Balance Changes

StaticWave

I was hoping the Sorc class set would help the class healing a little bit more lol. Idk about PvE, but it's probably going to be a dead set in PvP

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

I was hoping the Sorc class set would help the class healing a little bit more lol. Idk about PvE, but it's probably going to be a dead set in PvP

It's going to be a dead set for PvE as well, even if they allow it to crit (which is their most likely change ("buff") to the set they were discussing for this PTS).

Post nerf PoN is still stronger than the new sorc set and running PoN doesn't gimp your rotation by forcing you to run weak back bar skills on your front bar to somewhat consistently proc a set that was clearly designed for the front bar (This is from my first hand testing which others have also backed up from their own testing as well).

The set is another slap in the face for no-pet sorc for PvE (completely dead playstyle for 5+ years now) and sorc in general for PvP (being hard carried by the current proc meta).

Erikx

lol idk why I even hold out hope at this point. Why are balance changes so infrequent in this game? They are either insanely heavy handed or non existent. Like how is it that a game like Wow can make balance changes like once a week and are able to balance pve and pvp separately but this game cant? Is it because of the potato engine? Like why is it so difficult I really don't understand can anyone explain?

RoxyPhoenix

see? We are all speaking the same voice, we bring out the same arguments, backed up by the same experience and data. While some of us pick up forks and torches to express our unhappiness others challenge DEVs reasoning with hard-proven tests and logical thinking, we are all, at the and, equally ignored.

I think the most singular thing that we struggle with is the lack of acknowledgment.

MashmalloMan

Erikx wrote: »

lol idk why I even hold out hope at this point. Why are balance changes so infrequent in this game? They are either insanely heavy handed or non existent. Like how is it that a game like Wow can make balance changes like once a week and are able to balance pve and pvp separately but this game cant? Is it because of the potato engine? Like why is it so difficult I really don't understand can anyone explain?

Skeleton crew. I've speculated for a few years now. The past 2-3 updates is confirming it for me.

They're probably putting all their eggs in 1 basket for year 10 (next year), but after that.. coast.

Zabagad

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Skeleton crew.

As a non native speaker I have no idea what that is, but I think you mean to less devs with to less experience?

Small balance changes - like mentioned here in this thread - is not a rocket science at all.
Balance needs more configuration then real programming new stuff.
It could be done by a student if they only change some numbers.
If they have to add a buff here and there - or need a "vs. NPC or vs Player", tell it to a real dev and that should be no big manpower deal either.

With every update - just change a bit - read social media and forum for feedback. (and check internal data if they can)
I mean it's not hard to read and see who is just asking for OP bs and who has good arguments.
It's not hard either to checkout the perfomance of the classes (and sets).
Even with my data (I'm only observing PvP) I can see that there are some very clear points.

Then - minimum:
- buff necro a lot (btw I dont even own necro, but I have enough evidence that they are by far the worst PvP class)
- buff templar (btw I only use(ed) templar for some solo PvE content)
- nerf DK a bit
(PvE point - I'm not reading feedback for that) but if it is ok from the management - nerf arc a bit.

Then - if these changes get new feedback - check it and if nothing went totaly wrong:
- buff magSorc (yes thats my class)
- nerf NB a bit for PvP

What ever happens after these changes - start the next cycle (the student!) with reading feedback and check data.
If something was to much - change it back by 50%. If something was still not enough - do another 50%.
Do it step by step - but do a lot of steps and not 1-2 times a year.
After a while the student should even get a good feeling what kind of changes effect mainly PvP only, PvP and PvE and PvE only.

So - what I want to say here: You don't need much manpower to do balance changes.
The main part can be done by a student (or even 2) and some dev time once in a while....

Estin

Zabagad wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Skeleton crew.

As a non native speaker I have no idea what that is, but I think you mean to less devs with to less experience?

Small balance changes - like mentioned here in this thread - is not a rocket science at all.
Balance needs more configuration then real programming new stuff.
It could be done by a student if they only change some numbers.
If they have to add a buff here and there - or need a "vs. NPC or vs Player", tell it to a real dev and that should be no big manpower deal either.

With every update - just change a bit - read social media and forum for feedback. (and check internal data if they can)
I mean it's not hard to read and see who is just asking for OP bs and who has good arguments.
It's not hard either to checkout the perfomance of the classes (and sets).
Even with my data (I'm only observing PvP) I can see that there are some very clear points.

Then - minimum:
- buff necro a lot (btw I dont even own necro, but I have enough evidence that they are by far the worst PvP class)
- buff templar (btw I only use(ed) templar for some solo PvE content)
- nerf DK a bit
(PvE point - I'm not reading feedback for that) but if it is ok from the management - nerf arc a bit.

Then - if these changes get new feedback - check it and if nothing went totaly wrong:
- buff magSorc (yes thats my class)
- nerf NB a bit for PvP

What ever happens after these changes - start the next cycle (the student!) with reading feedback and check data.
If something was to much - change it back by 50%. If something was still not enough - do another 50%.
Do it step by step - but do a lot of steps and not 1-2 times a year.
After a while the student should even get a good feeling what kind of changes effect mainly PvP only, PvP and PvE and PvE only.

So - what I want to say here: You don't need much manpower to do balance changes.
The main part can be done by a student (or even 2) and some dev time once in a while....

The term would mean they don't have enough people to make changes outside of the current dev cycle. Just the bare minimum to keep the game updated with new content. Just take a look at U39 and see the bugs that were fixed. You'll notice that they're mostly minor issues like typos or animations for overland quests and not bugs that have affected gameplay for years. They just don't have enough people working on this game anymore.

I would hope that the 10 year anniversary would have something that would redeem both the game and team, but I've been hoping for a while now and got nothing.

grzes848909

Isn't their balance team literally just 2 guys ?

Panderbander

grzes848909 wrote: »

Isn't their balance team literally just 2 guys ?

Their balance team consists of two pastry chefs. That's why they're letting it bake.

VinnyGambini

Panderbander wrote: »

grzes848909 wrote: »

Isn't their balance team literally just 2 guys ?

Their balance team consists of two pastry chefs. That's why they're letting it bake.

The community literally tells you what to do.

1. Nerf procs
2. Nerf nb survivability
3. Indirect DK nerf by rework undeath
4. Buff templar and necro

You can find details in other posts. It doesnt need much analysis, everything was said already.

RoxyPhoenix

Every major issue with classes, skills, and sets was always highlighted by the community on these very forums. Countless posts have been made by experienced players, who dedicated their time and effort to point out the wrongs and offered well-intended and well-thought-out solutions. Most of the time it all falls on deaf ears or at least it looks that way because of lack of communication. I would feel much better if they straight up said "We won't do this" or "We can't have this" or even "sry guys we are DEVs we know our game better". I would absolutely have no problem with that. But every time they ask us for feedback and every time the feedback is ignored. Ironically, it also happens that the very thing we point out gets even more bloated to the point that it looks like they do the opposite of what we are suggesting.

mmtaniac

They won't apply every person feedback . World where's every feedback will be added to game we will have too strong everything and bosses will die in seconds. Every class will deal monstrual damage, you will never die in pvp. They need to consider more of our feedback and add changes more frequent but not add everything. People want's only buffs never ask for nerfs for something they like, i want nerf to templar execute ability and buff other damage skills. We need balance in damage in those skills.

Panderbander

mmtaniac wrote: »

They won't apply every person feedback . World where's every feedback will be added to game we will have too strong everything and bosses will die in seconds. Every class will deal monstrual damage, you will never die in pvp. They need to consider more of our feedback and add changes more frequent but not add everything. People want's only buffs never ask for nerfs for something they like, i want nerf to templar execute ability and buff other damage skills. We need balance in damage in those skills.

Not true at all, some of the most vocal people on this forum call for nerfs on classes they main. Heck, I called for nerfs on Corrosive Armor, Radiant Glory, and Grim Focus, and I use and abuse all three.

CameraBeardThePirate

Panderbander wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

They won't apply every person feedback . World where's every feedback will be added to game we will have too strong everything and bosses will die in seconds. Every class will deal monstrual damage, you will never die in pvp. They need to consider more of our feedback and add changes more frequent but not add everything. People want's only buffs never ask for nerfs for something they like, i want nerf to templar execute ability and buff other damage skills. We need balance in damage in those skills.

Not true at all, some of the most vocal people on this forum call for nerfs on classes they main. Heck, I called for nerfs on Corrosive Armor, Radiant Glory, and Grim Focus, and I use and abuse all three.

There's also a big difference between "implementing every player's feedback" and implementing feedback that's shared by a large chunk of players.

If a huge majority of players find something unfun, chances are, it's unfun.

MashmalloMan

Panderbander wrote: »

grzes848909 wrote: »

Isn't their balance team literally just 2 guys ?

Their balance team consists of two pastry chefs. That's why they're letting it bake.

This made me audibly lol.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

grzes848909 wrote: »

Isn't their balance team literally just 2 guys ?

Their balance team consists of two pastry chefs. That's why they're letting it bake.

This made me audibly lol.

as someone who recently started studying baking this made me groan

Trejgon

Zabagad wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Skeleton crew.

As a non native speaker I have no idea what that is, but I think you mean to less devs with to less experience?

Skeleton Crew means having bare minimum of manpower to have (in primary use a ship, in this context a game) operational.

boi_anachronism_

Zabagad wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Skeleton crew.

As a non native speaker I have no idea what that is, but I think you mean to less devs with to less experience?

Small balance changes - like mentioned here in this thread - is not a rocket science at all.
Balance needs more configuration then real programming new stuff.
It could be done by a student if they only change some numbers.
If they have to add a buff here and there - or need a "vs. NPC or vs Player", tell it to a real dev and that should be no big manpower deal either.

With every update - just change a bit - read social media and forum for feedback. (and check internal data if they can)
I mean it's not hard to read and see who is just asking for OP bs and who has good arguments.
It's not hard either to checkout the perfomance of the classes (and sets).
Even with my data (I'm only observing PvP) I can see that there are some very clear points.

Then - minimum:
- buff necro a lot (btw I dont even own necro, but I have enough evidence that they are by far the worst PvP class)
- buff templar (btw I only use(ed) templar for some solo PvE content)
- nerf DK a bit
(PvE point - I'm not reading feedback for that) but if it is ok from the management - nerf arc a bit.

Then - if these changes get new feedback - check it and if nothing went totaly wrong:
- buff magSorc (yes thats my class)
- nerf NB a bit for PvP

What ever happens after these changes - start the next cycle (the student!) with reading feedback and check data.
If something was to much - change it back by 50%. If something was still not enough - do another 50%.
Do it step by step - but do a lot of steps and not 1-2 times a year.
After a while the student should even get a good feeling what kind of changes effect mainly PvP only, PvP and PvE and PvE only.

So - what I want to say here: You don't need much manpower to do balance changes.
The main part can be done by a student (or even 2) and some dev time once in a while....

So yes i agree:

- Templar needs a buff
- Necro needs a serious rework
- I desperately want a sorc build that isnt pet dependent. Healing is an issue althought i dont know how to fix this because matriach is so good in pve and terrible for pvp

My problem ultimately comes when we talk about dks and blades. NB is utter gabage in 12 man already. It is arguably the hardest class to balance while maintaining the class style. They already nerfed swollow soul a while back. Nerfing its healing further would make it extremely hard to play in solo content. I honestly dont know how to fix this without it being disastrous for pve or pvp. Blade is a particularly hard case. Dk is an interesting case. I view the sustain as being a major problem for pvp, they can go almost indefinitely. Nerfing sustain to much is going to kill it for tanking. Id say nerf pen of certain skills maybe so that even with sustain they hit less hard but frankly they will just crutch on some of the current meta sets and the difference would be negligible unless they hammer it in which case they would no loger be viable as anything but a tank.

I really dont have an answer for this and honestly i dont believe the devs do either which is why they havent addressed a lot of it.

That said the issues with the other classes desperately need to be addressed and i think are pretty straightforward. Balancing pvp and pve has always been a struggle.

SandandStars

I am afraid the game long ago reached a point where it is not going to improve. One could speculate many reasons for why this may have happened.

For me what matters is that PVP class balance is not a priority. I see no reason to think that this will change.