Magicka Sorcerer PvP Domination!

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But to your point, yes in a 1v1 sorc has reached the status of other classes

Not reached. Exceeded. By a lot. With only one skill where every other brawler needs multiple bar slots.

Static showed this with hard numbers but the significance of those numbers is still sadly lost on this forum.

@xylena_lazarow

I mean not really with one skill. To get hardened ward to that value is adding inner light and bound aegis. So one ACTIVE skill, two passive skills.

@StaticWave

With the above noted, I watched your clip for the duel. I saw two top tier Sorcs dueling. This goes both ways, if he's doing 4.5k dps to you how's it "balanced" that you're able to easily heal through that and output 6.3k dps? Are you saying that you are a significantly better player than him and that your setup should be able to be that offensive while tanking 4.5k DPS? He has two abilities on his bar that buff that one main defense. And he also has crit surge and a minimal amount of blood magic. If he didn't have those "passives" slotted he wouldn't be able to handle that damage.

So from your 3 HoTs and a burst heal let's compare.

Vibrant = Hardened (For 1v1s these honestly might be comparable, burst heal, 6% more healing, and major maim)
Surge = Surge
Vigor = Bound aegis / blood magic
Blood Magic = Inner light (both passive)

So what's so crazy here? That you're casting vigor and he isn't?

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

With the above noted, I watched your clip for the duel. I saw two top tier Sorcs dueling. This goes both ways, if he's doing 4.5k dps to you how's it "balanced" that you're able to easily heal through that and output 6.3k dps? Are you saying that you are a significantly better player than him and that your setup should be able to be that offensive while tanking 4.5k DPS? He has two abilities on his bar that buff that one main defense. If he didn't have those "passives" slotted he wouldn't be able to handle that damage.

1) I was block casting a bunch of his abilities, which reduces his DPS
2) I had Vigor, 4-5 DoTs with Cutting Defense CP to maximize Crit Surge procs, constant Blood Magic healing from Cwep weave, Blood Craze heal, and the occasional Encase spam when low HP

So you're telling me that him with 6.2k HPS:



With no Vigor, only 138 surge procs out of a 6 minute 22s duel, which is a 36% proc chance, and Ward spamming with the burst heal underneath, which accounts for 78.4% of his healing against a 6.2k DPS build, is fair?

I had to block cast for the entire duel, stacked 3 HoTs, and weaved Crystal Weapon almost every other second just to survive his 4.5k DPS. ONLY 4.5k DPS, btw. I can't survive 6k DPS without a shield.

Do you understand the problem here? I hope you do.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

@xylena_lazarow There is no point arguing with them. Bushido always talks about data when arguing but when I showed multiple clips and CMX screenshot he says “this needs more time to bake”.

Several people who barely played discussed with me how they could play their Sorc in U41, like @IncultaWolf and @gariondavey. They are currently facetanking in BGs and IC in a full damage build with very little deaths. The buffs Sorc got elevated it from a shelf class to a top tier class, to the point that someone who doesn’t play it can just hop on and perform super well relative to other classes.

You can’t argue with them, not even with evidence. It’s clear they WANT this buff to stay. So be it.

I'm not saying that you're not seeing what you're seeing. I'm saying that I'd like to give the community some time to process this change before I'm willing to say how bad it is for the entire game. I've already said nobody disagrees with you about what this is in a vacuum of the 1v1. I've only ever said it's not that big of a deal in the context of the state of the entire game and the player base. Letting it bake is about seeing how players respond to this over time. I'm not advocating what the game currently is, just viewing the changes in the context of what ZOS clearly intends the game to be. I'm glad people are giving feedback on this, for me it's just no more broken then what I've already been dealing with for a long time now.

StaticWave

Or better yet, why don't you run the same build I'm running and duel another top tier magsorc? Turn the tables around, feel what other people have to go through?

Run this build right now and tell me the result:

Essence Thief, Rallying Cry, Master DW, Sea Serpent Coil.

Please go fight the magsorcs you're defending with it. I would love to see the result.

TechMaybeHic

They're all over the place in Cyrodiil. Some good, some bad, but all are a pain. With a shield and instant heal at the same time, it's just quite a bit more effective health in a single global than anything else. If it was the shield and a HOT after, it would be closer to wardens burst heal and hot. With being shield and instant heal at the same time, it makes it super spammable and exceeds about every single GCD damage save for merciless resolve

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Or better yet, why don't you run the same build I'm running and duel another top tier magsorc? Turn the tables around, feel what other people have to go through?

Run this build right now and tell me the result:

Essence Thief, Rallying Cry, Master DW, Sea Serpent Coil.

Please go fight the magsorcs you're defending with it. I would love to see the result.

Stalemates happen all the time with various classes. Generally rule of thumb is to wait until you get backup and focus them down or be prepared to bolt if their backup shows first.

If you and your buddies chase a sorc down and they get away then either let it got or next time just bring more buddies.

You're speaking and showing examples around 1v1 but that's not what zos balances around and I can understand to some degree because it's easier to just balance overall for group fights where imbalances are somewhat harder to notice due to the abundance of healing and general level of mahem.

Honestly neither version of the shield makes much difference to me because I was already hard to kill and had good damage. My main point here is that this just isn't that broken in the context of what other classes have and because the game is catering to group v group content

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@xylena_lazarow There is no point arguing with them. Bushido always talks about data when arguing but when I showed multiple clips and CMX screenshot he says “this needs more time to bake”.

Several people who barely played discussed with me how they could play their Sorc in U41, like @IncultaWolf and @gariondavey. They are currently facetanking in BGs and IC in a full damage build with very little deaths. The buffs Sorc got elevated it from a shelf class to a top tier class, to the point that someone who doesn’t play it can just hop on and perform super well relative to other classes.

You can’t argue with them, not even with evidence. It’s clear they WANT this buff to stay. So be it.

I'm not saying that you're not seeing what you're seeing. I'm saying that I'd like to give the community some time to process this change before I'm willing to say how bad it is for the entire game. I've already said nobody disagrees with you about what this is in a vacuum of the 1v1. I've only ever said it's not that big of a deal in the context of the state of the entire game and the player base. Letting it bake is about seeing how players respond to this over time. I'm not advocating what the game currently is, just viewing the changes in the context of what ZOS clearly intends the game to be. I'm glad people are giving feedback on this, for me it's just no more broken then what I've already been dealing with for a long time now.

There are people telling you Sorc is OP when they took it to BG, which is not a 1v1 scenario, and you still think I'm talking about 1v1s.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Or better yet, why don't you run the same build I'm running and duel another top tier magsorc? Turn the tables around, feel what other people have to go through?

Run this build right now and tell me the result:

Essence Thief, Rallying Cry, Master DW, Sea Serpent Coil.

Please go fight the magsorcs you're defending with it. I would love to see the result.

Stalemates happen all the time with various classes. Generally rule of thumb is to wait until you get backup and focus them down or be prepared to bolt if their backup shows first.

If you and your buddies chase a sorc down and they get away then either let it got or next time just bring more buddies.

You're speaking and showing examples around 1v1 but that's not what zos balances around and I can understand to some degree because it's easier to just balance overall for group fights where imbalances are somewhat harder to notice due to the abundance of healing and general level of mahem.

Honestly neither version of the shield makes much difference to me because I was already hard to kill and had good damage. My main point here is that this just isn't that broken in the context of what other classes have and because the game is catering to group v group content

What does ZOS balance around then?

HowlKimchi

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:



There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

You do realize that it was a 5 minute fight? 4k dps in a 5 min duel, and a build made for damage was able to sustain receiving that kind of dps without vigor. Do you understand how ridiculous that is?

The fact that sorcs can now facetank that kind of damage on a damage build, while still having the mobility to pick and choose fights makes them factually overpowered and the 1vX class this patch.

StaticWave

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:



There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

You do realize that it was a 5 minute fight? 4k dps in a 5 min duel, and a build made for damage was able to sustain receiving that kind of dps without vigor. Do you understand how ridiculous that is?

He doesnt lol. I doubt he even checks CMX. I'll challenge anyone in this thread right now to make a FULL DAMAGE build on a non-sorc and arcanist class and can sustain 6.2k DPS without Vigor. I'll give anyone who completes this challenge 1 million gold on PC NA.

katorga

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Or better yet, why don't you run the same build I'm running and duel another top tier magsorc? Turn the tables around, feel what other people have to go through?

Run this build right now and tell me the result:

Essence Thief, Rallying Cry, Master DW, Sea Serpent Coil.

Please go fight the magsorcs you're defending with it. I would love to see the result.

Stalemates happen all the time with various classes. Generally rule of thumb is to wait until you get backup and focus them down or be prepared to bolt if their backup shows first.

If you and your buddies chase a sorc down and they get away then either let it got or next time just bring more buddies.

You're speaking and showing examples around 1v1 but that's not what zos balances around and I can understand to some degree because it's easier to just balance overall for group fights where imbalances are somewhat harder to notice due to the abundance of healing and general level of mahem.

Honestly neither version of the shield makes much difference to me because I was already hard to kill and had good damage. My main point here is that this just isn't that broken in the context of what other classes have and because the game is catering to group v group content

What does ZOS balance around then?

Not duels that's for sure, definitely a spreadsheet.

ZOS just functionally matches capabilities with generally similar tool tips. NB being the outlier on the top end, and Necro being the outlier on the bottom end.

They practically cut and pasted skills from arcanist and resto staff for Sorc this time around.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@xylena_lazarow There is no point arguing with them. Bushido always talks about data when arguing but when I showed multiple clips and CMX screenshot he says “this needs more time to bake”.

Several people who barely played discussed with me how they could play their Sorc in U41, like @IncultaWolf and @gariondavey. They are currently facetanking in BGs and IC in a full damage build with very little deaths. The buffs Sorc got elevated it from a shelf class to a top tier class, to the point that someone who doesn’t play it can just hop on and perform super well relative to other classes.

You can’t argue with them, not even with evidence. It’s clear they WANT this buff to stay. So be it.

I'm not saying that you're not seeing what you're seeing. I'm saying that I'd like to give the community some time to process this change before I'm willing to say how bad it is for the entire game. I've already said nobody disagrees with you about what this is in a vacuum of the 1v1. I've only ever said it's not that big of a deal in the context of the state of the entire game and the player base. Letting it bake is about seeing how players respond to this over time. I'm not advocating what the game currently is, just viewing the changes in the context of what ZOS clearly intends the game to be. I'm glad people are giving feedback on this, for me it's just no more broken then what I've already been dealing with for a long time now.

There are people telling you Sorc is OP when they took it to BG, which is not a 1v1 scenario, and you still think I'm talking about 1v1s.

So BGs are very subjective due to the match type, mmr, and group composition. Right now there are a lot of people playing sorc. I can remember when DK got a buff, guess what, all I saw was DKs in bgs doing buffed dk things, same with warden, same with Arcanist. In each of those cases things have now leveled off which allows for a better overall perspective.

Because of how bgs are so mixed someone would actually have to play several several matches to get a good perspective and even then some of this will come down to how players adapt to sorc and how many people continue to play sorc after some get bored being that dk, arcanist, and nb are still VERY viable options.

So I'm not completely discounting anything anyone is saying, I just realize that the perspective of time is not yet in play because that takes well, time

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Or better yet, why don't you run the same build I'm running and duel another top tier magsorc? Turn the tables around, feel what other people have to go through?

Run this build right now and tell me the result:

Essence Thief, Rallying Cry, Master DW, Sea Serpent Coil.

Please go fight the magsorcs you're defending with it. I would love to see the result.

Stalemates happen all the time with various classes. Generally rule of thumb is to wait until you get backup and focus them down or be prepared to bolt if their backup shows first.

If you and your buddies chase a sorc down and they get away then either let it got or next time just bring more buddies.

You're speaking and showing examples around 1v1 but that's not what zos balances around and I can understand to some degree because it's easier to just balance overall for group fights where imbalances are somewhat harder to notice due to the abundance of healing and general level of mahem.

Honestly neither version of the shield makes much difference to me because I was already hard to kill and had good damage. My main point here is that this just isn't that broken in the context of what other classes have and because the game is catering to group v group content

What does ZOS balance around then?

As another pointed out and from what I can tell, generalized tooltips and rules. Ok so go back and read patch notes. They tell you that they are trying to bring things into within range of each other in general and follow a ruleset. That has nothing to do with if one class totally stomps another.

They basically want everything to kind of work around the same parameters but what they don't seem to care about is if a particular class exceeds in a given area as long as that area makes players want to get on that class, excluding necro which has somehow earned a timeout from the game.

More importantly sales is a driving motivator and 1v1 isn't what sells, big group battles is the selling point of cyro. You're not going to see an advertisement that really says hey come play our game and fight one person. It's more come play our game and be a part of an epic war.

And again as I pointed out, it's wayyyyyy easier to balance for big group fights then it is to say hey let's make sure each class has about the same chance to fight each other 1v1 even though they have such different skills and sub interactions between those skills, sets, etc.

It's just easy to see the pattern when you look at the direction the game keeps heading in spite of any feedback to the contrary

Bushido2513

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:



There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

You do realize that it was a 5 minute fight? 4k dps in a 5 min duel, and a build made for damage was able to sustain receiving that kind of dps without vigor. Do you understand how ridiculous that is?

The fact that sorcs can now facetank that kind of damage on a damage build, while still having the mobility to pick and choose fights makes them factually overpowered and the 1vX class this patch.

So I've come across this kind of view before and it appears you're looking at the how and not the outcome. Yes there is something to be said for the how because sometimes when something is op you start to realize that it allows for too much freedom.

I can see both sides of this but for me I mostly focus on the outcome and the overall. What you're describing is a very tanky player character that can dish out damage with high mobility. What I will say is that one could liken this to nb in that it has high damage but we're just switching out mobility to a minor degree (nb has built in speed buffs and shade).

I've fought all kinds of player characters regardless of class that have damage, speed, high defense. I remember not too long ago fighting a procanist that could keep up with me (my sorc is built with some speed) and deal damage to me in a way which made me have to keep moving away (I'm fairly tanky) and who wasn't taking much damage from me.

There's lots of things that go into this but my point is that to me if that same player jumps on a sorc they would be doing something similar. Sure they have mobility but generally speaking I don't have a problem catching people and I also don't have a problem if they run from me and I choose to withdraw.

What I'm saying is that so far that I've seen, nobody has described a situation that can't in a similar way already happen in the game.


People are viewing it like sorc is some new player when it's going to be the same player base just on a sorc but if it wasn't a sorc it would be a nb, arcanist, dk, warden, all of which can be played in op ways depending on build and the player.

So for me I really don't care which op class or build someone hops on, I'll just deal with it in one way or another. Can't beat everyone, can't catch everyone, can't kill everyone. It's just a game, have fun and move on.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:



There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

You do realize that it was a 5 minute fight? 4k dps in a 5 min duel, and a build made for damage was able to sustain receiving that kind of dps without vigor. Do you understand how ridiculous that is?

He doesnt lol. I doubt he even checks CMX. I'll challenge anyone in this thread right now to make a FULL DAMAGE build on a non-sorc and arcanist class and can sustain 6.2k DPS without Vigor. I'll give anyone who completes this challenge 1 million gold on PC NA.

I mean that's pretty easy, I get to have a dedicated healer right? Jokes aside my point is that again if you're speaking of a 1v1 scenario the game isn't balanced around this so yes again you're likely correct but it would be the same as me coming in and asking why the game doesn't have more tools and adjustments or rules in battlespirit that make players stronger when they are solo so that 1vx is more possible? The reason why that's not a question is because we all know zos doesn't care about 1vx support either.

So there you have it, for me this change is better because I roll solo 90 percent of the time. This shield change would therefore be considered fair because I'm basically always outnumbered. Personally I don't really care because I've been solo all this time and doing just fine but my point is that I didn't cry about it when anyone else got buffs all around me so why is it a big deal if I get to hold the buff stick for a minute in this wildly imbalanced game?

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

I mean not really with one skill. To get hardened ward to that value is adding inner light and bound aegis. So one ACTIVE skill, two passive skills.

GCDs matter. A lot. But it would probably take pages worth of essays to explain why, and I'm not paid enough for this.

I have an AD Sorc waiting for me next campaign.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So BGs are very subjective due to the match type, mmr, and group composition

BG is literally a GvGvG..

You said 1v1 doesn't matter and you wanted more data on GvG, but BG is literally a GvGvG. Cmon man, what are you going to say next? That you need to see Sorc overperforming in zergs to have accurate data too?

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So there you have it, for me this change is better because I roll solo 90 percent of the time. This shield change would therefore be considered fair because I'm basically always outnumbered. Personally I don't really care because I've been solo all this time and doing just fine but my point is that I didn't cry about it when anyone else got buffs all around me so why is it a big deal if I get to hold the buff stick for a minute in this wildly imbalanced game?

Okay so you admit you want the change to stay because you want to 1vX better. Maybe don't bring "GvG" into the argument to mask your intention then. It's disingenuous. You didn't actually care if it's overperforming in GvG. You're just using it because it's convenient for your argument (because it's harder to set up a dedicated test with willingly participating groups for data). I literally have multiple players who do BGs, which is a form of GvG, on PC tell me Sorc is strong as heck. You haven't even gotten the patch yet, so you're arguing because you want to experience it before it gets nerfed, which it won't be for another 3 months. I will cease further discussion with you from now on. Have a good day.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So BGs are very subjective due to the match type, mmr, and group composition

BG is literally a GvGvG..

You said 1v1 doesn't matter and you wanted more data on GvG, but BG is literally a GvGvG. Cmon man, what are you going to say next? That you need to see Sorc overperforming in zergs to have accurate data too?

You're very correct! I did over simplify it a bit.

So yes I more speak of cyro when I say g v g. Battlegrounds isn't really the best example because you're not seeing what I would argue is the most intended pvp scenario.

Everyone has their favorite form of PVP. For me it's between IC and bgs. I go to bgs to basically get instant action and test builds.

So here's an example, in a bg you don't have siege, large scale coordinated tactics, CP, etc.

So yes it's gvg but not what I would consider to be where the majority of player population resides which is also where I'd argue you'll get your best data.

To put it another way I think to get a full understanding you need to have a test environment where you can gather the most data and that's going to be cyro. After that I'd rank IC, then bgs as your next data sources but in no particular order since both can have much more variation in what a particular player sees.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So there you have it, for me this change is better because I roll solo 90 percent of the time. This shield change would therefore be considered fair because I'm basically always outnumbered. Personally I don't really care because I've been solo all this time and doing just fine but my point is that I didn't cry about it when anyone else got buffs all around me so why is it a big deal if I get to hold the buff stick for a minute in this wildly imbalanced game?

Okay so you admit you want the change to stay because you want to 1vX better. Maybe don't bring "GvG" into the argument to mask your intention then. It's disingenuous. You didn't actually care if it's overperforming in GvG. You're just using it because it's convenient for your argument (because it's harder to set up a dedicated test with willingly participating groups for data). I literally have multiple players who do BGs, which is a form of GvG, on PC tell me Sorc is strong as heck. You haven't even gotten the patch yet, so you're arguing because you want to experience it before it gets nerfed, which it won't be for another 3 months. I will cease further discussion with you from now on. Have a good day.

I said a few things, that's just the one you picked to latch onto. I also said I didn't care either way because I was doing fine before the change. If ZOS wants to throw me a bone I'll take it but my build didn't need it to enjoy the game.

I'm honestly not even interested in using the build you're posting even if it is the most optimal. So no this change is whatever for me. I'm just commenting that it's silly to as some have said get tunnel vision on this change for sorc but hey have your opinion.

Kartalin

I’m absolute garbage at magsorc other than ball group healing (lol) but I threw on a basic build yesterday (wretched, Alfiq, ddf, and chudan) and I could tell immediately that hardened ward was a hard carry. It’s like arcanist and impervious runeward but without the ramping up of crux and better offense.

katorga

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I mean not really with one skill. To get hardened ward to that value is adding inner light and bound aegis. So one ACTIVE skill, two passive skills.

GCDs matter. A lot. But it would probably take pages worth of essays to explain why, and I'm not paid enough for this.

I have an AD Sorc waiting for me next campaign.

This. Is why NB is sooo good imo. Hugely GCD efficient. No wasted time buffing. No wasted skill slots on inner light or bound aegis because the good buffs are on your main skills. Dark Deal/Crit surge merged into a single skill, actively healing you and reducing ability costs just by having it on the back bar.

The only missing item is an out of combat source of Major Sorcery, but I expect ZOS will give that the passive, active on either bar treatment shortly.

TechMaybeHic

curiously: i see mighty chudan still in use. Anythoughts on bar space cleanup for hurricane?

Kartalin

katorga wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I mean not really with one skill. To get hardened ward to that value is adding inner light and bound aegis. So one ACTIVE skill, two passive skills.

GCDs matter. A lot. But it would probably take pages worth of essays to explain why, and I'm not paid enough for this.

I have an AD Sorc waiting for me next campaign.

This. Is why NB is sooo good imo.

And why necros are so bad

Turtle_Bot

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

curiously: i see mighty chudan still in use. Anythoughts on bar space cleanup for hurricane?

Best way to achieve that without buffing sorc further and also nerfing some of the peak potential of max mag stacking is to switch the max stats from bound armor and morphs into major prophecy/savagery while slotted on either bar.

15% less max mag (8% from BA, 5% from inner light 2% from mages guild passive) and it frees up the bar slot inner light was taking up to slot whichever lightning form morph is preferred.

It also reduces the overall tankiness of magsorc that goes full dps since most would want armaments at that point instead of aegis and would lose those passive minor resolve/protection effects that aegis has.

HowlKimchi

Bushido2513 wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:



There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

You do realize that it was a 5 minute fight? 4k dps in a 5 min duel, and a build made for damage was able to sustain receiving that kind of dps without vigor. Do you understand how ridiculous that is?

The fact that sorcs can now facetank that kind of damage on a damage build, while still having the mobility to pick and choose fights makes them factually overpowered and the 1vX class this patch.

So I've come across this kind of view before and it appears you're looking at the how and not the outcome. Yes there is something to be said for the how because sometimes when something is op you start to realize that it allows for too much freedom.

I can see both sides of this but for me I mostly focus on the outcome and the overall. What you're describing is a very tanky player character that can dish out damage with high mobility. What I will say is that one could liken this to nb in that it has high damage but we're just switching out mobility to a minor degree (nb has built in speed buffs and shade).

I've fought all kinds of player characters regardless of class that have damage, speed, high defense. I remember not too long ago fighting a procanist that could keep up with me (my sorc is built with some speed) and deal damage to me in a way which made me have to keep moving away (I'm fairly tanky) and who wasn't taking much damage from me.

There's lots of things that go into this but my point is that to me if that same player jumps on a sorc they would be doing something similar. Sure they have mobility but generally speaking I don't have a problem catching people and I also don't have a problem if they run from me and I choose to withdraw.

What I'm saying is that so far that I've seen, nobody has described a situation that can't in a similar way already happen in the game.


People are viewing it like sorc is some new player when it's going to be the same player base just on a sorc but if it wasn't a sorc it would be a nb, arcanist, dk, warden, all of which can be played in op ways depending on build and the player.

So for me I really don't care which op class or build someone hops on, I'll just deal with it in one way or another. Can't beat everyone, can't catch everyone, can't kill everyone. It's just a game, have fun and move on.

That's a long way of saying you don't care about balance.

I have a lot I want to say but I dont wanna write an essay so ill just bullet some points.

• The main thing is player skill is something that shouldn't be a factor when balancing. A skilled player using a magcro will *** on a crappy player using a nightblade, but we all know necros are waaaay underpowered right now.
• The meta proc arcanist build you use in your example is actually a poor example because it was the OP build last patch and was nerfed (still needs some nerfs imo)
• people have been describing situations that have never been possible in the game before, and that's tanking 7k dps without vigor on a full damage build, i dont know why you keep downplaying that.

Highlighting this:

People are viewing it like sorc is some new player when it's going to be the same player base just on a sorc but if it wasn't a sorc it would be a nb, arcanist, dk, warden, all of which can be played in op ways depending on build and the player.

I kinda dont see the point of talking about class balance with you if that's how you view things. You are correct that people will always play the meta fotm builds, and yeah those buillds will surely be effective, but I dont want the fotm build to be leaps and bounds ahead of the other builds which the max mag hardened ward sorc currently is right now. OP as a term has been mad overused these days. It means overpowered which is different from effective/strong. overpowered means it is too strong.

Bushido2513

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:



There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

You do realize that it was a 5 minute fight? 4k dps in a 5 min duel, and a build made for damage was able to sustain receiving that kind of dps without vigor. Do you understand how ridiculous that is?

The fact that sorcs can now facetank that kind of damage on a damage build, while still having the mobility to pick and choose fights makes them factually overpowered and the 1vX class this patch.

So I've come across this kind of view before and it appears you're looking at the how and not the outcome. Yes there is something to be said for the how because sometimes when something is op you start to realize that it allows for too much freedom.

I can see both sides of this but for me I mostly focus on the outcome and the overall. What you're describing is a very tanky player character that can dish out damage with high mobility. What I will say is that one could liken this to nb in that it has high damage but we're just switching out mobility to a minor degree (nb has built in speed buffs and shade).

I've fought all kinds of player characters regardless of class that have damage, speed, high defense. I remember not too long ago fighting a procanist that could keep up with me (my sorc is built with some speed) and deal damage to me in a way which made me have to keep moving away (I'm fairly tanky) and who wasn't taking much damage from me.

There's lots of things that go into this but my point is that to me if that same player jumps on a sorc they would be doing something similar. Sure they have mobility but generally speaking I don't have a problem catching people and I also don't have a problem if they run from me and I choose to withdraw.

What I'm saying is that so far that I've seen, nobody has described a situation that can't in a similar way already happen in the game.


People are viewing it like sorc is some new player when it's going to be the same player base just on a sorc but if it wasn't a sorc it would be a nb, arcanist, dk, warden, all of which can be played in op ways depending on build and the player.

So for me I really don't care which op class or build someone hops on, I'll just deal with it in one way or another. Can't beat everyone, can't catch everyone, can't kill everyone. It's just a game, have fun and move on.

That's a long way of saying you don't care about balance.

I have a lot I want to say but I dont wanna write an essay so ill just bullet some points.

• The main thing is player skill is something that shouldn't be a factor when balancing. A skilled player using a magcro will *** on a crappy player using a nightblade, but we all know necros are waaaay underpowered right now.
• The meta proc arcanist build you use in your example is actually a poor example because it was the OP build last patch and was nerfed (still needs some nerfs imo)
• people have been describing situations that have never been possible in the game before, and that's tanking 7k dps without vigor on a full damage build, i dont know why you keep downplaying that.

Highlighting this:

People are viewing it like sorc is some new player when it's going to be the same player base just on a sorc but if it wasn't a sorc it would be a nb, arcanist, dk, warden, all of which can be played in op ways depending on build and the player.

I kinda dont see the point of talking about class balance with you if that's how you view things. You are correct that people will always play the meta fotm builds, and yeah those buillds will surely be effective, but I dont want the fotm build to be leaps and bounds ahead of the other builds which the max mag hardened ward sorc currently is right now. OP as a term has been mad overused these days. It means overpowered which is different from effective/strong. overpowered means it is too strong.

It's not that I don't care about balance. It's that ZOS doesn't care about balance. So if they aren't worried about it then yes I'll give my opinion but it's going to come from the view that I just tend to understand who I'm dealing with.

In that context I don't see the sky as falling and I find it interesting that anyone thinks this is interesting as if it's an unusual pattern for the game is all.

Also yes I don't really care much about tanking DPS with vigor or without vigor because the game simply is not balanced around a 1v1. Why use a metric that ZOS clearly doesn't care about?

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:



There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

You do realize that it was a 5 minute fight? 4k dps in a 5 min duel, and a build made for damage was able to sustain receiving that kind of dps without vigor. Do you understand how ridiculous that is?

The fact that sorcs can now facetank that kind of damage on a damage build, while still having the mobility to pick and choose fights makes them factually overpowered and the 1vX class this patch.

So I've come across this kind of view before and it appears you're looking at the how and not the outcome. Yes there is something to be said for the how because sometimes when something is op you start to realize that it allows for too much freedom.

I can see both sides of this but for me I mostly focus on the outcome and the overall. What you're describing is a very tanky player character that can dish out damage with high mobility. What I will say is that one could liken this to nb in that it has high damage but we're just switching out mobility to a minor degree (nb has built in speed buffs and shade).

I've fought all kinds of player characters regardless of class that have damage, speed, high defense. I remember not too long ago fighting a procanist that could keep up with me (my sorc is built with some speed) and deal damage to me in a way which made me have to keep moving away (I'm fairly tanky) and who wasn't taking much damage from me.

There's lots of things that go into this but my point is that to me if that same player jumps on a sorc they would be doing something similar. Sure they have mobility but generally speaking I don't have a problem catching people and I also don't have a problem if they run from me and I choose to withdraw.

What I'm saying is that so far that I've seen, nobody has described a situation that can't in a similar way already happen in the game.


People are viewing it like sorc is some new player when it's going to be the same player base just on a sorc but if it wasn't a sorc it would be a nb, arcanist, dk, warden, all of which can be played in op ways depending on build and the player.

So for me I really don't care which op class or build someone hops on, I'll just deal with it in one way or another. Can't beat everyone, can't catch everyone, can't kill everyone. It's just a game, have fun and move on.

That's a long way of saying you don't care about balance.

I have a lot I want to say but I dont wanna write an essay so ill just bullet some points.

• The main thing is player skill is something that shouldn't be a factor when balancing. A skilled player using a magcro will *** on a crappy player using a nightblade, but we all know necros are waaaay underpowered right now.
• The meta proc arcanist build you use in your example is actually a poor example because it was the OP build last patch and was nerfed (still needs some nerfs imo)
• people have been describing situations that have never been possible in the game before, and that's tanking 7k dps without vigor on a full damage build, i dont know why you keep downplaying that.

Highlighting this:

People are viewing it like sorc is some new player when it's going to be the same player base just on a sorc but if it wasn't a sorc it would be a nb, arcanist, dk, warden, all of which can be played in op ways depending on build and the player.

I kinda dont see the point of talking about class balance with you if that's how you view things. You are correct that people will always play the meta fotm builds, and yeah those buillds will surely be effective, but I dont want the fotm build to be leaps and bounds ahead of the other builds which the max mag hardened ward sorc currently is right now. OP as a term has been mad overused these days. It means overpowered which is different from effective/strong. overpowered means it is too strong.

It's not that I don't care about balance. It's that ZOS doesn't care about balance. So if they aren't worried about it then yes I'll give my opinion but it's going to come from the view that I just tend to understand who I'm dealing with.

In that context I don't see the sky as falling and I find it interesting that anyone thinks this is interesting as if it's an unusual pattern for the game is all.

Also yes I don't really care much about tanking DPS with vigor or without vigor because the game simply is not balanced around a 1v1. Why use a metric that ZOS clearly doesn't care about?

There are literally people telling you it's broken even outside of a 1v1, where they face tanked multiple people. Face tanked, not streaked away. You seem to have ignored that and kept beating around the bush. At the end of the day, you're defending it because it suits your agenda, especially after you admitted to be a solo PvPer and wanted the change to stay to benefit your playstyle. You definitely don't care about balance lol

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

To put it another way I think to get a full understanding you need to have a test environment where you can gather the most data and that's going to be cyro. After that I'd rank IC, then bgs as your next data sources but in no particular order since both can have much more variation in what a particular player sees.

There have been many people on PC who came here to tell you it's broken even in Cyrodiil. What more "data" do you want lol

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

well, it's not that sorc is completely op. the class just joins the tankiness of some other classes. whether that's good or bad can be decided by others, the fact that there was a buff is perfectly ok.

Sorc is the tankiest spec right now, there’s no contest. It’s also the only spec that can almost negate a Jerall build.

Giving it 10% max mag was more than enough to elevate it to S tier. Giving it a burst heal under a shield elevated it to OP status. Here is a screenshot of a sorc tanking 4k DPS without Vigor:



There are also numerous complaints about Sorc tanking whole groups of people in Cyro too.

What’s absurd is people like me who tested the shield on PTS opposed the change, but so many sorc mains wanted it to go thru when they didn’t even participate in the PTS lol… What is the point then? You don’t need to see actual data to know this shield change would be broken. It defeats the whole concept of tradeoff and puts Sorc in the same boat as NB being stealthy and having amazing heals/tankiness 🤣🤣

tanking 4k dps doesn't seem particularly impressive to me, all the other classes can do that too, but maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly.

I should also mention that I play no procc, no cp. The game may be a little more balanced, although sorc has always benefited well from a pure stat build. but at least you can't take as much as in the cp campaign.

Tanking 4k DPS without Vigor, which was mandatory on Sorc, is not impressive? Ok…

do we have a maths problem here? 4 k dps is 20k damage in 5 seconds, that was perfectly possible before with a shield build and every other class with a burst heal can do that without any problems

You do realize that it was a 5 minute fight? 4k dps in a 5 min duel, and a build made for damage was able to sustain receiving that kind of dps without vigor. Do you understand how ridiculous that is?

The fact that sorcs can now facetank that kind of damage on a damage build, while still having the mobility to pick and choose fights makes them factually overpowered and the 1vX class this patch.

So I've come across this kind of view before and it appears you're looking at the how and not the outcome. Yes there is something to be said for the how because sometimes when something is op you start to realize that it allows for too much freedom.

I can see both sides of this but for me I mostly focus on the outcome and the overall. What you're describing is a very tanky player character that can dish out damage with high mobility. What I will say is that one could liken this to nb in that it has high damage but we're just switching out mobility to a minor degree (nb has built in speed buffs and shade).

I've fought all kinds of player characters regardless of class that have damage, speed, high defense. I remember not too long ago fighting a procanist that could keep up with me (my sorc is built with some speed) and deal damage to me in a way which made me have to keep moving away (I'm fairly tanky) and who wasn't taking much damage from me.

There's lots of things that go into this but my point is that to me if that same player jumps on a sorc they would be doing something similar. Sure they have mobility but generally speaking I don't have a problem catching people and I also don't have a problem if they run from me and I choose to withdraw.

What I'm saying is that so far that I've seen, nobody has described a situation that can't in a similar way already happen in the game.


People are viewing it like sorc is some new player when it's going to be the same player base just on a sorc but if it wasn't a sorc it would be a nb, arcanist, dk, warden, all of which can be played in op ways depending on build and the player.

So for me I really don't care which op class or build someone hops on, I'll just deal with it in one way or another. Can't beat everyone, can't catch everyone, can't kill everyone. It's just a game, have fun and move on.

That's a long way of saying you don't care about balance.

I have a lot I want to say but I dont wanna write an essay so ill just bullet some points.

• The main thing is player skill is something that shouldn't be a factor when balancing. A skilled player using a magcro will *** on a crappy player using a nightblade, but we all know necros are waaaay underpowered right now.
• The meta proc arcanist build you use in your example is actually a poor example because it was the OP build last patch and was nerfed (still needs some nerfs imo)
• people have been describing situations that have never been possible in the game before, and that's tanking 7k dps without vigor on a full damage build, i dont know why you keep downplaying that.

Highlighting this:

People are viewing it like sorc is some new player when it's going to be the same player base just on a sorc but if it wasn't a sorc it would be a nb, arcanist, dk, warden, all of which can be played in op ways depending on build and the player.

I kinda dont see the point of talking about class balance with you if that's how you view things. You are correct that people will always play the meta fotm builds, and yeah those buillds will surely be effective, but I dont want the fotm build to be leaps and bounds ahead of the other builds which the max mag hardened ward sorc currently is right now. OP as a term has been mad overused these days. It means overpowered which is different from effective/strong. overpowered means it is too strong.

It's not that I don't care about balance. It's that ZOS doesn't care about balance. So if they aren't worried about it then yes I'll give my opinion but it's going to come from the view that I just tend to understand who I'm dealing with.

In that context I don't see the sky as falling and I find it interesting that anyone thinks this is interesting as if it's an unusual pattern for the game is all.

Also yes I don't really care much about tanking DPS with vigor or without vigor because the game simply is not balanced around a 1v1. Why use a metric that ZOS clearly doesn't care about?

There are literally people telling you it's broken even outside of a 1v1, where they face tanked multiple people. Face tanked, not streaked away. You seem to have ignored that and kept beating around the bush. At the end of the day, you're defending it because it suits your agenda, especially after you admitted to be a solo PvPer and wanted the change to stay to benefit your playstyle. You definitely don't care about balance lol

Me taking advantage of the change and me wanting the change are very different things. As I keep saying, I'm going to play the cards I'm dealt and I have been this whole time even when I kept getting the garbage end of things.

But to your point I'm not really ignoring things so much as keeping an open mind and understanding that the people on the forum represent a small sample size of the player base.

We have yet to see any videos of people playing sorc in cyro, posted here I mean. I'm not saying people are lying just that sometimes we can be easily biased and remember things as they make sense to us

But I promise to come back and eat my words if in about 6 weeks people haven't moved on to not caring and just playing the game as usual.