bit silly because You want me to compare basically a only version of the playstyle that sorc can build on that side of the spectrum to a one of many versions of the playstyles that nb can build. And funnily enough almost all the setups I've mentioned could be used by ranged magblade and if You want to claim that for example having to use incap no longer makes magblade truly ranged class because now and than he needs to enter meele distance than going by this logic the need to use streak to stun enemies no longer makes magsorc a ranged class because once in a while he needs to enter meele distance.

1. Overload ganking. Non existant on sorc anymore. When was the last time You've actually have seen overload ganker or any type of sorc ganker vs when was the last time You've seen a nb ganker? And even if overload ganking would be still existant in some form it's still a one trick pony that You can only use once in a while that requires better preparation and awerness of surroundings because there won't be vanishing into stealth after that if You fail.

2. Proc abuse. Like I said not a magsorc thing. And if stamsorc was one of the biggest proc sets abusers in game's history than stamblade was and still is the biggest one. Stamsorc is known for becoming stronger every patch he can use some proc sets, nightblade is known for being the best class to use proc sets. Stamsorc just copy patses the meta proc sets from other classes and makes them stronger, nightblade does the same but he can also wear the proc set combos that no other class could utilize in the same manner as nb can. If You're so fond of old times to bring up overload ganking maybe You also remember the most broken proc set combo in history which was viper+widowmaker+tremorscale and which class was wearing it? Thing with abusing procs is that to go full proctard You need to have a skill that will offset investments You've made into going full proc and allow YOu to get full adventage of procs and cloak was always better at it than streak.

3. Front loaded damage. In terms of magsorc it all goes back to what I said in one of my earlier comments. Great for killing noobs not so great against any decent player. Difference between magsorc'burst and nightblad eburst is that nb can burst someone way easier than sorc can because nb doesn't even need a combo or timing up anything to reach higher burst values than a sorc with perfectly timed combo that actually landed on someone.

4. Bombard spam. I said "from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb", I don't remember saying anything about bombard or AoE control so I don't know what that argument is doing here.

5. Unmatched kiting potential. Sorc and nb are both kings in kiting in their own respective fields. While sorc is a master of just streaking away whcihc gives him an edge in open field nb is a master of LoS in closed spaces and elevations. The moment nb reaches some obstacle or elevation he instantly becomes better at kiting than sorc especially magsorc.

Bushido2513 · June 19

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

And this brings up a good point that really is an issue when people try to say what pvp is or isn't. We all play the same game but get different experiences based on so many varied factors. Who you play against, your level of skill, etc.

Said this over and over, surely the devs can figure a way to help casual Sorcs without breaking competitive play.

Technically speaking yes since it's all programming and math. A great example of this never happening is not having separate balance for pvp and pve or for duels and so on. Also what leads you or anyone to believe this game cares much about competitive balance more than overall appeal?

xylena_lazarow · June 19

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also what leads you or anyone to believe this game cares much about competitive balance more than overall appeal?

If you don't care about competitive balance, why are you still talking ITT? You also don't speak for every "casual" player, last I checked, game elements shouldn't just be fun to play with, but also fun to fight against. Ward is not. Going up against "haha funny button go brrrr" is not fun at any skill level in any game. Zone chats are constantly memeing stuff like "Hardened Ward now also does your taxes" lol, high skill ceiling class no more, MagSorc is now a joke.

StaticWave · June 19

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

And this brings up a good point that really is an issue when people try to say what pvp is or isn't. We all play the same game but get different experiences based on so many varied factors. Who you play against, your level of skill, etc.

Said this over and over, surely the devs can figure a way to help casual Sorcs without breaking competitive play.

Technically speaking yes since it's all programming and math. A great example of this never happening is not having separate balance for pvp and pve or for duels and so on. Also what leads you or anyone to believe this game cares much about competitive balance more than overall appeal?

Actual casual players don’t care how Ward performs. Only the fake casuals pretend they’re casual so they have a reason to say Ward shouldn’t be nerfed.

StaticWave · June 19

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Out of pure curosity, from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb? Keep in mind that I've been putting strong emphasis on how easy all mentioned things are to achieve on nb which is a important part to remember when talking about efficiency of something.

Sure, but I don’t think you were being fair. You compared a specific spec (ranged magsorc) to the entire NB class. You should have compared ranged magsorc to ranged magblade, and then we’ll have an actual fair comparison. So to respond to that, ranged magsorc is stronger than ranged magblade, plain and simple. That’s why you rarely see ranged magblades these days.

If you want to compare Sorc vs NB, then I can name you several things Sorc could do with equal efficiency, or even better:

1) Overload ganking

Remember the Overload + Crusing/Ele Wep + Crystal Wep combo? Yea, that got nerfed twice because ppl complained about getting 1 shotted from stealth with it. It was akin to getting one shotted by a heavy attack ganker because all the damage was registered instantly when the Overload lands

2) Proc abuse

Stamsorc has always been one of the biggest proc abusers in history. Just to name an example: Deadlands + Ashen Grip + Vate + mDW, remember that? That build could 1 shot anyone that isn’t a 40k HP tank. No other class could replicate that hit and run playstyle, not even NB. You think proc NB gankers are troublesome? With that old build I could Streak thru them, medium weave, and they’d explode.

3) Front-loaded damage

Why do you think people stack proc sets? It’s to front load as much damage as possible and kill someone before they can react.

You see, Sorc just happens to have Curse, Bound Arms, and Cwep, which can all be timed together to burst someone before they can react. I’ve done it many times, and people go from 100 to 20 in an instant.

I did all that with pure stat sets. What do you think will happen when I slot procs like NB?

4) Bombard spam

Stamsorc is THE perfect class for this playstyle. I actually run this spec right now in my group because it’s just too good. Bombard + Streak to lock down an entire group and stun them so your teammates can follow up, plus Streak allows you to reposition extremely easy. I’ve seen NBs try to do the same but they can never replicate the same efficiency. It’s akin to me trying to be a Cloak Sorc with Stealth potions.

5) Unmatched kiting potential

Sorc forever remains undefeated when it comes to kiting. Sure NB can use Cloak and Shade with high movement speed to kite, but you aren’t kiting a zerg in open field on NB. Only Sorc can do that via Streak spam.

I compared magsorc to varietry of different nb setups just to point out how much more freedom nb have. No matter what setup magsorc is picking he will almost always end up being pretty much the same, a ranged DD with shield as main source of defense and predictable burst combo as his main source of getting kills. The old saying "same s*** , different flavour perfectly describes all the options that magsorc have atm. Nightblade on the other hand? There is plenty to choose from and class itself is way mre comfportable in this new hybrydisation era. People even stopped name their builds as mag or stam nightblade and now very often You will just see a PvP nightblade setup without mag or stam prefix because You can mix and match Your resources freely. Sorc currently have a much heavier split between mag and stam than nb. This is why saying that I should compare ranged magsorc specifically to a ranged magblade is na bit silly because You want me to compare basically a only version of the playstyle that sorc can build on that side of the spectrum to a one of many versions of the playstyles that nb can build. And funnily enough almost all the setups I've mentioned could be used by ranged magblade and if You want to claim that for example having to use incap no longer makes magblade truly ranged class because now and than he needs to enter meele distance than going by this logic the need to use streak to stun enemies no longer makes magsorc a ranged class because once in a while he needs to enter meele distance.

1. Overload ganking. Non existant on sorc anymore. When was the last time You've actually have seen overload ganker or any type of sorc ganker vs when was the last time You've seen a nb ganker? And even if overload ganking would be still existant in some form it's still a one trick pony that You can only use once in a while that requires better preparation and awerness of surroundings because there won't be vanishing into stealth after that if You fail.

2. Proc abuse. Like I said not a magsorc thing. And if stamsorc was one of the biggest proc sets abusers in game's history than stamblade was and still is the biggest one. Stamsorc is known for becoming stronger every patch he can use some proc sets, nightblade is known for being the best class to use proc sets. Stamsorc just copy patses the meta proc sets from other classes and makes them stronger, nightblade does the same but he can also wear the proc set combos that no other class could utilize in the same manner as nb can. If You're so fond of old times to bring up overload ganking maybe You also remember the most broken proc set combo in history which was viper+widowmaker+tremorscale and which class was wearing it? Thing with abusing procs is that to go full proctard You need to have a skill that will offset investments You've made into going full proc and allow YOu to get full adventage of procs and cloak was always better at it than streak.

3. Front loaded damage. In terms of magsorc it all goes back to what I said in one of my earlier comments. Great for killing noobs not so great against any decent player. Difference between magsorc'burst and nightblad eburst is that nb can burst someone way easier than sorc can because nb doesn't even need a combo or timing up anything to reach higher burst values than a sorc with perfectly timed combo that actually landed on someone.

4. Bombard spam. I said "from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb", I don't remember saying anything about bombard or AoE control so I don't know what that argument is doing here.

5. Unmatched kiting potential. Sorc and nb are both kings in kiting in their own respective fields. While sorc is a master of just streaking away whcihc gives him an edge in open field nb is a master of LoS in closed spaces and elevations. The moment nb reaches some obstacle or elevation he instantly becomes better at kiting than sorc especially magsorc.

As I’ve said at the beginning of my comment, you pitting a specific Sorc spec (magsorc) against the entire NB class with multiple specs (gankblades, brawlerblades, proc blades, etc.) makes the comparison unfair.

I could pit a ranged magNB against all iterations of Sorc (stam and mag), and you could say the same thing about magNB as you would magSorc. It’s just not fair to do so.

All iterations of Sorc vs NB would be a more appropriate comparison. In that scenario, Sorc in general outperforms NB for solo PvP.

StaticWave · June 19

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Out of pure curosity, from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb? Keep in mind that I've been putting strong emphasis on how easy all mentioned things are to achieve on nb which is a important part to remember when talking about efficiency of something.

Sure, but I don’t think you were being fair. You compared a specific spec (ranged magsorc) to the entire NB class. You should have compared ranged magsorc to ranged magblade, and then we’ll have an actual fair comparison. So to respond to that, ranged magsorc is stronger than ranged magblade, plain and simple. That’s why you rarely see ranged magblades these days.

If you want to compare Sorc vs NB, then I can name you several things Sorc could do with equal efficiency, or even better:

1) Overload ganking

Remember the Overload + Crusing/Ele Wep + Crystal Wep combo? Yea, that got nerfed twice because ppl complained about getting 1 shotted from stealth with it. It was akin to getting one shotted by a heavy attack ganker because all the damage was registered instantly when the Overload lands

2) Proc abuse

Stamsorc has always been one of the biggest proc abusers in history. Just to name an example: Deadlands + Ashen Grip + Vate + mDW, remember that? That build could 1 shot anyone that isn’t a 40k HP tank. No other class could replicate that hit and run playstyle, not even NB. You think proc NB gankers are troublesome? With that old build I could Streak thru them, medium weave, and they’d explode.

3) Front-loaded damage

Why do you think people stack proc sets? It’s to front load as much damage as possible and kill someone before they can react.

You see, Sorc just happens to have Curse, Bound Arms, and Cwep, which can all be timed together to burst someone before they can react. I’ve done it many times, and people go from 100 to 20 in an instant.

I did all that with pure stat sets. What do you think will happen when I slot procs like NB?

4) Bombard spam

Stamsorc is THE perfect class for this playstyle. I actually run this spec right now in my group because it’s just too good. Bombard + Streak to lock down an entire group and stun them so your teammates can follow up, plus Streak allows you to reposition extremely easy. I’ve seen NBs try to do the same but they can never replicate the same efficiency. It’s akin to me trying to be a Cloak Sorc with Stealth potions.

5) Unmatched kiting potential

Sorc forever remains undefeated when it comes to kiting. Sure NB can use Cloak and Shade with high movement speed to kite, but you aren’t kiting a zerg in open field on NB. Only Sorc can do that via Streak spam.

I compared magsorc to varietry of different nb setups just to point out how much more freedom nb have. No matter what setup magsorc is picking he will almost always end up being pretty much the same, a ranged DD with shield as main source of defense and predictable burst combo as his main source of getting kills. The old saying "same s*** , different flavour perfectly describes all the options that magsorc have atm. Nightblade on the other hand? There is plenty to choose from and class itself is way mre comfportable in this new hybrydisation era. People even stopped name their builds as mag or stam nightblade and now very often You will just see a PvP nightblade setup without mag or stam prefix because You can mix and match Your resources freely. Sorc currently have a much heavier split between mag and stam than nb. This is why saying that I should compare ranged magsorc specifically to a ranged magblade is na bit silly because You want me to compare basically a only version of the playstyle that sorc can build on that side of the spectrum to a one of many versions of the playstyles that nb can build. And funnily enough almost all the setups I've mentioned could be used by ranged magblade and if You want to claim that for example having to use incap no longer makes magblade truly ranged class because now and than he needs to enter meele distance than going by this logic the need to use streak to stun enemies no longer makes magsorc a ranged class because once in a while he needs to enter meele distance.

1. Overload ganking. Non existant on sorc anymore. When was the last time You've actually have seen overload ganker or any type of sorc ganker vs when was the last time You've seen a nb ganker? And even if overload ganking would be still existant in some form it's still a one trick pony that You can only use once in a while that requires better preparation and awerness of surroundings because there won't be vanishing into stealth after that if You fail.

2. Proc abuse. Like I said not a magsorc thing. And if stamsorc was one of the biggest proc sets abusers in game's history than stamblade was and still is the biggest one. Stamsorc is known for becoming stronger every patch he can use some proc sets, nightblade is known for being the best class to use proc sets. Stamsorc just copy patses the meta proc sets from other classes and makes them stronger, nightblade does the same but he can also wear the proc set combos that no other class could utilize in the same manner as nb can. If You're so fond of old times to bring up overload ganking maybe You also remember the most broken proc set combo in history which was viper+widowmaker+tremorscale and which class was wearing it? Thing with abusing procs is that to go full proctard You need to have a skill that will offset investments You've made into going full proc and allow YOu to get full adventage of procs and cloak was always better at it than streak.

3. Front loaded damage. In terms of magsorc it all goes back to what I said in one of my earlier comments. Great for killing noobs not so great against any decent player. Difference between magsorc'burst and nightblad eburst is that nb can burst someone way easier than sorc can because nb doesn't even need a combo or timing up anything to reach higher burst values than a sorc with perfectly timed combo that actually landed on someone.

4. Bombard spam. I said "from the things I described what are the things that You think magsorc can do with equall efficieny as nb", I don't remember saying anything about bombard or AoE control so I don't know what that argument is doing here.

5. Unmatched kiting potential. Sorc and nb are both kings in kiting in their own respective fields. While sorc is a master of just streaking away whcihc gives him an edge in open field nb is a master of LoS in closed spaces and elevations. The moment nb reaches some obstacle or elevation he instantly becomes better at kiting than sorc especially magsorc.

Btw, NB has been pretty easy for me to deal with. I took lots of Ls in duels for the past 4-5 months to learn how to counter their combo via blocking. The class has not been an issue for me since. I also play with 36k+ HP in Rallying Cry, so solo gankers aren’t a problem for me either. The only times they’re a huge threat is when they Xv1 me.

Magsorc on the other hand, has become a serious threat. It’s not so much that their combo is hard to predict. It isn’t. It’s because of these reasons:

1) Curse is unblockable and can crit for 8k+ through Rallying Cry

2) The above average magsorcs will kite a lot, making you chase them. Super difficult to deal with as melee

3) When chasing them, you have to drop block, which means a free cFrag hit unless you keep an eye on their cFrag visual effect

4) Speaking about keeping an eye on cFrag visual effect, there are also several visual effects on their character masking the actual visual effect of cFrag, plus it’s harder to see it while you’re further away from them

It’s so easy to prove these points by playing a melee class and dueling a magsorc that knows how to kite.

So yes, magsorc combo is predictable but good players can and will abuse it to make it super difficult for you to catch them and block their attacks. If you don’t believe me, just play as a melee character against a decent magsorc.

xylena_lazarow · June 19

StaticWave wrote: »

So yes, magsorc combo is predictable but good players can and will abuse it to make it super difficult for you to catch them and block their attacks. If you don’t believe me, just play as a melee character against a decent magsorc.

Brings up another thing Sorcs do better than NBs: pressure. Most NBs do very little damage outside their (telegraphed) burst attempts, as they generally lack dots and need to be in close for their strong direct hits, so it's usually pretty easy to keep your resource pools and hp up against them and avoid being hit often.

MagSorcs though, they will constant be smacking you from max range, meaning you constantly have to spend resources to counter that damage, as well as the resources you spend chasing them as they Streak around. This gives a skilled MagSorc player yet another path to winning, attrition grinding their opponent out of resources.

Their ranged 1v1 pressure also makes them very good target focus DDs for 3-4 person smallscale groups, with back bar Negate adding incredible group utility to an otherwise selfish spec. Thinking outside MagSorc for a sec, Sorc also probably makes the best Azureblight bomber, one of the few things that can threaten a ball group.

Durham · June 19

Range vs Melee PVP is broken atm. Why run melee when it does the same damage as range, especially with the status effect changes?

The 7-meter limitation is huge in this game for a very modest if any increase in damage. The increase in CC in this game has grown by a ton over the past year this has further pushed melee on other classes regulated to towers.

Sorcs for example are now very tanky, and extremely mobile and stun you on cool down, and when they stun you they port 15 meters away. No sorc should lose to a Melee class other than a Nightblade. Keep in mind that Sorcs ranged tool kits straight up out damage the Warden class, Dk class, Necro class, and Templar class. Sorcs have by far the best open-field maneuvering.

Speed is king in PVP, currently the fastest two classes Sorcs and Night blades, and both of these excel and ranged damage and melee damage. Not only do they have the damage, and tanking ability but also speed.

Correct me if Im wrong here but the hardest-hitting ability in the game is ranged correct, and it's on the Night Blade.

This is a Nightblade and Sorc meta.

Bushido2513 · June 19

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also what leads you or anyone to believe this game cares much about competitive balance more than overall appeal?

If you don't care about competitive balance, why are you still talking ITT? You also don't speak for every "casual" player, last I checked, game elements shouldn't just be fun to play with, but also fun to fight against. Ward is not. Going up against "haha funny button go brrrr" is not fun at any skill level in any game. Zone chats are constantly memeing stuff like "Hardened Ward now also does your taxes" lol, high skill ceiling class no more, MagSorc is now a joke.

I'm not saying I don't care about competitive balance. I very much enjoy it when I ask why you think this game cares about it in asking why you think ZOS cares about it being that this basically don't do anything to foster it properly?

I can only really speak for myself, same as any person in this thread that hasn't been given permission to represent anyone other than themselves .

So you're kind of making my point. Things in this game have continued to get easier and easier while moving away from skill. Maybe that's just the intended direction and not just a series of mistakes is all I'm saying people might want to take into account.

Bushido2513 · June 19

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

And this brings up a good point that really is an issue when people try to say what pvp is or isn't. We all play the same game but get different experiences based on so many varied factors. Who you play against, your level of skill, etc.

Said this over and over, surely the devs can figure a way to help casual Sorcs without breaking competitive play.

Technically speaking yes since it's all programming and math. A great example of this never happening is not having separate balance for pvp and pve or for duels and so on. Also what leads you or anyone to believe this game cares much about competitive balance more than overall appeal?

Actual casual players don’t care how Ward performs. Only the fake casuals pretend they’re casual so they have a reason to say Ward shouldn’t be nerfed.

Why would someone have to pretend to be something in order to just say they think ward shouldn't be nerfed?

Every reason given in this thread is based on personal bias so why would anyone have to pretend to hide it when nobody else in this thread is hiding theirs?

This is still a video game we're talking about right?

StaticWave · June 19

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Why would someone have to pretend to be something in order to just say they think ward shouldn't be nerfed?

Personal agenda? Everyone here has one but some people are more truthful when it comes to showing their agenda.

xylena_lazarow · June 19

@Bushido2513 what player demographic do you most identify with? At various points ITT you've tried to speak as a casual player who runs casual off meta builds, others where you claim to duel and 1vX. Making hundreds of posts ITT is also a lot more investment in this game than what most would consider casual.

Dracane · June 19

StaticWave wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Survival strategies absolutely have to endure one opponent rather comfortably, for else you trip over the moment you face several (which is the majority of pvp) This is why I will never agree with duels as a guideline for balance. I don't disregard it, because they do happen in the wild too, and yes it can be frustrating, (against any class) but I would not lead this as my flagship for a balance discussion.

Then every single concern about how tanky other classes are should also be a non-concern. Nobody should complain about how NB, DK, Arc, etc are tanky because they will also fold when faced with overwhelming numbers.

Even if they can tank overwhelming number of players, they aren't going to do big damage unless they're grouped with other players.

No classes should get nerfed then. Is this what you want?

Yes, why not? I do not want anyone to get nerfed, and I also did not complain about tanky NB, DK, Arcs etc.
They do bother me, and I find their approach pointless and weird, but it's up to them if they enjoy the playstyle of running around objects until either out of ressources or luck aligns into an epic burst. I do not enjoy it myself though. I go full fire, jolo, or however you want to call it.

And saying "Nobody should complain" is hardly up to you or me. People can complain all they want. Rarely anything ever comes from it anyway. (from a balance change perspective)

Dracane · June 19

StaticWave wrote: »

Btw, you can also build high spell damage now. Competitive healing options are no longer absent on magsorc. There’s contingency, healing soul, and Vibrant Shroud with new Blood Magic. If you choose to go with an “inferior” stat option, that is ON YOU. It’s not a valid argument anymore to defend Ward’s overperformance.

So are you admitting that you just want Ward nerfed for the sake of it, because you would like the Magsorc archetype deleted from the game again? All this @ ZoS spam certainly makes it seem very desperate and urgent.

When there are now all those shiny healing options available ( spell damage based = much superior damage stat than magicka) and some Sorcs choose to either drop Ward, or greatly weakening it by omitting magicka, is there really a problem anymore? If Ward is used less and seen less, then maybe it just balanced itself by merit of build diversity? Perhaps that is all it took, because Magsorc is only viable with very specific builds. And that was ultra magicka until now.

I myself have indeed began to see some of these wardless Magsorcs.

Bushido2513 · June 19

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Why would someone have to pretend to be something in order to just say they think ward shouldn't be nerfed?

Personal agenda? Everyone here has one but some people are more truthful when it comes to showing their agenda.

Ok so you're saying someone thinks that being a casual carries more weight so pretend to be one so your vote means more?

So do you believe that the casual's vote on issues like ward carry more weight to ZOS or the people on this forum?

I mean I think casuals make up a majority in the game and are more valuable to ZOS but if that's the case that would certainly be a large vote for ZOS leaving Ward as is since casuals seem to enjoy or at least not care about it.

Bushido2513 · June 19

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@Bushido2513 what player demographic do you most identify with? At various points ITT you've tried to speak as a casual player who runs casual off meta builds, others where you claim to duel and 1vX. Making hundreds of posts ITT is also a lot more investment in this game than what most would consider casual.

Actually I'm casual now but used to play the game with much more intensity. I watched over time as the game moved to a more and more casual state and lost interest in building and fighting competitively since it became clear which direction ZOS was headed in.

Obviously you can still play the game and have fun but it's very different from the times when skill difference was more appreciable.

I doubt I've given this thread hundreds of or even a hundred posts. I just check/ update when I get around to it and feel like it. Wouldn't even be a drop in the bucket to my in game playtime in previous years.

DrNukenstein · June 19

In a game where you do not have to aim, ranged classes will always be a tedious thing to balance. One way to balance them is to deny them the ability to stay alive while they're just kinda standing there.

Another is to ensure that their damage is weak, laughable, and impossible to combo with their own CC

Bushido2513 · June 19

DrNukenstein wrote: »

In a game where you do not have to aim, ranged classes will always be a tedious thing to balance. One way to balance them is to deny them the ability to stay alive while they're just kinda standing there.

Another is to ensure that their damage is weak, laughable, and impossible to combo with their own CC

Everyone has different experiences but for me the only time I've felt in danger at range with ESO in is when snipe hit harder and combined with desynchronization. Otherwise with using los, closing the distance, etc I've usually been able to some degree level the playing field.

ESO in my opinion gives some great counters to range if you play smart or just flat out use class abilities.

xylena_lazarow · June 19

Bushido2513 wrote: »

it became clear which direction...

...which direction you were headed in. Just you. Other players still compete, and the devs still try to balance.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

In a game where you do not have to aim

But unlike range, melee attacks do need to be aimed, and have to deal with idiotic cast delays on top of aiming. MagSorc is the game's archetypal caster mage spec yet doesn't actually have to cast (or aim) anything unless you go full potato on your frags. The 2h melee warrior line has more cast time skills (3) than any magical caster line in the game.

StaticWave · June 20

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Why would someone have to pretend to be something in order to just say they think ward shouldn't be nerfed?

Personal agenda? Everyone here has one but some people are more truthful when it comes to showing their agenda.

Ok so you're saying someone thinks that being a casual carries more weight so pretend to be one so your vote means more?

So do you believe that the casual's vote on issues like ward carry more weight to ZOS or the people on this forum?

I mean I think casuals make up a majority in the game and are more valuable to ZOS but if that's the case that would certainly be a large vote for ZOS leaving Ward as is since casuals seem to enjoy or at least not care about it.

I'm saying some people say they're casuals to help their argument for Ward.

Casual players don't care about game balance. They hop on to play the game and relax, and definitely don't care if they die due to X ability or whatever. For example, whenever my PvE friends need to do PvP, they ask me to give them a good build for their class. They don't really complain about X ability being too strong or X heal being too weak. They simply play the game in a relaxing way.

Those are true casual PvPers. The fake casuals I'm talking about are the ones that say something like "Ward is helping the class without making it OP", or "This class can now compete", while blatantly ignoring the balance issues that come with those buffs. They don't actually care about balance, they just want what makes them better, and they definitely aren't casuals either if they care enough to comment about class balance.

StaticWave · June 20

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

So yes, magsorc combo is predictable but good players can and will abuse it to make it super difficult for you to catch them and block their attacks. If you don’t believe me, just play as a melee character against a decent magsorc.

Brings up another thing Sorcs do better than NBs: pressure. Most NBs do very little damage outside their (telegraphed) burst attempts, as they generally lack dots and need to be in close for their strong direct hits, so it's usually pretty easy to keep your resource pools and hp up against them and avoid being hit often.

MagSorcs though, they will constant be smacking you from max range, meaning you constantly have to spend resources to counter that damage, as well as the resources you spend chasing them as they Streak around. This gives a skilled MagSorc player yet another path to winning, attrition grinding their opponent out of resources.

Their ranged 1v1 pressure also makes them very good target focus DDs for 3-4 person smallscale groups, with back bar Negate adding incredible group utility to an otherwise selfish spec. Thinking outside MagSorc for a sec, Sorc also probably makes the best Azureblight bomber, one of the few things that can threaten a ball group.

Exactly, some people keep saying magsorc's burst combo is predictable but can you name me 1 magsorc that's playing the game in a pure burst build?

The last time I've seen a magsorc actually playing in a burst build was SypherPK on his DW magsorc. He didn't have a true spammable. His main burst combo was Curse + Frag + Inevitable Detonation, and he would spam Endless Fury to proc Frag and time all of them to 1 shot someone.

The majority, if not all magsorcs are currently running a true spammable with Cfrag + Curse. Cfrag being a mini Merciless Resolve that can proc back to back and critting for 10k on a well-built player, and Curse going off every 3.5s and 8.5s while being unblockable and undodgable. Let's be real, every single sorc in this meta is not in a pure burst build, but rather a semi pressure build. That predictable burst argument is invalid and outdated.

Every single magsorc I've fought in U41 and U42 are doing at least 3.5k DPS. The top end ones are doing 4.5k+ and putting me on my back bar constantly over the course of a long duel. An actual burst build would have MUCH less DPS.

StaticWave · June 20

Here's a sample duel vs a decent streamer on PC NA. He was on NB and I was on magsorc. My build was Rallying Cry/Wretched/Chudan. Idk what he was in but I assume some stat build.

https://youtu.be/zHZ60PUJcKE

Several things I could conlude from this video:

1) Sorc can put out pressure by simply playing the game. My opponent was a strong player who plays multiple classes and even has a Sorc of his own, so there's no way anybody can say I'm fighting bad players.

2) Sorc is very good at kiting melee players and forcing them to drop block

3) It's almost futile to burst a magSorc down if he has good shield up time. Even if you catch him with his shield down, a simple Ward cast will bring him out of execute range, as demonstrated twice in the video when I got out of execute range after eating an Incap + Bow combo

4) The only chance he has to win is catching me off-guard. He had his chance twice and couldn't secure the kill because Ward is broken

At no point in that video was I under any pressure, or felt any threat other than those 2 short moments when I ate his burst combo. Sorc is 100% better than NB this patch and that's a fact.

Zabagad · June 20

StaticWave wrote: »

Cfrag being a mini Merciless Resolve that can proc back to back

That would be nice...if true

Bushido2513 · June 20

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

it became clear which direction...

...which direction you were headed in. Just you. Other players still compete, and the devs still try to balance.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

In a game where you do not have to aim

But unlike range, melee attacks do need to be aimed, and have to deal with idiotic cast delays on top of aiming. MagSorc is the game's archetypal caster mage spec yet doesn't actually have to cast (or aim) anything unless you go full potato on your frags. The 2h melee warrior line has more cast time skills (3) than any magical caster line in the game.

Please tell me how other players in this game still compete in anything other than their feeling they are at this or that level?

This game has no accurate way for a player to gauge skill in PVP.

Devs of course do balance the game but if they keep balancing away from skill based gameplay as they have been then what does that really say for any given skill level people think they seem to achieve?

Bushido2513 · June 20

StaticWave wrote: »

Those are true casual PvPers. The fake casuals I'm talking about are the ones that say something like "Ward is helping the class without making it OP", or "This class can now compete", while blatantly ignoring the balance issues that come with those buffs. They don't actually care about balance, they just want what makes them better, and they definitely aren't casuals either if they care enough to comment about class balance.

Ok that actually does make sense. It assumes a lot about the motivations of a poster but I can at least understand your logic.

I could even see where your view might find me to be a fake casual when I would more so say I'm a veteran player that now plays the game casually who has friends that are casuals whose view points I've come to understand over the years as I myself became more casual.

There's a line between not caring about balance and just actually being ok with something.

I do care about balance but I look at balance from what I believe ZOS is going for and for me personally ward isn't an issue if I'm playing as a sorc or any other class. I've said before I'm fine with or without the change but I also don't have any hate for those that might really enjoy it right now being that's not causing me much issues. If it was I'd feel different but I think if you enjoy your class, have reasonable skill, and a good build, a sorc won't be too much of an issue right now.

xylena_lazarow · June 20

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm saying some people say they're casuals to help their argument for Ward.

There's a lot of ambiguity to what "casual" means. There's general effort level, which I usually hear as casual vs hardcore, and there's how much someone wants to win, usually heard as casual vs competitive. Perspective matters, Bushido may feel casual now compared to his old self, but it sounds like he's still a lot more hardcore and competitive than the casual-casual with 27k max mag who does literally nothing but hard cast frags (on the one day a week he plays the game).

That said, I do agree that many of the posts here have this vibe of a mid+ player claiming "casual" in trying to justify their overpowered defensive button. These players never needed the help. The casuals who actually need help are the 27k max mag hard cast frag spammers, the guys blaming their deaths on spies and hackers, etc.

DrNukenstein · June 20

Casual means any player that doesn't find room for rallying cry, heavy trainee shirt, and preferred mythic lol.