Update All "While Slotted" Abilities to Function on Either Bar

MashmalloMan

Erickson9610 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

That being said, I've noticed three general categories with how passives that require active skills function. This includes:

1. An effect which scales up based on the number of active abilities slotted (e.g. Slayer, increases WD/SD by 3% per slotted Fighters Guild skill)
2. An effect which is does not scale up, but simply requires an active ability slotted (e.g. Banish the Wicked, generates 3 Ultimate when an enemy is slain if you have a Fighters Guild skill slotted)
3. A boost to the effectiveness of the active abilities in that skill line (e.g. Skilled Tracker, increases damage of Fighters Guild abilities by 10%)

I believe that if Passive Abilities were to be given the "either bar" treatment, one approach to balancing this would be to make passives that are in category 1 function more like the passives in category 2.

Doesn't feel necessary, I quite like how they scale based on how far you lean into that skill line.

The per slotted skills generally have lower values that only reach a decent amount around 3 skills on your bar which in my experience, is often how many you usually end up with for an average well rounded build in pvp.

This brings a bit of diversity imo, rather than just slapping a flat value. If required you could balance it down a little, like maybe the NB 3% healing goes to 2% instead. Etc etc.

That is a fair point. If every passive required only one active ability slotted to reach the maximum value, then people wouldn't try to build into any particular skill line. Passives should encourage players to build into certain aspects of their character, rather than being a "one and done" thing.

Additionally, there are some passive abilities which have completely unnecessary "while x ability is slotted" conditions. For instance, Hemorrhage requires you to both slot an Assassination ability and land a critical strike in order to proc the class minor buff. Compare this to Maturation, which does not have the requirement to slot any Warden ability but just requires you to heal yourself or an ally in order to proc the class minor buff.

If passive abilities checked either bar, then the proc conditions for these passives would be more relaxed, while still encouraging players to build into those skill lines with both of their ability bars. The same can be said about active abilities with "while slotted" conditions. Weapon swapping shouldn't change your character's passive talents — the only thing that should change is their weapon.

Agreed 100%.

Skill slots are still worth something, just because a siphoning skill gives 3% healing done or in my example 2% on either bar, doesn't mean I would load up my back bar with all 6 skills. It would functionally sacrifice too much for a minimal bonus and added complexity. At that point I'd consider Oakensoul instead which does the same thing to a better degree.

I'd much rather it be optional, rather than a must have bonus forcing most classes to have a minimum of 1 skill from every line somewhere in their 12 skill slots. It's a bit too low effort and hurts builds. It's fine where it works like Necro's 200 regen for a summon since all 3 roles rely on summons for DPS, tanking, or healing to some degree or another.

NB healers are going to get the biggest benefit from siphoning skills as the line is meant for them. A stacking bonus enforces those playstyles while offering a small, optional bonus for non healers.

The minor group buff passives need a complete overhaul at this point. It seems like they've kept their hands off of them for so long simply because they are inevitably going to be reworked whenever they tackle actually finishing the hybridization changes they started 2 years ago. They're meant to give groups a reason to mix match classes, but as it stands you only need 1 Sorc or NB and 1 Templar or DK. Necro brings Major Vuln which is no longer unique with sets. It's a mess.

i11ionward

Erickson9610 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

That being said, I've noticed three general categories with how passives that require active skills function. This includes:

1. An effect which scales up based on the number of active abilities slotted (e.g. Slayer, increases WD/SD by 3% per slotted Fighters Guild skill)
2. An effect which is does not scale up, but simply requires an active ability slotted (e.g. Banish the Wicked, generates 3 Ultimate when an enemy is slain if you have a Fighters Guild skill slotted)
3. A boost to the effectiveness of the active abilities in that skill line (e.g. Skilled Tracker, increases damage of Fighters Guild abilities by 10%)

I believe that if Passive Abilities were to be given the "either bar" treatment, one approach to balancing this would be to make passives that are in category 1 function more like the passives in category 2.

Doesn't feel necessary, I quite like how they scale based on how far you lean into that skill line.

The per slotted skills generally have lower values that only reach a decent amount around 3 skills on your bar which in my experience, is often how many you usually end up with for an average well rounded build in pvp.

This brings a bit of diversity imo, rather than just slapping a flat value. If required you could balance it down a little, like maybe the NB 3% healing goes to 2% instead. Etc etc.

That is a fair point. If every passive required only one active ability slotted to reach the maximum value, then people wouldn't try to build into any particular skill line. Passives should encourage players to build into certain aspects of their character, rather than being a "one and done" thing.

Additionally, there are some passive abilities which have completely unnecessary "while x ability is slotted" conditions. For instance, Hemorrhage requires you to both slot an Assassination ability and land a critical strike in order to proc the class minor buff. Compare this to Maturation, which does not have the requirement to slot any Warden ability but just requires you to heal yourself or an ally in order to proc the class minor buff.

If passive abilities checked either bar, then the proc conditions for these passives would be more relaxed, while still encouraging players to build into those skill lines with both of their ability bars. The same can be said about active abilities with "while slotted" conditions. Weapon swapping shouldn't change your character's passive talents — the only thing that should change is their weapon.

I want to give my opinion on the Sorcerer example, but this example applies to almost all classes:

Expert Mage - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
I wouldn't want this passive to use the "either bar" mechanic, players will just use the class skills on the backbar to ensure maximum profit from this passive, in the end it will only limit the variability of builds.

Daedric Protection - Increases your Health and Stamina Recovery by 20% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability slotted.
And this passive just limits the variability of builds at the moment, so basically you want every bar to have a Daedric Summoning skill. It would have been much better if this skill used the "either bar" mechanic.

TL;DR
Passive skills like "for each class/guild ability slotted" should not use the "either bar" mechanic.
Passive skills like "while you have a class ability slotted" should use the "either bar" mechanic.

Dayhjawk

YES for the love of all that is holy!! can we get magelight and expert hunter to function on either bar!!!! the only reason you would activate them is to see stealthed players nearby! @ZOS_Kevin

MashmalloMan

i11ionward wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

That being said, I've noticed three general categories with how passives that require active skills function. This includes:

1. An effect which scales up based on the number of active abilities slotted (e.g. Slayer, increases WD/SD by 3% per slotted Fighters Guild skill)
2. An effect which is does not scale up, but simply requires an active ability slotted (e.g. Banish the Wicked, generates 3 Ultimate when an enemy is slain if you have a Fighters Guild skill slotted)
3. A boost to the effectiveness of the active abilities in that skill line (e.g. Skilled Tracker, increases damage of Fighters Guild abilities by 10%)

I believe that if Passive Abilities were to be given the "either bar" treatment, one approach to balancing this would be to make passives that are in category 1 function more like the passives in category 2.

Doesn't feel necessary, I quite like how they scale based on how far you lean into that skill line.

The per slotted skills generally have lower values that only reach a decent amount around 3 skills on your bar which in my experience, is often how many you usually end up with for an average well rounded build in pvp.

This brings a bit of diversity imo, rather than just slapping a flat value. If required you could balance it down a little, like maybe the NB 3% healing goes to 2% instead. Etc etc.

That is a fair point. If every passive required only one active ability slotted to reach the maximum value, then people wouldn't try to build into any particular skill line. Passives should encourage players to build into certain aspects of their character, rather than being a "one and done" thing.

Additionally, there are some passive abilities which have completely unnecessary "while x ability is slotted" conditions. For instance, Hemorrhage requires you to both slot an Assassination ability and land a critical strike in order to proc the class minor buff. Compare this to Maturation, which does not have the requirement to slot any Warden ability but just requires you to heal yourself or an ally in order to proc the class minor buff.

If passive abilities checked either bar, then the proc conditions for these passives would be more relaxed, while still encouraging players to build into those skill lines with both of their ability bars. The same can be said about active abilities with "while slotted" conditions. Weapon swapping shouldn't change your character's passive talents — the only thing that should change is their weapon.

I want to give my opinion on the Sorcerer example, but this example applies to almost all classes:

Expert Mage - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
I wouldn't want this passive to use the "either bar" mechanic, players will just use the class skills on the backbar to ensure maximum profit from this passive, in the end it will only limit the variability of builds.

Daedric Protection - Increases your Health and Stamina Recovery by 20% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability slotted.
And this passive just limits the variability of builds at the moment, so basically you want every bar to have a Daedric Summoning skill. It would have been much better if this skill used the "either bar" mechanic.

TL;DR
Passive skills like "for each class/guild ability slotted" should not use the "either bar" mechanic.
Passive skills like "while you have a class ability slotted" should use the "either bar" mechanic.

I disagree. As I put in my other comment, you wouldn't sacrifice useful skills for these tiny bonuses just to have them do nothing on your back bar. If that were the case, you're better off running Oakensoul. You might want to add a few in your flex spots like how we add Fighters guild skills now, I don't really see much of a difference.

The Sorc passive is the only class passive I know of that gives a bonus from all 3 skill lines for being slotted, it could easily be adjusted to make it work better if it was problematic, like 1% to 1.5% per Sorc skill slotted. In general I think these types of passives could see a 30% nerf if they worked from both bars.

And yeah Daedric Protection is hella annoying. In so many builds throughout the year I always end up in the same place.

Atro back bar.

Haunting Curse or Bound Armaments front bar.

Forces me to sacrifice Minor Protection from Undo or a more useful pvp ult because I need that regen.

Erickson9610

I hope that more active abilities will receive the "either bar" treatment, and that the passive abilities would also be considered. It seems unlikely that much else will change for Update 40, so maybe these suggestions will be considered for the next big update.

MashmalloMan

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I hope that more active abilities will receive the "either bar" treatment, and that the passive abilities would also be considered. It seems unlikely that much else will change for Update 40, so maybe these suggestions will be considered for the next big update.

Oh yeah I think most of us have written off this update already, it's too late.

Hopefuly they make some big changes to the non DK/NB sets for EA, but the bad part is, whatever we get today is esentially going to live. There is no more time for testing and feedback to make it in time.

At most, they'll fix game breaking bugs for the sets, but the power/functionality/idea of them will go to launch.

Erickson9610

I realized that I overlooked the other "while slotted" passive effects of Magelight and its morphs, and also Camouflaged Hunter. I've updated the original post, but the effects are:

• Fighters Guild
  • Expert Hunter — Major Savagery and Prophecy
    • Evil Hunter — Major Savagery and Prophecy
    • Camouflaged Hunter — Major Savagery and Prophecy, and also grants Minor Berserk when dealing Critical Damage from an enemy's flank
• Mages Guild
  • Magelight — Major Savagery and Prophecy
    • Inner Light (morph) — Major Savagery and Prophecy, and also increases Max Magicka by 5%
    • Radiant Magelight (morph) — Major Savagery and Prophecy, and also prevents you and nearby allies from being stunned by stealth attacks

It seems there is a lot more utility for these skills than I initially realized. If I have overlooked anything else, please let me know.

Erickson9610

For completeness sake, I have updated the list in the original post to include the "While Slotted" effects from Item Sets. The list now includes:

• Item Sets
  • Armor Master — While an Armor ability is slotted, increase your Maximum Health by 5%.
  • Nobility in Decay — Reduces the cooldown of Death's Favor by 2 seconds for each Bone Tyrant ability slotted.

These Item Sets should be given the "Either Bar" treatment for the same reason that applicable Passive Abilities, Active Abilities, and Ultimate Abilities should function when the required skills are slotted on either bar. For Item Sets specifically, they would only give their 5 piece bonus when 5 pieces are currently equipped on the active bar, but the sets should check both bars for the slotted Active Abilities when the 5th piece bonus is active.

i11ionward

I want to do a little review on the While Slotted on Either Bar mechanic. I like the way this mechanic is done on Tome-Bearer's Inspiration, basically we passively get Major Brutality and Major Sorcery, but Tome-Bearer's Inspiration is not a "passive skill" that you put on the bar and forget about, you need to use it every 30 seconds to get the full benefit of it. I think Tome-Bearer's Inspiration has the perfect balance between casualness and annoyance from the constant rebuff. I would like to see more buffs in the game with similar mechanics.

derkaiserliche

i believe we will see a lot of builds then, where the 2nd bar is just a collection of buffs then and it will be very hard to balance.

On top of that oak soul would be completly useless then.

bar_boss_A

it is a hard pass from me. I have enough of all that simplifying the game. Revert the DK and NB changes as nobody asked for it and strip arcanist of half of its buffs and debuffs to bring it back in line. If I would want to play autocombat games I would start playing mobile games.

Erickson9610

I have compiled tables of all of the effects which can be gained by slotting a skill. Boxes in yellow require a particular skill line like Werewolf, a weapon like One Hand and Shield, or armor set like Armor Master or Nobility in Decay. First, here's the table for all of the Oakensoul effects, and which skills correspond to those named buffs:


Note that it is impossible to fully replace Oakensoul with "While Slotted" buffs alone. Here's a table of all of the other passive effects unique to each Class:


Some Classes have way more passive effects than others. Finally, here's the table of all passive effects which all Classes can take advantage of via non-Class skills and passives (save for Nobility in Decay, which is exclusive to Necromancers):


There are many "While Slotted" effects in the game, but only a handful of these can be slotted on either bar. Hopefully these tables help to visualize how much each Class may benefit from While Slotted effects, and maybe it'll help theorycrafters in the event more of these skills are made to function on either bar.

Erickson9610

I have updated the original post with the new status of "While Slotted" abilities for PTS v9.3.0. We saw many new abilities get the "While Slotted on Either Bar" treatment in Week 1 of the PTS — including Soul Harvest, Concealed Weapon, and Siphoning Strikes and its morphs.