Why Players Avoid Werewolf and Werewolf Behemoth (Regarding PvE, PvP, and the Endless Archive)

Erickson9610

Werewolf Transformation (in PvE and PvP) and Bestial Transformation (in the Endless Archive) are both Transformation abilities which grant you a special skill bar for the duration. Endless Archive scorepushers avoid picking up the third Vision that would unlock the Bestial Transformation Verse, and it's advised in both PvE and PvP to avoid using Werewolf Transformation at all. Players actively avoid these Transformation abilities, and in this thread, I would like to explore potential reasons for why this is.


Firstly, both Werewolf and Werewolf Behemoth replace your ability bar with a predetermined, much smaller subset of skills. Given that players pick and choose favorable skills from their unlocked skill lines to use in their builds, transforming into either of these lycanthrope forms takes away access to necessary skills. This can cause issues in various areas:

• In PvE, where you may need a ranged weapon, a heal over time, and the ability to bar swap or crouch
• In PvP, where you may need a snare and negative effect purge, a heal over time, and an Ultimate to cast
• In the Endless Archive, where you may need a negative effect purge, damage shields, and some form of mitigation

Players do not choose either of these Transformations because of the lack of build options within either form. Every skill line (isolated on its own) has shortcomings, which is why players mix and match better skills from various skill lines.

To put this into perspective, imagine trying to make a build using only Undaunted skills, without being able to use skills from other skill lines. By doing so, you give up access to most of your class passives, your useful abilities in other skill lines, and you must cleverly rely on set bonuses to attempt to reach the same capability as an unrestricted player. Especially with the case of building with only Undaunted skills, you lack an Ultimate ability in that skill line, which is just like how Werewolf plays. You cannot slot your own skills to make up for Werewolf or Werewolf Behemoth's shortcomings.


Secondly, Werewolf and Werewolf Behemoth both have impaired functionality. Werewolf cannot:

• Crouch/Sneak
• Bar Swap
• Utilize Weapon Passives

And Werewolf Behemoth cannot:

• Crouch/Sneak
• Bar Swap
• Utilize Weapon Passives
• Utilize Weapon Enchantments
• Heal from Ring of the Pale Order or Reaving Blows
• Benefit from Shapeshifter's Chain

Compared to other Transformation abilities (such as Bone Goliath, Blood Scion, Ice Avatar, and Iron Atronach) the Werewolf and Werewolf Behemoth Transformation abilities break basic functionality of some systems. Conversely, the other Transformation abilities instead function as direct upgrades to the existing human builds that players use, rather than as replacements for them. This is evidenced by how the other Transformation abilities typically just apply a polymorph to the player and increase their size, in addition to granting beneficial effects. Players affected by any of the other Transformation abilities can play effectively the same as they did before transforming; they are not inhibited in any way.


Finally, it all boils down to this: if Werewolf or Werewolf Behemoth were somehow better than (or at least comparable to) any possible build that one could make with any of the existing skill lines, then in the end, these Transformation abilities would be preferable to use. However, they are not, and it will likely never happen. That would require that Werewolf and Werewolf Behemoth's curated toolkit would have any possible utility that a regular build could find from other skill lines, or that they would be allowed to slot regular skills like a regular class.

The only way to truly balance Werewolf and Werewolf Behemoth is to take away their "class identity" — the special skill line they are forced to use. But if Werewolf and Werewolf Behemoth could slot any skill from any skill line, then how many of their unique skills would players still use? To use the Undaunted-only build analogy from earlier, now we're supposing that players have the audacity to slot an Ultimate from the Fighters Guild or Mages Guild, and a couple skills from the Assault and Support skill lines. The "class identity" of the Undaunted-only build is ruined, because now there are non-Undaunted skills in this build that was thematically meant to be Undaunted-only. To bring the analogy back, slotting other skills on your Werewolf bar would be like having a Psijic Order Werewolf, using Psijic Order skills alongside Werewolf skills, instead of being just a Psijic by day and then becoming just a Werewolf by night.



To summarize this whole post: regular builds in this game utilize the best skills from any available skill line; Werewolf and Werewolf Behemoth cannot do so, and so players avoid them. The "class identity" of Werewolf and Werewolf Behemoth is enforced to the utmost degree (by disallowing other skills to be slotted), but conversely, they suffer because their skills currently aren't good enough for every situation (especially in PvE, PvP, and in the Endless Archive) to justify the lack of build freedom with them.

LunaFlora

i tend to only use the bestial transformation for boss fights.
it's especially useful for Tho'at and bosses like Rakkhat.

it would be pretty nice if we got a purify effect added to one of the Werewolf skills,
perhaps to Hircine's Bounty as that's our heal skill.

Soarora

There is one location where werewolf behemoth is absolutely a benefit: Stone Garden, where the transformation comes from. You’re forced to use it at the end boss but using the ones in the hallways is important for the trifecta. Changing werewolf behemoth in any way that would affect SG is a bad idea to me.
That said, the abilities do feel weird to use outside of the context of Stone Garden. The ult, for instance, is used to res and refresh ability timers for group members. Feels completely pointless to use in EA.

CP5

Back when werewolves couldn't CC break, or rez, or even dodge if memory serves... But for sure, having to build to make the werewolf powerful also makes your normal form lopsided, and you're normally better off just mimicking the werewolf play style with better flexibility and power.

AlterBlika

I got bestial transformation in EA, picked it because I though it'd be something cool. It locked me out of using my abilities and I died as a result. It's just trash. It should be just bonuses, not a different bar with unique skills

jaws343

I actively grab Bestial in EA. It one hits enemies in ARC 4/5/6 still and the heavy attack is insanely strong. And as long as you are doing damage, you are getting healing.

You just have to wisely choose the order and timing of skills properly. Like not using the AOE skills on single lone targets and waiting for groupings of enemies to hit them all.

Erickson9610

Soarora wrote: »

There is one location where werewolf behemoth is absolutely a benefit: Stone Garden, where the transformation comes from. You’re forced to use it at the end boss but using the ones in the hallways is important for the trifecta. Changing werewolf behemoth in any way that would affect SG is a bad idea to me.
That said, the abilities do feel weird to use outside of the context of Stone Garden. The ult, for instance, is used to res and refresh ability timers for group members. Feels completely pointless to use in EA.

You might be surprised to know that the version of Werewolf Behemoth in the Endless Archive is different from the version used in Stone Garden. For instance, here is the tooltip for Stone Garden:


And here is the equivalent skill in the Endless Archive:


These are two different versions of the same skill. Thus, you can change the Endless Archive Werewolf Behemoth without affecting the Stone Garden Werewolf Behemoth.

Soarora

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

There is one location where werewolf behemoth is absolutely a benefit: Stone Garden, where the transformation comes from. You’re forced to use it at the end boss but using the ones in the hallways is important for the trifecta. Changing werewolf behemoth in any way that would affect SG is a bad idea to me.
That said, the abilities do feel weird to use outside of the context of Stone Garden. The ult, for instance, is used to res and refresh ability timers for group members. Feels completely pointless to use in EA.

You might be surprised to know that the version of Werewolf Behemoth in the Endless Archive is different from the version used in Stone Garden. For instance, here is the tooltip for Stone Garden:


And here is the equivalent skill in the Endless Archive:


These are two different versions of the same skill. Thus, you can change the Endless Archive Werewolf Behemoth without affecting the Stone Garden Werewolf Behemoth.

Ah, awesome thanks. I never bothered to check, just assumed it was the same.

tsaescishoeshiner

I take the Werewolf Behemoth in EA every time, but I assume it would stop paying off over Arc 6/7 on certain bosses because you would need more heals.

That said, there are some good suggestions in here anyway.

runa_gate

AlterBlika wrote: »

I got bestial transformation in EA, picked it because I though it'd be something cool. It locked me out of using my abilities and I died as a result. It's just trash. It should be just bonuses, not a different bar with unique skills

This just happened to me as well. More specifically, the skillbar became empty once I used the transform's ultimate. Pressing K still showed the WW loadout, but outside of that all skill slots were blank.

I could also not light attack nor heavy attack, though oddly I could jump and bash

Necrotech_Master

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I take the Werewolf Behemoth in EA every time, but I assume it would stop paying off over Arc 6/7 on certain bosses because you would need more heals.

That said, there are some good suggestions in here anyway.

as long as you keep the number 5 skill active and are dealing dmg, you have plenty of healing

its during certain bosses where you cant dmg anything that healing becomes an issue (such as lady thorn during bat swarm phase)

Panderbander

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I take the Werewolf Behemoth in EA every time, but I assume it would stop paying off over Arc 6/7 on certain bosses because you would need more heals.

That said, there are some good suggestions in here anyway.

as long as you keep the number 5 skill active and are dealing dmg, you have plenty of healing

its during certain bosses where you cant dmg anything that healing becomes an issue (such as lady thorn during bat swarm phase)

The Behemoth heal has an up time of 12 seconds and a cooldown of 18 seconds. Six seconds of no healing in later arcs is a death sentence.

YetAnotherLinuxUser

Thats a huge intellectualized argument to explain why i won't do something i don't like.

The simple fact is I don't like. I will never use it. THere's nothing you can do to make me like it.

Have a wonderful day.

Necrotech_Master

Panderbander wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I take the Werewolf Behemoth in EA every time, but I assume it would stop paying off over Arc 6/7 on certain bosses because you would need more heals.

That said, there are some good suggestions in here anyway.

as long as you keep the number 5 skill active and are dealing dmg, you have plenty of healing

its during certain bosses where you cant dmg anything that healing becomes an issue (such as lady thorn during bat swarm phase)

The Behemoth heal has an up time of 12 seconds and a cooldown of 18 seconds. Six seconds of no healing in later arcs is a death sentence.

if its an add stage though, even later arcs can finish the entire stage in less than a minute though

usually its active for 1 wave, down while another wave is spawning, up for 2nd wave, repeat

if your running with another player, they can also provide some additional healing, but in most cases ive never really needed it

its only on some boss stages that ive had problems because of the boss doing an invulnerability phase (such as lady thorn)

LunaFlora

runa_gate wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

I got bestial transformation in EA, picked it because I though it'd be something cool. It locked me out of using my abilities and I died as a result. It's just trash. It should be just bonuses, not a different bar with unique skills

This just happened to me as well. More specifically, the skillbar became empty once I used the transform's ultimate. Pressing K still showed the WW loadout, but outside of that all skill slots were blank.

I could also not light attack nor heavy attack, though oddly I could jump and bash

that happened to me a few times and i fixed it by going to the index and back

Luckylancer

All of these walls of text are needless. WW is weak because of 1 big reason. If WW would be OP, everyone would use it and it would nerfed. This happened when WW was overtuned. Thats it. Devs dont want a dominating WW.

fix is simple. Buff the numbers. Devs do not do it. WW is suboptimal and it will remain like that.

Erickson9610

If Werewolf could use human form abilities (or conversely, if you could benefit from Werewolf passives in human form) then it would play no different from how most people play Vampire — utilizing it only for passives such as Dark Stalker and Undeath.


The point of the original post is to describe why players avoid abilities which change their skill bar. The exception is Volendrung, which is used because of its unique utility in tearing down Keep walls, but in an organized group, only specific people should pick it up. For instance, you wouldn't want your healers to pick up Volendrung, because then they will no longer be able to heal the group until they die.

There is no utility unique to Werewolf and Werewolf Behemoth that warrants a group member using it in PvE, PvP, or in the Infinite Archive. For reference, the synergy from Werewolf Behemoth's Ultimate gives allies 100% crit chance for a time, and Werewolf can give Minor Courage, a slowed Werewolf timer, and the Feeding Frenzy synergy for 50% uptime of Minor Force and Empower... that's it.


More specifically, Werewolf Behemoth can't survive in the later Arcs due to its lack of defensive power that any human form build can have. A dead damage dealer does zero damage, so a group member taking Bestial Transformation in later Arcs is going to be an inconvenience — it's not worth a few seconds of guaranteed critical strikes.

Werewolf is like Werewolf Behemoth, but worse. Minor Courage, Empower, and Minor Force are not uncommon buffs. Further, what is the point of slowing the Werewolf timer if nobody else in your group will run Werewolf?

Erickson9610

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Endless Archive scorepushers avoid picking up the third Vision that would unlock the Bestial Transformation Verse, and it's advised in both PvE and PvP to avoid using Werewolf Transformation at all.

To give tangible examples of this claim, here are two videos posted by two different ESO content creators:

https://youtu.be/Ytwr7aEdOPg?t=852

"Ferocious Support is another Vision you should never pick up. The reason is that picking up all three of Ferocious Visions will unlock the Werewolf Behemoth Transformation Verse, which is horrible and will get you killed as you won't be able to use your skills."

"Not only will it pollute the pool of Verses you can choose from, but you can also use consumables to gain random Verses, and randomly getting a Werewolf [Behemoth] Transformation Verse is a death sentence against harder enemies."

https://youtu.be/zDxnAndKPUw?t=502

"And nowadays if you want to really just be restricted to one bar . . . I would say just go Oakensoul Heavy Attack build. Why go Werewolf? [Werewolf] does not do anything at all for PvE."

"I don't see any benefit into going Werewolf as a DPS, Tank, or Healer."

"Every time someone goes Werewolf in PvP, I actually grow relieved because at that point I know they can't kill me unless they're with, like, a zerg or something. And, at that point, anything works in a zerg."

Necrotech_Master

i think its wrong for them to say avoid ferocious support, as that alone is fine adding the bleed to your heavy attack, if i were to suggest one to avoid i would say the one that boosts dmg of bleed and physical, especially if your on a mag build because the only thing that would be boosting would be ferocious support and the behemoth

you would have to pick up all 3 of the ferocious visions to even have a chance to get the behemoth

i do agree with their assessment though that it can definitely get you killed since you cannot use your own skills, and relies on dealing dmg to heal, which is not always possible on some bosses (lady thorn bat swarm is one which comes to mind), or even lady belain in later arcs

fred4

While I agree with the OP, it's really much simpler than this where the Endless Archive and dungeons, such as Stone Garden, are concerned. The concept of altering your build without your consent is vile. I detest ZOS for doing so and screwing with my muscle memory. I inhabit my characters. I know my rotations. Whoever thought messing with your skill bar is fun, at ZOS, got to have their head examined. It's ZOS' fun at the player's expense, as far as I'm concerned. This includes being turned into a watcher, a werewolf, and so on (not just in the archive). To add insult to injury, morphing is buggy and doesn't restore your character properly to this day. At the very least the visual from the Esoteric Greaves is still gone until you reslot. The worst is when you can't even rearrange your skill slots, or have time to do it, not that I want my build yanked from under my feet at all, thank you very much.

Making a role-playing game with ESO's depth of customisation, both in terms of how your character looks and how it behaves, then arbitrarily changing that for some of the content is IMO fundamentally wrong. I personally don't mind the goat so much, because of it's simplicity, but when you have to play essentially another build to reasonable proficiency, such as the watcher or a werewolf, that's where I draw the line (not least when you are grouped and the other person rushes ahead). For clarification, If I chose to play a werewolf from the beginning that would be entirely different. It's having a build and, to some degree, a different character look forced down my throat that I object to.

I'm trying to be fair here. If something like this was done in a single-player game, which tend to be fundamentally not competitive and always played in your own time without a partner, I might think stuff like this was cute and a refreshing change of pace. Not so in ESO. If you assemble the werewolf verse, you're by definition a somewhat competitive player to even get that far. It seems to me that half the crew at ZOS doesn't understand what that means. They don't understand that, if you go far in the archive, you probably understand buildcraft or you've researched a build on YouTube. They don't understand that you've probably spent time on a parse dummy to do enough damage and not be overwhelmed in the early arcs, like some new players are. It means you've put a lot of work into your character. It's no wonder most people don't want to throw that away on a build you can't run outside of the archive, you cannot test nor parse with, and that you can't (I'm assuming) rearrange the skill slots for, e.g. to best suit your muscle memory.

Erickson9610

fred4 wrote: »

For clarification, If I chose to play a werewolf from the beginning that would be entirely different. It's having a build and, to some degree, a different character look forced down my throat that I object to.

I've been thinking about what it would've been like if we had been able to have Werewolf as a Race/Class from the very beginning. It's true that such a change would go against the idea that any character can become a werewolf, but it would also mean that players could focus their characters to be werewolves first — not to be humans first and werewolves second.

It would mean that Werewolf could be given the exact same treatment as any Class in the game, including two bars, three skill lines of Class skills, the ability to sneak/crouch, the tools to be a Damage Dealer, Tank, or Healer, and access to all of the skills and passives of the non-Class skill lines. Werewolf would be treated as an equal to the other Classes in the game.

Further, being able to select a Werewolf from the beginning most likely would've lead to Werewolf being given the level of customization as the other Races. There are tons of Werewolf skins in the game, but players only get to use three of those, one for each morph (including unmorphed) of Werewolf Transformation. Werewolf would be treated as an equal to the other Races in the game.


I would love to have Werewolf play as a fully-fledged Class with the level of character customization that I could give to any other Race. Instead, ESO gives Werewolf only 5 skills (with no in-form Ultimate) and ties the appearance customization of Werewolf to the combat system.

Werewolf players are expected to live with minimal customization of appearance and skills. Why would anyone continue to play Werewolf, knowing the rest of the game has so much more to offer?

fred4

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Werewolf players are expected to live with minimal customization of appearance and skills. Why would anyone continue to play Werewolf, knowing the rest of the game has so much more to offer?

I know at least one person who role-plays a werewolf. They've always been a werewolf in PvP.

Why would anyone do it? To play a one bar build other than a heavy-attack sorc, I guess.

Why would anyone do it in the archive? I've been with a werewolf who did good damage, there, at least in the early arcs. I've been speculating that running a werewolf for DPS and falling back on a tanky base-character when Gothmau appears might be a viable option. It might even be a great option to deal with the duality of the archive, e.g. the demand to deal damage while occasionally having to be really tanky.

I can see you're a werewolf fan and would, therefore, like it to be a fully-fledged class. That's fair, though one might argue that werewolf being a temporary transformation is lore-friendly. I can see how ZOS chose to make it an ultimate.

Can you remind me what you lose as a werewolf? It's just the weapon skill line buffs, right? Class passives, armor passives and armor set procs intact? Is the best werewolf class still a stamsorc?

Erickson9610

fred4 wrote: »

Can you remind me what you lose as a werewolf? It's just the weapon skill line buffs, right? Class passives, armor passives and armor set procs intact? Is the best werewolf class still a stamsorc?

Werewolf loses the following:

• The ability to crouch/sneak.
• The ability to bar swap (and so ZOS also denies Werewolf the "while slotted on either bar" buffs).
• The ability to slot any skill from any skill line.
• An in-form Ultimate ability to cast.
• Weapon passives, including Warden's Piercing Cold passive which gives 12% damage done when wielding a Frost Staff. Werewolves only receive the 2% damage done from this passive, even if they have a Frost Staff equipped.
• Any Class, World, Guild, Alliance War, etc. passive that requires a skill to be slotted or which augments a skill which cannot be used in Werewolf form.
  • This means that Werewolf cannot proc their Class Minor buff in most cases (with Maturation being the exception, as it does not require a Warden heal specifically to proc).
  • This also means that some Classes make for better werewolves than others — surprisingly, Templar Werewolf outclasses Warden Werewolf in terms of how many passives are compatible in Werewolf form. "Holy" werewolves are better than "Nature" werewolves.
• All Class Sets from the Infinite Archive. None of them can be procced with Werewolf's toolkit.

There are many, many more issues with how the Werewolf skill line itself is balanced, but this is just a list of what Werewolf misses out on.


In PvE, Templar Werewolf is slightly better than Sorcerer Werewolf in longer fights, due to the Burning Light passive being changed to not require Aedric Spear abilities, whereas Sorcerer Werewolf is slightly better in shorter fights due to the Amplitude passive. However, the two are very close in terms of damage output.

Templar Werewolves are unique in that since the Burning Light proc counts as Class damage, Templar Werewolf is the only Werewolf Class that is able to use sets like Overwhelming Surge which proc off of dealing Class damage.

Necrotech_Master

the one character i actually run as a WW is a stam warden

i went with orc to get some of the racial passives (like healing when dealing dmg), warden (because you do still get minor toughness using the WW heal, i havent factored in other passives but the minor toughness actually makes a big difference)

and i slotted oakensoul, which while does have some overlapping buffs, also fills in a few other buffs a WW does not have, and the empower buff actually makes a WW berserker heavy attack pretty nasty as it has splash dmg (WW can also guarantee apply off-balance with the roar, that also debuffs the target with breach, which makes the heavy attack hit even harder, ive seen up to 40k HA crits with the WW and im not using any other HA sets)

with oaken, having the minor heroism all the time makes it so that if i do lose WW, i can get back into WW form faster by generating ulti faster

Erickson9610

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the one character i actually run as a WW is a stam warden

i went with orc to get some of the racial passives (like healing when dealing dmg), warden (because you do still get minor toughness using the WW heal, i havent factored in other passives but the minor toughness actually makes a big difference

Warden Werewolf is great when solo, but if you have a Warden healer in your group, then the Maturation passive is redundant. Plus, you aren't able to proc Maturation on your allies in Werewolf form without the use of some healing proc set — I really wish Hircine's Bounty and its morphs had the ability to crossheal, akin to how Polar Wind also scales off Maximum Health and heals a second target.

Necrotech_Master

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the one character i actually run as a WW is a stam warden

i went with orc to get some of the racial passives (like healing when dealing dmg), warden (because you do still get minor toughness using the WW heal, i havent factored in other passives but the minor toughness actually makes a big difference

Warden Werewolf is great when solo, but if you have a Warden healer in your group, then the Maturation passive is redundant. Plus, you aren't able to proc Maturation on your allies in Werewolf form without the use of some healing proc set — I really wish Hircine's Bounty and its morphs had the ability to crossheal, akin to how Polar Wind also scales off Maximum Health and heals a second target.

i usually do run solo, or with no other warden, as i mainly run this character in IC lol

IZZEFlameLash

There's absolutely 0 benefit while in human form. And benefits are rather underwhelming when transformed with the loss of extra bar where you are forced to play 1 bar without all the benefits that Oakensoul provides. Even 1 bar Oaken builds are pretty underwhelming compared to 2 bars if you are able to do bar swaps rather reliably or you are not impaired in the physical side. So forced 1 bar play without all those buffs, you are basically signing up to be in disadvantage unless you just like WW enough to look past that.

fred4

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

There's absolutely 0 benefit while in human form.

Errr, +15% stam regen.

IZZEFlameLash

fred4 wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

There's absolutely 0 benefit while in human form.

Errr, +15% stam regen.

Funnily, to even get that, requires ult to be slotted lol. And it is nothing compared to like, no movement speed penalty in sneak/faster entering time for sneak, 300 wd/sd for coming out of stealth/mist, the infamous Undeath passive and sprint cost reduction by 25% + invisibility.

code65536

jaws343 wrote: »

I actively grab Bestial in EA. It one hits enemies in ARC 4/5/6 still and the heavy attack is insanely strong. And as long as you are doing damage, you are getting healing.

You just have to wisely choose the order and timing of skills properly. Like not using the AOE skills on single lone targets and waiting for groupings of enemies to hit them all.

I used to seek out the WW transform in the Archive, first because I was curious about what it did, and then because I loved it; I had a lot of fun with it in Stone Garden, and using it in the Archive was a blast.

Until it got me killed.

For early and mid arcs, it's fine and a really a ton of fun, even for a tank (the first skill is a taunt).

But in later arcs, the transform became a huge liability for me as a tank. I'm not talking about the loss of the magma cheese (since I tank the Archive on a cryptcanon NB and not a DK), but rather the loss of block mitigation. While you can block after transformation, you lose the extra block mitigation from sword-and-shield or ice staff, and with how hard things hit in the late arcs, losing that extra block mitigation is a death sentence.

Elyu

As I've commented on other threads, and is a very similar sentiment to that expressed by the OP:

Vamp and WW should both operate as optional skill lines that you can mix and match with other skill lines, no different to any other skill line in game - with the possible exception of being 'cursed' with either of them would leave you slightly vulnerable (as vamp already has) and changes the 'flavour' of other skills (e.g. sorc summons a bat companion instead of a winged twilight).

But yes, you shouldn't have to build around that 1 skill line in order to create a useful build, rather there should be several ways to utilise the skill line in new and interesting ways.