So what is the difficulty people have with light attack weaving?

Wolf_Eye

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Like many other people, I have a physical hand limitation. I can do it, but not very well or for very long.

And it’s painful to hear someone tell me “well, have you tried practicing?”. Because it’s like they’re completely ignoring the whole physical limitation part of it. It’s like they’re saying “if you can’t do this, then you’re just pathetic and lazy”. And that hurts.

Isn’t this precisely why they released the Velothi Ur-mage mythic?

You can just slot this and you don’t need to LA weave.

The only limitations that exist are those you allow by not exploring & utilising the very viable alternatives available to you.

But that's still not "practising LA weaving". That's sidestepping the issue entirely by using a mythic so that you don't have to LA weave.

My point is, that there are people who think you can always get good at something just by practising, while ignoring that there might be other factors at play (like a physical disability). Can I use a mythic? Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that my original comment still stands.

I appreciate the suggestion, but my comment was about the philosophy.

Vulkunne

endgamesmug wrote: »

I just thought it'd be good to figure out what was going wrong for people struggling with this concept. For me I feel blessed that after utterly failing my first class which was mag sorc, i became better with my 2nd character a khajit stamblade which with that class it was part of activating skills and building ulti etc as an nb. So when i had to use that habit on other classes later down the track it wasnt a big deal, im very far from the na server so skills not going off and swaps not happening that goes on but i just keep on with it what else is there to do really but carry on as usual. With practice and repetition it just gets easier for me for everything, familiarity and deeper experience with understanding. Thats my 2 cents anyway 😁

LA is a luxury. If I can make it work I will otherwise I can still get things done without it. I don't think any different of myself or others for being able to LA proficiently or none at all.

Gibrans

Light attack weaving imo has never been a difficult thing to do. Ignoring physical disability most who don't LA weave either don't do it due to laziness/lack of care or lack of understanding of the game. The only interesting thing I've ever found about the whole weaving conversation is people who want it removed despite the fact you don't really need to be light attack weaving like a maniac until you're doing some of the hardest content in the game which I'm assuming most of the community isn't even attempting lol

Foxxal

Constantly spam clicking and weaving causes a lot of chronic pain and discomfort. I can't light attack spam and use abilities simultaneously. Thankfully the addition of Oakensoul and heavy attack Inferno Staff burn means I can now do good DPS without causing a ton of fatigue.

AstroST

Gibrans wrote: »

most who don't LA weave either don't do it due to laziness/lack of care or lack of understanding of the game.

Or just because it's very boring.
Imagine spending a couple of hours in a trial just clicking like crazy on your left mouse button. Not my idea of fun or interesting mechanic.
animation cancelling was a bug thay were unabled to fix, a mistake since the beginning of things.

LittlePinkDot

I find strict rotations boring.

But to the people with hand/wrist problems. Every try switching to controller?
Maybe it's the keyboard and mouse that's causing your pain.

LunaFlora

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I find strict rotations boring.

But to the people with hand/wrist problems. Every try switching to controller?
Maybe it's the keyboard and mouse that's causing your pain.

i use a controller and unsurprisingly it still hurts to light attack weave.

not everyone plays on pc and the people that do don't all play with mouse and keyboard. whenever i do play on pc i've always used a controller.

Warhawke_80

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I find strict rotations boring.

But to the people with hand/wrist problems. Every try switching to controller?
Maybe it's the keyboard and mouse that's causing your pain.

This is going to ramble so please bear with me...

while I personally don't have hand wrist problems....my issues deal with dizziness...in game for instance I have to walk (due to BPPV) I can only run short burst which is okay by me but hats off to my friends for being so patient when we group, also trying to play Guitar Hero while moving in combat is off the table so no LA weaving.

However switching to a controller has made life easier everything is right there so to speak I'm not tracking my hand left/right/up/down while moving in game...I think controllers is the answer to a lot of issues folks may have mine has been a godsend.

sarahthes

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I find strict rotations boring.

But to the people with hand/wrist problems. Every try switching to controller?
Maybe it's the keyboard and mouse that's causing your pain.

I find the controller worse because I have small hands. I do get hand/wrist/thumb pain from all gaming, not just ESO.

I still do ok in content LA weaving though, I cut down on the amount of raids I do partially to help with this.

Gibrans

AstroST wrote: »

Gibrans wrote: »

most who don't LA weave either don't do it due to laziness/lack of care or lack of understanding of the game.

Or just because it's very boring.
Imagine spending a couple of hours in a trial just clicking like crazy on your left mouse button. Not my idea of fun or interesting mechanic.
animation cancelling was a bug thay were unabled to fix, a mistake since the beginning of things.

Which falls under my "not caring" comment lol

LittlePinkDot

LunaFlora wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I find strict rotations boring.

But to the people with hand/wrist problems. Every try switching to controller?
Maybe it's the keyboard and mouse that's causing your pain.

i use a controller and unsurprisingly it still hurts to light attack weave.

not everyone plays on pc and the people that do don't all play with mouse and keyboard. whenever i do play on pc i've always used a controller.

I have to wonder what the heck is causing so much pain in people's hands?

My work is heavy lifting and squatting all day. If I had problems like that I wouldn't be able to work to make a living.

LunaFlora

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I find strict rotations boring.

But to the people with hand/wrist problems. Every try switching to controller?
Maybe it's the keyboard and mouse that's causing your pain.

i use a controller and unsurprisingly it still hurts to light attack weave.

not everyone plays on pc and the people that do don't all play with mouse and keyboard. whenever i do play on pc i've always used a controller.

I have to wonder what the heck is causing so much pain in people's hands?

My work is heavy lifting and squatting all day. If I had problems like that I wouldn't be able to work to make a living.

i am not able to work. i hope it doesn't come as a shock that disabled people don't all have the ability to work.

as others have said and i said in my first comment it's chronic pain.
and something repetitive like light attack weaving can cause that to get worse, specifically joint pain.

i have to wonder did you read anyone else's comments? because i have seen others explain why it hurts.

preevious

LunaFlora wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Theorically, would a built-in macro on a multibutton mouse that fire a right-click and then a skill 200ms later would be a violation of ToS?

That would help our disabled brethen, I think.
They'd weave without having to.

sadly we don't all play eso on pc so can't use that even if i wanted to. but macros are not allowed

Ah, yes of course, my bad. Console player would get the short end of the stick indeed.

Galeriano

LunaFlora wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I find strict rotations boring.

But to the people with hand/wrist problems. Every try switching to controller?
Maybe it's the keyboard and mouse that's causing your pain.

i use a controller and unsurprisingly it still hurts to light attack weave.

not everyone plays on pc and the people that do don't all play with mouse and keyboard. whenever i do play on pc i've always used a controller.

I have to wonder what the heck is causing so much pain in people's hands?

My work is heavy lifting and squatting all day. If I had problems like that I wouldn't be able to work to make a living.

i am not able to work. i hope it doesn't come as a shock that disabled people don't all have the ability to work.

as others have said and i said in my first comment it's chronic pain.
and something repetitive like light attack weaving can cause that to get worse, specifically joint pain.

i have to wonder did you read anyone else's comments? because i have seen others explain why it hurts.

Have You tried alternative options that doesn't involve using hands that much? There are people streaming online shooters competitively and they have no hands. Mouse+keyboard or controller are not the only two options possible these days.

LunaFlora

Galeriano wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I find strict rotations boring.

But to the people with hand/wrist problems. Every try switching to controller?
Maybe it's the keyboard and mouse that's causing your pain.

i use a controller and unsurprisingly it still hurts to light attack weave.

not everyone plays on pc and the people that do don't all play with mouse and keyboard. whenever i do play on pc i've always used a controller.

I have to wonder what the heck is causing so much pain in people's hands?

My work is heavy lifting and squatting all day. If I had problems like that I wouldn't be able to work to make a living.

i am not able to work. i hope it doesn't come as a shock that disabled people don't all have the ability to work.

as others have said and i said in my first comment it's chronic pain.
and something repetitive like light attack weaving can cause that to get worse, specifically joint pain.

i have to wonder did you read anyone else's comments? because i have seen others explain why it hurts.

Have You tried alternative options that doesn't involve using hands that much? There are people streaming online shooters competitively and they have no hands. Mouse+keyboard or controller are the only two options possible these days.

yea i tried not light attack weaving.
i would love getting the upcoming ps5 accessibility controller though it certainly won't make light attack weaving possible.

you asked this "I have to wonder what the heck is causing so much pain in people's hands?"

and did you actually get your wonder answered by my reply and other people's comments?
i don't need light attack weaving to play eso. so i don't need an alternative to be able to do it.

why did you mention people with no hands who play shooters competively? i have hands and chronic pain which light attack weaving worsens.


the post is "So what is the difficulty people have with light attack weaving?" and people like me have given answers.

you do not need to wonder what's causing people pain and you do not need to ask me if i have tried alternative options.

MudcrabAttack

I’ve been playing nightblade almost exclusively for several years, usually around 120 button presses per minute. The past several months I’ve been noticing discomfort in my wrist after a night trial session. One of my parents had to get carpel tunnel surgery in their 50’s, and I’d rather not push those particular muscles any harder.

You can bet the moment a build was released that lets you slow down to 6 light attacks per minute with no downside I jumped on it. I still hop on the nightblade occasionally for the fun of it, but hours of trifecta running can take its toll.

Paralyse

Gibrans wrote: »

Light attack weaving imo has never been a difficult thing to do. Ignoring physical disability most who don't LA weave either don't do it due to laziness/lack of care or lack of understanding of the game. The only interesting thing I've ever found about the whole weaving conversation is people who want it removed despite the fact you don't really need to be light attack weaving like a maniac until you're doing some of the hardest content in the game which I'm assuming most of the community isn't even attempting lol

Do a parse on a DPS toon on the 21m trial dummy without LA weaving, and another with LA weaving

When I do the same experiment i top out around 35-40k w/o LA weaving, so although it may not be "required" the difference is definitely noticeable in content, especially since most boss fights are not target dummies.

Gibrans

Paralyse wrote: »

Gibrans wrote: »

Light attack weaving imo has never been a difficult thing to do. Ignoring physical disability most who don't LA weave either don't do it due to laziness/lack of care or lack of understanding of the game. The only interesting thing I've ever found about the whole weaving conversation is people who want it removed despite the fact you don't really need to be light attack weaving like a maniac until you're doing some of the hardest content in the game which I'm assuming most of the community isn't even attempting lol

Do a parse on a DPS toon on the 21m trial dummy without LA weaving, and another with LA weaving

When I do the same experiment i top out around 35-40k w/o LA weaving, so although it may not be "required" the difference is definitely noticeable in content, especially since most boss fights are not target dummies.

I know there's a difference lol but again unless you're going for some of the hardest content you don't need to be weaving like a master. End of the day all arguments aside weaving is here to stay much to the dislike of people around here. This is one of those conversation that goes no where as it's never leaving, their attempt at "solving" the issue was Velothi and nerfing light attack damage and apparently people still aren't happy. Can't please everyone though so this is one of those topic that people will bring up until the servers go offline.

Tannus15

Paralyse wrote: »

Gibrans wrote: »

Light attack weaving imo has never been a difficult thing to do. Ignoring physical disability most who don't LA weave either don't do it due to laziness/lack of care or lack of understanding of the game. The only interesting thing I've ever found about the whole weaving conversation is people who want it removed despite the fact you don't really need to be light attack weaving like a maniac until you're doing some of the hardest content in the game which I'm assuming most of the community isn't even attempting lol

Do a parse on a DPS toon on the 21m trial dummy without LA weaving, and another with LA weaving

When I do the same experiment i top out around 35-40k w/o LA weaving, so although it may not be "required" the difference is definitely noticeable in content, especially since most boss fights are not target dummies.

there is a big difference between not light attacking at all, you don't generate ultimate for a start.

but still, can we dial back the hyperbole?

0 light attacks - 87k

with light attacks - 103k

bow is kinda rubbish for a test like this due to the hawk eye passive and there is 8k dps lost due to not having any ult gen on the 0 light attack parse, so realistically we're comparing 95k to 103k.

if you're not getting 80k dps then the problem is either your build or you're incapable of casting skills on cool down.

AzuraFan

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

But to the people with hand/wrist problems. Every try switching to controller?
Maybe it's the keyboard and mouse that's causing your pain.

Yep, switched to a controller a couple of years ago. If I hadn't, I wouldn't be able to game. But repetitive motion also happens with a controller. Pulling a trigger repeatedly puts strain on the elbow, for example. So I still have to be careful. But a controller has saved my wrists for sure.

Charon_on_Vacation

for everyone that wants his character to light attack weave for the benefit, but doesn't want to do it him or herself, there are plenty of mice that come with macro functions. their input data looks exactly the same wether its a button press by the user or a macro.
no, it doesn't let you fire a million abilities at once, like a few people think, but it will fire a light attack every time you press an ability.
you'll never have to think about it again, and your mouse will do the job for you.

BlueRaven

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

for everyone that wants his character to light attack weave for the benefit, but doesn't want to do it him or herself, there are plenty of mice that come with macro functions. their input data looks exactly the same wether its a button press by the user or a macro.
no, it doesn't let you fire a million abilities at once, like a few people think, but it will fire a light attack every time you press an ability.
you'll never have to think about it again, and your mouse will do the job for you.

This seems to both go against the TOS, but also would be beneficial info to many players out there. So strange.

Ingenon

Tannus15 wrote: »

there is a big difference between not light attacking at all, you don't generate ultimate for a start.

but still, can we dial back the hyperbole?

0 light attacks - 87k

with light attacks - 103k

bow is kinda rubbish for a test like this due to the hawk eye passive and there is 8k dps lost due to not having any ult gen on the 0 light attack parse, so realistically we're comparing 95k to 103k.

if you're not getting 80k dps then the problem is either your build or you're incapable of casting skills on cool down.

Thanks for posting this!

I see that the build uses the latest chapter mythic Velothi Ur-Mages amulet. How much you want to bet that ZOS will nerf the Velothi Ur-Mages mythic build next update? Just like they did the nerf to the Oakensoul Ring build, which also allowed folks to get decent DPS without LA weaving.

Warhawke_80

Ingenon wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

there is a big difference between not light attacking at all, you don't generate ultimate for a start.

but still, can we dial back the hyperbole?

0 light attacks - 87k

with light attacks - 103k

bow is kinda rubbish for a test like this due to the hawk eye passive and there is 8k dps lost due to not having any ult gen on the 0 light attack parse, so realistically we're comparing 95k to 103k.

if you're not getting 80k dps then the problem is either your build or you're incapable of casting skills on cool down.

Thanks for posting this!

I see that the build uses the latest chapter mythic Velothi Ur-Mages amulet. How much you want to bet that ZOS will nerf the Velothi Ur-Mages mythic build next update? Just like they did the nerf to the Oakensoul Ring build, which also allowed folks to get decent DPS without LA weaving.

The issue with all of this is there are few people who actually care about their damage spread...they certainly don't want to play Elder Spreadsheets Online....yet we have to conform just to please people that are Meta focused....it just seems to be a terrible way to do things.

ZoS is all in on streamers and 99.9% of the streamers are Trifecta runners playing the top 0.5% of content, and that just isn't reflective of the the average ESO player...yet the devs are all in on this and it leaves a huge amount of normal players out in the cold...and no one can just say well they should go play something else, because if they do...there won't be an ESO.

what I'm saying very ineloquently is that there has to be another answer throwing all your resources in a playstyle that few people play is just ridiculous in my mind.....I really wish a dev would weigh in on this @ZOS_Kevin could you ask if we could open a dialog thread like you guys did with the future of PVP?

Galeriano

LunaFlora wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I find strict rotations boring.

But to the people with hand/wrist problems. Every try switching to controller?
Maybe it's the keyboard and mouse that's causing your pain.

i use a controller and unsurprisingly it still hurts to light attack weave.

not everyone plays on pc and the people that do don't all play with mouse and keyboard. whenever i do play on pc i've always used a controller.

I have to wonder what the heck is causing so much pain in people's hands?

My work is heavy lifting and squatting all day. If I had problems like that I wouldn't be able to work to make a living.

i am not able to work. i hope it doesn't come as a shock that disabled people don't all have the ability to work.

as others have said and i said in my first comment it's chronic pain.
and something repetitive like light attack weaving can cause that to get worse, specifically joint pain.

i have to wonder did you read anyone else's comments? because i have seen others explain why it hurts.

Have You tried alternative options that doesn't involve using hands that much? There are people streaming online shooters competitively and they have no hands. Mouse+keyboard or controller are the only two options possible these days.

yea i tried not light attack weaving.
i would love getting the upcoming ps5 accessibility controller though it certainly won't make light attack weaving possible.

you asked this "I have to wonder what the heck is causing so much pain in people's hands?"

and did you actually get your wonder answered by my reply and other people's comments?
i don't need light attack weaving to play eso. so i don't need an alternative to be able to do it.

why did you mention people with no hands who play shooters competively? i have hands and chronic pain which light attack weaving worsens.


the post is "So what is the difficulty people have with light attack weaving?" and people like me have given answers.

you do not need to wonder what's causing people pain and you do not need to ask me if i have tried alternative options.

I think You mistaken me for someone else. i did not qsk what You are implying I did. I think You blended my comment with someone else's.

I also havn't asked have You tried not light attack weaving, I asked have You tried alternative options that doesn't involve using hands that much. I mentioned people with no hands playing competitive shooters to support my point that even with serious disabilities people can find workarounds and still be effective gamers.

Galeriano

Ingenon wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

there is a big difference between not light attacking at all, you don't generate ultimate for a start.

but still, can we dial back the hyperbole?

0 light attacks - 87k

with light attacks - 103k

bow is kinda rubbish for a test like this due to the hawk eye passive and there is 8k dps lost due to not having any ult gen on the 0 light attack parse, so realistically we're comparing 95k to 103k.

if you're not getting 80k dps then the problem is either your build or you're incapable of casting skills on cool down.

Thanks for posting this!

I see that the build uses the latest chapter mythic Velothi Ur-Mages amulet. How much you want to bet that ZOS will nerf the Velothi Ur-Mages mythic build next update? Just like they did the nerf to the Oakensoul Ring build, which also allowed folks to get decent DPS without LA weaving.

You don't need that velothi mythic to break 90k without light attack weaving. Keeping good uptimes and monitoring Your rotation is more important than weaving light attack inbetween abilities. Here is an example of 105k parse done without light attacks before velothi mythic was even introduced

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqqj70GmXz4

Also You may notice in the two parses linked before, that 103k parse with light attacks had over 9k DPS just from an ultimate where non light attack 87k parse was not using ultimate. You only need one light or heavy attack every 9-10 seconds to get that 9k more DPS on that 87k parse.

sarahthes

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

there is a big difference between not light attacking at all, you don't generate ultimate for a start.

but still, can we dial back the hyperbole?

0 light attacks - 87k

with light attacks - 103k

bow is kinda rubbish for a test like this due to the hawk eye passive and there is 8k dps lost due to not having any ult gen on the 0 light attack parse, so realistically we're comparing 95k to 103k.

if you're not getting 80k dps then the problem is either your build or you're incapable of casting skills on cool down.

Thanks for posting this!

I see that the build uses the latest chapter mythic Velothi Ur-Mages amulet. How much you want to bet that ZOS will nerf the Velothi Ur-Mages mythic build next update? Just like they did the nerf to the Oakensoul Ring build, which also allowed folks to get decent DPS without LA weaving.

The issue with all of this is there are few people who actually care about their damage spread...they certainly don't want to play Elder Spreadsheets Online....yet we have to conform just to please people that are Meta focused....it just seems to be a terrible way to do things.

ZoS is all in on streamers and 99.9% of the streamers are Trifecta runners playing the top 0.5% of content, and that just isn't reflective of the the average ESO player...yet the devs are all in on this and it leaves a huge amount of normal players out in the cold...and no one can just say well they should go play something else, because if they do...there won't be an ESO.

what I'm saying very ineloquently is that there has to be another answer throwing all your resources in a playstyle that few people play is just ridiculous in my mind.....I really wish a dev would weigh in on this @ZOS_Kevin could you ask if we could open a dialog thread like you guys did with the future of PVP?

There is always going to be a 'best' setup. it's the nature of the game. Even when all sets are balanced by the same spreadsheet (which ZOS does, they even say all the time in their patch notes whenever they adjust a set that they're adjusting the relative power to be in line with other sets).

I'll be honest, I don't care what sets you're running if you're not in my core group. Even if you're in one of my open runs, as long as you can pull your own weight and don't spend the entire raid dead, and we clear, I am not going to look at your setups and judge you. I only judge when there are problems. You don't have to please me unless you're trying out for my Planesbreaker or my vSE HM groups, basically. And you're not, so you don't need to please me, so you really don't need to take meta setups so personally. Will your damage improve if you use them effectively? Probably. But you'd be doing that for YOU, not for ME.

Finally regarding the streamers - looking at the current stream team members, only about 20% of them stream raids. The rest stream pvp and housing. Mostly housing.

Warhawke_80

sarahthes wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

there is a big difference between not light attacking at all, you don't generate ultimate for a start.

but still, can we dial back the hyperbole?

0 light attacks - 87k

with light attacks - 103k

bow is kinda rubbish for a test like this due to the hawk eye passive and there is 8k dps lost due to not having any ult gen on the 0 light attack parse, so realistically we're comparing 95k to 103k.

if you're not getting 80k dps then the problem is either your build or you're incapable of casting skills on cool down.

Thanks for posting this!

I see that the build uses the latest chapter mythic Velothi Ur-Mages amulet. How much you want to bet that ZOS will nerf the Velothi Ur-Mages mythic build next update? Just like they did the nerf to the Oakensoul Ring build, which also allowed folks to get decent DPS without LA weaving.

The issue with all of this is there are few people who actually care about their damage spread...they certainly don't want to play Elder Spreadsheets Online....yet we have to conform just to please people that are Meta focused....it just seems to be a terrible way to do things.

ZoS is all in on streamers and 99.9% of the streamers are Trifecta runners playing the top 0.5% of content, and that just isn't reflective of the the average ESO player...yet the devs are all in on this and it leaves a huge amount of normal players out in the cold...and no one can just say well they should go play something else, because if they do...there won't be an ESO.

what I'm saying very ineloquently is that there has to be another answer throwing all your resources in a playstyle that few people play is just ridiculous in my mind.....I really wish a dev would weigh in on this @ZOS_Kevin could you ask if we could open a dialog thread like you guys did with the future of PVP?

.

Finally regarding the streamers - looking at the current stream team members, only about 20% of them stream raids. The rest stream pvp and housing. Mostly housing.

Ah yes Housing.....

The true endgame.

Destai

If the skill system were more responsive, I could see LA weaving being more enjoyable. Even with being directly plugged into my fiber modem, I just don't get the performance I feel like I should. Combat can be super clunky at times; I feel like skills take multiple presses, animations happen way after the fact. Even auto-casting ground AOEs lags - I'll see the circle just hang out there even though I'm 3 skills past it. Couple that with all the stuns and whatever CC bosses have, it's hard to shoehorn a light attack in between it all.

DrNukenstein

It's great when you are using your damaging abilities, and doing animation cancels that make you look like you're attacking twice at the same time like an anime master.

When you are casting buffs or heals it is pretty immersion breaking, and the fact that it will cost enough damage for people to judge you is anti fun.