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Werewolf Left Behind, Again, in 2024

Wuuffyy
Wuuffyy
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Hello all, it is Wuuffyy! I want to keep this short and simple as I feel that I am "screaming into the wind" at this point and I am running out of room for merited optimism.

I want to preface this by saying, werewolf (of course this about the state of WW now and for posterity) was considered a class under the class rep program a few years back and fills a niche common to many MMOs: physical-type/ physical damage brawler; therefore, should be balanced accordingly with other classes in a way that, at the very least, it is efficient and usable at any given time (yes, I know necros are lacking too, for example, though a least you can sub out for weapon skills/sets).

I really love that ESO is finally adding a more balanced version of "spellcrafting". As a majority PvP player, I am also happy that we are receiving something for PvP (although I am hoping this is not akin to the last PvP update received years ago: bridges). Although we only received a sneak peak with scribing and the other, related skill line; I can tell werewolf was not evaluated during this content development.

Werewolf has honestly been in a state of disrepair in all modes of content since the post-Wolfhunter DLC-nerfs. In PvE, they easily fall behind anywhere from 10-40k DPS compared to any current specs (the latter number especially related to the high end); and, this being majority single target. In PvP, they do not efficiently fill any roles and cannot supplement any skills from class, weapon, or world skills, OR take advantage of the majority of game-changing set items such as Master's/Vateshran to compensate for areas they lack in.

Scribing will be mirror imaging of weapon skills, and lore/sensibility-wise- be locked to weapon skills (and maybe class eventually) and would not affect a form under a "daedric prince".

The point is, we are really behind and werewolf needs another pass. With scribing serving to widen the divide even further; one may ask when, if at all, when will we receive proper balancing updates for these subset of unenjoyable, nearly unplayable specs?
Edited by Wuuffyy on January 19, 2024 12:48AM
Wuuffyy,
ESO player since 2014
-PM for questions
  • Erickson9610
    Erickson9610
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    I'm hoping that eventually Werewolf will get Grimoire skills like Soul Magic and some Guild skill lines are rumored to. At the very least, we can hope on getting Skill Styles for Werewolf at some point in the future.
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    I'm hoping that eventually Werewolf will get Grimoire skills like Soul Magic and some Guild skill lines are rumored to. At the very least, we can hope on getting Skill Styles for Werewolf at some point in the future.
    Yep. If they are adding skill visuals customizations, not adding different WW visual models / different were-creatures would be a crime. I mean, it just like it is asking for it. WW players asked numerous times for something like this, even if it would be crown store only stuff.
  • Erickson9610
    Erickson9610
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    Many people are saying that Werewolf is not one of the skill lines to have an associated Grimoire. I also can't find confirmation that new Grimoires will be created after the release of Gold Road, and it's not guaranteed that Werewolf will have any Skill Styles made for it, either.

    This would've been the perfect opportunity to alleviate some of the pain points that Werewolf players have, such as the lack of ability customization (due to being locked into using only Werewolf skills) and the lack of appearance customization (due to the fur color being dependent on the morph of Werewolf Transformation that you use). A Grimoire for the Werewolf skill line could give Werewolf players the tools they need to tank or heal, while Werewolf Skill Styles could finally give Werewolf players some sort of skin customization.
  • Panderbander
    Panderbander
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    I would not hold your breath for anything to bring werewolf up to par in any content. Just about every thread made on the subject has been met with silence or "that's just the way it is, deal".

    I'll be watching the Q1 PTS but if nothing is done there I'm out for good after years of seeing my preferred playstyle slowly erode away.
    Leader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"
  • Erickson9610
    Erickson9610
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    Many people are saying that Werewolf is not one of the skill lines to have an associated Grimoire. I also can't find confirmation that new Grimoires will be created after the release of Gold Road, and it's not guaranteed that Werewolf will have any Skill Styles made for it, either.

    This would've been the perfect opportunity to alleviate some of the pain points that Werewolf players have, such as the lack of ability customization (due to being locked into using only Werewolf skills) and the lack of appearance customization (due to the fur color being dependent on the morph of Werewolf Transformation that you use). A Grimoire for the Werewolf skill line could give Werewolf players the tools they need to tank or heal, while Werewolf Skill Styles could finally give Werewolf players some sort of skin customization.

    While I can't seem to find any confirmation from official sources whether new Grimoires will be made after the launch of Gold Road, it's rumored that more will be made for skill lines which were not initially covered (including those for Class skill lines) so there's still a chance that Werewolf will get to use this system, albeit not at launch. There may also be more than one Grimoire for any particular skill line in the future, so it may be possible to have 6 or more skill choices for Werewolf in the future. We just need to wait and see (even if we wait until 2025)!
  • Tyrant_Tim
    Tyrant_Tim
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    I’m going to quote my thread on the topic…
    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    Spellcrafting

    https://youtu.be/XY_Ei0VOJU4?si=old0IKgDH3PjzKAO
    Every time I watch that video from Quakecon 2014, going over all the details of how Spellcrafting would be implemented, it brings me so much joy, a theorycrafter at heart, this feature is a dream.

    I want everyone to experience that, and what better time to deliver on that promise, than the 10th Anniversary of ESO as a gift to the community.

    That being said, we’ve now seen the system feature is Scribing, an iteration of Spellcrafting that could work for Werewolf, even at a limited capacity.

    Werewolves don’t need to be throwing fireballs at people, but who would it hurt if they got access to some commonly sourced buffs, more bleeds, a magicka heal-over-time, stamina burst heal, a taunt, skills for mitigation, ect…

    Right now the playstyle is extremely vanilla, with minimal customization.

    Scribing could remedy this.
    Edited by Tyrant_Tim on January 19, 2024 5:10PM
  • Tyrant_Tim
    Tyrant_Tim
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    For context…

    q25ki3opwzdy.jpeg

    Within the picture, you can see there are already limitations set for the new Bow skill “Vault,” I would imagine if Scribing is made for Wolves, the same concept can be applied.

    It’s as easy as stripping fire/frost/shock/magic from their damage types and allowing everything else.
  • Pixiepumpkin
    Pixiepumpkin
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    Not gonna lie, I forgot werewolves were a thing in game.
    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Panderbander
    Panderbander
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    Nothing like being a second-rate citizen of ESO for having the audacity of enjoying werewolf more than the base classes!
    Leader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"
  • Erickson9610
    Erickson9610
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    What I hope to get out of Scribing for a Werewolf build is at least one new skill that can be customized.

    There are tons of animations for the werewolf character model that could be used for a new skill if the designers didn't want to make an elaborate animation like the backflip shown with the Vault Grimoire for the Bow skill line. Notably, I think of the one animation that werewolf NPCs have where they jump into the air and knock the player back, or another animation where the werewolf swipes with their claws four times and then bites twice. I'd personally love to finally have a biting skill like Werewolf Behemoth has.

    Regardless, the base animation for a Werewolf Grimoire wouldn't necessarily have to be magical — it could look like another physical attack (just like how Infectious Claws, Pounce, and Piercing Howl aren't visually "magical") but with the ability to have its damage type changed. Maybe an AoE Grimoire like the one shown for Vault could allow Werewolf to heal/buff their allies or taunt enemies. After all, this development screenshot shows that Vault, a Bow Grimoire, is going to allow players to heal allies or taunt enemies with the Primary effect:

    ieb4pjt8a6os.png

    So it's entirely possible that a Werewolf Grimoire could help Werewolf players fill in many of the holes that their build naturally has. Also, I'll bet that one of the Secondary effects for a Werewolf Grimoire will probably be to add time to the Werewolf Transformation timer, since the Secondary effects play into the identity of the associated skill line. Maybe this could be an easier way for Werewolf to sustain their timer when there are no enemies around?
  • spartaxoxo
    spartaxoxo
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    I would not hold your breath for anything to bring werewolf up to par in any content. Just about every thread made on the subject has been met with silence or "that's just the way it is, deal".

    I'll be watching the Q1 PTS but if nothing is done there I'm out for good after years of seeing my preferred playstyle slowly erode away.

    Q1 is just the dungeons. There wouldn't be anything there even if something came with the chapter.
  • Panderbander
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    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    I would not hold your breath for anything to bring werewolf up to par in any content. Just about every thread made on the subject has been met with silence or "that's just the way it is, deal".

    I'll be watching the Q1 PTS but if nothing is done there I'm out for good after years of seeing my preferred playstyle slowly erode away.

    Q1 is just the dungeons. There wouldn't be anything there even if something came with the chapter.

    Well the road map does list quality of life improvements for Q1... though the last time we got QOL improvements, werewolf's quality of life was "improved" by having our one and only snare removed without explanation.
    Leader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"
  • Erickson9610
    Erickson9610
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    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    For context…

    q25ki3opwzdy.jpeg

    Within the picture, you can see there are already limitations set for the new Bow skill “Vault,” I would imagine if Scribing is made for Wolves, the same concept can be applied.

    It’s as easy as stripping fire/frost/shock/magic from their damage types and allowing everything else.

    You can even see that the damage types for the Vault Grimoire are also thematically appropriate. Fire is there because you could light an arrow aflame before firing it, and Venom is there because you could also poison your arrows. Of course, Physical and Bleed go hand-in-hand when talking about martial weapons and projectiles.

    For a Werewolf Grimoire, I'd imagine we would get to use Physical, Bleed, and Disease. All of those damage types are already covered by existing Werewolf skills (Piercing Howl is Physical, Pounce and Werewolf Berserker light attacks are Bleed, and Infectious Claws is Disease) so it would likely be more about roleplay flavor than it would be about trying to fit in another damage type that isn't already in the Werewolf toolkit.

    Werewolf Behemoths (especially Balorgh, and also the player's own Werewolf Behemoth form used in Stone Garden and in the Infinite Archive) are the only sort of werewolf seen to be using Poison, Frost, Flame, and Shock damage types. Technically, ZOS could allow those damage types if they really wanted to. I'd imagine the reason for giving that power to regular werewolves would be difficult to justify thematically, however.
  • Tyrant_Tim
    Tyrant_Tim
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    I can’t imagine being a Werewolf main…

    There’s just nothing going on.

    They don’t excel at burst for PvP, they don’t have high enough damage-per-second for PvE, they don’t have a taunt for tanking, and have no way of providing heals for their group.

    You can’t customize their appearance, so what role does Werewolf even have in ESO?
    Edited by Tyrant_Tim on January 21, 2024 2:08AM
  • Erickson9610
    Erickson9610
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    Tyrant_Tim wrote: »
    I can’t imagine being a Werewolf main…

    There’s just nothing going on.

    They don’t excel at burst for PvP, they don’t have high enough damage-per-second for PvE, they don’t have a taunt for tanking, and have no way of providing heals for their group.

    You can’t customize their appearance, so what role does Werewolf even have in ESO?

    I think a lot of us came from TES V: Skyrim. I genuinely cannot think of a better game than that to roleplay as the stereotypical horror werewolf in an open world format. To this day, when you look up a list of games that even allow you to play as a werewolf, Skyrim is highly ranked on that list, above all of the hack-and-slash and shooter werewolf games, the fighting games/MOBAs with werewolf characters, and the MMOs with playable werewolves.

    ESO does implement Werewolf better than Skyrim does at some points. For instance, before ESO, all werewolves had brown fur, although players currently have no way to customize their werewolf form's appearance outside of selecting a morph to their transformation ability. Further, ESO is an online game, so this is the only TES game where multiple players can roleplay together as a savage werewolf pack.

    Werewolf in ESO is a niche for a very specific demographic. There are other games which feature werewolf characters — including PvP games where those werewolf characters fill a particular niche well enough — but they don't let you roleplay as a monster straight out of a horror movie in an open world. The reason I'm still here is because I am a fan of TES werewolves, and I want the best for them as the franchise continues.
  • IncultaWolf
    IncultaWolf
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    Just a reminder, that Nefas rated the entire werewolf as the worst skill line in ESO.

    https://youtu.be/zDxnAndKPUw?si=L94zwo-4cXexu5Ic

    This isn't the only content creator to say this either, ask any streamer what they think of werewolf, they will probably laugh and say it's a meme, there's a reason nobody will play it competitively. I'm just curious if it's been discussed or brought up between the combat team. I've had a lot of friends leave the game because of the way this playstyle has been treated and forgotten.

    @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno
  • huskandhunger
    huskandhunger
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    Wuuffyy wrote: »
    Hello all, it is Wuuffyy! I want to keep this short and simple as I feel that I am "screaming into the wind" at this point and I am running out of room for merited optimism.

    I want to preface this by saying, werewolf (of course this about the state of WW now and for posterity) was considered a class under the class rep program a few years back and fills a niche common to many MMOs: physical-type/ physical damage brawler; therefore, should be balanced accordingly with other classes in a way that, at the very least, it is efficient and usable at any given time (yes, I know necros are lacking too, for example, though a least you can sub out for weapon skills/sets).

    I really love that ESO is finally adding a more balanced version of "spellcrafting". As a majority PvP player, I am also happy that we are receiving something for PvP (although I am hoping this is not akin to the last PvP update received years ago: bridges). Although we only received a sneak peak with scribing and the other, related skill line; I can tell werewolf was not evaluated during this content development.

    Werewolf has honestly been in a state of disrepair in all modes of content since the post-Wolfhunter DLC-nerfs. In PvE, they easily fall behind anywhere from 10-40k DPS compared to any current specs (the latter number especially related to the high end); and, this being majority single target. In PvP, they do not efficiently fill any roles and cannot supplement any skills from class, weapon, or world skills, OR take advantage of the majority of game-changing set items such as Master's/Vateshran to compensate for areas they lack in.

    Scribing will be mirror imaging of weapon skills, and lore/sensibility-wise- be locked to weapon skills (and maybe class eventually) and would not affect a form under a "daedric prince".

    The point is, we are really behind and werewolf needs another pass. With scribing serving to widen the divide even further; one may ask when, if at all, when will we receive proper balancing updates for these subset of unenjoyable, nearly unplayable specs?

    Definitely werewolves have been falling behind for a long time now in a lot of areas of the game like PVE and PVP. The Scribing system could be a way to add back in customization through, for instance a werewolf grimoire mayhaps, and potentially address some of the long standing concerns players have expressed around relevance of werewolf abilities and passives / visuals. @ZOS_Gilliam
  • Wuuffyy
    Wuuffyy
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    Wuuffyy wrote: »
    Hello all, it is Wuuffyy! I want to keep this short and simple as I feel that I am "screaming into the wind" at this point and I am running out of room for merited optimism.

    I want to preface this by saying, werewolf (of course this about the state of WW now and for posterity) was considered a class under the class rep program a few years back and fills a niche common to many MMOs: physical-type/ physical damage brawler; therefore, should be balanced accordingly with other classes in a way that, at the very least, it is efficient and usable at any given time (yes, I know necros are lacking too, for example, though a least you can sub out for weapon skills/sets).

    I really love that ESO is finally adding a more balanced version of "spellcrafting". As a majority PvP player, I am also happy that we are receiving something for PvP (although I am hoping this is not akin to the last PvP update received years ago: bridges). Although we only received a sneak peak with scribing and the other, related skill line; I can tell werewolf was not evaluated during this content development.

    Werewolf has honestly been in a state of disrepair in all modes of content since the post-Wolfhunter DLC-nerfs. In PvE, they easily fall behind anywhere from 10-40k DPS compared to any current specs (the latter number especially related to the high end); and, this being majority single target. In PvP, they do not efficiently fill any roles and cannot supplement any skills from class, weapon, or world skills, OR take advantage of the majority of game-changing set items such as Master's/Vateshran to compensate for areas they lack in.

    Scribing will be mirror imaging of weapon skills, and lore/sensibility-wise- be locked to weapon skills (and maybe class eventually) and would not affect a form under a "daedric prince".

    The point is, we are really behind and werewolf needs another pass. With scribing serving to widen the divide even further; one may ask when, if at all, when will we receive proper balancing updates for these subset of unenjoyable, nearly unplayable specs?

    Definitely werewolves have been falling behind for a long time now in a lot of areas of the game like PVE and PVP. The Scribing system could be a way to add back in customization through, for instance a werewolf grimoire mayhaps, and potentially address some of the long standing concerns players have expressed around relevance of werewolf abilities and passives / visuals. @ZOS_Gilliam

    I think it would be a good addition, to add those grimoires. The main issue that exists with that are there no promises of lore or balance reasons they feel that they would add grimoires for werewolf/vampire. Beyond that, it would easily take another 3 months minimum before the ability to have those added would become transparent and additionally would still not be available for base game werewolf players (not fully solving the horrid balancing issues that exists with it).
    Wuuffyy,
    ESO player since 2014
    -PM for questions
  • Trejgon
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    Stx wrote: »
    I do feel bad that wolves are being entirely left out of this new system.

    System launches with grimoire for weapon skills, base game guild skills (and even then only 2 out of 3) and Alliance skills. Which Rich Lambert beind stated to say "and then we will go from there" implying that future updates will bring more grimoires for more skill lines.

    Stating that "wolves" are completely left out of this new system, is in my opinion not justified, primarily because there is ALOT of skill lines (like the other curse just for starters) not included in the original release.

    Now don't get me wrong, I do agree that werewolves (and vampires while at it :P) could use a rework to bring them more in line with realities of modern state of ESO, I am simply disagreeing with framing scribing update as if it was purposefully leaving that particular skill line out.....
  • Erickson9610
    Erickson9610
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    Trejgon wrote: »
    Stx wrote: »
    I do feel bad that wolves are being entirely left out of this new system.

    System launches with grimoire for weapon skills, base game guild skills (and even then only 2 out of 3) and Alliance skills. Which Rich Lambert beind stated to say "and then we will go from there" implying that future updates will bring more grimoires for more skill lines.

    Stating that "wolves" are completely left out of this new system, is in my opinion not justified, primarily because there is ALOT of skill lines (like the other curse just for starters) not included in the original release.

    Now don't get me wrong, I do agree that werewolves (and vampires while at it :P) could use a rework to bring them more in line with realities of modern state of ESO, I am simply disagreeing with framing scribing update as if it was purposefully leaving that particular skill line out.....

    While Vampires can use all of their skill lines, Werewolves cannot. If it's certain that other skill lines will get Grimoires in the future, then I will wait — but I won't get to use the feature until then. Vampire and Werewolf should've been included from the start if they considered making a Grimoire for Soul Magic, the other World skill line with active abilities.

    When they chose their initial skill lines to receive Grimoires, they wanted to make accessible ones that all playstyles and classes could use, and they only had a select few they could make with their time budget. It's no problem for Vampire, since they can just use any Grimoire of their choosing... but again, I feel like Werewolf was forgotten because the fact that Werewolf can't slot any non-Werewolf skills was never taken into consideration.

    So, it's understandable why Vampire and Werewolf were initially left out — the curses are mutually exclusive, and not every player has a cursed character or knows how to make their character become cursed. That's why they chose Soul Magic and ignored the other World skill lines. But it's just unfortunate that because of the way Werewolf is designed, anyone engaging with the playstyle is barred from experiencing this Chapter's new feature until further notice.
  • Shagreth
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    I honestly expect them to never touch Vampires or Werewolves ever again, they are too scared to.
  • Tyrant_Tim
    Tyrant_Tim
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    Shagreth wrote: »
    I honestly expect them to never touch Vampires or Werewolves ever again, they are too scared to.

    Fingers crossed that this is the year they do.

    I’ve wanted to be able to make a viable vampire build for both PvE and PvP for quite some time, and would appreciate the curses to get some attention in 2024.
  • IncultaWolf
    IncultaWolf
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    Shagreth wrote: »
    I honestly expect them to never touch Vampires or Werewolves ever again, they are too scared to.

    After the Greymoor chapter meta? Yeah I believe it
  • huskandhunger
    huskandhunger
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    Here is some more tentative info from hack the minotaur, a content creator, it seems werewolf and vampire skill lines are left out at the moment potentially and if so that would be most disappointing. https://hacktheminotaur.com/eso-guides/scribing/
  • ADarklore
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    People saying that there won't be any more Grimoires added after Gold Road clearly didn't watch the stream closely enough or haven't listened to streamers who were got advance information about GR from ZOS. They started that this was 'just the beginning'- not just for Scribing but also for Styling. They plan to eventually add Grimoires for all class skills as well, but not in the initial release because there are too many class skills to work with.
    CP: 1880 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
  • Erickson9610
    Erickson9610
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    If the Slate-Gray Summoned Bear collectible is an early example of Skill Styling, then perhaps the same system could be used for changing the fur color of your Werewolf form. Here's an example of the existing werewolf fur colors in-game:

    ufmi9ag3jdvz.png

    Further, there are special werewolf skins and polymorphs:

    5ciwm2r5r90g.png

    The assets to give Werewolf players a base level of customization are in-game. I sincerely hope that the Skill Styling feature will give Werewolf players at least some form of customization. Hopefully it will be as easy to use as the Slate-Gray Summoned Bear collectible, or any of the other Customized Actions — just a simple toggle in the Collections menu, same as with any other customization to your human form.

    There have been plenty of threads asking for Werewolf form customizations, but here's a link to a thread with plenty of discussion and ideas surrounding the subject:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621167/new-werewolf-player-model-skins
  • SmellyUnlimited
    SmellyUnlimited
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    Give werewolves minor expedition at all times, and a way to get major expedition through a skill (leap for one). Speed up the rate of devour (how long does it take to rip a chunk out?), and maybe refashion werewolf like it used to be - stamina regen even out of werewolf form if the ult is slotted. You can make the player more susceptible to poison to factor in the same type of weaknesses as vampire.
    Edited by SmellyUnlimited on January 28, 2024 1:04AM
    DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)
  • Panderbander
    Panderbander
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    Werewolf gets no benefit outside of form and is squishier when out of form than any vampire due to the lack of undeath. Poison weakness makes little sense in form and no sense outside of form.

    That said, a few major or minor buffs likely won't make a big difference to werewolves. Skill scaling and mechanics need addressing (want to immediately cut 20% of a werewolf's damage? Just turn around.) , they need some additional incentive to run with other werewolves, and something needs to be done to address their complete lack of mobility abilities. 30% movement speed without a removal/immunity is not enough when everyone snares seemingly passively.

    This is not a comprehensive list in any capacity.
    Leader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"
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