Ranged vs Melee Magblade. Does range even exist?
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Weckless✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »So actually it looks like MR is close to what the other damage procs are offering when you take everything into account. In some cases it's an overall slightly higher tooltip but not by a crazy amount.
So ok I don't think it works to buff SS. Here's the problem I'm seeing, it's thematically dead, I'll explain.
It's in the healing set of skills for nb, say you buffed it for damage it would still only benefit from healing passives. At that point it's silly to be a better damage utility because it's not getting really any other buffs. Yeah you'd have a ranged spamable but to be honest then it needs other supporting passives or to be in a skill line with supporting passives.
I think in this someone looking at this would just have to admit that they are playing a class with a healing skill line and that's just now it goes. The proper way to look at this would be to take something from assassin or shadow skill lines and make it ranged but most if not all of those skills are usable and hard to think of replacing.
If SS is buffed in the way that's being talked about here it would really be saying hey let's take skills from the healing line and just make them more about damage. If ss was buffed technically to fit the theme correctly it would only be to buff the healing not the damage
The healing/ damage/ Tank thing with skill lines wasn't a thing with base classes. That's why veiled strike is in the shadow line, blur is in assassination. Power extraction is also in siphoning. As well as debilitate/crippling grasp, a dot. So it isnt going against the theme. So this isn't the case. They didn't start doing that until dlc classes cameEdited by Weckless on August 28, 2023 8:59PM1 -
Weckless✭✭✭Also look at sorc. Their armor buff is in storm calling, their heal is in daedric summoning, along with curse its delayed burst skill, and bound armaments is there as well. So what would sorcs tank/damage/healing lines be? None because that doesnt apply to base game classes.0
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Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
Actually he did say that he wasn't using swallow soul. It wasn't worth the waste of time.
For you other comment though. Yeah, totally agree with what you said about buffing swallow soul wont fix it. It will help definitely, and of course its gonna need more changes. Yup yup and yup. Buffing swallow soul still wont be enough, to make it strong. But that's proving that ranged magblade is so far behind, its almost forgotten.
I mained what we call a Mage Blade for several years. In PvP and PvE. But overtime it has just gotten worse and worse with no attention. with the new psijic skill line in summerset it was making a comeback, until ranged started getting nerfed *unintentionally* because of melee blades. So ranged is in a really bad state and everyone is crying how strong melee blade is. So its going to happen again if ranged gets no attention.
When that happens, I'll be unsubbing, and losing all faith.
See honestly I can't get behind a buff SS thread because who knows what that would lead to. I can totally get behind a rework NB to make ranged play possible. But yeah a few passives and skills would have to be reworked to get this to work correctly, not just SS
I know it's more complicated to say buff mageblade then try to define all of what that is but I mean it is what it is and that's what really needs to be done here. Also don't forget that to make this work melee blade would likely lose power in some places. I don't have a problem with that, just being clear on what we're saying here.
But yes I'm all for making mageblade work and redoing any needed skills and passives to make that happen in a balanced way.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »So actually it looks like MR is close to what the other damage procs are offering when you take everything into account. In some cases it's an overall slightly higher tooltip but not by a crazy amount.
So ok I don't think it works to buff SS. Here's the problem I'm seeing, it's thematically dead, I'll explain.
It's in the healing set of skills for nb, say you buffed it for damage it would still only benefit from healing passives. At that point it's silly to be a better damage utility because it's not getting really any other buffs. Yeah you'd have a ranged spamable but to be honest then it needs other supporting passives or to be in a skill line with supporting passives.
I think in this someone looking at this would just have to admit that they are playing a class with a healing skill line and that's just now it goes. The proper way to look at this would be to take something from assassin or shadow skill lines and make it ranged but most if not all of those skills are usable and hard to think of replacing.
If SS is buffed in the way that's being talked about here it would really be saying hey let's take skills from the healing line and just make them more about damage. If ss was buffed technically to fit the theme correctly it would only be to buff the healing not the damage
The healing/ damage/ Tank thing with skill lines wasn't a thing with base classes. That's why veiled strike is in the shadow line, blur is in assassination. Power extraction is also in siphoning. As well as debilitate/crippling grasp, a dot. So it isnt going against the theme. So this isn't the case. They didn't start doing that until dlc classes came
I think the person above kind of cleared this up which also backs up your statement and clarifies my confusion. They don't want just SS buffed they really want things buffed / changed in a way that would make ranged nb work and in that case I can support changing skills and passives from different lines as needed but not just SS.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Also look at sorc. Their armor buff is in storm calling, their heal is in daedric summoning, along with curse its delayed burst skill, and bound armaments is there as well. So what would sorcs tank/damage/healing lines be? None because that doesnt apply to base game classes.
Valid point however sorc is also the worst class to run this comparison against. Sorc basically screams insert weapon skill/proc set here to make up for grab bag of skills/passives with no real coordinated theme.0 -
Weckless✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Also look at sorc. Their armor buff is in storm calling, their heal is in daedric summoning, along with curse its delayed burst skill, and bound armaments is there as well. So what would sorcs tank/damage/healing lines be? None because that doesnt apply to base game classes.
Valid point however sorc is also the worst class to run this comparison against. Sorc basically screams insert weapon skill/proc set here to make up for grab bag of skills/passives with no real coordinated theme.
Okay well dk then lol
Leap, volatile armor, and coag are all in the same line lol. Damage, tank, healing0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Also look at sorc. Their armor buff is in storm calling, their heal is in daedric summoning, along with curse its delayed burst skill, and bound armaments is there as well. So what would sorcs tank/damage/healing lines be? None because that doesnt apply to base game classes.
Valid point however sorc is also the worst class to run this comparison against. Sorc basically screams insert weapon skill/proc set here to make up for grab bag of skills/passives with no real coordinated theme.
Okay well dk then lol
Leap, volatile armor, and coag are all in the same line lol. Damage, tank, healing
And that's an example of having so many good skills that there just aren't enough places to put them. Now I'm ok with nb getting this treatment while trying to get ranged. I just didn't see SS as the way to get there but if you're going to just make changes to multiple skills and passives to enabled ranged play then I'm on board.
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Weckless✭✭✭And if you nerfed MR just to buff swallow soul then it would be pointless because they would just end up in the same spot with no damage. Buffing swallow soul would have no effect on the strength of melee magblade because they dont use it, so melee magblade is irrelevant to this entire conversation. If you want melee magblade nerfed then make a thread about it but dont use it as a reason not to buff swallow soul because its kinda disingenuous.2
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Weckless✭✭✭And as far the healing goes except for sorc you can do that on any class. The strength of a class relies solely on its damage potential now because ever since hybridization every class (except sorc) has the potentialbto block cast burst heals with vigor and not die. Thats a core problem with the game now.0
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Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭And if you nerfed MR just to buff swallow soul then it would be pointless because they would just end up in the same spot with no damage. Buffing swallow soul would have no effect on the strength of melee magblade because they dont use it, so melee magblade is irrelevant to this entire conversation. If you want melee magblade nerfed then make a thread about it but dont use it as a reason not to buff swallow soul because its kinda disingenuous.
Buffing SS also has little effect on range blade lol. Its already been stated that one change wouldn't make rangeblade playable.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭And as far the healing goes except for sorc you can do that on any class. The strength of a class relies solely on its damage potential now because ever since hybridization every class (except sorc) has the potentialbto block cast burst heals with vigor and not die. Thats a core problem with the game now.
I believe I've pretty much always said having all three (healing, damage, mitigation) in one class was the issue. Just having 2 out of three on any class usually isn't too much of an issue.0 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »And if you nerfed MR just to buff swallow soul then it would be pointless because they would just end up in the same spot with no damage. Buffing swallow soul would have no effect on the strength of melee magblade because they dont use it, so melee magblade is irrelevant to this entire conversation. If you want melee magblade nerfed then make a thread about it but dont use it as a reason not to buff swallow soul because its kinda disingenuous.
Buffing SS also has little effect on range blade lol. Its already been stated that one change wouldn't make rangeblade playable.
Buffing swallow soul will make the class more playable than it is now. Yeah, I'd love to have better ranged stun and execute, but if I have 0 damage it wont matter anyways.
But like weckless mentioned, buffing swallow soul alone doesnt affect melee...and thats the end goal here, we want melee toned down without hurting range, and buffing swallow soul doesnt affect it in any shape or form.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »And if you nerfed MR just to buff swallow soul then it would be pointless because they would just end up in the same spot with no damage. Buffing swallow soul would have no effect on the strength of melee magblade because they dont use it, so melee magblade is irrelevant to this entire conversation. If you want melee magblade nerfed then make a thread about it but dont use it as a reason not to buff swallow soul because its kinda disingenuous.
Buffing SS also has little effect on range blade lol. Its already been stated that one change wouldn't make rangeblade playable.
Buffing swallow soul will make the class more playable than it is now. Yeah, I'd love to have better ranged stun and execute, but if I have 0 damage it wont matter anyways.
But like weckless mentioned, buffing swallow soul alone doesnt affect melee...and thats the end goal here, we want melee toned down without hurting range, and buffing swallow soul doesnt affect it in any shape or form.
You say more playable but be honest and just admit that the request for changes wouldn't stop there.
And if that's the case then the changes don't need to come one at a time because that's a recipe for who knows what in the end.
Buffing random skills with no plan that we know of is how the game got into it's current state. No thanks to more of that0 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »And if you nerfed MR just to buff swallow soul then it would be pointless because they would just end up in the same spot with no damage. Buffing swallow soul would have no effect on the strength of melee magblade because they dont use it, so melee magblade is irrelevant to this entire conversation. If you want melee magblade nerfed then make a thread about it but dont use it as a reason not to buff swallow soul because its kinda disingenuous.
Buffing SS also has little effect on range blade lol. Its already been stated that one change wouldn't make rangeblade playable.
Buffing swallow soul will make the class more playable than it is now. Yeah, I'd love to have better ranged stun and execute, but if I have 0 damage it wont matter anyways.
But like weckless mentioned, buffing swallow soul alone doesnt affect melee...and thats the end goal here, we want melee toned down without hurting range, and buffing swallow soul doesnt affect it in any shape or form.
You say more playable but be honest and just admit that the request for changes wouldn't stop there.
And if that's the case then the changes don't need to come one at a time because that's a recipe for who knows what in the end.
Buffing random skills with no plan that we know of is how the game got into it's current state. No thanks to more of that
Its not random, its literally requested. I speak for an entire population of a playstyle. People do play rangeblade, you just can't see that bc meta, is DK, melee blade, and warden. If you actually want to win PvP fights or not get outclassed in PvE, you cannot physically make Rangeblade work.
Buffin Swallow Soul will help, if you think it won't that's just your opinion. I COULD sit here and ask for changes to all these skills as a whole, but thats unrealistic thing for Zos to pay attention to.
I'd Rather take baby steps then to make the class to overpowered. That's the process of an equal balance. We are stating that melee blades can't fully benefit swallow soul, so why not fixing swallow soul first. If they buff ranged stun and ranged execute, melee blades will abuse the power. That's always the case with all playstyle, and it's even easier now with hybridization.
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Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
Its not random, its literally requested. I speak for an entire population of a playstyle. People do play rangeblade, you just can't see that bc meta, is DK, melee blade, and warden. If you actually want to win PvP fights or not get outclassed in PvE, you cannot physically make Rangeblade work.
Buffin Swallow Soul will help, if you think it won't that's just your opinion. I COULD sit here and ask for changes to all these skills as a whole, but thats unrealistic thing for Zos to pay attention to.
I'd Rather take baby steps then to make the class to overpowered. That's the process of an equal balance. We are stating that melee blades can't fully benefit swallow soul, so why not fixing swallow soul first. If they buff ranged stun and ranged execute, melee blades will abuse the power. That's always the case with all playstyle, and it's even easier now with hybridization.
I mean I have to of course admit that taking a dead and underused skill and buffing it will help add to the arsenal of the class. That's all fine and good but my problem with this scenario is that it's about working on something that will need more work to get done right on a class that needs to actually be balanced first and all this vs classes that are much closer to making other groups happy with a smaller amount of change required.
I like the idea of rangeblade and if just buffing SS would make it happen I'd be interested but it will need more to make it fully viable and so now I'm thinking about multiple changes and balance on a class that's already in need of a nerf.
I'd rather see the time spent on reining in the power of nb first or buffing some class that isn't as viable. That's just me but I see both sides of it.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »You say more playable but be honest and just admit that the request for changes wouldn't stop there.
And if that's the case then the changes don't need to come one at a time because that's a recipe for who knows what in the end.
Buffing random skills with no plan that we know of is how the game got into it's current state. No thanks to more of that
What? The inverse can be said for all that you've "added" to the conversation up until this point.
I've been struggling to find alot of substance to back up your points throughout the thread, but to assume someone's intentions when the original post is pretty clear it's talking about one ability just doesn't seem right.
I could, at this point, simply request you play the class, use the skill in regular PvP and report back your findings. Preferably with video. I'm just not that confident you'll be able to provide information to support not adjusting Swallow Souls damage to be in line with other ranged spammables (by the means of reworking or otherwise) unless you're fighting 17k hp toons in pve gear.
I already know @FoJul can provide plenty of video evidence to show that the abilitys damage just isn't remotely competitive with alternative abilities that currently are offered.
At this point, I'm asking you to do that. Back up your points with harder evidence.
Thanks.
I honestly just don't enjoy playing nb in that particular way but I did go check out some footage. It's correct that this ability isn't in line with other ranged spamables and could use a boost. That being said, nb is out of range with most classes and that also needs adjusting. I'd be fine with a change to SS after the class as a whole gets properly adjusted.
But I wouldn't want to see SS Buffed on the already overperforming spec that is currently nb.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »I honestly just don't enjoy playing nb in that particular way but I did go check out some footage. It's correct that this ability isn't in line with other ranged spamables and could use a boost. That being said, nb is out of range with most classes and that also needs adjusting. I'd be fine with a change to SS after the class as a whole gets properly adjusted.
But I wouldn't want to see SS Buffed on the already overperforming spec that is currently nb.
Thank you for moving the goal post and not thoughtfully supporting your points.
Really just said that it's not in line with other abilities, but doesn't need any adjustment. In the same breath said you just don't like the ability. Thanks for your input.
Cheers
I didn't say anything about the ability. I just said I don't like playing nb in that way meaning ranged. Tried it but it's not really my thing.
Nothing against ranged nbs or anything like that.
I just said the ability isn't in line with ranged abilities meaning that it could be adjusted but that this would be out of order being that nb as a whole needs adjusting first in my opinion.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
So with adjusting swallow soul not effecting melee and the overall kit nightblade has because the range ability sucks, why haven't you made a new thread about the concerns you actually have with the class?
So we probably have different ideas of what "effecting" the overall kit means.
I think it's important to always keep as much of the scope in view as possible when talking about making changes to the game so to me if I'm going to consider it then I'm ok with considering how it falls into the bigger scheme of things.
I don't believe I need to make a thread about a thing in order to talk about my thoughts on the thing if something relevant to it appears in another thread.
Honestly I've never created a thread on anything because usually it's already being discussed in one way or another and I can just comment on what other people care to talk about, which I'm ok with.
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Weckless✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »And if you nerfed MR just to buff swallow soul then it would be pointless because they would just end up in the same spot with no damage. Buffing swallow soul would have no effect on the strength of melee magblade because they dont use it, so melee magblade is irrelevant to this entire conversation. If you want melee magblade nerfed then make a thread about it but dont use it as a reason not to buff swallow soul because its kinda disingenuous.
Buffing SS also has little effect on range blade lol. Its already been stated that one change wouldn't make rangeblade playable.
It's a step in the direction and would at least satisfy some of us for now. It wouldnt be great i believe it would be playable0 -
Weckless✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »And as far the healing goes except for sorc you can do that on any class. The strength of a class relies solely on its damage potential now because ever since hybridization every class (except sorc) has the potentialbto block cast burst heals with vigor and not die. Thats a core problem with the game now.
I believe I've pretty much always said having all three (healing, damage, mitigation) in one class was the issue. Just having 2 out of three on any class usually isn't too much of an issue.
In pvp having good heals = tanky though. Nightblade doesnt have any mitigation passives and the only mitigation outside the standard ones in its kit is blur. All of its tankiness comes from healing and movement0 -
Weckless✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »And if you nerfed MR just to buff swallow soul then it would be pointless because they would just end up in the same spot with no damage. Buffing swallow soul would have no effect on the strength of melee magblade because they dont use it, so melee magblade is irrelevant to this entire conversation. If you want melee magblade nerfed then make a thread about it but dont use it as a reason not to buff swallow soul because its kinda disingenuous.
Buffing SS also has little effect on range blade lol. Its already been stated that one change wouldn't make rangeblade playable.
Buffing swallow soul will make the class more playable than it is now. Yeah, I'd love to have better ranged stun and execute, but if I have 0 damage it wont matter anyways.
But like weckless mentioned, buffing swallow soul alone doesnt affect melee...and thats the end goal here, we want melee toned down without hurting range, and buffing swallow soul doesnt affect it in any shape or form.
You say more playable but be honest and just admit that the request for changes wouldn't stop there.
And if that's the case then the changes don't need to come one at a time because that's a recipe for who knows what in the end.
Buffing random skills with no plan that we know of is how the game got into it's current state. No thanks to more of that
Thats usually how it gets started though. People advocate for a change like we are doing to help a dying playstyle, zos notices the issues and then they adjust and tweak things to try and bring it up a little. We dont have the data they have to make suggestions on the minor tweaks they make that they would take seriously. So I dont really get what your point is here. Youre saying we wouldnt be happy with one change and would keep asking for more and more until it gets out of hand, but then contradict yourself by saying its dumb to only ask for one thing and imply we should be trying to redesign the class from the ground up. [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 2, 2023 11:28AM0 -
Weckless✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
Its not random, its literally requested. I speak for an entire population of a playstyle. People do play rangeblade, you just can't see that bc meta, is DK, melee blade, and warden. If you actually want to win PvP fights or not get outclassed in PvE, you cannot physically make Rangeblade work.
Buffin Swallow Soul will help, if you think it won't that's just your opinion. I COULD sit here and ask for changes to all these skills as a whole, but thats unrealistic thing for Zos to pay attention to.
I'd Rather take baby steps then to make the class to overpowered. That's the process of an equal balance. We are stating that melee blades can't fully benefit swallow soul, so why not fixing swallow soul first. If they buff ranged stun and ranged execute, melee blades will abuse the power. That's always the case with all playstyle, and it's even easier now with hybridization.
I mean I have to of course admit that taking a dead and underused skill and buffing it will help add to the arsenal of the class. That's all fine and good but my problem with this scenario is that it's about working on something that will need more work to get done right on a class that needs to actually be balanced first and all this vs classes that are much closer to making other groups happy with a smaller amount of change required.
I like the idea of rangeblade and if just buffing SS would make it happen I'd be interested but it will need more to make it fully viable and so now I'm thinking about multiple changes and balance on a class that's already in need of a nerf.
I'd rather see the time spent on reining in the power of nb first or buffing some class that isn't as viable. That's just me but I see both sides of it.
[snip] Nobody said anything about other classes or playstyles not being adjusted or this happening at the expense of anything else. One adjustment to a skill wont take away from other classes and whether you think its a good idea or not it would make us happy. [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 2, 2023 11:29AM0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »And if you nerfed MR just to buff swallow soul then it would be pointless because they would just end up in the same spot with no damage. Buffing swallow soul would have no effect on the strength of melee magblade because they dont use it, so melee magblade is irrelevant to this entire conversation. If you want melee magblade nerfed then make a thread about it but dont use it as a reason not to buff swallow soul because its kinda disingenuous.
Buffing SS also has little effect on range blade lol. Its already been stated that one change wouldn't make rangeblade playable.
It's a step in the direction and would at least satisfy some of us for now. It wouldnt be great i believe it would be playable
After checking out some videos I have come to believe it would definitely help. That's why I moved over to thinking melee blade needs some adjustments first though.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »And as far the healing goes except for sorc you can do that on any class. The strength of a class relies solely on its damage potential now because ever since hybridization every class (except sorc) has the potentialbto block cast burst heals with vigor and not die. Thats a core problem with the game now.
I believe I've pretty much always said having all three (healing, damage, mitigation) in one class was the issue. Just having 2 out of three on any class usually isn't too much of an issue.
In pvp having good heals = tanky though. Nightblade doesnt have any mitigation passives and the only mitigation outside the standard ones in its kit is blur. All of its tankiness comes from healing and movement
Well actually it's combined heals with crit but also blue giving 20 percent and roll dodges costing less when hit with aoes. This makes a db, leap, etc just so much less effective and sets up cheaper rolls for the single target stuff. Not saying it's crazy op but that it's a lot of mitigation potential.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »And if you nerfed MR just to buff swallow soul then it would be pointless because they would just end up in the same spot with no damage. Buffing swallow soul would have no effect on the strength of melee magblade because they dont use it, so melee magblade is irrelevant to this entire conversation. If you want melee magblade nerfed then make a thread about it but dont use it as a reason not to buff swallow soul because its kinda disingenuous.
Buffing SS also has little effect on range blade lol. Its already been stated that one change wouldn't make rangeblade playable.
Buffing swallow soul will make the class more playable than it is now. Yeah, I'd love to have better ranged stun and execute, but if I have 0 damage it wont matter anyways.
But like weckless mentioned, buffing swallow soul alone doesnt affect melee...and thats the end goal here, we want melee toned down without hurting range, and buffing swallow soul doesnt affect it in any shape or form.
You say more playable but be honest and just admit that the request for changes wouldn't stop there.
And if that's the case then the changes don't need to come one at a time because that's a recipe for who knows what in the end.
Buffing random skills with no plan that we know of is how the game got into it's current state. No thanks to more of that
Thats usually how it gets started though. People advocate for a change like we are doing to help a dying playstyle, zos notices the issues and then they adjust and tweak things to try and bring it up a little. We dont have the data they have to make suggestions on the minor tweaks they make that they would take seriously. So I dont really get what your point is here. Youre saying we wouldnt be happy with one change and would keep asking for more and more until it gets out of hand, but then contradict yourself by saying its dumb to only ask for one thing and imply we should be trying to redesign the class from the ground up. [snip]
I just try to look at the bigger picture. And again after looking at someone playing as well as they could with the skill I think buffing it would be fine but that for the sake of even maybe hitting balance that melee nb power levels need adjustments.
Honestly it probably sounds like I'm spinning a lot of plates because good answers to complex problems aren't always simple. And talking to anyone that's trying to over simplify the problem and solution makes it seem like my thoughts are just out of nowhere. I mean who knows but that's my take.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 2, 2023 11:32AM0 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭Swallow Soul dmg tooltip is ranged instant cast spammable standard tooltip, its dmg shouldnt get buffed because it is already the same as other instant cast ranged spammables. The heal is 36% of dmg every 2 seconds for 10 seconds, althought it is of course useless to have a 10 second HoT when you spam the skill because you get only 1 stack/only first tick of it. The healing probably doesnt get double hit by battlespirit, healing by caused dmg doesnt get reduced by battlespirit a second time i think. At least it should be that way.
But I remember not that long ago, probably until update 35 when concealed was buffed, most mag nb builds except gankers and bombers were swallow soul nightblades. Swallow Soul could get buffed a bit, but not the tooltip dmg because that is balanced and range mag nb should be another option and not the@Bushido2513 Stamsorc's crystal weapon is ranged or melee, yes, but what does MAGsorc have? They have force pulse is what they have, lol. And DK? Are we talking about poop rocks, as DK calls it?
I'm not necessarily against buffing swallow soul but it's going to need to be just a different skill entirely. Because the last thing NB needs is a ranged spammable that heals and does decent damage. Terrible idea. Incidentally the reason why it does bad damage is because it heals. And you could say this is a PvP complaint... But okay, so why does a PvEblade need a spammable that heals either?
Mostly though I just disagree with the popular opinion that every class ability needs to be better than it's weaponline alternative. People seem to think this makes classes more thematic or whatever... Maybe... But it also makes them all the same.
Also, NB has a ranged execute. They have shadow image and shadowy disguise. They have a massive burst tool that can be used at range and stacks off of light attacks. I think it's more than a stretch to say that NB isn't capable of fighting at range. Why? Because they don't want to slot a non-class spammable? I mean, are we comparing rangeblade to other ranged classes or only to meleeblade? Nobody can keep up with meleeblade. Join the club.
Buff the damage on swallow soul and the next thing requested will be "well it needs to put people off balance too, because we're losing out on 10% damage and lack a ranged stun."
Class skills beeing better than weapon skills doesnt make classes all the same, what it does is make weapon skilllines almost useless. Magblade, templar, magdk, magsorc and arcanist all use almost exclusively class skills, but they all feel different. But I remember people used to speak about „The stam class“, because the same 4 skills(dizzy swing, executioner, momentum and vigor) and 2 ultimates(dawnbreaker, shield wall) were used by most stam classes, only vigor by all of them.
Weapon skills dont make classes different much, but when the wpn skills are worse than class skills for every class than why do they even exist?
They make Stamdens and Stamcros and some Stamsorcs use 2h for dizzy swing insteat of dw like most other classes.Bushido2513 wrote: »Also to your point about the other skills listed, I believe the point was that these skills were at least tweaked to make them a bit more useable even if it didn't always work out well. SS hasn't been tweaked in a while.
Not sure what you mean. You mean the bit about crystal, whip, and jabs? If so, then I gotta stick to my guns. And again this isn't like a trigger for me I respect the fact that OP wants what they want. I just don't think those examples were very good.
Crystal Weapon is a great skill and I use it from range on my stamsorc. But it was absolutely worth mentioning that when crystal weapon was introduced stamsorc had NOTHING. And even now magsorc, unless they run crystal, has NOTHING. And that is not where NB is.
And Whip isn't even a spammable. Like it is but it isn't, ya know? You can spam it if you're in corrosive or whatever but what most DKs spam is FoO. And that only works as a spammable because of how busted DK is right now. I would be against giving DK a ranged spammable just like I'm against giving NB a ranged spammable. In fact I'm already against FoO acting as a ranged spammable. The real stamDK spammable is poop rocks (as DKs call it.) So again... Not sure this was a great example.
And I'm not even sure why Jabs got brought up exactly because that was obviously nerfed and templars are still VERY upset about it lol.
So what DKs have is an arguably weak AoE spammable (FoO,) that works for them because it builds stacks for Whip which is their other spammable but it only does good damage after building some stacks.
Half of sorcs have a spammable at all the other half arguably don't.
Templars spammable is AoE like FoO, recently got nerfed to do less damage accordingly, and their single target one has a cast time so they don't like it.
Necros don't like their spammable.
Wardens don't like their spammable.
So, y'know, I DO see the problem with swallow soul. But NBs aren't alone in this, and as a matter of fact at least they do HAVE a spammable. It's probably the best spammable in the game. By a mile.
I can see why some people might be of the opinion that "well, there's no harm in asking." Sure, that's valid, ask away. But the fact that this may be reasonable doesn't necessarily mean that differing opinions aren't reasonable too. We just have to reasonably disagree. Which I'm fine doing.
I think people know I'm down for a scrappy argument and they also know I check the forums a lot and I'm responsive. I accidently become the focus of defending certain things... They aren't all hot button issues for me. Sometimes I'm just casting my vote, ya know? I don't see why changing my mind is so important to some people. It isn't as though my opinion is actually holding anyone back from getting what they want.
Whip definitely is a spammable and at least the flamelash morph also gets used as a spammable. Molten whip is also useable as spammable and has a tooltip like a spammable, It only doesnt get spammed because it was/is more effektive to use it as a burst tool. Flames of oblivion tooltip is about 25% mower than molten whip tooltip, when molten whip stacks increased dmg by 33% it was more dmg to use 3x FoO > molten whip than to spam molten whip, now that stacks are only 20% it is slightly lower overall dmg but can still be used because better for burst and it also increases wpn dmg usw. But actually shouldnt matter that much if you spam whip or get use 3*FoO than Molten whip.
That doesnt make FoO a real spammable, without stacks of molten whip (with flame lash) it isnt and it isnt a ranged spammable because it has only 15m range. You can also get stacks by using Noxious breath(same dmg, higher cost but as stam (hybrid) dk when you have more stam than mag maybe easier to sustain), venemous claw(the same) or chain(against immune targets it is for free and some zerglings spam it). But as a DK main I dont need a ranged spammable, most other offensive class skills are meele so I have to play meele anyway even with ranged spammable.Bushido2513 wrote: »
I think Nightblade mains melee or not, can all agree to one thing. That is, that the merciless resolve's tooltip scaling is way to strong.
I'd rather take the feelings or agreement out o the picture and just say what is the tooltip / damage done vs other similar skills? I mostly deal with sorc but I'd have to say I do believe the tooltip is higher than other similar skills which I believe are Blastbones, Shalks, POL, Charged whip but I don't have the numbers to say for sure.
You take merciless resolve out of the picture and Nightblade is nothing. A balance to the class would be unironically buffing the class, minus Merciless resolve.
Literally the only thing making NB too strong is Merciless Resolve. You can't change my mind.
Back up for a second. You can't just take away a burst damage effect, every class gets one. That being said you could either tone it down or replace it with something else. So if you lower the tooltip of merciless or say replace it with POL I believe nbs would still be killing people.
In some cases I also think their strength comes from good heals and evasion as well. Also even if you lowered the tooltip or anything like that you'd have to account for people playing different to account for the change. There have definitely been some instances where ZOS nerfed something only to birth a playstyle previously not seen because nobody had to figure it out. Based on these things nerfing just MR might bring nb in line but can't say for sure.
I think @Dekrypted was right when he said, "As controversial as the high isle patch was with how powerful oakensoul was, with every class being strong due to the ring and conditions on the skills at the time of that patch, the game was actually fun."
Either everyone be nerfed, or everyone be strong. The game was definitely fun. During this time with oaken...any build could be affective. The only class that abused Oaken was Dk's but they are always abusing sets, like in the past Titanborn/Ironblood...or like right now Acuity. Thats another topic tho.
I still say it depends on what your idea of fun was and what class you were playing. Oh and let's not forget if you actually paid to get the ring in the first place.
I didn't find it to be as fun because you just kept running into dks waiting to pop corrosive and nbs hitting harder than they ever hard. The only fun I had in that one was running into a sorc that had atro on cooldown, that actually made me laugh.
I'm happy with an everybody can die meta as long as everyone has a fair chance. Should be like the wild west where everyone has a gun and anyone can equally die. Oakensoul was like I have a gun, that other guy is a terminator, and that other guy over there is a liquid metal terminator that feels my bullets but can usually just shrug them off.
DK's were the only class 100% unkillable with oakensoul...It was a very specific build which you had to have everything in to ult gen.. Keep in mind Corrosive is the issue here, not oakensoul.
What I mean by I was having fun, was that I could actually play a rangeblade WITH SWALLOW SOUL. Specifically SWALLOW SOUL. A class skill. I 100% am not lying when I say I removed Merciless Resolve off of my bar HAPPILY during the oaken meta. I replaced it with a dot/hot 2 in one skill known has Structered Entropy. I can send build link if you want.
That being said, I didn't need assassins will burst to carry my damage. I had so much fun, even fighting Corro DKs...cause they could still be countered LOL...I have no idea what direction your trying to go to. But I will say again, BUFF SWALLOW SOUL.
Corrosive armor doesnt make DK 100% unkillable, when you get zerged down by 10+ players, you still die instantly while dodge rolling with corrosive armor. If you fight 3-4 average Zerglings, you often still get killed in corrosive armor before you can finish your burst combo. Most dot ticks are lower or only slightly higher than 3% of your max hp so they are not reduced by corrosive armor. Dot builds can pressure a dk in corrosive armor almost as much as without it and kill him or at least keep him defensive, Bowsorcs can do it from range and kite the dk while pressuring.Bushido2513 wrote: »
Before I read all this, I'm not saying remove merciless LOL. I'm saying without our burst we do no damage. Just take your NB build rn and remove merciless resolve. Your not killing anything without proc sets.
Eh you're getting a little murky here I mean most of the only sets worn these days are proc sets even if it's something like rallying cry.
I mean you're basically saying take my build, remove merciless and don't put any proc sets in play to make up for lost damage and I mean yeah I wouldn't kill much but most any class would have the same issue.
I'm not saying merciless isn't the highest tooltip of all delayed damage tooltips, it might be. I'm saying that you could nerf the damage and nb would still be an overall higher end threat because it has the most well rounded toolkit.
But in trying to say what nb strength is or isn't you have to make a legit argument. I mean if you take MR away I'm just going to put some other damage build/setup in its place and still get the kills. What you didn't take away was any passives that boost damage/evasion and the awesome burst heal. So I can still create a lot of pressure, have good survival, and probably secure kills, just in a different way.
I'd say the overall damage OR the healing of nb need to be toned down to bring it in line, but if you just nerf merciless it would probably just morph into another build that was nearly or just as lethal .Bushido2513 wrote: »
Before I read all this, I'm not saying remove merciless LOL. I'm saying without our burst we do no damage. Just take your NB build rn and remove merciless resolve. Your not killing anything without proc sets.
Eh you're getting a little murky here I mean most of the only sets worn these days are proc sets even if it's something like rallying cry.
I mean you're basically saying take my build, remove merciless and don't put any proc sets in play to make up for lost damage and I mean yeah I wouldn't kill much but most any class would have the same issue.
I'm not saying merciless isn't the highest tooltip of all delayed damage tooltips, it might be. I'm saying that you could nerf the damage and nb would still be an overall higher end threat because it has the most well rounded toolkit.
But in trying to say what nb strength is or isn't you have to make a legit argument. I mean if you take MR away I'm just going to put some other damage build/setup in its place and still get the kills. What you didn't take away was any passives that boost damage/evasion and the awesome burst heal. So I can still create a lot of pressure, have good survival, and probably secure kills, just in a different way.
I'd say the overall damage OR the healing of nb need to be toned down to bring it in line, but if you just nerf merciless it would probably just morph into another build that was nearly or just as lethal .
Your still not talking about SWALLOW SOUL.
Anyways, I'm fixing post TT , with argonian with 0 passives, 0 cp, 0 attributes...I just slapped on each class with no anything making the damage differentiate.
Here are the results.
Now, if I have to do this again with spammables, just let me know.
Nightblades are not really using free damage procs. Unless they are ganking. Most Hybrid blades are stat dense. Hybrid blades being the Melee Culprits, that keep getting buffed.
DKs, get carried by their dot pressure and massive survivability, they can live without burst. Sorcs survivability is questionable, yet there damage is on par. Necros lack both burst and pressure. Can't really argue with that. Templar burst thru PotL is non-existent due to the recent nerf 3 patches ago. So they have been making it work with no burst. Arcanist have no burst, yet they still kill things. Wardens have ok ish burst, but not 20k hits lol.
But, the main Gripe on this thread, was that swallow soul needs to be competent. Not merciless.
Eso hub website also shows tooltips for cp160 chars without any passives, atribute points, cp and set pieces.
Your Subterrain Assault, Blastbones and Cephaliarchs Flail tooltips are the same as in Eso hub, while your whip, crystal frags and merciless resolve tooltips are 50-100% higher.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Swallow Soul dmg tooltip is ranged instant cast spammable standard tooltip, its dmg shouldnt get buffed because it is already the same as other instant cast ranged spammables. The heal is 36% of dmg every 2 seconds for 10 seconds, althought it is of course useless to have a 10 second HoT when you spam the skill because you get only 1 stack/only first tick of it. The healing probably doesnt get double hit by battlespirit, healing by caused dmg doesnt get reduced by battlespirit a second time i think. At least it should be that way.
But I remember not that long ago, probably until update 35 when concealed was buffed, most mag nb builds except gankers and bombers were swallow soul nightblades. Swallow Soul could get buffed a bit, but not the tooltip dmg because that is balanced and range mag nb should be another option and not the
So both of the affects aren't really all that useful in pvp or pve. The heal is bad and the skill is clunky at the moment. I still have all my other views on things that should happen before this was buffed. That being said if the skill was to get buffed I'd say maybe take away some of the delay in casting and add some type of secondary effect of damage to at least one of the morphs to make it competitive with other ranged spamables. I mean we're probably mostly talking about crushing shock but when you add in the utility and the small but noteworthy damage from status effects it beats out SS by a decent range I would
guess.0 -
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FoJul✭✭✭✭Swallow Soul dmg tooltip is ranged instant cast spammable standard tooltip, its dmg shouldnt get buffed because it is already the same as other instant cast ranged spammables. The heal is 36% of dmg every 2 seconds for 10 seconds, althought it is of course useless to have a 10 second HoT when you spam the skill because you get only 1 stack/only first tick of it. The healing probably doesnt get double hit by battlespirit, healing by caused dmg doesnt get reduced by battlespirit a second time i think. At least it should be that way.
But I remember not that long ago, probably until update 35 when concealed was buffed, most mag nb builds except gankers and bombers were swallow soul nightblades. Swallow Soul could get buffed a bit, but not the tooltip dmg because that is balanced and range mag nb should be another option and not the@Bushido2513 Stamsorc's crystal weapon is ranged or melee, yes, but what does MAGsorc have? They have force pulse is what they have, lol. And DK? Are we talking about poop rocks, as DK calls it?
I'm not necessarily against buffing swallow soul but it's going to need to be just a different skill entirely. Because the last thing NB needs is a ranged spammable that heals and does decent damage. Terrible idea. Incidentally the reason why it does bad damage is because it heals. And you could say this is a PvP complaint... But okay, so why does a PvEblade need a spammable that heals either?
Mostly though I just disagree with the popular opinion that every class ability needs to be better than it's weaponline alternative. People seem to think this makes classes more thematic or whatever... Maybe... But it also makes them all the same.
Also, NB has a ranged execute. They have shadow image and shadowy disguise. They have a massive burst tool that can be used at range and stacks off of light attacks. I think it's more than a stretch to say that NB isn't capable of fighting at range. Why? Because they don't want to slot a non-class spammable? I mean, are we comparing rangeblade to other ranged classes or only to meleeblade? Nobody can keep up with meleeblade. Join the club.
Buff the damage on swallow soul and the next thing requested will be "well it needs to put people off balance too, because we're losing out on 10% damage and lack a ranged stun."
Class skills beeing better than weapon skills doesnt make classes all the same, what it does is make weapon skilllines almost useless. Magblade, templar, magdk, magsorc and arcanist all use almost exclusively class skills, but they all feel different. But I remember people used to speak about „The stam class“, because the same 4 skills(dizzy swing, executioner, momentum and vigor) and 2 ultimates(dawnbreaker, shield wall) were used by most stam classes, only vigor by all of them.
Weapon skills dont make classes different much, but when the wpn skills are worse than class skills for every class than why do they even exist?
They make Stamdens and Stamcros and some Stamsorcs use 2h for dizzy swing insteat of dw like most other classes.Bushido2513 wrote: »Also to your point about the other skills listed, I believe the point was that these skills were at least tweaked to make them a bit more useable even if it didn't always work out well. SS hasn't been tweaked in a while.
Not sure what you mean. You mean the bit about crystal, whip, and jabs? If so, then I gotta stick to my guns. And again this isn't like a trigger for me I respect the fact that OP wants what they want. I just don't think those examples were very good.
Crystal Weapon is a great skill and I use it from range on my stamsorc. But it was absolutely worth mentioning that when crystal weapon was introduced stamsorc had NOTHING. And even now magsorc, unless they run crystal, has NOTHING. And that is not where NB is.
And Whip isn't even a spammable. Like it is but it isn't, ya know? You can spam it if you're in corrosive or whatever but what most DKs spam is FoO. And that only works as a spammable because of how busted DK is right now. I would be against giving DK a ranged spammable just like I'm against giving NB a ranged spammable. In fact I'm already against FoO acting as a ranged spammable. The real stamDK spammable is poop rocks (as DKs call it.) So again... Not sure this was a great example.
And I'm not even sure why Jabs got brought up exactly because that was obviously nerfed and templars are still VERY upset about it lol.
So what DKs have is an arguably weak AoE spammable (FoO,) that works for them because it builds stacks for Whip which is their other spammable but it only does good damage after building some stacks.
Half of sorcs have a spammable at all the other half arguably don't.
Templars spammable is AoE like FoO, recently got nerfed to do less damage accordingly, and their single target one has a cast time so they don't like it.
Necros don't like their spammable.
Wardens don't like their spammable.
So, y'know, I DO see the problem with swallow soul. But NBs aren't alone in this, and as a matter of fact at least they do HAVE a spammable. It's probably the best spammable in the game. By a mile.
I can see why some people might be of the opinion that "well, there's no harm in asking." Sure, that's valid, ask away. But the fact that this may be reasonable doesn't necessarily mean that differing opinions aren't reasonable too. We just have to reasonably disagree. Which I'm fine doing.
I think people know I'm down for a scrappy argument and they also know I check the forums a lot and I'm responsive. I accidently become the focus of defending certain things... They aren't all hot button issues for me. Sometimes I'm just casting my vote, ya know? I don't see why changing my mind is so important to some people. It isn't as though my opinion is actually holding anyone back from getting what they want.
Whip definitely is a spammable and at least the flamelash morph also gets used as a spammable. Molten whip is also useable as spammable and has a tooltip like a spammable, It only doesnt get spammed because it was/is more effektive to use it as a burst tool. Flames of oblivion tooltip is about 25% mower than molten whip tooltip, when molten whip stacks increased dmg by 33% it was more dmg to use 3x FoO > molten whip than to spam molten whip, now that stacks are only 20% it is slightly lower overall dmg but can still be used because better for burst and it also increases wpn dmg usw. But actually shouldnt matter that much if you spam whip or get use 3*FoO than Molten whip.
That doesnt make FoO a real spammable, without stacks of molten whip (with flame lash) it isnt and it isnt a ranged spammable because it has only 15m range. You can also get stacks by using Noxious breath(same dmg, higher cost but as stam (hybrid) dk when you have more stam than mag maybe easier to sustain), venemous claw(the same) or chain(against immune targets it is for free and some zerglings spam it). But as a DK main I dont need a ranged spammable, most other offensive class skills are meele so I have to play meele anyway even with ranged spammable.Bushido2513 wrote: »
I think Nightblade mains melee or not, can all agree to one thing. That is, that the merciless resolve's tooltip scaling is way to strong.
I'd rather take the feelings or agreement out o the picture and just say what is the tooltip / damage done vs other similar skills? I mostly deal with sorc but I'd have to say I do believe the tooltip is higher than other similar skills which I believe are Blastbones, Shalks, POL, Charged whip but I don't have the numbers to say for sure.
You take merciless resolve out of the picture and Nightblade is nothing. A balance to the class would be unironically buffing the class, minus Merciless resolve.
Literally the only thing making NB too strong is Merciless Resolve. You can't change my mind.
Back up for a second. You can't just take away a burst damage effect, every class gets one. That being said you could either tone it down or replace it with something else. So if you lower the tooltip of merciless or say replace it with POL I believe nbs would still be killing people.
In some cases I also think their strength comes from good heals and evasion as well. Also even if you lowered the tooltip or anything like that you'd have to account for people playing different to account for the change. There have definitely been some instances where ZOS nerfed something only to birth a playstyle previously not seen because nobody had to figure it out. Based on these things nerfing just MR might bring nb in line but can't say for sure.
I think @Dekrypted was right when he said, "As controversial as the high isle patch was with how powerful oakensoul was, with every class being strong due to the ring and conditions on the skills at the time of that patch, the game was actually fun."
Either everyone be nerfed, or everyone be strong. The game was definitely fun. During this time with oaken...any build could be affective. The only class that abused Oaken was Dk's but they are always abusing sets, like in the past Titanborn/Ironblood...or like right now Acuity. Thats another topic tho.
I still say it depends on what your idea of fun was and what class you were playing. Oh and let's not forget if you actually paid to get the ring in the first place.
I didn't find it to be as fun because you just kept running into dks waiting to pop corrosive and nbs hitting harder than they ever hard. The only fun I had in that one was running into a sorc that had atro on cooldown, that actually made me laugh.
I'm happy with an everybody can die meta as long as everyone has a fair chance. Should be like the wild west where everyone has a gun and anyone can equally die. Oakensoul was like I have a gun, that other guy is a terminator, and that other guy over there is a liquid metal terminator that feels my bullets but can usually just shrug them off.
DK's were the only class 100% unkillable with oakensoul...It was a very specific build which you had to have everything in to ult gen.. Keep in mind Corrosive is the issue here, not oakensoul.
What I mean by I was having fun, was that I could actually play a rangeblade WITH SWALLOW SOUL. Specifically SWALLOW SOUL. A class skill. I 100% am not lying when I say I removed Merciless Resolve off of my bar HAPPILY during the oaken meta. I replaced it with a dot/hot 2 in one skill known has Structered Entropy. I can send build link if you want.
That being said, I didn't need assassins will burst to carry my damage. I had so much fun, even fighting Corro DKs...cause they could still be countered LOL...I have no idea what direction your trying to go to. But I will say again, BUFF SWALLOW SOUL.
Corrosive armor doesnt make DK 100% unkillable, when you get zerged down by 10+ players, you still die instantly while dodge rolling with corrosive armor. If you fight 3-4 average Zerglings, you often still get killed in corrosive armor before you can finish your burst combo. Most dot ticks are lower or only slightly higher than 3% of your max hp so they are not reduced by corrosive armor. Dot builds can pressure a dk in corrosive armor almost as much as without it and kill him or at least keep him defensive, Bowsorcs can do it from range and kite the dk while pressuring.Bushido2513 wrote: »
Before I read all this, I'm not saying remove merciless LOL. I'm saying without our burst we do no damage. Just take your NB build rn and remove merciless resolve. Your not killing anything without proc sets.
Eh you're getting a little murky here I mean most of the only sets worn these days are proc sets even if it's something like rallying cry.
I mean you're basically saying take my build, remove merciless and don't put any proc sets in play to make up for lost damage and I mean yeah I wouldn't kill much but most any class would have the same issue.
I'm not saying merciless isn't the highest tooltip of all delayed damage tooltips, it might be. I'm saying that you could nerf the damage and nb would still be an overall higher end threat because it has the most well rounded toolkit.
But in trying to say what nb strength is or isn't you have to make a legit argument. I mean if you take MR away I'm just going to put some other damage build/setup in its place and still get the kills. What you didn't take away was any passives that boost damage/evasion and the awesome burst heal. So I can still create a lot of pressure, have good survival, and probably secure kills, just in a different way.
I'd say the overall damage OR the healing of nb need to be toned down to bring it in line, but if you just nerf merciless it would probably just morph into another build that was nearly or just as lethal .Bushido2513 wrote: »
Before I read all this, I'm not saying remove merciless LOL. I'm saying without our burst we do no damage. Just take your NB build rn and remove merciless resolve. Your not killing anything without proc sets.
Eh you're getting a little murky here I mean most of the only sets worn these days are proc sets even if it's something like rallying cry.
I mean you're basically saying take my build, remove merciless and don't put any proc sets in play to make up for lost damage and I mean yeah I wouldn't kill much but most any class would have the same issue.
I'm not saying merciless isn't the highest tooltip of all delayed damage tooltips, it might be. I'm saying that you could nerf the damage and nb would still be an overall higher end threat because it has the most well rounded toolkit.
But in trying to say what nb strength is or isn't you have to make a legit argument. I mean if you take MR away I'm just going to put some other damage build/setup in its place and still get the kills. What you didn't take away was any passives that boost damage/evasion and the awesome burst heal. So I can still create a lot of pressure, have good survival, and probably secure kills, just in a different way.
I'd say the overall damage OR the healing of nb need to be toned down to bring it in line, but if you just nerf merciless it would probably just morph into another build that was nearly or just as lethal .
Your still not talking about SWALLOW SOUL.
Anyways, I'm fixing post TT , with argonian with 0 passives, 0 cp, 0 attributes...I just slapped on each class with no anything making the damage differentiate.
Here are the results.
Now, if I have to do this again with spammables, just let me know.
Nightblades are not really using free damage procs. Unless they are ganking. Most Hybrid blades are stat dense. Hybrid blades being the Melee Culprits, that keep getting buffed.
DKs, get carried by their dot pressure and massive survivability, they can live without burst. Sorcs survivability is questionable, yet there damage is on par. Necros lack both burst and pressure. Can't really argue with that. Templar burst thru PotL is non-existent due to the recent nerf 3 patches ago. So they have been making it work with no burst. Arcanist have no burst, yet they still kill things. Wardens have ok ish burst, but not 20k hits lol.
But, the main Gripe on this thread, was that swallow soul needs to be competent. Not merciless.
Eso hub website also shows tooltips for cp160 chars without any passives, atribute points, cp and set pieces.
Your Subterrain Assault, Blastbones and Cephaliarchs Flail tooltips are the same as in Eso hub, while your whip, crystal frags and merciless resolve tooltips are 50-100% higher.
Its because, in the editor I was using, when you use merciless resolve you get like an additional 400 spell and weapon damage. Crystal frags, when procced gets a damage bonus. and Whip also gets a damage bonus. That's where the damage difference come in. While the other spammables doesn't have a specific damage multiplier to the actual burst ability alone.
You said the heal of swallow *probably isn't affected by battle spirit* but I can promise you it is. The swallow soul heal is pretty much like having an absorb health enchant on your weapon. It's useless. The damage scaling on tooltip is terrible, and you also said it was instant ranged spammable. If you ever used the skill you know that its not instant. Its wonkier than ever and has a bit of a delay.
Swallow soul also gets overlooked in PvE builds. The scaling on Swallow is bad. There is no argument.
When you say that its a stretch saying that you cant play Magblade at ranged. you're wrong. The only reason I say this, is because even with shade/merciless and cloak, it doesn't fix the issue of not doing any pressure damage. What your saying is basically make a ranged ganker. Which I can definetely do and make work. But I'm not asking for that nor am I wanting to do that.
What I want, and many other people want. Is Swallow soul at very least getting a buff. I can compare rangeblade to rangeplar, and say that I don't have javelin (Aka range stun ) or Opression (ranged execute that actually works). On top of doing PotL burst damage that sometimes hits harder than my merciless resolve.
The playstyle I'm mentioning has already existed for a long time, so it's not like I'm asking for a huge meta change. I just want it to be playable as gankblade/hybrid cookie cutter is the only way to play nightblade right now.0 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭Swallow Soul dmg tooltip is ranged instant cast spammable standard tooltip, its dmg shouldnt get buffed because it is already the same as other instant cast ranged spammables. The heal is 36% of dmg every 2 seconds for 10 seconds, althought it is of course useless to have a 10 second HoT when you spam the skill because you get only 1 stack/only first tick of it. The healing probably doesnt get double hit by battlespirit, healing by caused dmg doesnt get reduced by battlespirit a second time i think. At least it should be that way.
But I remember not that long ago, probably until update 35 when concealed was buffed, most mag nb builds except gankers and bombers were swallow soul nightblades. Swallow Soul could get buffed a bit, but not the tooltip dmg because that is balanced and range mag nb should be another option and not the@Bushido2513 Stamsorc's crystal weapon is ranged or melee, yes, but what does MAGsorc have? They have force pulse is what they have, lol. And DK? Are we talking about poop rocks, as DK calls it?
I'm not necessarily against buffing swallow soul but it's going to need to be just a different skill entirely. Because the last thing NB needs is a ranged spammable that heals and does decent damage. Terrible idea. Incidentally the reason why it does bad damage is because it heals. And you could say this is a PvP complaint... But okay, so why does a PvEblade need a spammable that heals either?
Mostly though I just disagree with the popular opinion that every class ability needs to be better than it's weaponline alternative. People seem to think this makes classes more thematic or whatever... Maybe... But it also makes them all the same.
Also, NB has a ranged execute. They have shadow image and shadowy disguise. They have a massive burst tool that can be used at range and stacks off of light attacks. I think it's more than a stretch to say that NB isn't capable of fighting at range. Why? Because they don't want to slot a non-class spammable? I mean, are we comparing rangeblade to other ranged classes or only to meleeblade? Nobody can keep up with meleeblade. Join the club.
Buff the damage on swallow soul and the next thing requested will be "well it needs to put people off balance too, because we're losing out on 10% damage and lack a ranged stun."
Class skills beeing better than weapon skills doesnt make classes all the same, what it does is make weapon skilllines almost useless. Magblade, templar, magdk, magsorc and arcanist all use almost exclusively class skills, but they all feel different. But I remember people used to speak about „The stam class“, because the same 4 skills(dizzy swing, executioner, momentum and vigor) and 2 ultimates(dawnbreaker, shield wall) were used by most stam classes, only vigor by all of them.
Weapon skills dont make classes different much, but when the wpn skills are worse than class skills for every class than why do they even exist?
They make Stamdens and Stamcros and some Stamsorcs use 2h for dizzy swing insteat of dw like most other classes.Bushido2513 wrote: »Also to your point about the other skills listed, I believe the point was that these skills were at least tweaked to make them a bit more useable even if it didn't always work out well. SS hasn't been tweaked in a while.
Not sure what you mean. You mean the bit about crystal, whip, and jabs? If so, then I gotta stick to my guns. And again this isn't like a trigger for me I respect the fact that OP wants what they want. I just don't think those examples were very good.
Crystal Weapon is a great skill and I use it from range on my stamsorc. But it was absolutely worth mentioning that when crystal weapon was introduced stamsorc had NOTHING. And even now magsorc, unless they run crystal, has NOTHING. And that is not where NB is.
And Whip isn't even a spammable. Like it is but it isn't, ya know? You can spam it if you're in corrosive or whatever but what most DKs spam is FoO. And that only works as a spammable because of how busted DK is right now. I would be against giving DK a ranged spammable just like I'm against giving NB a ranged spammable. In fact I'm already against FoO acting as a ranged spammable. The real stamDK spammable is poop rocks (as DKs call it.) So again... Not sure this was a great example.
And I'm not even sure why Jabs got brought up exactly because that was obviously nerfed and templars are still VERY upset about it lol.
So what DKs have is an arguably weak AoE spammable (FoO,) that works for them because it builds stacks for Whip which is their other spammable but it only does good damage after building some stacks.
Half of sorcs have a spammable at all the other half arguably don't.
Templars spammable is AoE like FoO, recently got nerfed to do less damage accordingly, and their single target one has a cast time so they don't like it.
Necros don't like their spammable.
Wardens don't like their spammable.
So, y'know, I DO see the problem with swallow soul. But NBs aren't alone in this, and as a matter of fact at least they do HAVE a spammable. It's probably the best spammable in the game. By a mile.
I can see why some people might be of the opinion that "well, there's no harm in asking." Sure, that's valid, ask away. But the fact that this may be reasonable doesn't necessarily mean that differing opinions aren't reasonable too. We just have to reasonably disagree. Which I'm fine doing.
I think people know I'm down for a scrappy argument and they also know I check the forums a lot and I'm responsive. I accidently become the focus of defending certain things... They aren't all hot button issues for me. Sometimes I'm just casting my vote, ya know? I don't see why changing my mind is so important to some people. It isn't as though my opinion is actually holding anyone back from getting what they want.
Whip definitely is a spammable and at least the flamelash morph also gets used as a spammable. Molten whip is also useable as spammable and has a tooltip like a spammable, It only doesnt get spammed because it was/is more effektive to use it as a burst tool. Flames of oblivion tooltip is about 25% mower than molten whip tooltip, when molten whip stacks increased dmg by 33% it was more dmg to use 3x FoO > molten whip than to spam molten whip, now that stacks are only 20% it is slightly lower overall dmg but can still be used because better for burst and it also increases wpn dmg usw. But actually shouldnt matter that much if you spam whip or get use 3*FoO than Molten whip.
That doesnt make FoO a real spammable, without stacks of molten whip (with flame lash) it isnt and it isnt a ranged spammable because it has only 15m range. You can also get stacks by using Noxious breath(same dmg, higher cost but as stam (hybrid) dk when you have more stam than mag maybe easier to sustain), venemous claw(the same) or chain(against immune targets it is for free and some zerglings spam it). But as a DK main I dont need a ranged spammable, most other offensive class skills are meele so I have to play meele anyway even with ranged spammable.Bushido2513 wrote: »
I think Nightblade mains melee or not, can all agree to one thing. That is, that the merciless resolve's tooltip scaling is way to strong.
I'd rather take the feelings or agreement out o the picture and just say what is the tooltip / damage done vs other similar skills? I mostly deal with sorc but I'd have to say I do believe the tooltip is higher than other similar skills which I believe are Blastbones, Shalks, POL, Charged whip but I don't have the numbers to say for sure.
You take merciless resolve out of the picture and Nightblade is nothing. A balance to the class would be unironically buffing the class, minus Merciless resolve.
Literally the only thing making NB too strong is Merciless Resolve. You can't change my mind.
Back up for a second. You can't just take away a burst damage effect, every class gets one. That being said you could either tone it down or replace it with something else. So if you lower the tooltip of merciless or say replace it with POL I believe nbs would still be killing people.
In some cases I also think their strength comes from good heals and evasion as well. Also even if you lowered the tooltip or anything like that you'd have to account for people playing different to account for the change. There have definitely been some instances where ZOS nerfed something only to birth a playstyle previously not seen because nobody had to figure it out. Based on these things nerfing just MR might bring nb in line but can't say for sure.
I think @Dekrypted was right when he said, "As controversial as the high isle patch was with how powerful oakensoul was, with every class being strong due to the ring and conditions on the skills at the time of that patch, the game was actually fun."
Either everyone be nerfed, or everyone be strong. The game was definitely fun. During this time with oaken...any build could be affective. The only class that abused Oaken was Dk's but they are always abusing sets, like in the past Titanborn/Ironblood...or like right now Acuity. Thats another topic tho.
I still say it depends on what your idea of fun was and what class you were playing. Oh and let's not forget if you actually paid to get the ring in the first place.
I didn't find it to be as fun because you just kept running into dks waiting to pop corrosive and nbs hitting harder than they ever hard. The only fun I had in that one was running into a sorc that had atro on cooldown, that actually made me laugh.
I'm happy with an everybody can die meta as long as everyone has a fair chance. Should be like the wild west where everyone has a gun and anyone can equally die. Oakensoul was like I have a gun, that other guy is a terminator, and that other guy over there is a liquid metal terminator that feels my bullets but can usually just shrug them off.
DK's were the only class 100% unkillable with oakensoul...It was a very specific build which you had to have everything in to ult gen.. Keep in mind Corrosive is the issue here, not oakensoul.
What I mean by I was having fun, was that I could actually play a rangeblade WITH SWALLOW SOUL. Specifically SWALLOW SOUL. A class skill. I 100% am not lying when I say I removed Merciless Resolve off of my bar HAPPILY during the oaken meta. I replaced it with a dot/hot 2 in one skill known has Structered Entropy. I can send build link if you want.
That being said, I didn't need assassins will burst to carry my damage. I had so much fun, even fighting Corro DKs...cause they could still be countered LOL...I have no idea what direction your trying to go to. But I will say again, BUFF SWALLOW SOUL.
Corrosive armor doesnt make DK 100% unkillable, when you get zerged down by 10+ players, you still die instantly while dodge rolling with corrosive armor. If you fight 3-4 average Zerglings, you often still get killed in corrosive armor before you can finish your burst combo. Most dot ticks are lower or only slightly higher than 3% of your max hp so they are not reduced by corrosive armor. Dot builds can pressure a dk in corrosive armor almost as much as without it and kill him or at least keep him defensive, Bowsorcs can do it from range and kite the dk while pressuring.Bushido2513 wrote: »
Before I read all this, I'm not saying remove merciless LOL. I'm saying without our burst we do no damage. Just take your NB build rn and remove merciless resolve. Your not killing anything without proc sets.
Eh you're getting a little murky here I mean most of the only sets worn these days are proc sets even if it's something like rallying cry.
I mean you're basically saying take my build, remove merciless and don't put any proc sets in play to make up for lost damage and I mean yeah I wouldn't kill much but most any class would have the same issue.
I'm not saying merciless isn't the highest tooltip of all delayed damage tooltips, it might be. I'm saying that you could nerf the damage and nb would still be an overall higher end threat because it has the most well rounded toolkit.
But in trying to say what nb strength is or isn't you have to make a legit argument. I mean if you take MR away I'm just going to put some other damage build/setup in its place and still get the kills. What you didn't take away was any passives that boost damage/evasion and the awesome burst heal. So I can still create a lot of pressure, have good survival, and probably secure kills, just in a different way.
I'd say the overall damage OR the healing of nb need to be toned down to bring it in line, but if you just nerf merciless it would probably just morph into another build that was nearly or just as lethal .Bushido2513 wrote: »
Before I read all this, I'm not saying remove merciless LOL. I'm saying without our burst we do no damage. Just take your NB build rn and remove merciless resolve. Your not killing anything without proc sets.
Eh you're getting a little murky here I mean most of the only sets worn these days are proc sets even if it's something like rallying cry.
I mean you're basically saying take my build, remove merciless and don't put any proc sets in play to make up for lost damage and I mean yeah I wouldn't kill much but most any class would have the same issue.
I'm not saying merciless isn't the highest tooltip of all delayed damage tooltips, it might be. I'm saying that you could nerf the damage and nb would still be an overall higher end threat because it has the most well rounded toolkit.
But in trying to say what nb strength is or isn't you have to make a legit argument. I mean if you take MR away I'm just going to put some other damage build/setup in its place and still get the kills. What you didn't take away was any passives that boost damage/evasion and the awesome burst heal. So I can still create a lot of pressure, have good survival, and probably secure kills, just in a different way.
I'd say the overall damage OR the healing of nb need to be toned down to bring it in line, but if you just nerf merciless it would probably just morph into another build that was nearly or just as lethal .
Your still not talking about SWALLOW SOUL.
Anyways, I'm fixing post TT , with argonian with 0 passives, 0 cp, 0 attributes...I just slapped on each class with no anything making the damage differentiate.
Here are the results.
Now, if I have to do this again with spammables, just let me know.
Nightblades are not really using free damage procs. Unless they are ganking. Most Hybrid blades are stat dense. Hybrid blades being the Melee Culprits, that keep getting buffed.
DKs, get carried by their dot pressure and massive survivability, they can live without burst. Sorcs survivability is questionable, yet there damage is on par. Necros lack both burst and pressure. Can't really argue with that. Templar burst thru PotL is non-existent due to the recent nerf 3 patches ago. So they have been making it work with no burst. Arcanist have no burst, yet they still kill things. Wardens have ok ish burst, but not 20k hits lol.
But, the main Gripe on this thread, was that swallow soul needs to be competent. Not merciless.
Eso hub website also shows tooltips for cp160 chars without any passives, atribute points, cp and set pieces.
Your Subterrain Assault, Blastbones and Cephaliarchs Flail tooltips are the same as in Eso hub, while your whip, crystal frags and merciless resolve tooltips are 50-100% higher.
Its because, in the editor I was using, when you use merciless resolve you get like an additional 400 spell and weapon damage. Crystal frags, when procced gets a damage bonus. and Whip also gets a damage bonus. That's where the damage difference come in. While the other spammables doesn't have a specific damage multiplier to the actual burst ability alone.
You said the heal of swallow *probably isn't affected by battle spirit* but I can promise you it is. The swallow soul heal is pretty much like having an absorb health enchant on your weapon. It's useless. The damage scaling on tooltip is terrible, and you also said it was instant ranged spammable. If you ever used the skill you know that its not instant. Its wonkier than ever and has a bit of a delay.
Swallow soul also gets overlooked in PvE builds. The scaling on Swallow is bad. There is no argument.
When you say that its a stretch saying that you cant play Magblade at ranged. you're wrong. The only reason I say this, is because even with shade/merciless and cloak, it doesn't fix the issue of not doing any pressure damage. What your saying is basically make a ranged ganker. Which I can definetely do and make work. But I'm not asking for that nor am I wanting to do that.
What I want, and many other people want. Is Swallow soul at very least getting a buff. I can compare rangeblade to rangeplar, and say that I don't have javelin (Aka range stun ) or Opression (ranged execute that actually works). On top of doing PotL burst damage that sometimes hits harder than my merciless resolve.
The playstyle I'm mentioning has already existed for a long time, so it's not like I'm asking for a huge meta change. I just want it to be playable as gankblade/hybrid cookie cutter is the only way to play nightblade right now.
Also going to add, that swallow soul heal get's out healed by base regeneration in some of my builds, LOL.0