So what is the difficulty people have with light attack weaving?

Ragnarok0130

Oh lawd here we go again.....

Wolf_Eye

Like many other people, I have a physical hand limitation. I can do it, but not very well or for very long.

And it’s painful to hear someone tell me “well, have you tried practicing?”. Because it’s like they’re completely ignoring the whole physical limitation part of it. It’s like they’re saying “if you can’t do this, then you’re just pathetic and lazy”. And that hurts.

endgamesmug

Im not really understanding the concern around animation cancelling, its been mentioned a few times. I dont know if you guys lay down dots such as endless hail or wall of elements when youre on back bar, but if you do it enough it natually cancels when swapping back to front bar to do your direct damage. Just thought a hint at some insight on that would be helpful. The more you do things the better or more proficient you get, thats the way i look at it and knowlege really is power 😁

hartzfear

I honestly dont even get the "pain" argument unless you already have some serious injury from before. You literally have to press your mouse button once per second for weaving. If youre on PC there are plenty of addons that show you when to weave, so a single click actually always grants you near perfect timing. Clicking once is most likely even more reliable than spamming like crazy, even without any addons.

Feljax

To address the pain thing to those who may not understand due to them (I assume) not experiencing it.

Repetitive Strain Injuries (RSIs) are built over time. Essentially, highly repetitive motions, especially in more delicate areas like the wrists and hands, start to cause nerve damage over time. Some people are more susceptible to them than others. When you're young, you may not even realize that you're doing some damage. When you're older, it becomes clear that you did some things you shouldn't have in the past. One person may game their whole life and never have much of a problem and for others they develop issues when they're still young.

I'm 47 now, been gaming for a long time and developed wrist and finger pain while I was still in my 20s. It's manageable, but it doesn't allow me to play hard for hours on end. I have to limit my time. If the whole animation cancelling/weaving thing didn't exist in this game, I have no doubt I'd still have to limit my time but not as much as I currently do.

And I'll once again say that if the developers had quashed the issue when it first cropped up years ago, rather than embrace it, there wouldn't be this "skill wall" dividing us today. It's essentially a problem that didn't need to be.

validifyedneb18_ESO

I'm considering a return at the moment, having played at the highest level several years ago (Cloudrest).

Light attacks are the core of ESOs combat, through choices made almost a decade ago, they are the very underlying mechanic that makes ESO combat *work*, in the same way that WOWs combat would not work without the concept of the GCD (global cooldown).

This is therefore not so easily removed. And finding a core "dynamic" to replace it (without alienating the playerbase) would be challenging indeed. LA is what makes the combat fun, dynamic, skillful.

However there are significant disadvantages to it.

1. Some people just dont like it. I know people who have quit simply because when they finally got to hard enough content, they had to learn it, and they hated the concept. I used to run a Veterain trails guild - I helped gear and train people for harder content. Some of them simply never understood LA weaving, and would never be able to reach the necissary skill level required for the hardest vet content.
2. It's not very disability friendly - as many people here have pointed out. It's not great for RSI, and it has precise timings that make the highest attainable performance in the game obtainable only to people without motor control issues.
3. The mechanic is hard to explain. Infact when I last played, in Summerset, there was absolutely zero in game mention of cancelling (probably because its a strange thing to have to teach players through in game tutorials).
4. Players that *dont* LA weave do significantly lower damage. Having read recent patch notes I see ZOS are trying to fix this - which is great. Being dumped into a random dungeon with people that dont weave and therefore do 1/5th of your damage output is extremely frustrating, and its not really the fault of the newer players that they simply dont know any better.
5. Lag. Cancelling just doesnt work sometimes due to the engine. Now I consider myself to be pretty good mechanically. Good enough to do weapon-swap cancelling without thinking about it, and good enough to pull off bash cancelling when I am. But playing at that sort of level in fast paced combat, every now and again the cancel or swap fails, and it can completely throw you off. This leads to a feeling of unease as a swap could fail at any time.

TaSheen

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I'm considering a return at the moment, having played at the highest level several years ago (Cloudrest).

Light attacks are the core of ESOs combat, through choices made almost a decade ago, they are the very underlying mechanic that makes ESO combat *work*, in the same way that WOWs combat would not work without the concept of the GCD (global cooldown).

This is therefore not so easily removed. And finding a core "dynamic" to replace it (without alienating the playerbase) would be challenging indeed. LA is what makes the combat fun, dynamic, skillful.

However there are significant disadvantages to it.

1. Some people just dont like it. I know people who have quit simply because when they finally got to hard enough content, they had to learn it, and they hated the concept. I used to run a Veterain trails guild - I helped gear and train people for harder content. Some of them simply never understood LA weaving, and would never be able to reach the necissary skill level required for the hardest vet content.
2. It's not very disability friendly - as many people here have pointed out. It's not great for RSI, and it has precise timings that make the highest attainable performance in the game obtainable only to people without motor control issues.
3. The mechanic is hard to explain. Infact when I last played, in Summerset, there was absolutely zero in game mention of cancelling (probably because its a strange thing to have to teach players through in game tutorials).
4. Players that *dont* LA weave do significantly lower damage. Having read recent patch notes I see ZOS are trying to fix this - which is great. Being dumped into a random dungeon with people that dont weave and therefore do 1/5th of your damage output is extremely frustrating, and its not really the fault of the newer players that they simply dont know any better.
5. Lag. Cancelling just doesnt work sometimes due to the engine. Now I consider myself to be pretty good mechanically. Good enough to do weapon-swap cancelling without thinking about it, and good enough to pull off bash cancelling when I am. But playing at that sort of level in fast paced combat, every now and again the cancel or swap fails, and it can completely throw you off. This leads to a feeling of unease as a swap could fail at any time.

I'd call that a masterful summation. Thank you.

Paralyse

It is important to mention that much of the content in this game can be completed without needing to become proficient at light attack weaving. Heavy attack builds are quite viable still even in hardmode and trifecta content. (One of my guilds has all heavy attack DPS build clears of IR, GS, and DB so far, working on TTT.)

When I first started running trials we were doing Normal mode Sunspire and I think the highest parse in our guild group was probably 40k...cleared all bosses without too much trouble. So don't let all of the people who claim you need 90k or 110k parses to clear a regular Vet Trial get into your head too much.

Kesstryl

Dr_Con wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

It varies from medical conditions to hardware limitations, and personal reasons such as being boring or being unrealistic. Sometimes your location to server as well since high ping might be a bit problematic for weaving.

pretty much every response here.

this game has no toggle systems to enable auto light attacking as a passive, and takes it a step further by giving the player the choice to light or heavy attack. Another user above explained their experience in EQ2 where basically the only reason in EQ/EQ2 to auto attack was to get extra procs off on an enchantment, in ESO the item set procs are sometimes activated due to light attacks or heavy attacks. I dislike this design but there's really nothing to do about it without a massive redesign of many of the sets.

Heavy attacking as a main damage source has been encouraged by many low-mid tier raiding groups as a staple and pushed onto players who self-identify as "old" or "disabled" without any plans for them to try out any other builds. When speaking with many of these "old" and "disabled" players in-game I found that no one ever bothered to try and get them onto any other type of build, and that experienced players are more than happy to work with these players to come up with individualized plans to improve their DPS, while few must keep using the HA builds.

Light attacking between ability uses is a difficult concept to teach and the game does not try to teach players how to do it, or quantify the benefits of doing so in any meaningful way. Users are left to their own devices after being introduced via quick tooltips that go away after being shown once.

In reality, every player should appreciate other playstyles and know when it is appropriate/inappropriate to use certain builds. And ZOS needs to stop making it so that people need 10k hours to understand the DPS system in this game & how to respond when major changes happen.

IMO this combat guide really needs to be explained better in-game, with an advanced tutorial at one of the Fighter's Guild/Mage's Guild locations.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/newplayerguide/combat

Do you have carpal tunnel or repetitive strain injuries? You can't possibly think you know that those of us who "self-identify", or in my case (and many others) are medically diagnosed, are limited by our minds and can somehow push through the pain and disability we experience (on a level you will never understand) to somehow git gud. People with typical bodies and typical abilities simply cannot understand how painful repetitive motions can be for others.

Kesstryl

hartzfear wrote: »

I honestly dont even get the "pain" argument unless you already have some serious injury from before. You literally have to press your mouse button once per second for weaving. If youre on PC there are plenty of addons that show you when to weave, so a single click actually always grants you near perfect timing. Clicking once is most likely even more reliable than spamming like crazy, even without any addons.

What I just said in the above post

MidniteOwl1913

The mindless pew-button-pew-button really isn't for me. It's so boring that I can do it, but not for extended time periods. I'm ADHD and boring is a barrier to a lot of simple repetitive tasks. It was very freeing for me to find that at least in my case my DPS didn't suffer all that much in content when I went to a more flexible rotation. Interest helps keep me focused, focus helps my DPS. LA just doesn't work for me. It really is literally mind-numbing.

MidniteOwl1913

hartzfear wrote: »

I honestly dont even get the "pain" argument unless you already have some serious injury from before. You literally have to press your mouse button once per second for weaving. If youre on PC there are plenty of addons that show you when to weave, so a single click actually always grants you near perfect timing. Clicking once is most likely even more reliable than spamming like crazy, even without any addons.

There is more than one button required on the consoles. It's not all PCs.

LadyLethalla

300+ ping and having to press wired controller buttons twice to activate any skill now makes me extra glad for Oakensoul. Not sure what changed about 3 months ago that suddenly required me to press said controller buttons twice to get any skill to work, because it doesn't happen in other games and didn't used to happen in this one.

TaSheen

LadyLethalla wrote: »

300+ ping and having to press wired controller buttons twice to activate any skill now makes me extra glad for Oakensoul. Not sure what changed about 3 months ago that suddenly required me to press said controller buttons twice to get any skill to work, because it doesn't happen in other games and didn't used to happen in this one.

I'd kill for 300 ms ping.... Mine averages (on a good day - and there aren't many of those) 750. No bar swapping, no weaving.... Thank all the Divines for Oakensoul.

Wolf_Eye

Kesstryl wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

It varies from medical conditions to hardware limitations, and personal reasons such as being boring or being unrealistic. Sometimes your location to server as well since high ping might be a bit problematic for weaving.

pretty much every response here.

this game has no toggle systems to enable auto light attacking as a passive, and takes it a step further by giving the player the choice to light or heavy attack. Another user above explained their experience in EQ2 where basically the only reason in EQ/EQ2 to auto attack was to get extra procs off on an enchantment, in ESO the item set procs are sometimes activated due to light attacks or heavy attacks. I dislike this design but there's really nothing to do about it without a massive redesign of many of the sets.

Heavy attacking as a main damage source has been encouraged by many low-mid tier raiding groups as a staple and pushed onto players who self-identify as "old" or "disabled" without any plans for them to try out any other builds. When speaking with many of these "old" and "disabled" players in-game I found that no one ever bothered to try and get them onto any other type of build, and that experienced players are more than happy to work with these players to come up with individualized plans to improve their DPS, while few must keep using the HA builds.

Light attacking between ability uses is a difficult concept to teach and the game does not try to teach players how to do it, or quantify the benefits of doing so in any meaningful way. Users are left to their own devices after being introduced via quick tooltips that go away after being shown once.

In reality, every player should appreciate other playstyles and know when it is appropriate/inappropriate to use certain builds. And ZOS needs to stop making it so that people need 10k hours to understand the DPS system in this game & how to respond when major changes happen.

IMO this combat guide really needs to be explained better in-game, with an advanced tutorial at one of the Fighter's Guild/Mage's Guild locations.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/newplayerguide/combat

Do you have carpal tunnel or repetitive strain injuries? You can't possibly think you know that those of us who "self-identify", or in my case (and many others) are medically diagnosed, are limited by our minds and can somehow push through the pain and disability we experience (on a level you will never understand) to somehow git gud. People with typical bodies and typical abilities simply cannot understand how painful repetitive motions can be for others.

There's a long standing lie that has been pushed onto children through TV shows that if you just "tried" and "put your mind to it", you can accomplish ANYTHING. Anything at all.

And that's just not true.

There are physical limitations. There are mental limitations. And while everyone has different thresholds for what those limitations are, there's still a defined "ceiling" that you cannot breach no matter how hard you practice.

There's also this illusion that everyone's limitation is exactly the same, hence the phrase "If I can do it, so can you!".

This all just leads people into insisting that "disabled" people are simply people who haven't "believed/tried hard enough".

LunaFlora

preevious wrote: »

Theorically, would a built-in macro on a multibutton mouse that fire a right-click and then a skill 200ms later would be a violation of ToS?

That would help our disabled brethen, I think.
They'd weave without having to.

sadly we don't all play eso on pc so can't use that even if i wanted to. but macros are not allowed

SCP343

if you dont want to weave then dont. Simple as that . Light attacks are hardly 7% of your total dps so if you dont weave instead of 100k you will do 93k and its still enough for any pve content.
+you can play heavy attack builds or new mhytic that reduces your light and heavy attack dmg 99%
so its not like if you dont la weaving you cant play this game XD

LunaFlora

SCP343 wrote: »

if you dont want to weave then dont. Simple as that . Light attacks are hardly 7% of your total dps so if you dont weave instead of 100k you will do 93k and its still enough for any pve content.
+you can play heavy attack builds or new mhytic that reduces your light and heavy attack dmg 99%
so its not like if you dont la weaving you cant play this game XD

i've never done anywhere close to 93k
40k is closer to what i can do.

93k is not as easy to achieve as you think it is.

Turtle_Bot

For me its the combination of ping and poor server performance, pure and simple.

Some background

I can do LA weaving, used to weave back long before the servers/code got as bad as they have become (cleared MoL back when 18k was considered top tier dps (I was about 14-16k, even with my ping, 12k if ping spikes or performance got bad enough) and was progging the final boss on vet mode back then too) and I still try and weave whenever the ping is stable enough that I play my stamplar.

I've had builds tested by other players who live closer to the servers as have multiple friends of mine and while the builds all perform easily within 20% of the top DPS for players closer to the servers, for me and my friends, the 300+ (minimum) ping (it often spikes, a lot, and hard) means those same weaving builds perform at 30-40% of their peak power for me at best. The ping not only prevents weaving in any sort of reliable capacity (7-10% dps loss), it also severely hinders the ability to have skills fire off reliably when cast if at all (30% dps loss) and it prevents the use many of the top meta proc sets (zaan, whorl, relequen etc) that require light attacks to work to proc them (the rest of the dps loss). It has not been helped by the horrible state the servers and code have been in for far too long now and the numerous bugs associated with this.

There's nothing I can do to fix my ping, ZOS refuses to invest into a megaserver (or even a sub-server that allows for instanced gameplay (dungeons/trials/arenas) to be played more locally) for the oceanic/SEA regions and to get a low enough ping would require moving to the other side of the world (for a game that has minimal competitive factors to make this a potentially viable option to make a living off? this ain't a game like dota or CS where "going pro" is a potentially viable option to make a living from).

The ONLY thing I can do is use a VPN to reduce the amount of spikes I have to deal with, but that still leaves the bare minimum of 300+ ping/delay to deal with. The VPN used to help, but even now thanks to the state of the code in the game (and before when the servers got real bad), even using a VPN is not reliable for keeping the game stable enough to play at a level that is suitable for end game content using a traditional weaving build...

Low APM builds (Heavy Attack and oakensoul in general) were helpful to give my main enough reliable dps + cleave and enough of a defensive buffer to allow me to play the mechanics and pull my weight in end game PvE without having to be carried by the group. The build never granted me the full 100k dps people claimed due to the aforementioned performance issues with skill delay and bugs preventing skills (and heavy attacks) from firing, but it was enough to compensate for my ping.

I would love to run a traditional weaving build to play my sorc more as a class and not as a pet/heavy attack build (that would also require the devs to stop buffing pets and bring back no pet sorc alongside giving sorc back some actual cleave options that it used to have many years ago).
Playing my stamplar I know I am more than capable of playing a traditional weaving build, but the ping physically prevents this from being an option for me. Sure I could play my arcanist, but doing that basically means I just completely give up on my sorc (my main class of 9 years that I was finally able to somewhat bring back into end game content again with oakensoul) to do anything remotely difficult in this game.

BlueRaven

LunaFlora wrote: »

SCP343 wrote: »

if you dont want to weave then dont. Simple as that . Light attacks are hardly 7% of your total dps so if you dont weave instead of 100k you will do 93k and its still enough for any pve content.
+you can play heavy attack builds or new mhytic that reduces your light and heavy attack dmg 99%
so its not like if you dont la weaving you cant play this game XD

i've never done anywhere close to 93k
40k is closer to what i can do.

93k is not as easy to achieve as you think it is.

The thing about this thread is that there is an presumed assumption that people who are not weaving, are still doing all of the other mechanics, like bar swapping and timer monitoring. But from trial group experience, I find it’s the whole thing. The entire combat system as a whole is just not enjoyable to many people.

Maybe I am misremembering it, but I think back in beta, during interviews, the whole bar swap mechanic was presented as a “on the fly” role change concept rather than a part of a rotation.
Your healer goes down, your a dps but you have a heal staff on the backbar, so you swap over until someone can get the regular healer back up. That sort of thing.

That concept I love.

But there is a reason why the whole oak/ha build was so popular. The current combat system is not fun for many people. Light attack weaving is part of it, but it’s the whole thing.

LunaFlora

BlueRaven wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

SCP343 wrote: »

if you dont want to weave then dont. Simple as that . Light attacks are hardly 7% of your total dps so if you dont weave instead of 100k you will do 93k and its still enough for any pve content.
+you can play heavy attack builds or new mhytic that reduces your light and heavy attack dmg 99%
so its not like if you dont la weaving you cant play this game XD

i've never done anywhere close to 93k
40k is closer to what i can do.

93k is not as easy to achieve as you think it is.

The thing about this thread is that there is an presumed assumption that people who are not weaving, are still doing all of the other mechanics, like bar swapping and timer monitoring. But from trial group experience, I find it’s the whole thing. The entire combat system as a whole is just not enjoyable to many people.

Maybe I am misremembering it, but I think back in beta, during interviews, the whole bar swap mechanic was presented as a “on the fly” role change concept rather than a part of a rotation.
Your healer goes down, your a dps but you have a heal staff on the backbar, so you swap over until someone can get the regular healer back up. That sort of thing.

That concept I love.

But there is a reason why the whole oak/ha build was so popular. The current combat system is not fun for many people. Light attack weaving is part of it, but it’s the whole thing.

i use oakensoul the majority of my time playing eso and don't always watch timers.
the combat system isn't very fun yea

phileunderx2

For me, precise timed actions are difficult. Have been my entire life. Can't jump rope, can't play an instrument,can't touch type and so on.
I can maybe complete a few rotations but then I start missing.
It's a me thing. I can get better numbers with a heavy attack build but even have difficulty timing heavy attack weaves.
So not everyone can weave well no matter how much we practice.

Galeriano

preevious wrote: »

Theorically, would a built-in macro on a multibutton mouse that fire a right-click and then a skill 200ms later would be a violation of ToS?

That would help our disabled brethen, I think.
They'd weave without having to.

Yes it would be a violation and it also wouldn't help as much as many people think it would.

Warhawke_80

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Oh lawd here we go again.....

Yes...because if something is terrible

Say like trying to turn combat into Guitar Hero your community will never ever accept it and will always remind you.

If I had a nickel every time Someone said "I like ESO but can't play it because of the Combat" I would be driving my classic Jag in the south of France.

The hopeful news is I think the devs have gotten the message and are working on a change behind the scenes

Trier_Sero

I get around 60k dps with both HA and LA builds so why bother with weaving?

Jimbru

Combat is the most common reason I hear others cite as the reason they don't play ESO, and weaving is often specifically mentioned in that. Most players coming to ESO are used to games that have an autoattack for basic weapon attacks, while the player focuses on movement, skills and mechanics...you know, actually playing the game. But for some reason ESO has to be special in a bad way by requiring you to SINGLE CLICK FOR EVERYTHING! It's distracting, annoying, laggy, painful to those of us with aging reflexes and/or carpal tunnel...weaving is just plain bad for the game, and is long overdue to go away.

Ingenon

Trier_Sero wrote: »

I get around 60k dps with both HA and LA builds so why bother with weaving?

Congrats on your 60k dps with LA builds!

I'm getting less than that doing LA with the trial dummy, and more than that with HA build. On PS/NA, so no combat add-ons to tell me what I'm doing wrong on the LA to get less dps than the HA.

TheElderGamer

I got 90k with an arcanist w/o the Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet and I got 95k with the Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet. I can't get over 93k with a oaken sorc build. It is hard with the nerve damage in my hands and as soon as I find something that I can do damage with it gets nurfed hard. That is my major complaint ZOS gives stuff and take it away. Why put stuff in the game just to nurf it.

Wuduwasa13

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Like many other people, I have a physical hand limitation. I can do it, but not very well or for very long.

And it’s painful to hear someone tell me “well, have you tried practicing?”. Because it’s like they’re completely ignoring the whole physical limitation part of it. It’s like they’re saying “if you can’t do this, then you’re just pathetic and lazy”. And that hurts.

Isn’t this precisely why they released the Velothi Ur-mage mythic?

You can just slot this and you don’t need to LA weave.

The only limitations that exist are those you allow by not exploring & utilising the very viable alternatives available to you.

Warhawke_80

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

It varies from medical conditions to hardware limitations, and personal reasons such as being boring or being unrealistic. Sometimes your location to server as well since high ping might be a bit problematic for weaving.

pretty much every response here.

this game has no toggle systems to enable auto light attacking as a passive, and takes it a step further by giving the player the choice to light or heavy attack. Another user above explained their experience in EQ2 where basically the only reason in EQ/EQ2 to auto attack was to get extra procs off on an enchantment, in ESO the item set procs are sometimes activated due to light attacks or heavy attacks. I dislike this design but there's really nothing to do about it without a massive redesign of many of the sets.

Heavy attacking as a main damage source has been encouraged by many low-mid tier raiding groups as a staple and pushed onto players who self-identify as "old" or "disabled" without any plans for them to try out any other builds. When speaking with many of these "old" and "disabled" players in-game I found that no one ever bothered to try and get them onto any other type of build, and that experienced players are more than happy to work with these players to come up with individualized plans to improve their DPS, while few must keep using the HA builds.

Light attacking between ability uses is a difficult concept to teach and the game does not try to teach players how to do it, or quantify the benefits of doing so in any meaningful way. Users are left to their own devices after being introduced via quick tooltips that go away after being shown once.

In reality, every player should appreciate other playstyles and know when it is appropriate/inappropriate to use certain builds. And ZOS needs to stop making it so that people need 10k hours to understand the DPS system in this game & how to respond when major changes happen.

IMO this combat guide really needs to be explained better in-game, with an advanced tutorial at one of the Fighter's Guild/Mage's Guild locations.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/newplayerguide/combat

Do you have carpal tunnel or repetitive strain injuries? You can't possibly think you know that those of us who "self-identify", or in my case (and many others) are medically diagnosed, are limited by our minds and can somehow push through the pain and disability we experience (on a level you will never understand) to somehow git gud. People with typical bodies and typical abilities simply cannot understand how painful repetitive motions can be for others.

There's a long standing lie that has been pushed onto children through TV shows that if you just "tried" and "put your mind to it", you can accomplish ANYTHING. Anything at all.

And that's just not true.

There are physical limitations. There are mental limitations. And while everyone has different thresholds for what those limitations are, there's still a defined "ceiling" that you cannot breach no matter how hard you practice.

There's also this illusion that everyone's limitation is exactly the same, hence the phrase "If I can do it, so can you!".

This all just leads people into insisting that "disabled" people are simply people who haven't "believed/tried hard enough".

No I hear you man....I'm recovering from a major concussion (after having many smaller ones through work/sports) my family was told that I would be greatly diminished and in many ways I am...I found out first hand that Online gaming communities are not the place to regain your confidence ...I think knowing your limitations and working through that lane is best....and just ignore the Tony Robbins types that think if they insult you enough you'll see again.