Tormentor Set

Gray_howling_parrot · January 30

While this set may have "functioned against one of their core philosophies of tanking in ESO" (I.e ZOS not wanting an AOE taunt in the game), it actually opened up a very fun avenue of gameplay for tanks, specifically templar tanks, which have historically been underplayed & have under-performed for the last 10 years or so. This set was never used as "META" and was never used as a means to surpass or cheese mechanics. All this change did was remove a very functional & accessible way to tank for beginner & intermediate tanks.

This change is extremely out-of-touch in my opinion.

ZOS_Hadeostry · January 30

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's about the PTS.

Thank you for your understanding

Froil · January 30

I'm happy it's dead. It creates bad habits.

Gray_howling_parrot · January 30

Froil wrote: »

I'm happy it's dead. It creates bad habits.

In what way? It's never (virtually) used in super high end-game content. It just allows people to learn mechanics and get comfortable as a tank early on. Also feels good to use straight up coming from other MMOs.

Kinda silly. We need more tanks. Decreasing enthusiasm and accessibility for tanks is straight up a bad idea. Gotta start somewhere dude.

Pixiepumpkin · January 30

Cooperharley wrote: »

Froil wrote: »

I'm happy it's dead. It creates bad habits.

Kinda silly. We need more tanks. Decreasing enthusiasm and accessibility for tanks is straight up a bad idea. Gotta start somewhere dude.

Yep, sadly too many never look to see the big picture.

For example. Making parties 4 people for dungeons. If Zenimax wanted to be different, they should have mad 6 man parties. The issue being there are not enough tanks (and this is the case in every mmo and has been for 20+ years). So make the parties require 4 DPS which absorbs more DPS out of the queue pool making the game simply better.

And to your point, why make tanking less fun, like Zenimax has. I always hated the idea that tanks do not have aoe taunts. In fact, that mindset of making the whole group being able to off tank mobs is what allows in part for fake tank dungeon runs.

You don't have this issue in wow. Even normal mode dungeons can destroy DPS trying to tank. Zenimax really dropped the ball at a fundamental level regarding the design of this game.

BetweenMidgets · January 30

Agreed.

Seems like resources put in a really baffling direction, when so many other things in this game need attention.

fred4 · January 30

Cooperharley wrote: »

While this set may have "functioned against one of their core philosophies of tanking in ESO" (I.e ZOS not wanting an AOE taunt in the game), it actually opened up a very fun avenue of gameplay for tanks, specifically templar tanks, which have historically been underplayed & have under-performed for the last 10 years or so. This set was never used as "META" and was never used as a means to surpass or cheese mechanics. All this change did was remove a very functional & accessible way to tank for beginner & intermediate tanks.

This change is extremely out-of-touch in my opinion.

That's a hard agree from me. This change is both petty and mean. Like you say, the set isn't used by endgame players for two reasons:

When used with Stampede or Explosive Charge - it's main purpose IMO - it gets in the way where two trial tanks need to coordinate taunts.
Those tanks prefer group support sets rather than "selfish" sets anyway. The latter are generally derided by endgame players.

I've had a lot of fun carrying random groups through normal and medium difficulty content with Tormentor / Stampede, such as normal trials and non-hard-mode dungeons. I agree this is an out-of-touch decision by ZOS, removing a non-meta, fun playstyle for no good reason.

I guess it's possible that some very high-end players are using it. I've been thinking of trying it for solo tanking in a vet trial, where that is possible. However, many mechanics require the two tanks to keep targets apart, a situation where Tormentor is more of a hindrance than a help. I also find the meta very hard to shift. Many raid / progression group leads rely on handed-down knowledge and favor the easiest method to clear the content with newer players. This almost always involves using two tanks in vet DLC trials, which generally rules out the current form Tormentor. On the other hand, as a single taunt set, Tormentor will be dead and worthless, especially since pull skills now taunt regardless anyway. The extra resistances that carry to the other bar are nice, but IMO not enough to justify wearing it. Gap closers are too expensive to use as taunt over other options, when the taunt is only single target. There may be a few situations where you might want that, such as tank swapping in vDSR, but normal tanks are doing just fine there. No one I know wears Tormentor for that.

Kite42 · January 30

Maybe the spaghetti code and the proposed graphical taunt changes didn't get along? A dev looked in the available resources fund, found 3 dollars fifty, some string and a red-7 uno card, and just went 'scrap it'?

fred4 · January 30

Kite42 wrote: »

Maybe the spaghetti code and the proposed graphical taunt changes didn't get along? A dev looked in the available resources fund, found 3 dollars fifty, some string and a red-7 uno card, and just went 'scrap it'?

That actually seems plausible. More of an explanation than an excuse, if true. I personally have no idea what the taunt changes are about, or why they would be necessary, yet. If ZOS were worried about console, all they really needed was implement the Untaunted addon for console, as far as I'm concerned.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · January 30

Speaking as someone who usually doesn’t tank, I guess I need to find another relatively idiot-proof set for my Warden. 😕

Araneae6537 · January 30

This set was not meta and I’ve never heard anyone complain about it in PvP, so it’s not overpowered or best in any content, but an alternate that some people enjoy using. Why does this set need to be ruined?

Doesn’t the community benefit from having more tanks (actual tanks, don’t have to be meta tanks) queuing for dungeons? I enjoyed more off-meta Templar tank charging into a group of enemies for that initial pull. Don’t we want to give more options for tanking to make it more inviting and fun for more players? What did this set’s aoe taunt utility hurt?

Gray_howling_parrot · January 30

I've always tanked in other MMOs and when I came to ESO, that was one of the weirdest things/biggest turn-offs for me personally - a lack of an AOE taunt. I simply never understood it. I tank all end-game content in ESO. I understand the "philosophy" ESO has where you need to taunt the larger mobs and let your group burn down the smaller mobs. But doing zero damage as a tank and having to single target taunt ONLY doesn't feel good. Obviously completely subjective there, but this is often why I get burnt out tanking. A good DPS can carry a group through a dungeon. An incredible tank cannot. Damage is king in ESO. You are at the whims of your group as a tank and healer unfortunately.

Removing a set that improves functionality or "fun" for a tank and gives us a taste of "normal" tanking in most other MMOs is just mind-boggling.

Gray_howling_parrot · January 30

I also see things like this often in patch notes and it makes me wonder if people making these changes actually play their game? That makes an enormous difference.

I don't see anyone that plays ESO looking at the tormentor set and saying it feels bad, is not balanced, is META when it shouldn't be, or that it shouldn't function in that way. You are giving up a 5 piece bonus to have an AOE taunt - that's the whole point. This set is no longer going to be used ever. Straight up.

ceruulean · January 30

Doesn't matter, ZoS would rather cling to their 10 year old philosophy, that "single target taunting is more skillful," than get with the times. They want to make DPS more accessible, but make tanking harder. Loool.

AoE taunts are used to make dungeon farming easier. It helps casual players and low DPS groups have FUN. It's not gonna affect trials or difficult content, or 3 arcanist DD groups who just kill everything in 3 seconds. You can design mechanics where AoE taunt is a detriment, like Scalecaller Peak ogres, or Maw of Lorkhaj twins. Make AoE taunts trigger overtaunt so you're committed, and if you take too much damage and die, and the offtank can't peel for you, then oops.

The lack of AoE taunts teaches bad habits. As a DPS I follow the tank closely so they can do their job and pack mobs and clear the trash quickly. Then in a trial I get borked by cleave because I stood too close to the flank.

BejaProphet · January 30

I very begrudgingly agree with the developers on this one.

Tanking is 99% of what I do in this game. And of late I’ve spent more time on my templar tank than my dragon knight tank. I use tormentors for the aoe taunt. I loved it dearly. I say all this to highlight the extraordinary nature of my agreeing with the nerf, because this one hits me directly.

All you Templars who use this set know as well as I do: this set with explosive charge was reficulously over powered. The broader eso player base failing to notice how OP it was does not change that. Templars are wrongly written off as inrellivant when it comes to tanking. This is a huge mistake because they are incredible. They are written off because they don’t buff dps as much. As result this amazing combo flew under the radar. But all of you who are upset know that I’m, right. This combo enabled us to do things that are simply outside the scope of this game otherwise.

I hate the nerf. But they are right.

Soarora · January 30

BejaProphet wrote: »

I very begrudgingly agree with the developers on this one.

Tanking is 99% of what I do in this game. And of late I’ve spent more time on my templar tank than my dragon knight tank. I use tormentors for the aoe taunt. I loved it dearly. I say all this to highlight the extraordinary nature of my agreeing with the nerf, because this one hits me directly.

All you Templars who use this set know as well as I do: this set with explosive charge was reficulously over powered. The broader eso player base failing to notice how OP it was does not change that. Templars are wrongly written off as inrellivant when it comes to tanking. This is a huge mistake because they are incredible. They are written off because they don’t buff dps as much. As result this amazing combo flew under the radar. But all of you who are upset know that I’m, right. This combo enabled us to do things that are simply outside the scope of this game otherwise.

I hate the nerf. But they are right.

How is it overpowered? As far as I am aware, the only time it was used was to taunt dungeon trash on templar and taunt as ww. Dungeon trash doesn’t hit hard except for like 1-3 enemies that would usually get taunted, it doesn’t really matter if they’re hard taunted or not. That’s the point of running ahead of the group anyways, so you can stack enemies while they’re focused on you because the rest of the group isn’t there yet. Same concept would apply even without tormentor because of using a gap closer.

etchedpixels · January 30

Play as you'd like except if you want to tank as a werewolf.

Seems a silly change to me. It's not like the the set is a good idea for anything but fun runs. On easy content you get better buffs with other sets on and with hard content if you pull it all at once you end up a smoking spot on the floor before the healer can wave their resto staff.

etchedpixels · January 30

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Speaking as someone who usually doesn’t tank, I guess I need to find another relatively idiot-proof set for my Warden. 😕

For easy newb tanking I can recommend hatchlings shell, permafrost and bear ulti never using the swipe. Put CP into the damage shield bonuses, dodge rolling under damage shield (as you've always got one) and into the heal based on ultimate you currently have. Eat a sensible food choice and you can take a coffee break whilst standing in trash because your self heal is crazy even if they get through the damage shield. Monster helm to taste 8)

It doesn't work in PvP because the heals are nerfed there and also because there's eventually someone smart enough to have oblivion damage to deal with trolltanks.

It's also not good for serious stuff as you are not buffing anyone but it sure works well for PUG runs and even tanking dragons.

Wing · January 30

lol, this game has no tanks, like no end game dungeon community, no pugs.

and they make it worse?

you do realize that if you want people to do something or go somewhere you have to make it a place they WANT to go right?

if you have your reasons, or design, whatever:

but they have no right to be successful or profitable. and when your neither, and everyone is playing FF14 because it just works and is fun.

well you can be happy alone with your reasons and designs and dead game. . .there are plenty.

get competitive, make a game people want to play.

Necrotech_Master · January 30

this is another change i found a little baffling

this set was always a super niche set, as it only really worked with a few select abiltities (crit charge+morphs, templar explosive charge, NB lotus fan, WW pounce)

2 of those are specific to certain classes, 1 of them requires being in WW mode which limits other things lol

Gray_howling_parrot · January 30

BejaProphet wrote: »

I very begrudgingly agree with the developers on this one.

Tanking is 99% of what I do in this game. And of late I’ve spent more time on my templar tank than my dragon knight tank. I use tormentors for the aoe taunt. I loved it dearly. I say all this to highlight the extraordinary nature of my agreeing with the nerf, because this one hits me directly.

All you Templars who use this set know as well as I do: this set with explosive charge was reficulously over powered. The broader eso player base failing to notice how OP it was does not change that. Templars are wrongly written off as inrellivant when it comes to tanking. This is a huge mistake because they are incredible. They are written off because they don’t buff dps as much. As result this amazing combo flew under the radar. But all of you who are upset know that I’m, right. This combo enabled us to do things that are simply outside the scope of this game otherwise.

I hate the nerf. But they are right.

What is overpowered about it? You are AOE taunting. It's not allowing you to do 60k dps as a tank. It's not allowing any sort of cheesing of mechanics in end game content. How often have you seen this used in vet trials or trifecta runs for dungeons? I'd bet almost never. Come on, let's be real here my man.

This is a beginner tank set and is far away from being overpowered.

Starlight_Knight · January 30

Im really annoyed they changed this set, AOE taunts being against their core tanking principles, yet they introduce heavy attack builds and oakensoul,
Shame

BejaProphet · January 30

You can be op in ways other than damage. My templar can currently, with a single skill, have 100% aggro the entire fight and survive it with no healer. And I’m talking about vet DLC dungeons. Consider HM moon hunter keep with adds crucial for you to grab. One button. I win.

But to the key is the vision for the game itself. They don’t want the tank able to control every creature every fight. They want that to be an extremely engaging goal. They want DDs to have to notice the minor threats engaging them and react. They want to avoid dungeons merely being going through your rotation. That is THEIR vision for the game. Tormentor single handily departs from that vision. If you think complete aggro dominance is not immensely beneficial to a dungeon group then we are living in two different worlds.

The problem is OP is being reduced to nothing more than trials or a DPS parse.

If you think like that of course you won’t see my point, or theirs.

Soarora · January 30

BejaProphet wrote: »

You can be op in ways other than damage. My templar can currently, with a single skill, have 100% aggro the entire fight and survive it with no healer. And I’m talking about vet DLC dungeons. Consider HM moon hunter keep with adds crucial for you to grab. One button. I win.

But to the key is the vision for the game itself. They don’t want the tank able to control every creature every fight. They want that to be an extremely engaging goal. They want DDs to have to notice the minor threats engaging them and react. They want to avoid dungeons merely being going through your rotation. That is THEIR vision for the game. Tormentor single handily departs from that vision. If you think complete aggro dominance is not immensely beneficial to a dungeon group then we are living in two different worlds.

The problem is OP is being reduced to nothing more than trials or a DPS parse.

If you think like that of course you won’t see my point, or theirs.

The minor threats often do not hit hard enough to matter, assuming that they’re even alive more than a couple seconds. Tormentor is a 5pc set, by wearing it you’re not helping the group with damage and generally damage IS the strongest way to deal with things.

MHK HM I don’t taunt the werewolves but they come at me anyways… which is bad? They’re more dangerous to a tank than anyone else (already a lot going on between the boss, wolves, fears…). If I need to, I use time stop. The only fights in the entire game I can think of as tormentor being a particularly good idea is BC2 HM and DoM orb boss.

UNSeki · January 30

I'd rather they embraced the functionality and established a limit to how many targets be taunted by any single usage of a skill (probably 6, as is the standard for most AoE sets). They could also increase the cost of AoE skills that fit the set's description while the set is equipped. This way a tank would have to spend extra resources and time to taunt a full room, with safety risks.

BejaProphet wrote: »

You can be op in ways other than damage. My templar can currently, with a single skill, have 100% aggro the entire fight and survive it with no healer. And I’m talking about vet DLC dungeons. Consider HM moon hunter keep with adds crucial for you to grab. One button. I win.

But to the key is the vision for the game itself. They don’t want the tank able to control every creature every fight. They want that to be an extremely engaging goal. They want DDs to have to notice the minor threats engaging them and react. They want to avoid dungeons merely being going through your rotation. That is THEIR vision for the game. Tormentor single handily departs from that vision. If you think complete aggro dominance is not immensely beneficial to a dungeon group then we are living in two different worlds.

The problem is OP is being reduced to nothing more than trials or a DPS parse.

If you think like that of course you won’t see my point, or theirs.

Even if you could aggro an entire room and survive all by yourself as you said, this shouldn't be that surprising as this game has always allowed players to solo HM content.

As I said, they could easily limit the power of the set if they wanted, rather than completely eliminate the functionality. And/or limit tank's survivability without a healer, since removing the AoE taunt in Tormentor doesn't have any impact in that completely different issue.

Pixiepumpkin · January 30

BejaProphet wrote: »

You can be op in ways other than damage. My templar can currently, with a single skill, have 100% aggro the entire fight and survive it with no healer. And I’m talking about vet DLC dungeons. Consider HM moon hunter keep with adds crucial for you to grab. One button. I win.

But to the key is the vision for the game itself. They don’t want the tank able to control every creature every fight. They want that to be an extremely engaging goal. They want DDs to have to notice the minor threats engaging them and react. They want to avoid dungeons merely being going through your rotation. That is THEIR vision for the game. Tormentor single handily departs from that vision. If you think complete aggro dominance is not immensely beneficial to a dungeon group then we are living in two different worlds.

The problem is OP is being reduced to nothing more than trials or a DPS parse.

If you think like that of course you won’t see my point, or theirs.

its a failed vision. They lose sight of what is imporant first, fun. The dopamine hit for a tank comes from being indestructible and the most mobs you can tank and withstand the abuse, the more fun it is.

ESO desperately needs more tanks, not less. This is in part due to the terrible decision to make parties 4 players, not 5 or even 6 (absorbing more of the DPS from the queue). Nerfing this set only makes this scenario worse.

BejaProphet · January 30

If their vision for tanking is the correct one is a different conversation. But it is objectively true that this set departs from it.

Keystroke · January 30

BejaProphet wrote: »

You can be op in ways other than damage. My templar can currently, with a single skill, have 100% aggro the entire fight and survive it with no healer. And I’m talking about vet DLC dungeons. Consider HM moon hunter keep with adds crucial for you to grab. One button. I win.

But to the key is the vision for the game itself. They don’t want the tank able to control every creature every fight. They want that to be an extremely engaging goal. They want DDs to have to notice the minor threats engaging them and react. They want to avoid dungeons merely being going through your rotation. That is THEIR vision for the game. Tormentor single handily departs from that vision. If you think complete aggro dominance is not immensely beneficial to a dungeon group then we are living in two different worlds.

The problem is OP is being reduced to nothing more than trials or a DPS parse.

If you think like that of course you won’t see my point, or theirs.

This doesn’t make any sense. If you were a veteran player, or ever spoken to one about this set, all of them will tell you 1000% you do NOT need an AOE taunt in this game. It’s been designed around that not being available and so tanks are given other better tools, like control abilities to immobilize adds (something Templar is lacking in BTW). DK talons has the same “one button I win” disposition from your statement, it even gives minor maim AND a synergy.

This change hurts the fun of Templar and werewolf tanking for nothing but lip service to an empty statement from devs about “core philosophy”. Their core philosophy should be for the fun of the game. This is like the same language they used when they were changing the dot timers around for no reason a year or two ago. The reality is they don’t have a solid philosophical vision for the game that they can execute on.

Gray_howling_parrot · January 30

BejaProphet wrote: »

If their vision for tanking is the correct one is a different conversation. But it is objectively true that this set departs from it.

What is your argument? Who cares? I don't know why you're here to argue their vision. No one is arguing about 'what' their vision is. People are saying this change feels bad. Plain and simple.

Their vision for tanking often is found to be not fun in a video game. This is the entire point. You do no damage and have to single target taunt. Have you played or tanked in virtually any other MMO? Tanking is difficult for beginners. You spend time learning mechanics, especially in action combat, and having an intro set like this to take the worry of taunting away is great. You will quite literally never see this set used in high trifecta end game content.

Templar tank also shined in this regard because it is virtually the only class with an AOE explosive gap closer. Templar tank has quite literally the weakest toolkit for tanking out of every other tank.

I'm baffled at what you're even attempting to argue here. ZOS's vision for tanking came from trying to be unique originally, after seeing hyper-successful games like WoW for inspiration, not trying to create fun for players, plain and simple (or at least, their intentions were fun, but results were not). This change is on theme/on par with several other changes they've made throughout development and updates of the game over the past 10 years; where they nerf sets that have no reason to be nerfed, buff classes (like DK) that have no reason to be buffed, etc. THIS is the issue.

Tormentor feels good to use. It's simple. You get a QOL feature for a tank, but as a result, you take buffs away (potential buffs), from your group members. It's a simple tradeoff. It was never used in PvP. It is virtually never used in high end-game content. It's used in dungeons, infinite archive here and there, etc.

Gray_howling_parrot · January 30

I apologize, I do not know why the bold continued for the entire comment lol.

BejaProphet · January 30

Keystroke wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

You can be op in ways other than damage. My templar can currently, with a single skill, have 100% aggro the entire fight and survive it with no healer. And I’m talking about vet DLC dungeons. Consider HM moon hunter keep with adds crucial for you to grab. One button. I win.

But to the key is the vision for the game itself. They don’t want the tank able to control every creature every fight. They want that to be an extremely engaging goal. They want DDs to have to notice the minor threats engaging them and react. They want to avoid dungeons merely being going through your rotation. That is THEIR vision for the game. Tormentor single handily departs from that vision. If you think complete aggro dominance is not immensely beneficial to a dungeon group then we are living in two different worlds.

The problem is OP is being reduced to nothing more than trials or a DPS parse.

If you think like that of course you won’t see my point, or theirs.

This doesn’t make any sense. If you were a veteran player, or ever spoken to one about this set, all of them will tell you 1000% you do NOT need an AOE taunt in this game. It’s been designed around that not being available and so tanks are given other better tools, like control abilities to immobilize adds (something Templar is lacking in BTW). DK talons has the same “one button I win” disposition from your statement, it even gives minor maim AND a synergy.

This change hurts the fun of Templar and werewolf tanking for nothing but lip service to an empty statement from devs about “core philosophy”. Their core philosophy should be for the fun of the game. This is like the same language they used when they were changing the dot timers around for no reason a year or two ago. The reality is they don’t have a solid philosophical vision for the game that they can execute on.

YOUR statement is making no sense. Explain how these ideas make sense

1. Tormentor STILL single target taunts. (Objective fact about the nerf).
2. Therefore werewolves can still use it to taunt (objective fact).
3. Group taunts are not necessary (your words)
4. Werewolf tanking is being ruined by this (your arguement).

Please explain to me how aoe taunts are irrelevant, and yet now werewolves are ruibed when they are only loosing aoe taunts and can still single target taunt.

And also I’ve been tanking for nearly a decade in this game and my main the last year has been a templar wearing tormentors. I’m ok with my own assessment of it rather than asking other tanks.