How long until Arcanist Nerfs???

Solariken

Arcanist is fantastic in PvE, but IMO pretty average in PvP.

In PvP there are many stronger specs, namely DK and NB and to a lesser extent Sorc if running the current meta build.

The book laser can hit very hard, but it's extremely unreliable; most people don't take more than one or two ticks of the whole channel, whether because they move around or just end it with a stun. The targeting is awful against moving targets (probably on purpose).

The shields are very strong like @React said, HOWEVER, if Undeath gets nerfed like it should I think Arcanist survivability will fall into balance.

Billium813

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink deduff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Just FYI, I'm not discussing PvP. I know there is some cross discussion here, so its fine. My experience with Arcanist in PvP is that I get stun locked and can't break free and destroyed... that might not be current Arcanist, idk.

For PvE, I feel like we've been here before with Templar. When Jabs is too strong, it's all Templar does and all it needs. They nerf Jabs and the community cries out, the death of the class is cried from the mountain tops. But they do attempt to distribute that power elsewhere. I just see similarities in both Jabs and Fatecarver, in Arcanist and Templar. Radiant Destruction is another similarity. There's been much call for redistributing the power of that Skill elsewhere in Templars kit and I would welcome the same for Fatecarver.

I say it’s okay if Arcanist is easier to do dps on, that helps the game. There is nothing wrong with something being easier as I don’t see how it affects the game in a bad way.

You seem to agree that Arcanist is far easier to play but feel that there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, you seem to believe it would be better if all classes were easier to play. I can certainly respect that it's important for new players to have accessible paths into the game, but I disagree that those paths should also be valid for mid and late game.

On that, I find we are at an impasse; I disagree wholeheartedly with the direction of simplifying class kits. If you truly view easier gameplay to be better for the overall game, then I won't be able to convince you otherwise.

OtarTheMad

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink deduff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Just FYI, I'm not discussing PvP. I know there is some cross discussion here, so its fine. My experience with Arcanist in PvP is that I get stun locked and can't break free and destroyed... that might not be current Arcanist, idk.

For PvE, I feel like we've been here before with Templar. When Jabs is too strong, it's all Templar does and all it needs. They nerf Jabs and the community cries out, the death of the class is cried from the mountain tops. But they do attempt to distribute that power elsewhere. I just see similarities in both Jabs and Fatecarver, in Arcanist and Templar. Radiant Destruction is another similarity. There's been much call for redistributing the power of that Skill elsewhere in Templars kit and I would welcome the same for Fatecarver.

I say it’s okay if Arcanist is easier to do dps on, that helps the game. There is nothing wrong with something being easier as I don’t see how it affects the game in a bad way.

You seem to agree that Arcanist is far easier to play but feel that there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, you seem to believe it would be better if all classes were easier to play. I can certainly respect that it's important for new players to have accessible paths into the game, but I disagree that those paths should also be valid for mid and late game.

On that, I find we are at an impasse; I disagree wholeheartedly with the direction of simplifying class kits. If you truly view easier gameplay to be better for the overall game, then I won't be able to convince you otherwise.

I never said all classes I just said Arcanist being easier is okay. I feel that variety is good, options are good. Just like FlameLash said, it’s been good to have an easier option with Arcanist. I am one of those people that I actually feel more comfortable now going into a group dungeon with my Arcanist. I can’t do those complex, tight rotations and pay attention to mechanics and know where I should be standing and other stuff. I can’t focus on all that, but a simple rotation that allows me to get passable dps (I can hit 32k on a 3M dummy) makes me feel more comfortable.

There is also nothing wrong with liking complex rotations and any of that stuff. The more variety we have in the game the healthier it is so that all styles, all play types are accounted for. If not all then a lot of them.

IZZEFlameLash

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink deduff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Just FYI, I'm not discussing PvP. I know there is some cross discussion here, so its fine. My experience with Arcanist in PvP is that I get stun locked and can't break free and destroyed... that might not be current Arcanist, idk.

For PvE, I feel like we've been here before with Templar. When Jabs is too strong, it's all Templar does and all it needs. They nerf Jabs and the community cries out, the death of the class is cried from the mountain tops. But they do attempt to distribute that power elsewhere. I just see similarities in both Jabs and Fatecarver, in Arcanist and Templar. Radiant Destruction is another similarity. There's been much call for redistributing the power of that Skill elsewhere in Templars kit and I would welcome the same for Fatecarver.

I say it’s okay if Arcanist is easier to do dps on, that helps the game. There is nothing wrong with something being easier as I don’t see how it affects the game in a bad way.

You seem to agree that Arcanist is far easier to play but feel that there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, you seem to believe it would be better if all classes were easier to play. I can certainly respect that it's important for new players to have accessible paths into the game, but I disagree that those paths should also be valid for mid and late game.

On that, I find we are at an impasse; I disagree wholeheartedly with the direction of simplifying class kits. If you truly view easier gameplay to be better for the overall game, then I won't be able to convince you otherwise.

Easier rotation doesn't necessarily mean automatic success in mid or late game. There are plenty of people that still die in normal base game dungeons because they are so ignorant of the mechanics or too used to someone like me carrying them (and I am not a top player in any form).

Brakkish

Brakkish wrote: »

I'm more concerned with the couple of deaths you had. WTH happened?? You must have got knocked off a ledge or mouse died.

React wrote: »

So you agree then, the class is nearly unkillable. Great.

Of course I agree; I play arc tank in BGs - it IS unkillable. Where I disagree is that anything needs to be done about it. I've played along side arcs that were struggling - I'm sure they were thinking Arc needs a boost. - The right tool in the right hands will get the job done, the right tool in the wrong hands will lead to failure. Enjoying being elite. Results aren't typical for everyone

Added flavor to this thread, a video demonstrating Arc EZ mode. Look at kills and deaths for everyone at the end. Was a high death, high dps, high kill match for nearly everyone, with one standalone - zero deaths. Again for the argument, it depends on who is using the tool, as there were several other arcs in that vid.

Those who don't care to watch all the fun, you can skip to 5:50 for a quick peek at Arc fun, even shrugging off Tide King's Gaze as if I was being hit with green pool noodles, simultaneously absorbing all damage from the 1vs4 I was in at that moment. (I rarely get sweaty even 1vs6-8)
At 9:00 everyone in the match has just given up the idea of killing me; and I'm left to cap flags freely, take a picnic in the middle, knit some socks or whatever.
At 13:43 a tip of the hat from another Arc on the opposing team. Maybe the best counter to Arc, is another Arc - balance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V35gsYgQrxM

Billium813

Brakkish wrote: »

Brakkish wrote: »

I'm more concerned with the couple of deaths you had. WTH happened?? You must have got knocked off a ledge or mouse died.

React wrote: »

So you agree then, the class is nearly unkillable. Great.

Of course I agree; I play arc tank in BGs - it IS unkillable. Where I disagree is that anything needs to be done about it. ... Enjoying being elite.

You can't have a balance discussion with players that just want to be OP, or want to press 2 buttons and kill everything.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink deduff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Just FYI, I'm not discussing PvP. I know there is some cross discussion here, so its fine. My experience with Arcanist in PvP is that I get stun locked and can't break free and destroyed... that might not be current Arcanist, idk.

For PvE, I feel like we've been here before with Templar. When Jabs is too strong, it's all Templar does and all it needs. They nerf Jabs and the community cries out, the death of the class is cried from the mountain tops. But they do attempt to distribute that power elsewhere. I just see similarities in both Jabs and Fatecarver, in Arcanist and Templar. Radiant Destruction is another similarity. There's been much call for redistributing the power of that Skill elsewhere in Templars kit and I would welcome the same for Fatecarver.

I say it’s okay if Arcanist is easier to do dps on, that helps the game. There is nothing wrong with something being easier as I don’t see how it affects the game in a bad way.

You seem to agree that Arcanist is far easier to play but feel that there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, you seem to believe it would be better if all classes were easier to play. I can certainly respect that it's important for new players to have accessible paths into the game, but I disagree that those paths should also be valid for mid and late game.

On that, I find we are at an impasse; I disagree wholeheartedly with the direction of simplifying class kits. If you truly view easier gameplay to be better for the overall game, then I won't be able to convince you otherwise.

I am one of those people that I actually feel more comfortable now going into a group dungeon with my Arcanist. I can’t do those complex, tight rotations and pay attention to mechanics and know where I should be standing and other stuff. I can’t focus on all that, but a simple rotation that allows me to get passable dps (I can hit 32k on a 3M dummy) makes me feel more comfortable.

I know we are all 85 years old, with arthritis in our hands and onset dementia, but I'm so tired of accessibility being used as an argument. It's laughably easy to do the bare minimum DPS in this game. The only thing preventing 99% of players from joining content is their own assumed inadequacies.

I call this the "Turtle mentality" and it's so prevalent in players. I've seen this so many times with guildies and friends too. They say they can't do vet content cause their DPS isnt good, or that they are scared they won't be able to do it, or they struggle with normal dungeons. Then, they get in there with craftable sets and end up saying "wow, that was easier then I thought it would be!". You don't need to be OP to complete content. You don't need to turtle until you are OP for the content. Get in there, get experience, and start learning.

OtarTheMad

Billium813 wrote: »

Brakkish wrote: »

Brakkish wrote: »

I'm more concerned with the couple of deaths you had. WTH happened?? You must have got knocked off a ledge or mouse died.

React wrote: »

So you agree then, the class is nearly unkillable. Great.

Of course I agree; I play arc tank in BGs - it IS unkillable. Where I disagree is that anything needs to be done about it. ... Enjoying being elite.

You can't have a balance discussion with players that just want to be OP, or want to press 2 buttons and kill everything.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink deduff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Just FYI, I'm not discussing PvP. I know there is some cross discussion here, so its fine. My experience with Arcanist in PvP is that I get stun locked and can't break free and destroyed... that might not be current Arcanist, idk.

For PvE, I feel like we've been here before with Templar. When Jabs is too strong, it's all Templar does and all it needs. They nerf Jabs and the community cries out, the death of the class is cried from the mountain tops. But they do attempt to distribute that power elsewhere. I just see similarities in both Jabs and Fatecarver, in Arcanist and Templar. Radiant Destruction is another similarity. There's been much call for redistributing the power of that Skill elsewhere in Templars kit and I would welcome the same for Fatecarver.

I say it’s okay if Arcanist is easier to do dps on, that helps the game. There is nothing wrong with something being easier as I don’t see how it affects the game in a bad way.

You seem to agree that Arcanist is far easier to play but feel that there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, you seem to believe it would be better if all classes were easier to play. I can certainly respect that it's important for new players to have accessible paths into the game, but I disagree that those paths should also be valid for mid and late game.

On that, I find we are at an impasse; I disagree wholeheartedly with the direction of simplifying class kits. If you truly view easier gameplay to be better for the overall game, then I won't be able to convince you otherwise.

I am one of those people that I actually feel more comfortable now going into a group dungeon with my Arcanist. I can’t do those complex, tight rotations and pay attention to mechanics and know where I should be standing and other stuff. I can’t focus on all that, but a simple rotation that allows me to get passable dps (I can hit 32k on a 3M dummy) makes me feel more comfortable.

I know we are all 85 years old, with arthritis in our hands and onset dementia, but I'm so tired of accessibility being used as an argument. It's laughably easy to do the bare minimum DPS in this game. The only thing preventing 99% of players from joining content is their own assumed inadequacies.

I call this the "Turtle mentality" and it's so prevalent in players. I've seen this so many times with guildies and friends too. They say they can't do vet content cause their DPS isnt good, or that they are scared they won't be able to do it, or they struggle with normal dungeons. Then, they get in there with craftable sets and end up saying "wow, that was easier then I thought it would be!". You don't need to be OP to complete content. You don't need to turtle until you are OP for the content. Get in there, get experience, and start learning.

Don’t sit there and pretend that you know why I have been treated like garbage over the years in this game. Like I said, I can’t pay attention to it all. Someone will explain the mechanics and I will just immediately forget what they said 10 seconds later, I look around when I am in a dungeon, I get lost in thought mid fight and just completely forget where I am supposed to be standing (which leads to wipes). I am not an old person, just have a weird brain. I have been kicked from dungeons in the past and have been called things that you can’t even really say irl.

When I played with some guildies who understood all that we usually do just fine. I’ve done all the base game dungeons and some DLC dungeons on normal but they’ve since taken a break. Before Arcanist landed I basically quit the game because it just was not fun anymore. PvP was a mess and PvE group dungeons were just toxic. So I would finish the zone, all the quests, objectives etc and then never log in again until the next chapter dropped. Arcanist makes me feel comfortable enough to go into a group dungeon and feel like I’ll be fine.

Variety is good.

Billium813

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Brakkish wrote: »

Brakkish wrote: »

I'm more concerned with the couple of deaths you had. WTH happened?? You must have got knocked off a ledge or mouse died.

React wrote: »

So you agree then, the class is nearly unkillable. Great.

Of course I agree; I play arc tank in BGs - it IS unkillable. Where I disagree is that anything needs to be done about it. ... Enjoying being elite.

You can't have a balance discussion with players that just want to be OP, or want to press 2 buttons and kill everything.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink deduff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Just FYI, I'm not discussing PvP. I know there is some cross discussion here, so its fine. My experience with Arcanist in PvP is that I get stun locked and can't break free and destroyed... that might not be current Arcanist, idk.

For PvE, I feel like we've been here before with Templar. When Jabs is too strong, it's all Templar does and all it needs. They nerf Jabs and the community cries out, the death of the class is cried from the mountain tops. But they do attempt to distribute that power elsewhere. I just see similarities in both Jabs and Fatecarver, in Arcanist and Templar. Radiant Destruction is another similarity. There's been much call for redistributing the power of that Skill elsewhere in Templars kit and I would welcome the same for Fatecarver.

I say it’s okay if Arcanist is easier to do dps on, that helps the game. There is nothing wrong with something being easier as I don’t see how it affects the game in a bad way.

You seem to agree that Arcanist is far easier to play but feel that there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, you seem to believe it would be better if all classes were easier to play. I can certainly respect that it's important for new players to have accessible paths into the game, but I disagree that those paths should also be valid for mid and late game.

On that, I find we are at an impasse; I disagree wholeheartedly with the direction of simplifying class kits. If you truly view easier gameplay to be better for the overall game, then I won't be able to convince you otherwise.

I am one of those people that I actually feel more comfortable now going into a group dungeon with my Arcanist. I can’t do those complex, tight rotations and pay attention to mechanics and know where I should be standing and other stuff. I can’t focus on all that, but a simple rotation that allows me to get passable dps (I can hit 32k on a 3M dummy) makes me feel more comfortable.

I know we are all 85 years old, with arthritis in our hands and onset dementia, but I'm so tired of accessibility being used as an argument. It's laughably easy to do the bare minimum DPS in this game. The only thing preventing 99% of players from joining content is their own assumed inadequacies.

I call this the "Turtle mentality" and it's so prevalent in players. I've seen this so many times with guildies and friends too. They say they can't do vet content cause their DPS isnt good, or that they are scared they won't be able to do it, or they struggle with normal dungeons. Then, they get in there with craftable sets and end up saying "wow, that was easier then I thought it would be!". You don't need to be OP to complete content. You don't need to turtle until you are OP for the content. Get in there, get experience, and start learning.

Don’t sit there and pretend that you know why I have been treated like garbage over the years in this game. Like I said, I can’t pay attention to it all. Someone will explain the mechanics and I will just immediately forget what they said 10 seconds later, I look around when I am in a dungeon, I get lost in thought mid fight and just completely forget where I am supposed to be standing (which leads to wipes). I am not an old person, just have a weird brain. I have been kicked from dungeons in the past and have been called things that you can’t even really say irl.

When I played with some guildies who understood all that we usually do just fine. I’ve done all the base game dungeons and some DLC dungeons on normal but they’ve since taken a break. Before Arcanist landed I basically quit the game because it just was not fun anymore. PvP was a mess and PvE group dungeons were just toxic. So I would finish the zone, all the quests, objectives etc and then never log in again until the next chapter dropped. Arcanist makes me feel comfortable enough to go into a group dungeon and feel like I’ll be fine.

Variety is good.

I won't pretend I know you specifically; I don't. But I have heard these same arguments about accessibility being important for the game. A noble position to be sure, but I find that once you dig into that players perspective, you almost always find their position is not representative of the vast majority of players. These accessibility arguments are always used to defend unbalanced, over powered gameplay too. We shouldn't be quick to discredit anyone's perspective, but we should acknowledge when they are in a niche category and shouldn't be catered to for the good of the game as a whole.

It sounds like you primarily play overland quest content and find normal dungeons difficult. Arcanist now allows you to feel adequate enough to complete normal dungeons. That's fine. I'm happy you feel confident to play content and that you enjoy overland questing. However, I don't believe that position is representative of the majority of players. Overland content and normal dungeons shouldn't be used to gauge power levels. You hear WAY more that Vet base game dungeons are too easy, that overland content power level is a joke.

Context is important and acknowledging a players bias is also important. In that way, we can understand their perspective and motive. You say that variety is good, but what you mean is "I like that Arcanist specifically is easy to play because it helps me". You aren't advocating for variety, you are advocating for your own game play to be made easier for you. You couldn't care less that some classes are harder then other because you just want Arcanist to be easier for you. Don't try to hide behind some noble cause here. The only thing that's fair is that all classes have the same play-ability AND the same late game potential. Balance. Variety should come from the aesthetics, not the power level.

OtarTheMad

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Brakkish wrote: »

Brakkish wrote: »

I'm more concerned with the couple of deaths you had. WTH happened?? You must have got knocked off a ledge or mouse died.

React wrote: »

So you agree then, the class is nearly unkillable. Great.

Of course I agree; I play arc tank in BGs - it IS unkillable. Where I disagree is that anything needs to be done about it. ... Enjoying being elite.

You can't have a balance discussion with players that just want to be OP, or want to press 2 buttons and kill everything.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink deduff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Just FYI, I'm not discussing PvP. I know there is some cross discussion here, so its fine. My experience with Arcanist in PvP is that I get stun locked and can't break free and destroyed... that might not be current Arcanist, idk.

For PvE, I feel like we've been here before with Templar. When Jabs is too strong, it's all Templar does and all it needs. They nerf Jabs and the community cries out, the death of the class is cried from the mountain tops. But they do attempt to distribute that power elsewhere. I just see similarities in both Jabs and Fatecarver, in Arcanist and Templar. Radiant Destruction is another similarity. There's been much call for redistributing the power of that Skill elsewhere in Templars kit and I would welcome the same for Fatecarver.

I say it’s okay if Arcanist is easier to do dps on, that helps the game. There is nothing wrong with something being easier as I don’t see how it affects the game in a bad way.

You seem to agree that Arcanist is far easier to play but feel that there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, you seem to believe it would be better if all classes were easier to play. I can certainly respect that it's important for new players to have accessible paths into the game, but I disagree that those paths should also be valid for mid and late game.

On that, I find we are at an impasse; I disagree wholeheartedly with the direction of simplifying class kits. If you truly view easier gameplay to be better for the overall game, then I won't be able to convince you otherwise.

I am one of those people that I actually feel more comfortable now going into a group dungeon with my Arcanist. I can’t do those complex, tight rotations and pay attention to mechanics and know where I should be standing and other stuff. I can’t focus on all that, but a simple rotation that allows me to get passable dps (I can hit 32k on a 3M dummy) makes me feel more comfortable.

I know we are all 85 years old, with arthritis in our hands and onset dementia, but I'm so tired of accessibility being used as an argument. It's laughably easy to do the bare minimum DPS in this game. The only thing preventing 99% of players from joining content is their own assumed inadequacies.

I call this the "Turtle mentality" and it's so prevalent in players. I've seen this so many times with guildies and friends too. They say they can't do vet content cause their DPS isnt good, or that they are scared they won't be able to do it, or they struggle with normal dungeons. Then, they get in there with craftable sets and end up saying "wow, that was easier then I thought it would be!". You don't need to be OP to complete content. You don't need to turtle until you are OP for the content. Get in there, get experience, and start learning.

Don’t sit there and pretend that you know why I have been treated like garbage over the years in this game. Like I said, I can’t pay attention to it all. Someone will explain the mechanics and I will just immediately forget what they said 10 seconds later, I look around when I am in a dungeon, I get lost in thought mid fight and just completely forget where I am supposed to be standing (which leads to wipes). I am not an old person, just have a weird brain. I have been kicked from dungeons in the past and have been called things that you can’t even really say irl.

When I played with some guildies who understood all that we usually do just fine. I’ve done all the base game dungeons and some DLC dungeons on normal but they’ve since taken a break. Before Arcanist landed I basically quit the game because it just was not fun anymore. PvP was a mess and PvE group dungeons were just toxic. So I would finish the zone, all the quests, objectives etc and then never log in again until the next chapter dropped. Arcanist makes me feel comfortable enough to go into a group dungeon and feel like I’ll be fine.

Variety is good.

I won't pretend I know you specifically; I don't. But I have heard these same arguments about accessibility being important for the game. A noble position to be sure, but I find that once you dig into that players perspective, you almost always find their position is not representative of the vast majority of players. These accessibility arguments are always used to defend unbalanced, over powered gameplay too. We shouldn't be quick to discredit anyone's perspective, but we should acknowledge when they are in a niche category and shouldn't be catered to for the good of the game as a whole.

It sounds like you primarily play overland quest content and find normal dungeons difficult. Arcanist now allows you to feel adequate enough to complete normal dungeons. That's fine. I'm happy you feel confident to play content and that you enjoy overland questing. However, I don't believe that position is representative of the majority of players. Overland content and normal dungeons shouldn't be used to gauge power levels. You hear WAY more that Vet base game dungeons are too easy, that overland content power level is a joke.

Context is important and acknowledging a players bias is also important. In that way, we can understand their perspective and motive. You say that variety is good, but what you mean is "I like that Arcanist specifically is easy to play because it helps me". You aren't advocating for variety, you are advocating for your own game play to be made easier for you. You couldn't care less that some classes are harder then other because you just want Arcanist to be easier for you. Don't try to hide behind some noble cause here. The only thing that's fair is that all classes have the same play-ability AND the same late game potential. Balance. Variety should come from the aesthetics, not the power level.

The only reason I don’t do vet dlc dungeons and vet group arena like dsa or prison is because of toxic players and them just not being worth dealing with. Life is too short and I play to relieve stress not gain. I don’t mind difficult content, I like Maelstrom, Vateshran and I like doing/trying to solo dungeons on normal.

I enjoy PvP, it’s just a laggy mess. PvP is like the ultimate endgame and the boss abilities are always changing, it’s fun.

I just think that it’s okay if something is easier. Me only needing to pay attention to about 4 abilities max helps me pay attention to surroundings and maybe even remember a few mechanics. Doesn’t mean that sometimes I won’t do a rotation that is more complex with more abilities, just can’t do that all the time. Usually I got lost and just end up using my spammable over and over lol.

I think, in terms of dps, some players got the wrong idea of how much you need to do the game because of all the videos and people saying 100k this and 120k that when that’s not the norm. However, that that also leads to some players having oddly high expectations and treating others like crap. Maybe that doesn’t happen as often as it did before but I’m not willing to try. Vet dlc dungeon aren’t that important of content to do honestly. If I am looking for a challenge I can find it easily on my own.

wjc361

Arcane master strong in the loop cast simple

IZZEFlameLash

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Brakkish wrote: »

Brakkish wrote: »

I'm more concerned with the couple of deaths you had. WTH happened?? You must have got knocked off a ledge or mouse died.

React wrote: »

So you agree then, the class is nearly unkillable. Great.

Of course I agree; I play arc tank in BGs - it IS unkillable. Where I disagree is that anything needs to be done about it. ... Enjoying being elite.

You can't have a balance discussion with players that just want to be OP, or want to press 2 buttons and kill everything.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Arcanist isn't an OP class in any way is it? They are tough to kill in PvP, but they are tough to get decent dps out of at the same time. So it's pretty balanced class isn't it?

This is how I kind of feel. I feel the class is pretty balanced except for the shield ultimate. Everything that is powerful has a downside already.

What's the downside of Fatecarver? I suggest you not say damage without crux. It's comparable to Biting Jabs, but has a 22m range and an entire 4 second channel. I think Templars would kill for that version of Jabs.

In PvE, Fatecarver is the bread and butter of the damage... it is all Arcanist needs... but see that's the problem... it's all Arcanist has. Runeblades is average at best, dps are forced to use it for crux, abyssal impact is good for the ink deduff but as a spammable is rather clunky and as an execute is below average. Imperfect ring is also only a PvE ability really, so you see... without Fatecarver Arcanist is just as bad as Necromancer. Imagine a class that's dps is so reliant on ONE skill. If it's nerfed, Arcanists are RIP.

Just FYI, I'm not discussing PvP. I know there is some cross discussion here, so its fine. My experience with Arcanist in PvP is that I get stun locked and can't break free and destroyed... that might not be current Arcanist, idk.

For PvE, I feel like we've been here before with Templar. When Jabs is too strong, it's all Templar does and all it needs. They nerf Jabs and the community cries out, the death of the class is cried from the mountain tops. But they do attempt to distribute that power elsewhere. I just see similarities in both Jabs and Fatecarver, in Arcanist and Templar. Radiant Destruction is another similarity. There's been much call for redistributing the power of that Skill elsewhere in Templars kit and I would welcome the same for Fatecarver.

I say it’s okay if Arcanist is easier to do dps on, that helps the game. There is nothing wrong with something being easier as I don’t see how it affects the game in a bad way.

You seem to agree that Arcanist is far easier to play but feel that there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, you seem to believe it would be better if all classes were easier to play. I can certainly respect that it's important for new players to have accessible paths into the game, but I disagree that those paths should also be valid for mid and late game.

On that, I find we are at an impasse; I disagree wholeheartedly with the direction of simplifying class kits. If you truly view easier gameplay to be better for the overall game, then I won't be able to convince you otherwise.

I am one of those people that I actually feel more comfortable now going into a group dungeon with my Arcanist. I can’t do those complex, tight rotations and pay attention to mechanics and know where I should be standing and other stuff. I can’t focus on all that, but a simple rotation that allows me to get passable dps (I can hit 32k on a 3M dummy) makes me feel more comfortable.

I know we are all 85 years old, with arthritis in our hands and onset dementia, but I'm so tired of accessibility being used as an argument. It's laughably easy to do the bare minimum DPS in this game. The only thing preventing 99% of players from joining content is their own assumed inadequacies.

I call this the "Turtle mentality" and it's so prevalent in players. I've seen this so many times with guildies and friends too. They say they can't do vet content cause their DPS isnt good, or that they are scared they won't be able to do it, or they struggle with normal dungeons. Then, they get in there with craftable sets and end up saying "wow, that was easier then I thought it would be!". You don't need to be OP to complete content. You don't need to turtle until you are OP for the content. Get in there, get experience, and start learning.

Don’t sit there and pretend that you know why I have been treated like garbage over the years in this game. Like I said, I can’t pay attention to it all. Someone will explain the mechanics and I will just immediately forget what they said 10 seconds later, I look around when I am in a dungeon, I get lost in thought mid fight and just completely forget where I am supposed to be standing (which leads to wipes). I am not an old person, just have a weird brain. I have been kicked from dungeons in the past and have been called things that you can’t even really say irl.

When I played with some guildies who understood all that we usually do just fine. I’ve done all the base game dungeons and some DLC dungeons on normal but they’ve since taken a break. Before Arcanist landed I basically quit the game because it just was not fun anymore. PvP was a mess and PvE group dungeons were just toxic. So I would finish the zone, all the quests, objectives etc and then never log in again until the next chapter dropped. Arcanist makes me feel comfortable enough to go into a group dungeon and feel like I’ll be fine.

Variety is good.

I won't pretend I know you specifically; I don't. But I have heard these same arguments about accessibility being important for the game. A noble position to be sure, but I find that once you dig into that players perspective, you almost always find their position is not representative of the vast majority of players. These accessibility arguments are always used to defend unbalanced, over powered gameplay too. We shouldn't be quick to discredit anyone's perspective, but we should acknowledge when they are in a niche category and shouldn't be catered to for the good of the game as a whole.

It sounds like you primarily play overland quest content and find normal dungeons difficult. Arcanist now allows you to feel adequate enough to complete normal dungeons. That's fine. I'm happy you feel confident to play content and that you enjoy overland questing. However, I don't believe that position is representative of the majority of players. Overland content and normal dungeons shouldn't be used to gauge power levels. You hear WAY more that Vet base game dungeons are too easy, that overland content power level is a joke.

Context is important and acknowledging a players bias is also important. In that way, we can understand their perspective and motive. You say that variety is good, but what you mean is "I like that Arcanist specifically is easy to play because it helps me". You aren't advocating for variety, you are advocating for your own game play to be made easier for you. You couldn't care less that some classes are harder then other because you just want Arcanist to be easier for you. Don't try to hide behind some noble cause here. The only thing that's fair is that all classes have the same play-ability AND the same late game potential. Balance. Variety should come from the aesthetics, not the power level.

The only reason I don’t do vet dlc dungeons and vet group arena like dsa or prison is because of toxic players and them just not being worth dealing with. Life is too short and I play to relieve stress not gain. I don’t mind difficult content, I like Maelstrom, Vateshran and I like doing/trying to solo dungeons on normal.

I enjoy PvP, it’s just a laggy mess. PvP is like the ultimate endgame and the boss abilities are always changing, it’s fun.

I just think that it’s okay if something is easier. Me only needing to pay attention to about 4 abilities max helps me pay attention to surroundings and maybe even remember a few mechanics. Doesn’t mean that sometimes I won’t do a rotation that is more complex with more abilities, just can’t do that all the time. Usually I got lost and just end up using my spammable over and over lol.

I think, in terms of dps, some players got the wrong idea of how much you need to do the game because of all the videos and people saying 100k this and 120k that when that’s not the norm. However, that that also leads to some players having oddly high expectations and treating others like crap. Maybe that doesn’t happen as often as it did before but I’m not willing to try. Vet dlc dungeon aren’t that important of content to do honestly. If I am looking for a challenge I can find it easily on my own.

Oh, 100-120k expectations still happen... it never went away unfortunately, even with Arcanist's release.

Sleeping_OwI

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t think Arcanist is the strongest class in the Endless Archives or any content but rather seems balanced. Necro feels weakest of the different classes I’ve tried in EA as in all content. Sorc is frustrating once pets are near insta-killed (which should be fixed in addition to non-pet builds having viable heal and dps options). Dragonknight feels strong, and I don’t wish for that class to be nerfed any more than arcanist; rather I hope necro and sorc get some improvements and additional options for viable builds.

There's always that guy who justifies arcanist and says it's balanced, lmaoo.

Sleeping_OwI

jecks33 wrote: »

Arcanist is very well balanced but not the best in EA. On pc eu the best scores come from dk and warden

Yes, melting entire add pulls from range with a single skill while being almost invincible is very balanced, lmao. And that's just one of the many things.

SaffronCitrusflower

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

Arcanist is very well balanced but not the best in EA. On pc eu the best scores come from dk and warden

Yes, melting entire add pulls from range with a single skill while being almost invincible is very balanced, lmao. And that's just one of the many things.

Why would it matter if a class is strong against adds that are created to die easily en masse? Everything overland and in non vet trial and dungeons die when a toon just looks at them.

OtarTheMad

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

Arcanist is very well balanced but not the best in EA. On pc eu the best scores come from dk and warden

Yes, melting entire add pulls from range with a single skill while being almost invincible is very balanced, lmao. And that's just one of the many things.

Players can melt adds at level 10 with any class, doesn’t say much about Arcanist. Trash mobs are easy at any level.

Is shield ult too strong still? Yeah, but I feel the rest is pretty balanced.

SandandStars

Enable me to actually block or break free from colorless pool, and fatecarver is no longer an issue.

Colorless seems to be broken, no?

OtarTheMad

SandandStars wrote: »

Enable me to actually block or break free from colorless pool, and fatecarver is no longer an issue.

Colorless seems to be broken, no?

It’s really all stuns. I have the same problem with colorless as I have with time stop and fears.

IZZEFlameLash

OtarTheMad wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Enable me to actually block or break free from colorless pool, and fatecarver is no longer an issue.

Colorless seems to be broken, no?

It’s really all stuns. I have the same problem with colorless as I have with time stop and fears.

This is more to do with unresponsive CC breaks. Another one ZOS refuses to fix.

ceruulean

Arcanist definitely needs the cleave damage nerfed. Make it do the full single target damage on the closest target and reduced splash damage on other targets, like templar jabs. I can parse the same numbers with both arc and templar, but in content arc just deals way more damage.

For example, in vSE an arcanist can run Pragmatic Fatecarver and tank the lightning miniboss in the portal, while dealing massive damage, without having to slot vigor. Templar has to block cast Honor the Dead or sacrifice Barrier ultimate if I get the lightning.

The unique 5% debuff from flail is a significant damage boost that other classes don't have, because other classes have mostly named buffs that don't stack.

That being said, mag arcanist needs buffs, since it's just worse sustain and worse damage right now.

OtarTheMad

ceruulean wrote: »

Arcanist definitely needs the cleave damage nerfed. Make it do the full single target damage on the closest target and reduced splash damage on other targets, like templar jabs. I can parse the same numbers with both arc and templar, but in content arc just deals way more damage.

For example, in vSE an arcanist can run Pragmatic Fatecarver and tank the lightning miniboss in the portal, while dealing massive damage, without having to slot vigor. Templar has to block cast Honor the Dead or sacrifice Barrier ultimate if I get the lightning.

The unique 5% debuff from flail is a significant damage boost that other classes don't have, because other classes have mostly named buffs that don't stack.

That being said, mag arcanist needs buffs, since it's just worse sustain and worse damage right now.

You can't nerf the damage but also buff the damage at the same time. The abilities cost is based on what your max attribute is, mag or stam, so nerfing the ability nerfs both mag and stam. Plus, your solution to Arcanist is to bring it down to the level of Templar when that class is at the bottom with Necro? Unless you are saying that Templar and other classes below average should be brought up and balanced, in which case I agree.

Every class should be unique and different. They should bring different things to the table that make them fun and stand out.

IZZEFlameLash

OtarTheMad wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

Arcanist definitely needs the cleave damage nerfed. Make it do the full single target damage on the closest target and reduced splash damage on other targets, like templar jabs. I can parse the same numbers with both arc and templar, but in content arc just deals way more damage.

For example, in vSE an arcanist can run Pragmatic Fatecarver and tank the lightning miniboss in the portal, while dealing massive damage, without having to slot vigor. Templar has to block cast Honor the Dead or sacrifice Barrier ultimate if I get the lightning.

The unique 5% debuff from flail is a significant damage boost that other classes don't have, because other classes have mostly named buffs that don't stack.

That being said, mag arcanist needs buffs, since it's just worse sustain and worse damage right now.

You can't nerf the damage but also buff the damage at the same time. The abilities cost is based on what your max attribute is, mag or stam, so nerfing the ability nerfs both mag and stam. Plus, your solution to Arcanist is to bring it down to the level of Templar when that class is at the bottom with Necro? Unless you are saying that Templar and other classes below average should be brought up and balanced, in which case I agree.

Every class should be unique and different. They should bring different things to the table that make them fun and stand out.

Yeah and players start blaming hybridization after calling for nerfs on class ethemes that do not even outperform anything by huge margin. Arcanist DPS is about the same tier as other classes. Only difference is amount of punishment attached to missing a timing on pressing buttons. Other classes can have sharp fall off when missing a timing, while Arcanist is very forgiving.

Say, if Arcanist beam was a book spawning and beaming it all by itself like a turret while your character is freed up to cast other abilities while the beam deals the same amount of damage as it does. In that case, the beam can be stated to be OP because you can stack additional damage with it, which would bring Arcanist DPS above other classes.

But it isn't the case. To beam, you are locked into building 3 cruxes, and channel for 4-5 seconds depending on your morph. So, it MUST be able to at least deal DPS equivalent of other classes not locked into long channels can do with direct damage spammables on top of light attacks, procs attached to light attacks, other DoTs being casted on near picture perfect timing before expiration. People ought to consider this fact rather than just look at number on tooltip.

Pixiepumpkin

Arcanist is fine. My one bar heavy attack magicka sorc does more DPS and survives better. Arcanist just has an easier time with trash if you can line them up with LOS, that being said my sorc does just fine as long as I can get the last tick on the heavy attack (which then works as an AOE). He hits so hard, that sometimes the mob dies before the last tick so trash takes longer.

ADarklore

Um, so if a huge number of players are playing Arcanist, would that not be a reason WHY they are always close or at the top? It may not necessarily be because they are "OP" but because a lot of players find Arcanist fun to play.

I honestly don't think ARC needs any adjustments, I find them to be extremely balanced for a change. Perhaps ZOS does too, which is why they haven't made any significant changes. I remember when Warden came out, it wasn't long after they were hit with the nerf bat. Yet, here we are, months later, and ARC is still going strong.

Also, perhaps ZOS took note of what happened to Diablo IV when the devs brought out the nerf hammer, or maybe even learned after the huge number of players left last time they brought out the major nerf patch. One can always hope.

KS_Amt38

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

Arcanist definitely needs the cleave damage nerfed. Make it do the full single target damage on the closest target and reduced splash damage on other targets, like templar jabs. I can parse the same numbers with both arc and templar, but in content arc just deals way more damage.

For example, in vSE an arcanist can run Pragmatic Fatecarver and tank the lightning miniboss in the portal, while dealing massive damage, without having to slot vigor. Templar has to block cast Honor the Dead or sacrifice Barrier ultimate if I get the lightning.

The unique 5% debuff from flail is a significant damage boost that other classes don't have, because other classes have mostly named buffs that don't stack.

That being said, mag arcanist needs buffs, since it's just worse sustain and worse damage right now.

You can't nerf the damage but also buff the damage at the same time. The abilities cost is based on what your max attribute is, mag or stam, so nerfing the ability nerfs both mag and stam. Plus, your solution to Arcanist is to bring it down to the level of Templar when that class is at the bottom with Necro? Unless you are saying that Templar and other classes below average should be brought up and balanced, in which case I agree.

Every class should be unique and different. They should bring different things to the table that make them fun and stand out.

Yeah and players start blaming hybridization after calling for nerfs on class ethemes that do not even outperform anything by huge margin. Arcanist DPS is about the same tier as other classes. Only difference is amount of punishment attached to missing a timing on pressing buttons. Other classes can have sharp fall off when missing a timing, while Arcanist is very forgiving.

Say, if Arcanist beam was a book spawning and beaming it all by itself like a turret while your character is freed up to cast other abilities while the beam deals the same amount of damage as it does. In that case, the beam can be stated to be OP because you can stack additional damage with it, which would bring Arcanist DPS above other classes.

But it isn't the case. To beam, you are locked into building 3 cruxes, and channel for 4-5 seconds depending on your morph. So, it MUST be able to at least deal DPS equivalent of other classes not locked into long channels can do with direct damage spammables on top of light attacks, procs attached to light attacks, other DoTs being casted on near picture perfect timing before expiration. People ought to consider this fact rather than just look at number on tooltip.

Let me put it that way, I'm (or was) very skilled with Nighbtlade and barely miss any "timing on pressing buttons" in a trial fight like the Reef Guardian in DSR. Even with a perfect Nighbtlade rotation the Arcanist would to at least 50% more dmg in the Reef Guardian fight, that is why a Nighbtlade won't be able to do any trials as a DD atm.

My point is, it's not ONLY that the Arcanist is super easy to play, it is also much more rewarding, as you dish out huge amount of DPS on every single enemy in your lane.

ceruulean

OtarTheMad wrote: »

You can't nerf the damage but also buff the damage at the same time. The abilities cost is based on what your max attribute is, mag or stam, so nerfing the ability nerfs both mag and stam. Plus, your solution to Arcanist is to bring it down to the level of Templar when that class is at the bottom with Necro? Unless you are saying that Templar and other classes below average should be brought up and balanced, in which case I agree.

Every class should be unique and different. They should bring different things to the table that make them fun and stand out.

Lol Templar is not bottom tier in PvE, that distinction goes to Nightblades, Wardens and Necros. Nightblades should at least be able to parse as high as sorcs but they can't because Nightblades got their unique self buff removed and replaced with Major Berserk, so they're useless in trial when a sorc can give party Major Berserk.

Also I'm only asking to nerf the secondary cleave damage. The main single target damage of fatecarver can stay the same. And remove the self heal on stamina flail, and the shield on Paragmatic Fatecarver should be reduced by 15%

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Say, if Arcanist beam was a book spawning and beaming it all by itself like a turret while your character is freed up to cast other abilities while the beam deals the same amount of damage as it does. In that case, the beam can be stated to be OP because you can stack additional damage with it, which would bring Arcanist DPS above other classes.

But it isn't the case.

Lol that is the case. Arcanist can stack additional damage, throw dots and go to town. 15 second Blockade of Fire, 20 second scalding rune or caltrops, Fulminating Rune where allies deal damage for you with the synergy, then beam like a turret. Fatcarver deals 150k DPS with a button press lmao, the only downside is you have to flail and buff occasionally so that's why they "only" do 130k

IZZEFlameLash

ceruulean wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

You can't nerf the damage but also buff the damage at the same time. The abilities cost is based on what your max attribute is, mag or stam, so nerfing the ability nerfs both mag and stam. Plus, your solution to Arcanist is to bring it down to the level of Templar when that class is at the bottom with Necro? Unless you are saying that Templar and other classes below average should be brought up and balanced, in which case I agree.

Every class should be unique and different. They should bring different things to the table that make them fun and stand out.

Lol Templar is not bottom tier in PvE, that distinction goes to Nightblades, Wardens and Necros. Nightblades should at least be able to parse as high as sorcs but they can't because Nightblades got their unique self buff removed and replaced with Major Berserk, so they're useless in trial when a sorc can give party Major Berserk.

Also I'm only asking to nerf the secondary cleave damage. The main single target damage of fatecarver can stay the same. And remove the self heal on stamina flail, and the shield on Paragmatic Fatecarver should be reduced by 15%

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Say, if Arcanist beam was a book spawning and beaming it all by itself like a turret while your character is freed up to cast other abilities while the beam deals the same amount of damage as it does. In that case, the beam can be stated to be OP because you can stack additional damage with it, which would bring Arcanist DPS above other classes.

But it isn't the case.

Lol that is the case. Arcanist can stack additional damage, throw dots and go to town. 15 second Blockade of Fire, 20 second scalding rune or caltrops, Fulminating Rune where allies deal damage for you with the synergy, then beam like a turret. Fatcarver deals 150k DPS with a button press lmao, the only downside is you have to flail and buff occasionally so that's why they "only" do 130k

You literally cannot cast anything but Fatecarver when you channel that skill. All Fatecarver does is to make the DPS fall off from DoTs you casted before going into Flails + Fatecarver rotation less severe than in other classes. As I've said, if this was like Ballista bow ult where you spawn a turret and deals the same amount of damage as it does right now while your char is free to spam direct damage, refresh DoTs about to fall off, sure that would need to be nerfed. But that really isn't the case. You only can lay down DoTs

KS_Amt38 wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

Arcanist definitely needs the cleave damage nerfed. Make it do the full single target damage on the closest target and reduced splash damage on other targets, like templar jabs. I can parse the same numbers with both arc and templar, but in content arc just deals way more damage.

For example, in vSE an arcanist can run Pragmatic Fatecarver and tank the lightning miniboss in the portal, while dealing massive damage, without having to slot vigor. Templar has to block cast Honor the Dead or sacrifice Barrier ultimate if I get the lightning.

The unique 5% debuff from flail is a significant damage boost that other classes don't have, because other classes have mostly named buffs that don't stack.

That being said, mag arcanist needs buffs, since it's just worse sustain and worse damage right now.

You can't nerf the damage but also buff the damage at the same time. The abilities cost is based on what your max attribute is, mag or stam, so nerfing the ability nerfs both mag and stam. Plus, your solution to Arcanist is to bring it down to the level of Templar when that class is at the bottom with Necro? Unless you are saying that Templar and other classes below average should be brought up and balanced, in which case I agree.

Every class should be unique and different. They should bring different things to the table that make them fun and stand out.

Yeah and players start blaming hybridization after calling for nerfs on class ethemes that do not even outperform anything by huge margin. Arcanist DPS is about the same tier as other classes. Only difference is amount of punishment attached to missing a timing on pressing buttons. Other classes can have sharp fall off when missing a timing, while Arcanist is very forgiving.

Say, if Arcanist beam was a book spawning and beaming it all by itself like a turret while your character is freed up to cast other abilities while the beam deals the same amount of damage as it does. In that case, the beam can be stated to be OP because you can stack additional damage with it, which would bring Arcanist DPS above other classes.

But it isn't the case. To beam, you are locked into building 3 cruxes, and channel for 4-5 seconds depending on your morph. So, it MUST be able to at least deal DPS equivalent of other classes not locked into long channels can do with direct damage spammables on top of light attacks, procs attached to light attacks, other DoTs being casted on near picture perfect timing before expiration. People ought to consider this fact rather than just look at number on tooltip.

Let me put it that way, I'm (or was) very skilled with Nighbtlade and barely miss any "timing on pressing buttons" in a trial fight like the Reef Guardian in DSR. Even with a perfect Nighbtlade rotation the Arcanist would to at least 50% more dmg in the Reef Guardian fight, that is why a Nighbtlade won't be able to do any trials as a DD atm.

My point is, it's not ONLY that the Arcanist is super easy to play, it is also much more rewarding, as you dish out huge amount of DPS on every single enemy in your lane.

Oh yeah, I won't deny that it is more rewarding and fun to play for the reasons you mention. It is because the class was designed after ZOS has nailed down their PvE content formula and basically was tailored for it. I just don't think nerf is the way to go about handling this.

ZOS would need to really work their brains and come up with creative solution such as designing a trial that deviates from typical formula that encouraged innate aoe class to excel at. Perhaps make something that discourage the indiscriminate AoE attacks. For example, for a certain period of time, any cleave damage done to adds will be reflected back to the players while the boss is open to complete single target damages, kind of like Tho'at and reflecting direct damages but can still be damaged via DoTs.

OtarTheMad

ceruulean wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

You can't nerf the damage but also buff the damage at the same time. The abilities cost is based on what your max attribute is, mag or stam, so nerfing the ability nerfs both mag and stam. Plus, your solution to Arcanist is to bring it down to the level of Templar when that class is at the bottom with Necro? Unless you are saying that Templar and other classes below average should be brought up and balanced, in which case I agree.

Every class should be unique and different. They should bring different things to the table that make them fun and stand out.

Lol Templar is not bottom tier in PvE, that distinction goes to Nightblades, Wardens and Necros. Nightblades should at least be able to parse as high as sorcs but they can't because Nightblades got their unique self buff removed and replaced with Major Berserk, so they're useless in trial when a sorc can give party Major Berserk.

Also I'm only asking to nerf the secondary cleave damage. The main single target damage of fatecarver can stay the same. And remove the self heal on stamina flail, and the shield on Paragmatic Fatecarver should be reduced by 15%

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Say, if Arcanist beam was a book spawning and beaming it all by itself like a turret while your character is freed up to cast other abilities while the beam deals the same amount of damage as it does. In that case, the beam can be stated to be OP because you can stack additional damage with it, which would bring Arcanist DPS above other classes.

But it isn't the case.

Lol that is the case. Arcanist can stack additional damage, throw dots and go to town. 15 second Blockade of Fire, 20 second scalding rune or caltrops, Fulminating Rune where allies deal damage for you with the synergy, then beam like a turret. Fatcarver deals 150k DPS with a button press lmao, the only downside is you have to flail and buff occasionally so that's why they "only" do 130k

LoL no. I have an Arcanist and I can’t just cast Fatecarver and do 130k. I parse on a 3M dummy and did some in game stuff and hit 33k. Also, we need to get away from that and stop portraying 100k+ as a normal number to hit.

I honestly think some people are overreacting a bit. Classes should feel fun to play and those that aren’t, like necro, should be changed. That’s the only thing that Arcanist is… fun to play. Fact is you could do everything in the game before Arcanist and with Arcanist nothing is stopping you from completing everything.

Could the shield on Fatecarver be nerfed? Sure I guess, I don’t rely on it to save me in PvE and in PvP smart players know how to counter that. Plus, the beam that has the snare on it I find is the better morph since it helps line things up easier. I just don’t think nerfing does anything but continue a cycle that is just maddening to watch. If something actually is OP sure, tone it down, like the Shield Ultimate but the rest of Arcanist is just fine.

Make the other classes unique and just as fun in their own way.

OtarTheMad

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

Arcanist definitely needs the cleave damage nerfed. Make it do the full single target damage on the closest target and reduced splash damage on other targets, like templar jabs. I can parse the same numbers with both arc and templar, but in content arc just deals way more damage.

For example, in vSE an arcanist can run Pragmatic Fatecarver and tank the lightning miniboss in the portal, while dealing massive damage, without having to slot vigor. Templar has to block cast Honor the Dead or sacrifice Barrier ultimate if I get the lightning.

The unique 5% debuff from flail is a significant damage boost that other classes don't have, because other classes have mostly named buffs that don't stack.

That being said, mag arcanist needs buffs, since it's just worse sustain and worse damage right now.

You can't nerf the damage but also buff the damage at the same time. The abilities cost is based on what your max attribute is, mag or stam, so nerfing the ability nerfs both mag and stam. Plus, your solution to Arcanist is to bring it down to the level of Templar when that class is at the bottom with Necro? Unless you are saying that Templar and other classes below average should be brought up and balanced, in which case I agree.

Every class should be unique and different. They should bring different things to the table that make them fun and stand out.

Yeah and players start blaming hybridization after calling for nerfs on class ethemes that do not even outperform anything by huge margin. Arcanist DPS is about the same tier as other classes. Only difference is amount of punishment attached to missing a timing on pressing buttons. Other classes can have sharp fall off when missing a timing, while Arcanist is very forgiving.

Say, if Arcanist beam was a book spawning and beaming it all by itself like a turret while your character is freed up to cast other abilities while the beam deals the same amount of damage as it does. In that case, the beam can be stated to be OP because you can stack additional damage with it, which would bring Arcanist DPS above other classes.

But it isn't the case. To beam, you are locked into building 3 cruxes, and channel for 4-5 seconds depending on your morph. So, it MUST be able to at least deal DPS equivalent of other classes not locked into long channels can do with direct damage spammables on top of light attacks, procs attached to light attacks, other DoTs being casted on near picture perfect timing before expiration. People ought to consider this fact rather than just look at number on tooltip.

Exactly. And I feel like ZOS will eventually nerf Fatecarver to silence the crowd and then Arcanist won’t be fun and will be trash and people will ask “what happened” like they do now with Necromancer.

If ZOS didn’t have a tendency to overnerf things then I wouldn’t be as worried.

boi_anachronism_

birdik wrote: »

Arcanist isnt op, that's why in all trifecta push score groups all dds are arcanists ( with 2 supports dk/sorc/necro okay )

Sure but heres the thing: those players know the content so well that they have learned to work around its weaknesses. They know the mechanics so well that they are able to time their beams in between attacks that interrupt for example. Realisically they are still getting comparable scores to what they did prior to the class being released. The world record for vcr for example is 2:12 i believe. The one previous to arc release is 2:24. 12 second difference. Being that the beam is a long channel and mid level players are not on that level they lose a significant amount of dps in actual content regardless of what they hit on the dummy. I got a buddy who is a high level player. I got 2 trifectas with him. He just built an arc and he is still having issues getting high dps in content for newer hms. Heck he had a big problem the first time he did final boss portals for vdsr because of the timing and he knew the content well. Its not instant awesome player like ha sorcs were. You can do better mid level damage but you arent immediately a fantastic player because of the class.

IZZEFlameLash

OtarTheMad wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

Arcanist definitely needs the cleave damage nerfed. Make it do the full single target damage on the closest target and reduced splash damage on other targets, like templar jabs. I can parse the same numbers with both arc and templar, but in content arc just deals way more damage.

For example, in vSE an arcanist can run Pragmatic Fatecarver and tank the lightning miniboss in the portal, while dealing massive damage, without having to slot vigor. Templar has to block cast Honor the Dead or sacrifice Barrier ultimate if I get the lightning.

The unique 5% debuff from flail is a significant damage boost that other classes don't have, because other classes have mostly named buffs that don't stack.

That being said, mag arcanist needs buffs, since it's just worse sustain and worse damage right now.

You can't nerf the damage but also buff the damage at the same time. The abilities cost is based on what your max attribute is, mag or stam, so nerfing the ability nerfs both mag and stam. Plus, your solution to Arcanist is to bring it down to the level of Templar when that class is at the bottom with Necro? Unless you are saying that Templar and other classes below average should be brought up and balanced, in which case I agree.

Every class should be unique and different. They should bring different things to the table that make them fun and stand out.

Yeah and players start blaming hybridization after calling for nerfs on class ethemes that do not even outperform anything by huge margin. Arcanist DPS is about the same tier as other classes. Only difference is amount of punishment attached to missing a timing on pressing buttons. Other classes can have sharp fall off when missing a timing, while Arcanist is very forgiving.

Say, if Arcanist beam was a book spawning and beaming it all by itself like a turret while your character is freed up to cast other abilities while the beam deals the same amount of damage as it does. In that case, the beam can be stated to be OP because you can stack additional damage with it, which would bring Arcanist DPS above other classes.

But it isn't the case. To beam, you are locked into building 3 cruxes, and channel for 4-5 seconds depending on your morph. So, it MUST be able to at least deal DPS equivalent of other classes not locked into long channels can do with direct damage spammables on top of light attacks, procs attached to light attacks, other DoTs being casted on near picture perfect timing before expiration. People ought to consider this fact rather than just look at number on tooltip.

Exactly. And I feel like ZOS will eventually nerf Fatecarver to silence the crowd and then Arcanist won’t be fun and will be trash and people will ask “what happened” like they do now with Necromancer.

If ZOS didn’t have a tendency to overnerf things then I wouldn’t be as worried.

You know it to be true. Then people probably would wonder why Arcanist can only pull 20-30% less than other at max at high level. Arcanist balance is currently on a very thin ice. A slight nudge to one direction will risk the complete tip over to the direction and crash without proper counter balance. If Fatecarver was to be nerfed, then it better be a short enough channel that you won't have to let DoTs fall off for even half a second as current Fatecarver duration and damage is balanced with letting the player have grace period of not refreshing the DoT immediately in mind.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

Arcanist isnt op, that's why in all trifecta push score groups all dds are arcanists ( with 2 supports dk/sorc/necro okay )

Sure but heres the thing: those players know the content so well that they have learned to work around its weaknesses. They know the mechanics so well that they are able to time their beams in between attacks that interrupt for example. Realisically they are still getting comparable scores to what they did prior to the class being released. The world record for vcr for example is 2:12 i believe. The one previous to arc release is 2:24. 12 second difference. Being that the beam is a long channel and mid level players are not on that level they lose a significant amount of dps in actual content regardless of what they hit on the dummy. I got a buddy who is a high level player. I got 2 trifectas with him. He just built an arc and he is still having issues getting high dps in content for newer hms. Heck he had a big problem the first time he did final boss portals for vdsr because of the timing and he knew the content well. Its not instant awesome player like ha sorcs were. You can do better mid level damage but you arent immediately a fantastic player because of the class.

Yeah, as much as people want to not believe this to be the case, to pull actual high DPS, you still have to master the rotation on Arcanist. Also, player has to time when to beam and when not to beam and refresh the DoTs. It isn't as easy as 'just press the beam for 130k dps lul'.