Class Identity Program

Woodenplank

############################ Class Identity - The Concept ############################
So what is Class Identity in Elder Scrolls?
Even since the first game of the main series, TES titles have played loose with the concept of Classes. In Oblivion it defined your starting skill levels and how to level up, in Skyrim it was missing completely.

And in ESO, it's still hazy - we all have access to a variety of Weapon, Armor, Guild, and WW/Vampire skill lines.
But each Class possesses something unique; a trio of skill lines to call their own! These Should™ give each class a particular specialty; a unique look and feel.

In all my hubris here's my take on Class identities:

############################ Class Identity - The List ############################

• Nightblade
  • This is our Rogue from World of Warcraft Stealth, Mobility, and Critical Class!
  • Are we talking about Critical in a sense that it's enough to carry their DPS in PVE scenarios? Well no, mostly no.
  • Are we talking Stealth and Mobility in a way that's useful outside of PVP ganking/escape-artistry? Well no, mostly no.
• Dragonknight
  • Dragonknights should be Fiery Fiery or Poisonous Hybrid Fiery and Poisonous! ZOS wants strong poisonous dots, and strong, fiery burst!
  • Dragonknights are heavy knights. They have strong defensive abilities - active and passive - and ultimates.
  • A knight must also be dangerous! So ZOS wants their ultimates to not sacrifice offense or sustain for defensiveness. An ultimate that grants both defensive and offensive powers, and resource restore, is the epitome of Dragonknight identity in their eyes. (Snip for bashing? It's hyperbole, I apologize in advance).
  • This is balanced by them not having a class source of Minor Expedition or something, I'm not sure.
• Templar
  • Templar used to be the only valid healer Class. That wasn't okay, of course, so we can't call that their identity any more (thankfully).
  • They used to be very much about 'area control' - With Nova, Ritual, and Rune Focus combining defensive, sustain, and area damage to "put a place on lockdown", so to speak.
  • However Nova is almost entirely phased out of play (at least in PVE), and Ritual has been reduced to
    • A. A pure DPS skill for mostly static PVE or ...
    • B. A button that purges Rending Slashes and Elemental Susceptiblity in PVP.
• Sorcerer
  • This is our Pet Class. A Sorcerer is committing horrible self-nerf by not including Class pets (preferably both. And the ultimate one too) in their build.
  • The pets also have active abilities. One or two of which are actually useful on occasion.
  • This is also our Mobility Class. It is integral to the Sorcerer play-style that they can run away from all the fights they'll never win.
• Warden
  • Maybe this was supposed to be a Pet Class, but Sorcerer kind'a had that going already, so it's just one pet. And a small collection of ephemeral buff-beasts and short-lived kamikaze animals.
  • Then it was decided this should be the Using a Frost Staff Class. But after ZOS invented Elemental Susceptibility we now can't get people to stop using Frost Staves.
  • Further consideration required.
• Necromancer
  • Necromancer is one of the Classes in The Elder Scrolls Online.
• Arcanist
  • The Arcanist is the Relies On This One Beam Attack archetype.
  • Okay granted, the Crux mechanic is kinda cool and interesting, but can essentially be summarized as: build stacks; buff beam; build stacks...
  • They're also a Shield Class. You may have thought that was Sorcerer, but Arcanists are just better at it, and it scales with health now, lol. Oh and the Ultimate one does damage too.

For rather a long time, I feel like Class identities have been fading and thinning.
This was always a risk in a game with so many shared skills, of course. But the demand for multiple specializations; the abrasive power of Players forcing themselves into the Tank-DPS-Heal trifecta, and hybridization has washed out much of the Class 'feel'. Everyone in the same dozen or so sets, same armor weights, and (for a lot of Classes) same weapon-line spamables, and Guild ultimates.

Is this a bad thing? I think so, but maybe I'm just another keyboard warrior with a superiority complex and an affinity for walls of text (wouldn't be the first time that's happened)

What are your takes on Class Identities? Should ZOS be reinforcing them, rethinking them, or forgetting them?

Nihilr

My husband and care less about class identity. That's an MMO thing. We're here for the quests, stories, and theme builds. Ideally we could pick skills from any class (maximum slots of 5-10), and a maximum of 4-8 passives for a specific build theme. That would be the closest to Spellcrafting I can see this game having. We're not holding our breathe anymore or getting hyped until these things are confirmed though. Depending on Thursday's 2024 reveal, will decide if we preorder and continue subscribing-- or wait 6 months until after the chapter release to buy again and maybe resub.

New classless skill lines are more important to us. I've never been in love with all 3 skill lines for any class, except maybe Nightblade. But even then, there's no focus on referring to these skills from their respective schools of magic (illusion, destruction, mysticism, restoration etc).

Hottytotz

Completely agree with OP. There are a lot of factors but hybrid gameplay has added a few things and taken much more away over time.

Class identity is bad in general. The most thematic classes all base themselves around a single passive in their class effecting status effects or damage types. (burning for dk and chill for warden etc). On the opposite side you have supposed classes like necromancy who have a "DOT" damage passive LOL. Yet blastbones does a higher percentage of their damage than most classes spammables.

Class flavor is long gone. The only class flavor now is what color you sparkle or blast with.

IDK how to fix it. Having certain classes have more impactful damage affinities is one way maybe? Like actually make necro dots SLAP at the cost of direct damage or somthing, or how warden does so much damage with chilled. That has felt kind of cool since it was changed. Maybe DKs do big burn and poison(lol poison damage is a joke on any class), NB maybe does huge hemorrage, sorc does somthing neat with concussed, templar can apply burn with magic damage attacks maybe?, necro does somthing neat with disease or has a general higher chance to proc statuses, arcanist is a mess and I HATE that a class got made for a SINGLE Daedric Prince........... Are we getting one for like all 16 now? Arcanists was one of the stupidest decisions idk how you save it. Its lliterally just an OP beam right now and takes 4 of the best things about other classes and just has better tuning on them like aoe damage, status damage, and huge *** shields for no reason other than its new.

Billium813

Templar

Thematically, I like Templar's "Light" aesthetic. I think they messed it up a bit with Jabs (I liked the "shard of light" design it used to have way more) but overall, I like Templar being a holy warrior that uses light.

My biggest pain point with Templar's aesthetic is that it's pretty dated and has been REALLY overshadowed recently by Arcanist. I mean... Templar doesn't even have proper Sun Shield animation anymore! Meanwhile Arcanist can suit up with green armor and awesome looking glowing weapons. Just feels bad in comparison.

Functionally, I really like Templar's "Area denial" design. It feels like a straightforward, functional design, that has obvious downsides (which is important too). Templar should be all about protection and damage, but in a limited AOE. They build a house and then live in it. The issue is that gameplay is naturally fluid! Picking up and moving that house, in order to get the best effect, is the main downside; costing resources and actions.

My biggest issue with Templar functionally is that there's not really a flow to most Skills and Passives; it feels very haphazardly thrown togeth. Too many Passives are VERY dated or don't encourage any play patterns. Many Skills are not doubling down on the "Area denial" design that I think Templar should be known for. Changes like buffing Rune Focus while in the AOE are nice, but the Passives for Restoring Light are total trash. Dawn's Wrath has a big issue with being DPS heavy and Sun Shield could stand a new design too. Templar really needs to benefit allies nearby in a way that isn't JUST Extended Ritual purge.

Woodenplank

Billium813 wrote: »

Too many Passives are VERY dated or don't encourage any play patterns.

You mean to say you're not crazy about that 50% chance to fill an empty soul gem af resurrecting someone? Surely even the Arcanists envy us for that one!

merpins

Here's a take that I've seen a couple times, and I'm an advocate of: rather than doubling down on class identity and solidifying 3 skill lines for every class in the game, which harbor meaning that is specific and you need to choose one of... Let's dissolve that whole thing. Make each class a Theme, and each theme has a number of skill lines. It doesn't need to be 3 skill lines in each theme; older themes like the Nightblade theme could have 4 or more skill lines, and newer themes may only have 1 at first. When you start the game, you choose three skill lines from any theme. Now rather than being tied to a specific archetype that follows specific logic, you could make your own logic. Beast tamer class? Well, that's just Animal Companions from the Warden theme, Daedric Summoning from the Sorcerer theme, and Grave Lord from the Necromancer theme. Your identity, like in all the previous elder scrolls games, is now primarily up to how you want to build your identity.

Are there downsides? Yes, of course. Balance would be an obvious issue, but with the game having a limit to the skills you can slot, and the fact that it would be easier to balance one skill line at a time than whole classes at a time, that issue would be easier to remedy than even the current class system in my opinion. I can see more upsides than downsides. For one, the game wouldn't be locked at each class only having 3 skill lines. Instead, themes can get more skill lines, you just get 3 choices. Sorcerer doesn't have a dedicated healing skill line? Well it can get one. Warden doesn't have a plant-based DPS skill line? It can get that, too. New weapon skill lines? Well, rather than creating new weapons in the game and having to do a ton of retrospective additions to content, just make a theme based around different weapon types. Zos wouldn't need to make 3 skill lines and release a whole class, they could just release one skill line for a theme at a time, meaning they could release them more often. And, they'd definitely make bank by having a theme change coupon in the cash shop.

Class identity is important. But I think this game is more suited to allowing the player to choose that identity.

auz

Perfect summarisation of the necromancer class identity.

BenTSG

merpins wrote: »

Here's a take that I've seen a couple times, and I'm an advocate of: rather than doubling down on class identity and solidifying 3 skill lines for every class in the game, which harbor meaning that is specific and you need to choose one of... Let's dissolve that whole thing. Make each class a Theme, and each theme has a number of skill lines. It doesn't need to be 3 skill lines in each theme; older themes like the Nightblade theme could have 4 or more skill lines, and newer themes may only have 1 at first. When you start the game, you choose three skill lines from any theme. Now rather than being tied to a specific archetype that follows specific logic, you could make your own logic. Beast tamer class? Well, that's just Animal Companions from the Warden theme, Daedric Summoning from the Sorcerer theme, and Grave Lord from the Necromancer theme. Your identity, like in all the previous elder scrolls games, is now primarily up to how you want to build your identity.

Are there downsides? Yes, of course. Balance would be an obvious issue, but with the game having a limit to the skills you can slot, and the fact that it would be easier to balance one skill line at a time than whole classes at a time, that issue would be easier to remedy than even the current class system in my opinion. I can see more upsides than downsides. For one, the game wouldn't be locked at each class only having 3 skill lines. Instead, themes can get more skill lines, you just get 3 choices. Sorcerer doesn't have a dedicated healing skill line? Well it can get one. Warden doesn't have a plant-based DPS skill line? It can get that, too. New weapon skill lines? Well, rather than creating new weapons in the game and having to do a ton of retrospective additions to content, just make a theme based around different weapon types. Zos wouldn't need to make 3 skill lines and release a whole class, they could just release one skill line for a theme at a time, meaning they could release them more often. And, they'd definitely make bank by having a theme change coupon in the cash shop.

Class identity is important. But I think this game is more suited to allowing the player to choose that identity.

This is what I wish ESO would have done with classes too. In the early days, the classes probably had their identity more solidified and in a more Rock, Paper, Scissors sort of set up, but now it feels like many things just follow a meta on gear rather then class. Plus, changing it to this would let people run wild with entire identies of their own for their characters. Of course, things would need balancing, but as far as skills are concerned they could just make all similar skills do the same plus one flavour thing, so like DKs armour ability gives 5k armour and a small Fire AoE, while Wardens gives 5K and a small Frost AoE. Just make the classes as Archetypes you can pick and choose from, let people go wild and make their themes and play styles!

It's a pipe dream, but dreaming doesn't hurt.

Treeshka

Class identity is basically what your class can bring to table as buffs.

Nightblade and Sorcerer giving Minor Savagery and Prophecy. Sorcerer also giving Major Berserk to everyone in your group provided that they are in range. Arcanist giving Minor Evasion. Warden giving Minor Toughness. Templar and Dragonknight giving Minor Sorcery and Brutality.

Necro giving Major Vulnerability to foes but why they added other sets for this buff is still unknown for me, as it hits the class identity most. But they are good for Elemental Catalyst. Commonly used buff set for raids.

ADarklore

I don't care about class "identity", I care about a class that's fun to play and that I ENJOY playing.

TankHealz2015

I would like a more defined class identity.
Like each class brings a special utility that no one else can... For RP, PvE, and PvP.

DrNukenstein

I think they should reinforce identity through intended weaknesses.

Right now every class is very good at dealing, healing and mitigating with no down time all on the same load out.

Nihilr

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I think they should reinforce identity through intended weaknesses.

Right now every class is very good at dealing, healing and mitigating with no down time all on the same load out.

We can add elemental weaknesses/strengths back to the game as it was in the beginning, without reinforcing "classes". I mean, ideally, no one should be using only frost magic if they are fighting Frost Atronachs.

Elder Scrolls has always been about slotting skills for different scenarios. About to queue for Frostvault? Slot fire destruction spells, and fire glyph to your weapon. Classes actually currently don't make sense, gatekeeping certain elements to one character, and almost 0 access to others. I know there's the Undaunted and Mage's guild fire abilities, but what about frost? Shock?

I guess you could say there could be so much more flavor, and class identity isn't the problem. It's lack of options. People still prefer a theme to their build: Elemental, poison/disease, bleed, DoTs, Damage shields, etc. Idc what becomes meta, most players are playing to build a themed character so that they can do the most content that they can with.

Woodenplank

merpins wrote: »

[...] When you start the game, you choose three skill lines from any theme. Now rather than being tied to a specific archetype that follows specific logic, you could make your own logic. Beast tamer class? Well, that's just Animal Companions from the Warden theme, Daedric Summoning from the Sorcerer theme, and Grave Lord from the Necromancer theme.[...]
but with the game having a limit to the skills you can slot, and the fact that it would be easier to balance one skill line at a time than whole classes at a time[...]

I get your point, I do, and the "mix and match" concept does sound like fun - the kind of mental experiment I often do myself; much like "what'd I do, if I could use more than 1 Mythic?" or "what if I could combine multiple civilizations' bonuses" - alhtough the latter is about Age of Empires 2...

However, I think it would be a nightmare to balance, rather than being easier.

Imagine someone picks Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Grave Lord themes as you suggest.
Well imagine they use Bear Guardian Ultimate, grab a Skeletal Archer from back-bar, slot both Sorcerer pets, pop Blastbones and then throws on Daedric Prey for +45% damage from all those skills - most of which were balanced without Daedric Prey in mind. And I think it would be rather overpowered (guessing).

So how do the devs react? Do we nerf the Bear Companion? Heck no, that would ruin it for all the poor sods that just wanted to play a druid type with a single animal companion.
Do we nerf Daedric Prey? Hopefully not; that would trash the whole daedric summoning theme.
Do we nerf Blast Bones and Skeletal Archer? Ya' kiddin' me?

The compartmentalization of having distinct classes gives, I think, a greater measure of control. If Sorcerers are overperforming, you can just nerf the Sorcs without touching anyone else.
(And since ZOS seems to love the idea of nerfing Sorcs, I guess it's a good thing that it's at least happening in a vacuum:D )

Treeshka wrote: »

Class identity is basically what your class can bring to table as buffs.

Nightblade and Sorcerer giving Minor Savagery and Prophecy. Sorcerer also giving Major Berserk to everyone in your group provided that they are in range. Arcanist giving Minor Evasion. Warden giving Minor Toughness. Templar and Dragonknight giving Minor Sorcery and Brutality.

Necro giving Major Vulnerability to foes but why they added other sets for this buff is still unknown for me, as it hits the class identity most. But they are good for Elemental Catalyst. Commonly used buff set for raids.

In the context of Group and/or Trials PVE (and some organized PVP) yes, this is somewhat true.

What about solo PVE and how you go about that? What about PVP? There are other considerations to this than just optimizing Trial Groups.

Nihilr

Woodenplank wrote: »

...However, I think it would be a nightmare to balance, rather than being easier...

The compartmentalization of having distinct classes gives, I think, a greater measure of control. If Sorcerers are overperforming, you can just nerf the Sorcs without touching anyone else.
(And since ZOS seems to love the idea of nerfing Sorcs, I guess it's a good thing that it's at least happening in a vacuum:D )

I disagree, nerfing an entire class because 1 or 2 skills/passives punishes all players, rather than just adjusting that one skill or skill-line. I'm not gonna change my character's theme to a different class skill line if an ability changes for the worse. I'll find another set to boost it again. Sure it may not be the BEST anymore, but if we keep catering to endgamers as to why we can't open up our options? People are going to exploit the BiS regardless . So why not make +80% of your player base happier?

derpy_mushroom

Woodenplank wrote: »

[*] Sorcerer

• This is our Pet Class. A Sorcerer is committing horrible self-nerf by not including Class pets (preferably both. And the ultimate one too) in their build.
• The pets also have active abilities. One or two of which are actually useful on occasion.
• This is also our Mobility Class. It is integral to the Sorcerer play-style that they can run away from all the fights they'll never win.

Sorcerer shouldn't be pigeonholed into the Pet Class niche (although I might be biased from when I began the game) but it's the Storm Mage class too. There used to be great diversity in in the fact that Sorcerer could do well both with pets and without them, and many of us ran the class without pets because of this, we want Non-pet back too.

Sorcerer should be the master of magic, with or without pets, much like how Templar was THE healer or DK is THE Heavy Knight. The fact that we're so gimped without pets is a miserable experience, especially considering we can make use of more of the Sorcerer's abilities when we don't have 4 slots filled by pets.

Stx

First of all, I will always stand by the opinion that they shouldn’t have had classes at all in this game. This is an Elder scrolls game! Just have bunch of skill lines that players can choose from and balance the skills in those lines accordingly.

But as far as class identity goes.

Templar - Restoration Magic, Aedric Magic makes sense to me. Sun Magic? That’s an odd one I don’t really get but overall I think the class has a solid theme.

Nightblade - A mix of classic agility based damage dealer and illusion magic user. Solid.

Sorcerer - Dark Magic is odd. Shock magic cool, summoning daedra? Cool.

Dragon knight - This is a really weird class to me. Melee fire magic specialist and for some reason the poison specialist too. I think it’s a really odd choice to base a class around ‘dragon’

Warden - They tried to cram nature magic user, beast master, and frost mage all into one. This class is cool but feels odd.

Necromancer - Clear theme, awesome.

Arcanist - Lol, no comment.

KlauthWarthog

Woodenplank wrote: »

• Necromancer
  • Necromancer is one of the Classes in The Elder Scrolls Online.

This is a very bold statement to make.

bar_boss_A

I think the classes all have an identity but the overall system does not allow specialization without a loss of overall power.

We need more interesting slotable CP choices like for example: "Fire Expertise: add 400 magical and physical damage to your flame damage abilities", which would unlock a second slotable CP: "Master of Fire: increases your damage dealt with flame abilities by 6%". Just a simple generic dk dd example.

On the other side we are all bound to play the same sets because trial sets are that overperforming. Trial five set boni should be more generic but ever so slightly weaker then other attainable sets. Or remove that nasty minor slayer/aegis and keep the overpowered 5 piece boni. Olorime and SPC are a good example on how trial sets could allow diversity.

Elyu

Will link 2 previous discussions as this thread is a continuation of these previous:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/642544/

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8009087

Way back when, when stam dks were given poison skills I was EXCITED as it gave a unique identity to stam dks to differentiate them from mag dks.
That should have been the foundation upon which ZOS built class identity upon.

But hybridization has only reduced class identity - by increasing 'options' it has reduced creativity (although you CAN build 'any way you want' on any class - you just end up with the same hybrid build on every class).

I'm concerned that the upcoming Scribing system will only make this worse - as it's not resting upon the strong foundation of class identity.

Now there is an argument here for changing the way classes exist in ESO (the idea of class change tokens) - an example:
Sorc could be played as:
Dark sorceror
Daedric summoner
Lightning mage

So why should those 3 skill lines be locked to the sorceror class?
Why not have all class skill lines available to every character - but you can only have one active at any time. So you want to build a fire mage? Equip ardent flame skill line + destro staff.

Don't think above is great suggestion....but something needs to be improved r.e. class identity BEFORE (or during) the introduction of Scribing, or we'll only have a continuation of current problem of hybridization meta - people will be funnelled into a few viable options and the rest will just be RP / meme builds.

SmellyUnlimited

It all comes down to:
Pillar of Nirn, Relequen, Coral Riptide.

Every DPS class now simply puts it on and lays waste. It doesn’t matter what a class spammable is, or what minor/major buffs certain skills give you. DPS classes just drop a carve/stampede or a wall of elements and VOILA! Enemies get dead.

When the game first released, there was strong class identify. NB’s excelled in single target damage and critical strikes. Templar’s were the best healers, namely because no other class has a Breath of Life. DK’s were the best epitome of a tank. Ultigen, strong defensive passives, damage buffs for the team. And lastly, Sorc. Strong elemental area of effect DPS, highly mobile, practically a solo class in a team game.

Now I have no idea what the difference is in classes I play anymore. Insert gear, insert spammable, and do exactly what everyone else does with proc sets. Hybridization took things in an altogether worse direction I believe, as now it’s homogenized the classes even more into one amalgam of “Character.” The only outlier now is Arcanist, whose ability set is stronger exponentially than any other classes when they start out, the playstyle is incredibly easy, and they out parse other classes with 1/8 the effort.

I’m waiting for ESO 2

Vaqual

Realistically, what do you people expect? A game starts out simple and unbalanced, that is what draws players in. As soon as they have it all figured out and imbalances become clear and bothersome they start asking for adjustments. Then the cycle of releasing OP stuff and bringing it back in line starts. Players may demand specific changes, justified or not. It may only be one request at a time, one breach here, one unsolicited savagery there, but given enough time class differences diminish.

Older games used to have less generic buffs/debuffs, that often made it important/beneficial to bring every class at least once. But of course you have the downside of cluttered and complicated buff/debuff bars and you have to balance around a lot more circumstancial parameters. You reduce grouping efficiency because you now have the encounter balanced around class distributions that do not reflect the player pool and ultimately nothing of real value was added. There are pros and cons to unique and to generic buffs, maybe performance is also a factor.
I have always liked the class design in Age of Conan (RIP). Every class felt very unique, thematically compelling and no other game has matched this level class identity for me until today. But the classes were still unbalanced af, skill trees were filled with useless noob-traps, riddled with procs, weapons were class locked and in the end the meta pigeonholed you into gear and trait choices all the same. And all of that was anyway only possible with multiple action bars, so console compatibility was not even a question.

Based in my past experiences, this has become my priority list:

1. Aesthetics and Lore: Does the skills animation/effect/theme/(even icon and name) look like something that is part of my character? Why would my mage use caltrops (how am I even bringing that many)?

2. Functionality: Can this build provide the functions I am looking for? Are the compromises I have to make compensating for the losses and shortcomings (e.g. minor vuln lost for major breach, etc.)

3. Power: How can I improve my build within the confines of my personal taste to become more competitive (classic buildcraft)?

ESO has decent options in terms of #1, but many weak designs, too. ESO is insane in terms of #2 and #3. I am quite happy with this, but also glad that they seem set to make improvements in the aesthetic department this year. I think with this mindset class identity is in an acceptable spot.

If you want to make classes more unique without harming the core aspects that make the game good you can't really do much to active class skills, since they are directly competing with shared skills. That is fine, the system is good, but it generates some overlap by default. The only real way would be to overload class passives. Add some minor, maybe stacking, damage procs (e.g. like Psijic orbs, but for class interactions) and permanent group wide passives. There are options, but those are probably not so exciting to most players.

Of course class mechanics can be reworked and introduced at will, but they will always clash with the non-class skills and sets. And as long as people insist on playing with controllers there won't be a meaningful way for expanding class complexity simply because there are not enough buttons.

tldr: Want cool unique class features? It is going to be busted. Want balance? It is going to be less exciting. You make the bed (very slowly), you lie in it (for a long time).

Woodenplank

derpy_mushroom wrote: »

Woodenplank wrote: »

[*] Sorcerer

• This is our Pet Class. A Sorcerer is committing horrible self-nerf by not including Class pets (preferably both. And the ultimate one too) in their build.
• The pets also have active abilities. One or two of which are actually useful on occasion.
• This is also our Mobility Class. It is integral to the Sorcerer play-style that they can run away from all the fights they'll never win.

Sorcerer shouldn't be pigeonholed into the Pet Class niche (although I might be biased from when I began the game) but it's the Storm Mage class too. There used to be great diversity in in the fact that Sorcerer could do well both with pets and without them, and many of us ran the class without pets because of this, we want Non-pet back too.

Sorcerer should be the master of magic, with or without pets, much like how Templar was THE healer or DK is THE Heavy Knight. The fact that we're so gimped without pets is a miserable experience, especially considering we can make use of more of the Sorcerer's abilities when we don't have 4 slots filled by pets.

As a disclaimer, I didn't mean to say those were desirable class identities, or an ideal to strive for. This is my interpretation of what's going on with the class right now - I'm worried it came across otherwise.

Because right now I feel that Sorcerers boil down to just that... Double pets and Daedric Prey for DPS, Streaks and Expedition buffs for PVP

merpins

Woodenplank wrote: »

Imagine someone picks Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning, and Grave Lord themes as you suggest.
Well imagine they use Bear Guardian Ultimate, grab a Skeletal Archer from back-bar, slot both Sorcerer pets, pop Blastbones and then throws on Daedric Prey for +45% damage from all those skills - most of which were balanced without Daedric Prey in mind. And I think it would be rather overpowered (guessing).

So how do the devs react? Do we nerf the Bear Companion? Heck no, that would ruin it for all the poor sods that just wanted to play a druid type with a single animal companion.
Do we nerf Daedric Prey? Hopefully not; that would trash the whole daedric summoning theme.
Do we nerf Blast Bones and Skeletal Archer? Ya' kiddin' me?

The compartmentalization of having distinct classes gives, I think, a greater measure of control. If Sorcerers are overperforming, you can just nerf the Sorcs without touching anyone else.
(And since ZOS seems to love the idea of nerfing Sorcs, I guess it's a good thing that it's at least happening in a vacuum:D )

If a skill line is overperforming, you can just nerf a skill line in this concept, rather than a whole class. By nerfing a skill or two, it doesn't effect a whole class, but just a single skill line choice.

With my example, and your rebuttle, here's the probable correct course of action; buff the daedra pets, nerf daedric prey. If prey is causing problems with skill lines not built for it, then it shouldn't be as huge of a buff. But at the same time, the daedric pets are built around it, so they should have proportional buffs. Prey used to be a 20% buff, but was buffed after a lot of pet nerfs. Ergo, buff the daedra pets up by 25%, nerf prey down to 10-20%.

As I mentioned, at first there would be a lot of balancing needed. Unseen combinations the devs didn't think of during the creation of the skill lines would need to be balanced properly. They'd pop up, and there would be quite a few I'd imagine if this was implemented. But it would be the same as if they implemented any major change like this; it would introduce a phase of balance patches to make it stable, and then it would be easier to balance thereafter.

There would be no need to hammer a class into being bad, as currently happens too often. They might hammer some skill lines into being bad, but that's less detrimental than the current system where it effects a whole class.

Woodenplank

merpins wrote: »

There would be no need to hammer a class into being bad, as currently happens too often. They might hammer some skill lines into being bad, but that's less detrimental than the current system where it effects a whole class.

When I said "Nerf Sorc" I didn't mean that overperforming pets should result in a Class-wide nerfhammer. I just meant that nerfing an overperforming Sorcerer skill would only be a Sorcerer nerf (and then, only some Sorcerer builds), which would not affect other classes.
Sorry for not being clearer.

merpins wrote: »

If a skill line is overperforming, you can just nerf a skill line in this concept, rather than a whole class. By nerfing a skill or two, it doesn't effect a whole class, but just a single skill line choice.

With my example, and your rebuttle, here's the probable correct course of action; buff the daedra pets, nerf daedric prey. If prey is causing problems with skill lines not built for it, then it shouldn't be as huge of a buff. But at the same time, the daedric pets are built around it, so they should have proportional buffs. Prey used to be a 20% buff, but was buffed after a lot of pet nerfs. Ergo, buff the daedra pets up by 25%, nerf prey down to 10-20%.

As I mentioned, at first there would be a lot of balancing needed. Unseen combinations the devs didn't think of during the creation of the skill lines would need to be balanced properly. They'd pop up, and there would be quite a few I'd imagine if this was implemented. But it would be the same as if they implemented any major change like this; it would introduce a phase of balance patches to make it stable, and then it would be easier to balance thereafter.

I see your point, I do, and I'll admit that my "rebuttle" was a bit of a strawman.
And indeed the sheer number of combinations (just going by 3x Class Skill lines, we have 3^7 = 2187 combinations).

However I fear that game is just too meta-focused. I know that's a personal choice, and for a lot of people the variety will just be a nice RPG element.
But for endgame Trials and optimization? Imagine how many gear set combinations exist in the game. Surely several thousand. And how many of those are used? Well... Relequen and Pillar and maybe Deadly and Whorl cover like 90% of them.

I'm just afraid that allowing any skill line combination will foster a monoculture of optimization. Look what hybridization changes did; on paper allowing Stam/Mag builds to benefit from all the same sets should open up more gear combinations, but the reality is that people quickly narrowed down the optimal set combinations, and now everyone uses the same stuff.

moderatelyfatman

Regarding class identity, which skill is better: the class skill or the generic one?
I really don't understand the logic behind this.

Turtle_Bot

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Regarding class identity, which skill is better: the class skill or the generic one?
I really don't understand the logic behind this.

Elusive mist is better than ball of lightning.

The major advantages of mist over ball are the secondary effects and passives that the skill procs and the significantly reduced base cost of the ability.

Mist gives:
Major Evasion (20% AoE mitigation)
Major expedition (30% movement speed)
+300 weapon/spell damage from strike from shadows passive
Better at blocking quick bursts of multiple projectiles
33% cheaper to cast
Harder to master, but has higher skill ceiling

Ball gives:
Snare immunity (only 2 seconds though other abilities give 4+ of this)
Better at blocking random once off projectiles
easier to learn how to use effectively

Streak (other morph of ball) is better than both due to its stun, but yeah, BoL needs some improvements.

moderatelyfatman

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Regarding class identity, which skill is better: the class skill or the generic one?


Elusive mist is better than ball of lightning.

The major advantages of mist over ball are the secondary effects and passives that the skill procs and the significantly reduced base cost of the ability.

Mist gives:
Major Evasion (20% AoE mitigation)
Major expedition (30% movement speed)
+300 weapon/spell damage from strike from shadows passive
Better at blocking quick bursts of multiple projectiles
33% cheaper to cast
Harder to master, but has higher skill ceiling

Ball gives:
Snare immunity (only 2 seconds though other abilities give 4+ of this)
Better at blocking random once off projectiles
easier to learn how to use effectively

Streak (other morph of ball) is better than both due to its stun, but yeah, BoL needs some improvements.

And this is why I have no idea why they did this. It like having Silver Leash cost less and do more than DK chains or making Warden heals do less than Echoing Vigor.
At this stage there isn't much point playing sorc when one of your main strengths is gone.
Class identity is essential for replayability and long term survival of this game. Otherwise there will be a revolving door of new players who get bored with the game after a few months and then move on to the next shiny new thing.

SkaraMinoc

Woodenplank wrote: »

[*] Templar

• This is the official Holy Vampire class since Jabs animation now uses the Nighthollow staff.

[/list]

Fixed that for you.

Treeshka

Woodenplank wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

Class identity is basically what your class can bring to table as buffs.

Nightblade and Sorcerer giving Minor Savagery and Prophecy. Sorcerer also giving Major Berserk to everyone in your group provided that they are in range. Arcanist giving Minor Evasion. Warden giving Minor Toughness. Templar and Dragonknight giving Minor Sorcery and Brutality.

Necro giving Major Vulnerability to foes but why they added other sets for this buff is still unknown for me, as it hits the class identity most. But they are good for Elemental Catalyst. Commonly used buff set for raids.

What about solo PVE and how you go about that? What about PVP? There are other considerations to this than just optimizing Trial Groups.

I do not think it really matters for what you choose to slot as skills or gear for solo gameplay. Majority of the solo content is quests and they are fairly easy to complete. So in this context you can actually run whichever weapon you choose, and create your own class theme with the available tools and still success. I personally found this diverse enough for me while doing Cadwell Silver and Cadwell Gold on alt characters.

There are some outliers for solo content of course. Players might want to do solo arenas or solo Infinite Archive. If they want to be most optimized, they have to giveaway from their desired class theme a bit.

For the other area you mentioned. It is the area where a player must be playing the number game, which means choosing the most optimal setups to be successful which often contradicts with class identity. Every class wearing same item and using same pressure skills, and filling the rest with their class kit.

There are many threads about this meta already. I personally crafted those sets to use them on alts to grind tier one rewards.

But for a ball group it is somewhat same as optimizing trial groups though. Even if Arcanist becomes absolute worst they would still desire one for the Minor Evasion passive.

Luckylancer

Class identitiy is mostly dead as all skills and classes became reskins of each other. I enjoy cheese beam on my stamplar a lot but I would sacrifice it for better class identity.

Hottytotz wrote: »

On the opposite side you have supposed classes like necromancy who have a "DOT" damage passive LOL. Yet blastbones does a higher percentage of their damage than most classes spammables.

Blastbones is a secret DoT enable skill. Dots takes ages to wear off and balanced around that these days. You need 20 skill slots to cast one after another for full 20 dot skills for example.

What blastbones do is filling the rotation. It must be every 3rd skill. thakns to it necromancer can play without a spammable as all you gonna cast will be dots. Great design if you ask me.