complain about some fake tanks

Galiferno

If you want more real tanks in queue, fix the real problem: low pug DPS.

wilykcat

LordTareq wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

Forget fake tanks, I've seen fake healers recently.

Forget fake healers, I've seen fake dps recently.

I'm pretty sure I'm not one of those.

I've seen fake dps too. The best is when there is a fake dps that's actually a tank and then the real tank leaves, so then it's a win win. Fake dps arnt that bad as long if both dps in the groups..(how do I word this?)

Zastrix

Eh did a veteran basegame dungeon, even a fake tank can be okay if shields / breach / healing is applied on top of a lot of DPS.

The tank just went afk at the entrance of the dungeon and I tanked it (my role WAS DD but oh well, had to 'fake tank it'). Used Caltrops>Rushing Agony>Nightblade AOE Fear for trash groups (basically the better version of void bash) and on boss fights applied major breach, and parsed it w/ 75-100k DPS without going below 80% HP.

So good DDs can definitely do it. The issue is when a bad fake tank arrives and just irritates everyone.

Braffin

LunaFlora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

those are new players. new players who don't know what the roles are yet.
remember your default role is dd.

none of these examples are people who purposefully choose dd when they are a different role, which is what a fake dd actually is if it existed.

you said it yourself "Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one." they don't know, that's not purposefully faking a role.

for gods' sake remember when you first started playing eso or another mmo with these roles, it takes time to learn.
i wouldn't call a new healer or tank fake either. Calling people fake when they don't even know what their role is supposed to do or how to do any of it is pretty unhelpful

It doesn't matter why they aren't able to fulfill their role. Maybe they are new players, maybe they are casual veterans. Probably a mix of both.

If they don't fulfill their role, they are fake. Regardless of motivation. Same as for fake tanks. Nobody is asking, if the player who queued for tank isn't able or simply unwilling to taunt. If he doesn't, he is fake. Same for dds: They are either doing proper dmg or they are fake.

wilykcat

And this is why gw2 doesn't require specific roles for queueing, doing, and completing dungeons.

Vaqual

"Fake" healing in normal randoms is the most effective way to boost clear time, as a lot of "professional healers" think they are entitled to an afk-card as long as health bars are full or they just mindlessly keep overhealing even though no one takes damage. By taking their spot you eliminate the weakest link on average. It is not even that these are necessarily inexperienced players and I am also not running anything that comes close to being optimal for dungeons, but these players think they are actually filling the role better by spamming radiating regen than someone who is dpsing in a scenario without incoming damage. And they will even be smug about it. Sure sometimes an unexpecting dd has to die while you set up a burst as a fake heal (watch your steps next time buddy, hehe), but mostly it's worth it for the clear speed. And sometimes the group gets an accidental offering or the intensive mender opts for betrayal, so they may not even notice what is going on, as this will already match the net benefit of having a dedicated support.

The bottom line is, being queued as tank, heal or dd is meaningless if it doesn't change the outcome of the run. In many dungeons none of these tasks have to be performed by a specialized player, because they are easy as s***. Queueing as role X is not guaranteeing you the full healer or maintank experience. Nobody values your contribution when the impact can not be felt in a positive way. The groupfinder is there to clear dungeons without the hassle of grouping manually, not to impose your understanding of gameplay or fun on 3 other players. Most groups with bad comps fail due to attitude issues or leaving rather than capability problems, as even vet DLC dungeons can be soloed and often duoed easily.

Get over yourself, play in a goal oriented manner and then you will even be able to enjoy the randomness that the groupfinder adds to the experience. You want to use it for your RP-pace-first-time-quest run? I don't recommend it. You need no death timerun vSCP? 2 randoms will leave because they don't like the length of your health bar before you reach the first trash group. You got an 18k HP Nightblade as maintank in vet castle thorn? Nice, could be a spicy run. His motivation? Skipping the queue. Does he deserve holy punishment? You can vote kick him if you like. Or you play the dungeon. Swap builds or give up if it isn't playable. If 3 people can't carry one weak player they are in no position to judge anyway. If he hadn't queued you might still be still queueing.

I deliberately wrote this in a slightly provoking way, because it's more entertaining, so don't get all upset if you disagree.

tldr: this "issue" is brought up in a disproportional frequency, people need to ground their expectations

Edit: I know OP/most people this thread are already agreeing with most points here, this is not meant for them, but for all those dramaqueens I meet everyday on the groupfinder. I keep screenshots of every encounter just to relive the moments.

Vaqual

wilykcat wrote: »

And this is why gw2 doesn't require specific roles for queueing, doing, and completing dungeons.

And still you can get trash groups in that game. That game is really not all that good and doesn't deserve a fraction of attention it gets on this forum.

wilykcat

Vaqual wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

And this is why gw2 doesn't require specific roles for queueing, doing, and completing dungeons.

And still you can get trash groups in that game. That game is really not all that good and doesn't deserve a fraction of attention it gets on this forum.

That's why I made that comment 😆.

Jazraena

Zastrix wrote: »

Eh did a veteran basegame dungeon, even a fake tank can be okay if shields / breach / healing is applied on top of a lot of DPS.

The tank just went afk at the stand of the dungeon and I tanked it (my role WAS DD but oh well, had to 'fake tank it'). Used Caltrops>Rushing Agony>Nightblade AOE Fear for trash groups (basically the better version of void bash) and on boss fights applied major breach, and parsed it w/ 75-100k DPS without going below 80% HP.

So good DDs an definitely do it. The issue is when a bad fake tank arrives and just irritates everyone.

When someone actually holds aggro, survives and controls the boss they're doing the job - that's not fake tanking, not even when it's a 20k HP guy in medium armour, even though the HP bit may be... worrisome in some places.

The fake tank problem is when they clearly have no capability and/or will of fulfilling their role and are just here to queue skip.

RicAlmighty

I don’t really understand why this is a big deal in normals. I can do every Normal dungeon in the game with 4 DD, no tank or healer needed as long as each DD has a self heal. It helps a lot to have the actual roles for sure, but it's not that big of a deal. I play strictly as a DD anyway.

Vet is a completely different conversation and I would actually be in favor of having stricter requirements for players that queue for vet dungeons. Destiny 2 has something sort of similar with their concept of "champion mods". If you do not have a proper champion mod slotted, you get a message at the start of the strike that no one on the team has the mod, and so that champion type will be much harder to defeat. ESO could implement something similar which requires each role to have certain skills slotted. This, of course, will not remove the issue entirely, but may help to ensure the "fake" roles are at least equipped to play the role. Whether they do or not is another matter entirely.

preevious

Fake tanks and fake heals don't exist because of the transmute system.
They exist because of human nature.

There will always be people willing to cheat the system at the expense of other players as long as it gives them an benefit.
The benefit here is a shorter queue.

Personnaly, I'd encourage everyone bothered by it to :

1) try to vote kick them of the group : you don't have to be leader for it. Anyone can propose a kick vote. I do this all the time. Sometimes, it succeed. And let's face it .. even if we don't find a replacement, we were without the role anyway. Might as well finish it with 3 people instead of with a cheater.

2) report them. Fake tanking and fake healing is an exploitation of the system to get an unfair advantage. I think if falls in both "cheating" and "griefing" category of report. I do report them everytime, and if enough people do this, ZOS will end up having to take action and find a way to stop this.

mattaeus01b16_ESO

As the most resent Fake Tank to leave a (random) Vet LOM said when I asked them "Why bother Queing for a random Vet if your just going to leave. They said "I play to have fun, and that dungeon is not fun"
"And what about the 3 people you left standing there that waited (in my case, 20 mins) for a Que to pop, who now have to reQue?"
... " I dont play this game to be stressed out, and I dont like that dungeon"

Besides this behavior, there is also a bug that will Automatically remove you from a group when you log in and then boot you from the dungeon... And then you find yourself sitting in a Ghost group from 3 days ago (Thank you Templars), that has been going on FOR YEAR AND YEARS NOW, that has never been addressed.

mattaeus01b16_ESO

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I like how its become the norm now not to care what you Que for and speed run threw and entire dungeon as fast as you can while Dungeon bosses pull in the Group Members that are to slow weather they want to or not!

... yeah, that was sarcasm.

Amottica

Dr_Con wrote: »

the whole idea of transmutes from randoms needs to be reworked with this in mind.

Fake tanks were an problem with random GF group before running dungeons for transmits was a good farming maneuver. It has always been the overall reward that drive such a factor and players tend to be accepting of a fake tank in their GF group, otherwise, such a practice would have ceased long ago.

The main issue is that decent tanks avoid the GF. Heck, when I commented in guild that the group I got could not out-damage the healing in one fight the guild told me the mistake was that I used the GF to find a group. I have avoided such groups ever since by sticking with my guilds.

I do get a reminder from time to time when decide to queue with only three of us to see what we get. The funniest player we found like that was a stamina melee player who was insistent they did not have an interrupt. LOL.

Necrotech_Master

preevious wrote: »

Fake tanks and fake heals don't exist because of the transmute system.
They exist because of human nature.

There will always be people willing to cheat the system at the expense of other players as long as it gives them an benefit.
The benefit here is a shorter queue.

Personnaly, I'd encourage everyone bothered by it to :

1) try to vote kick them of the group : you don't have to be leader for it. Anyone can propose a kick vote. I do this all the time. Sometimes, it succeed. And let's face it .. even if we don't find a replacement, we were without the role anyway. Might as well finish it with 3 people instead of with a cheater.

2) report them. Fake tanking and fake healing is an exploitation of the system to get an unfair advantage. I think if falls in both "cheating" and "griefing" category of report. I do report them everytime, and if enough people do this, ZOS will end up having to take action and find a way to stop this.

i feel like reporting someone for queueing as the wrong role is a bit much

ive accidentally queued into a random as a tank with a dps because i forgot i changed my role for a pre-made group run i had done earlier, but after i got in the dungeon and realized my mistake i slotted a taunt and proceeded to complete the dungeon (it was a normal march of sacrifices too that i had come up from the random)

preevious

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Fake tanks and fake heals don't exist because of the transmute system.
They exist because of human nature.

There will always be people willing to cheat the system at the expense of other players as long as it gives them an benefit.
The benefit here is a shorter queue.

Personnaly, I'd encourage everyone bothered by it to :

1) try to vote kick them of the group : you don't have to be leader for it. Anyone can propose a kick vote. I do this all the time. Sometimes, it succeed. And let's face it .. even if we don't find a replacement, we were without the role anyway. Might as well finish it with 3 people instead of with a cheater.

2) report them. Fake tanking and fake healing is an exploitation of the system to get an unfair advantage. I think if falls in both "cheating" and "griefing" category of report. I do report them everytime, and if enough people do this, ZOS will end up having to take action and find a way to stop this.

i feel like reporting someone for queueing as the wrong role is a bit much

ive accidentally queued into a random as a tank with a dps because i forgot i changed my role for a pre-made group run i had done earlier, but after i got in the dungeon and realized my mistake i slotted a taunt and proceeded to complete the dungeon (it was a normal march of sacrifices too that i had come up from the random)

Well, you made a mistake and tried to correct it by slotting a taunt. You're not a fake tank, friend.
I would not report you for that, of course.

Mistake happens, yes, but they are rare occurences. Most of the time, the fake tank does it on purpose and don't bother taunting. He also have to be carried more often than not, because he's not even as good a DPS as he think he is..
What I mean is that it's really easy to sort the occasional mistake out. Don't worry.

Those are this discussion's subject, and should definitely get reported.

spartaxoxo

preevious wrote: »

Those are this discussion's subject, and should definitely get reported.

https://us.v-cdn.net/cdn-cgi/image/fit=scale-down,width=1200/https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/u6/gkzh539y1ror.jpg

From the knowledge database on the support site. No, they shouldn't be getting reported. It's not against the rules. Clearly some outdated information in there (which also shows this issue predates transmutes) but nevertheless, ZOS doesn't have set rules for how someone has to queue.

That's why they have vote kick. So you can kick disruptive players out. If you get outvoted, then it's up to the player to decide if they want to be in that group or not.

katanagirl1

I don’t like it when people queue as tank to skip the line for dps, but if the group completes the dungeon without too much trouble, I am content with just getting it done and moving on. If there is a wipe at one of the bosses, the fake tank and/or fake healer usually leaves and makes way for a replacement anyway.

preevious

spartaxoxo wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Those are this discussion's subject, and should definitely get reported.

https://us.v-cdn.net/cdn-cgi/image/fit=scale-down,width=1200/https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/u6/gkzh539y1ror.jpg

From the knowledge database on the support site. No, they shouldn't be getting reported. It's not against the rules. Clearly some outdated information in there (which also shows this issue predates transmutes) but nevertheless, ZOS doesn't have set rules for how someone has to queue.

That's why they have vote kick. So you can kick disruptive players out. If you get outvoted, then it's up to the player to decide if they want to be in that group or not.

Well ..

The litteral first line says players are to "assess what rôle they can play" ..
That text just says people can make mistake .. it does not allow exploitation of the system.

Fake tanks/heals are not doing that. They are fully aware that they can't/won't/don't wanna tank/heal. Thus, they exploit the system, as there are no "innacurracy of their assessment".. just plain lies.
They also cause strife and lower the quality of the experience for their unfortunates teamates.

They should be reported. And will be as far as I'm concerned.

Rowjoh

There is a huge disparity in difficulty level between base game normal dungeons such as Fungal Grotty 1 etc and some of the DLC ones, and therefore the time it can take to complete.

I've always felt that the harder DLC dungeons are as far away from the expectation of a 'normal' run as it gets, and should either be in a seperate category or shouldn't be in the mix at all (quite a few are actually more difficult and take longer than some vet dungeons!) all of which isn't fair on new or low cp players or those that struggle a little.

Sorry, but even as a fair and experienced player, if I get one of these and I'm pushed for time I will message and leave the group on entry regardless of what role I'm playing.

illusiouk

Nothing worse than getting a fake tank in the group and all they do is "Green Beam" *facepalm*

Northwold

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

those are new players. new players who don't know what the roles are yet.
remember your default role is dd.

none of these examples are people who purposefully choose dd when they are a different role, which is what a fake dd actually is if it existed.

you said it yourself "Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one." they don't know, that's not purposefully faking a role.

for gods' sake remember when you first started playing eso or another mmo with these roles, it takes time to learn.
i wouldn't call a new healer or tank fake either. Calling people fake when they don't even know what their role is supposed to do or how to do any of it is pretty unhelpful

It doesn't matter why they aren't able to fulfill their role. Maybe they are new players, maybe they are casual veterans. Probably a mix of both.

If they don't fulfill their role, they are fake. Regardless of motivation. Same as for fake tanks. Nobody is asking, if the player who queued for tank isn't able or simply unwilling to taunt. If he doesn't, he is fake. Same for dds: They are either doing proper dmg or they are fake.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

Jierdanit

Vulkunne wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

Or maybe these DPS people can branch out and actually do the role they queue for. If the fake tank slots a taunt and tanks the boss I'll keep him alive as the groups real healer. Instead most of these fake tanks seem to run around in circles trying to avoid the boss with 18K health making the experience miserable for everyone. I've also seen them try to stand in back of the boss while the boss focuses the healer which irks me as well.

I tried actually playing a real tank build for stuff like that once. Never again.
Ended up with 2 dps who combined did less than 10k dps.

I'd rather play as DPS with a fake tank than play as tank with fake DPS.

Exactly. A Traditional Tank, as is commonly thought of, requires a Traditional group. If you want a Tank that meets expectations, which are high, which makes sense, then the DPS and Healer must also meet that requirement, which is where things fall apart.

Ergo, if the DPS and Healer aren't genuine why should the Tank be? Just to carry them I guess? Yet, in a Traditional group, the Healer carries the Tank and the DPS take care of everything else. Many times though, the DPS and Healer are green and expect the Tank to do everything for them when this is not really how its intended to be.

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

those are new players. new players who don't know what the roles are yet.
remember your default role is dd.

none of these examples are people who purposefully choose dd when they are a different role, which is what a fake dd actually is if it existed.

you said it yourself "Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one." they don't know, that's not purposefully faking a role.

for gods' sake remember when you first started playing eso or another mmo with these roles, it takes time to learn.
i wouldn't call a new healer or tank fake either. Calling people fake when they don't even know what their role is supposed to do or how to do any of it is pretty unhelpful

It doesn't matter why they aren't able to fulfill their role. Maybe they are new players, maybe they are casual veterans. Probably a mix of both.

If they don't fulfill their role, they are fake. Regardless of motivation. Same as for fake tanks. Nobody is asking, if the player who queued for tank isn't able or simply unwilling to taunt. If he doesn't, he is fake. Same for dds: They are either doing proper dmg or they are fake.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

Their role is damage dealer for that dungeon.
Meaning if they are not capable of doing enough dps to finish the dungeon in a reasonable time they are not doing their role properly.

Northwold

Jierdanit wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

Or maybe these DPS people can branch out and actually do the role they queue for. If the fake tank slots a taunt and tanks the boss I'll keep him alive as the groups real healer. Instead most of these fake tanks seem to run around in circles trying to avoid the boss with 18K health making the experience miserable for everyone. I've also seen them try to stand in back of the boss while the boss focuses the healer which irks me as well.

I tried actually playing a real tank build for stuff like that once. Never again.
Ended up with 2 dps who combined did less than 10k dps.

I'd rather play as DPS with a fake tank than play as tank with fake DPS.

Exactly. A Traditional Tank, as is commonly thought of, requires a Traditional group. If you want a Tank that meets expectations, which are high, which makes sense, then the DPS and Healer must also meet that requirement, which is where things fall apart.

Ergo, if the DPS and Healer aren't genuine why should the Tank be? Just to carry them I guess? Yet, in a Traditional group, the Healer carries the Tank and the DPS take care of everything else. Many times though, the DPS and Healer are green and expect the Tank to do everything for them when this is not really how its intended to be.

Yeah and that is why so many people queue up as fake tanks.
DPS simply is

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

those are new players. new players who don't know what the roles are yet.
remember your default role is dd.

none of these examples are people who purposefully choose dd when they are a different role, which is what a fake dd actually is if it existed.

you said it yourself "Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one." they don't know, that's not purposefully faking a role.

for gods' sake remember when you first started playing eso or another mmo with these roles, it takes time to learn.
i wouldn't call a new healer or tank fake either. Calling people fake when they don't even know what their role is supposed to do or how to do any of it is pretty unhelpful

It doesn't matter why they aren't able to fulfill their role. Maybe they are new players, maybe they are casual veterans. Probably a mix of both.

If they don't fulfill their role, they are fake. Regardless of motivation. Same as for fake tanks. Nobody is asking, if the player who queued for tank isn't able or simply unwilling to taunt. If he doesn't, he is fake. Same for dds: They are either doing proper dmg or they are fake.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

Their role is damage dealer for that dungeon.
Meaning if they are not capable of doing enough dps to finish the dungeon in a reasonable time they are not doing their role properly.

The problem, as has been noted by others, with complaining about "low" DPS is that it's completely subjective. What people are actually saying is that they do not want anyone who has not been playing the game for 100 years to be allowed to queue for dungeons. And the answer to that is, well, no.

And perhaps in an ideal world you could have the group finder and queues grouped up by ability. But there aren't enough players at any given time for that to work.

Jierdanit

Northwold wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

Or maybe these DPS people can branch out and actually do the role they queue for. If the fake tank slots a taunt and tanks the boss I'll keep him alive as the groups real healer. Instead most of these fake tanks seem to run around in circles trying to avoid the boss with 18K health making the experience miserable for everyone. I've also seen them try to stand in back of the boss while the boss focuses the healer which irks me as well.

I tried actually playing a real tank build for stuff like that once. Never again.
Ended up with 2 dps who combined did less than 10k dps.

I'd rather play as DPS with a fake tank than play as tank with fake DPS.

Exactly. A Traditional Tank, as is commonly thought of, requires a Traditional group. If you want a Tank that meets expectations, which are high, which makes sense, then the DPS and Healer must also meet that requirement, which is where things fall apart.

Ergo, if the DPS and Healer aren't genuine why should the Tank be? Just to carry them I guess? Yet, in a Traditional group, the Healer carries the Tank and the DPS take care of everything else. Many times though, the DPS and Healer are green and expect the Tank to do everything for them when this is not really how its intended to be.

Yeah and that is why so many people queue up as fake tanks.
DPS simply is

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

those are new players. new players who don't know what the roles are yet.
remember your default role is dd.

none of these examples are people who purposefully choose dd when they are a different role, which is what a fake dd actually is if it existed.

you said it yourself "Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one." they don't know, that's not purposefully faking a role.

for gods' sake remember when you first started playing eso or another mmo with these roles, it takes time to learn.
i wouldn't call a new healer or tank fake either. Calling people fake when they don't even know what their role is supposed to do or how to do any of it is pretty unhelpful

It doesn't matter why they aren't able to fulfill their role. Maybe they are new players, maybe they are casual veterans. Probably a mix of both.

If they don't fulfill their role, they are fake. Regardless of motivation. Same as for fake tanks. Nobody is asking, if the player who queued for tank isn't able or simply unwilling to taunt. If he doesn't, he is fake. Same for dds: They are either doing proper dmg or they are fake.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

Their role is damage dealer for that dungeon.
Meaning if they are not capable of doing enough dps to finish the dungeon in a reasonable time they are not doing their role properly.

The problem, as has been noted by others, with complaining about "low" DPS is that it's completely subjective. What people are actually saying is that they do not want anyone who has not been playing the game for 100 years to be allowed to queue for dungeons. And the answer to that is, well, no.

And perhaps in an ideal world you could have the group finder and queues grouped up by ability. But there aren't enough players at any given time for that to work.

No one has a problem with having new players in their group if those players are not absolutely useless.

And low dps isn't "completely subjective".
If a DPS player takes ages to kill dungeon mobs he has low dps if bosses that would take 30 seconds with decent dps suddenly take 3 minutes they have low dps.

Someone like that is simply not properly doing their role.
A tank is expected to know how to taunt when they do a dungeon, a heal is supposed to not let his team die and in the same way the most basic requirements for a DD should be to do enough damage so your entire team isn't held back by you.

Northwold

Jierdanit wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

Or maybe these DPS people can branch out and actually do the role they queue for. If the fake tank slots a taunt and tanks the boss I'll keep him alive as the groups real healer. Instead most of these fake tanks seem to run around in circles trying to avoid the boss with 18K health making the experience miserable for everyone. I've also seen them try to stand in back of the boss while the boss focuses the healer which irks me as well.

I tried actually playing a real tank build for stuff like that once. Never again.
Ended up with 2 dps who combined did less than 10k dps.

I'd rather play as DPS with a fake tank than play as tank with fake DPS.

Exactly. A Traditional Tank, as is commonly thought of, requires a Traditional group. If you want a Tank that meets expectations, which are high, which makes sense, then the DPS and Healer must also meet that requirement, which is where things fall apart.

Ergo, if the DPS and Healer aren't genuine why should the Tank be? Just to carry them I guess? Yet, in a Traditional group, the Healer carries the Tank and the DPS take care of everything else. Many times though, the DPS and Healer are green and expect the Tank to do everything for them when this is not really how its intended to be.

Yeah and that is why so many people queue up as fake tanks.
DPS simply is

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

those are new players. new players who don't know what the roles are yet.
remember your default role is dd.

none of these examples are people who purposefully choose dd when they are a different role, which is what a fake dd actually is if it existed.

you said it yourself "Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one." they don't know, that's not purposefully faking a role.

for gods' sake remember when you first started playing eso or another mmo with these roles, it takes time to learn.
i wouldn't call a new healer or tank fake either. Calling people fake when they don't even know what their role is supposed to do or how to do any of it is pretty unhelpful

It doesn't matter why they aren't able to fulfill their role. Maybe they are new players, maybe they are casual veterans. Probably a mix of both.

If they don't fulfill their role, they are fake. Regardless of motivation. Same as for fake tanks. Nobody is asking, if the player who queued for tank isn't able or simply unwilling to taunt. If he doesn't, he is fake. Same for dds: They are either doing proper dmg or they are fake.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

Their role is damage dealer for that dungeon.
Meaning if they are not capable of doing enough dps to finish the dungeon in a reasonable time they are not doing their role properly.

The problem, as has been noted by others, with complaining about "low" DPS is that it's completely subjective. What people are actually saying is that they do not want anyone who has not been playing the game for 100 years to be allowed to queue for dungeons. And the answer to that is, well, no.

And perhaps in an ideal world you could have the group finder and queues grouped up by ability. But there aren't enough players at any given time for that to work.

No one has a problem with having new players in their group if those players are not absolutely useless.

And low dps isn't "completely subjective".
If a DPS player takes ages to kill dungeon mobs he has low dps if bosses that would take 30 seconds with decent dps suddenly take 3 minutes they have low dps.

Someone like that is simply not properly doing their role.
A tank is expected to know how to taunt when they do a dungeon, a heal is supposed to not let his team die and in the same way the most basic requirements for a DD should be to do enough damage so your entire team isn't held back by you.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

And you ought to note that you have attempted to argue your position is not "completely subjective" with a set of completely subjective time limits.

Jierdanit

Northwold wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

Or maybe these DPS people can branch out and actually do the role they queue for. If the fake tank slots a taunt and tanks the boss I'll keep him alive as the groups real healer. Instead most of these fake tanks seem to run around in circles trying to avoid the boss with 18K health making the experience miserable for everyone. I've also seen them try to stand in back of the boss while the boss focuses the healer which irks me as well.

I tried actually playing a real tank build for stuff like that once. Never again.
Ended up with 2 dps who combined did less than 10k dps.

I'd rather play as DPS with a fake tank than play as tank with fake DPS.

Exactly. A Traditional Tank, as is commonly thought of, requires a Traditional group. If you want a Tank that meets expectations, which are high, which makes sense, then the DPS and Healer must also meet that requirement, which is where things fall apart.

Ergo, if the DPS and Healer aren't genuine why should the Tank be? Just to carry them I guess? Yet, in a Traditional group, the Healer carries the Tank and the DPS take care of everything else. Many times though, the DPS and Healer are green and expect the Tank to do everything for them when this is not really how its intended to be.

Yeah and that is why so many people queue up as fake tanks.
DPS simply is

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

those are new players. new players who don't know what the roles are yet.
remember your default role is dd.

none of these examples are people who purposefully choose dd when they are a different role, which is what a fake dd actually is if it existed.

you said it yourself "Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one." they don't know, that's not purposefully faking a role.

for gods' sake remember when you first started playing eso or another mmo with these roles, it takes time to learn.
i wouldn't call a new healer or tank fake either. Calling people fake when they don't even know what their role is supposed to do or how to do any of it is pretty unhelpful

It doesn't matter why they aren't able to fulfill their role. Maybe they are new players, maybe they are casual veterans. Probably a mix of both.

If they don't fulfill their role, they are fake. Regardless of motivation. Same as for fake tanks. Nobody is asking, if the player who queued for tank isn't able or simply unwilling to taunt. If he doesn't, he is fake. Same for dds: They are either doing proper dmg or they are fake.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

Their role is damage dealer for that dungeon.
Meaning if they are not capable of doing enough dps to finish the dungeon in a reasonable time they are not doing their role properly.

The problem, as has been noted by others, with complaining about "low" DPS is that it's completely subjective. What people are actually saying is that they do not want anyone who has not been playing the game for 100 years to be allowed to queue for dungeons. And the answer to that is, well, no.

And perhaps in an ideal world you could have the group finder and queues grouped up by ability. But there aren't enough players at any given time for that to work.

No one has a problem with having new players in their group if those players are not absolutely useless.

And low dps isn't "completely subjective".
If a DPS player takes ages to kill dungeon mobs he has low dps if bosses that would take 30 seconds with decent dps suddenly take 3 minutes they have low dps.

Someone like that is simply not properly doing their role.
A tank is expected to know how to taunt when they do a dungeon, a heal is supposed to not let his team die and in the same way the most basic requirements for a DD should be to do enough damage so your entire team isn't held back by you.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

And you ought to note that you have attempted to argue your position is not "completely subjective" with a set of completely subjective time limits.

If the higher end of those times are normal for you I suggest not making other people suffer because of that.

Northwold

Jierdanit wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

Or maybe these DPS people can branch out and actually do the role they queue for. If the fake tank slots a taunt and tanks the boss I'll keep him alive as the groups real healer. Instead most of these fake tanks seem to run around in circles trying to avoid the boss with 18K health making the experience miserable for everyone. I've also seen them try to stand in back of the boss while the boss focuses the healer which irks me as well.

I tried actually playing a real tank build for stuff like that once. Never again.
Ended up with 2 dps who combined did less than 10k dps.

I'd rather play as DPS with a fake tank than play as tank with fake DPS.

Exactly. A Traditional Tank, as is commonly thought of, requires a Traditional group. If you want a Tank that meets expectations, which are high, which makes sense, then the DPS and Healer must also meet that requirement, which is where things fall apart.

Ergo, if the DPS and Healer aren't genuine why should the Tank be? Just to carry them I guess? Yet, in a Traditional group, the Healer carries the Tank and the DPS take care of everything else. Many times though, the DPS and Healer are green and expect the Tank to do everything for them when this is not really how its intended to be.

Yeah and that is why so many people queue up as fake tanks.
DPS simply is

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

those are new players. new players who don't know what the roles are yet.
remember your default role is dd.

none of these examples are people who purposefully choose dd when they are a different role, which is what a fake dd actually is if it existed.

you said it yourself "Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one." they don't know, that's not purposefully faking a role.

for gods' sake remember when you first started playing eso or another mmo with these roles, it takes time to learn.
i wouldn't call a new healer or tank fake either. Calling people fake when they don't even know what their role is supposed to do or how to do any of it is pretty unhelpful

It doesn't matter why they aren't able to fulfill their role. Maybe they are new players, maybe they are casual veterans. Probably a mix of both.

If they don't fulfill their role, they are fake. Regardless of motivation. Same as for fake tanks. Nobody is asking, if the player who queued for tank isn't able or simply unwilling to taunt. If he doesn't, he is fake. Same for dds: They are either doing proper dmg or they are fake.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

Their role is damage dealer for that dungeon.
Meaning if they are not capable of doing enough dps to finish the dungeon in a reasonable time they are not doing their role properly.

The problem, as has been noted by others, with complaining about "low" DPS is that it's completely subjective. What people are actually saying is that they do not want anyone who has not been playing the game for 100 years to be allowed to queue for dungeons. And the answer to that is, well, no.

And perhaps in an ideal world you could have the group finder and queues grouped up by ability. But there aren't enough players at any given time for that to work.

No one has a problem with having new players in their group if those players are not absolutely useless.

And low dps isn't "completely subjective".
If a DPS player takes ages to kill dungeon mobs he has low dps if bosses that would take 30 seconds with decent dps suddenly take 3 minutes they have low dps.

Someone like that is simply not properly doing their role.
A tank is expected to know how to taunt when they do a dungeon, a heal is supposed to not let his team die and in the same way the most basic requirements for a DD should be to do enough damage so your entire team isn't held back by you.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

And you ought to note that you have attempted to argue your position is not "completely subjective" with a set of completely subjective time limits.

If the higher end of those times are normal for you I suggest not making other people suffer because of that.

I could likewise suggest you solo dungeons. I do. And if people are unwilling to cater to mixed abilities perhaps they should not engage with mechanics that involve them with the whole player base.

Jierdanit

Northwold wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This happens because DPS queues are so long. There needs to be a queue just for dps or anyone who doesn't need a tank or healer.

Or maybe these DPS people can branch out and actually do the role they queue for. If the fake tank slots a taunt and tanks the boss I'll keep him alive as the groups real healer. Instead most of these fake tanks seem to run around in circles trying to avoid the boss with 18K health making the experience miserable for everyone. I've also seen them try to stand in back of the boss while the boss focuses the healer which irks me as well.

I tried actually playing a real tank build for stuff like that once. Never again.
Ended up with 2 dps who combined did less than 10k dps.

I'd rather play as DPS with a fake tank than play as tank with fake DPS.

Exactly. A Traditional Tank, as is commonly thought of, requires a Traditional group. If you want a Tank that meets expectations, which are high, which makes sense, then the DPS and Healer must also meet that requirement, which is where things fall apart.

Ergo, if the DPS and Healer aren't genuine why should the Tank be? Just to carry them I guess? Yet, in a Traditional group, the Healer carries the Tank and the DPS take care of everything else. Many times though, the DPS and Healer are green and expect the Tank to do everything for them when this is not really how its intended to be.

Yeah and that is why so many people queue up as fake tanks.
DPS simply is

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

those are new players. new players who don't know what the roles are yet.
remember your default role is dd.

none of these examples are people who purposefully choose dd when they are a different role, which is what a fake dd actually is if it existed.

you said it yourself "Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one." they don't know, that's not purposefully faking a role.

for gods' sake remember when you first started playing eso or another mmo with these roles, it takes time to learn.
i wouldn't call a new healer or tank fake either. Calling people fake when they don't even know what their role is supposed to do or how to do any of it is pretty unhelpful

It doesn't matter why they aren't able to fulfill their role. Maybe they are new players, maybe they are casual veterans. Probably a mix of both.

If they don't fulfill their role, they are fake. Regardless of motivation. Same as for fake tanks. Nobody is asking, if the player who queued for tank isn't able or simply unwilling to taunt. If he doesn't, he is fake. Same for dds: They are either doing proper dmg or they are fake.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

Their role is damage dealer for that dungeon.
Meaning if they are not capable of doing enough dps to finish the dungeon in a reasonable time they are not doing their role properly.

The problem, as has been noted by others, with complaining about "low" DPS is that it's completely subjective. What people are actually saying is that they do not want anyone who has not been playing the game for 100 years to be allowed to queue for dungeons. And the answer to that is, well, no.

And perhaps in an ideal world you could have the group finder and queues grouped up by ability. But there aren't enough players at any given time for that to work.

No one has a problem with having new players in their group if those players are not absolutely useless.

And low dps isn't "completely subjective".
If a DPS player takes ages to kill dungeon mobs he has low dps if bosses that would take 30 seconds with decent dps suddenly take 3 minutes they have low dps.

Someone like that is simply not properly doing their role.
A tank is expected to know how to taunt when they do a dungeon, a heal is supposed to not let his team die and in the same way the most basic requirements for a DD should be to do enough damage so your entire team isn't held back by you.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

And you ought to note that you have attempted to argue your position is not "completely subjective" with a set of completely subjective time limits.

If the higher end of those times are normal for you I suggest not making other people suffer because of that.

I could likewise suggest you solo dungeons. I do. And if people are unwilling to cater to mixed abilities perhaps they should not engage with mechanics that involve them with the whole player base.

I barely do dungeons and if I do I mostly solo them or duo with a friend to farm stuff.

My experiences in rnd have driven me away from doing them on a serious level. It's just not fun to be over half the groups DPS in almost every dungeon because people can't be bothered to get even the most basic understanding of the game.

Braffin

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

If its random normal dungeon, its ok, rnd is easy. Now fake dps is a bit of a worry, just hope that the fake tank and healer are dps.

there are no fake damage dealers
unless you've seen healers and tanks queue as damage dealers

Of course there are fake dds. If a player isn't able to provide adequate dmg while queuing as dps, it's a fake.

Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one. -> fake dd

And of course players which are running healing staves on one bar -> fake dd

If you want to use the classical role logic, you have to do it across all roles, otherwise it's cherrypicking.

those are new players. new players who don't know what the roles are yet.
remember your default role is dd.

none of these examples are people who purposefully choose dd when they are a different role, which is what a fake dd actually is if it existed.

you said it yourself "Then we have players using a taunt, because they don't know they are using one." they don't know, that's not purposefully faking a role.

for gods' sake remember when you first started playing eso or another mmo with these roles, it takes time to learn.
i wouldn't call a new healer or tank fake either. Calling people fake when they don't even know what their role is supposed to do or how to do any of it is pretty unhelpful

It doesn't matter why they aren't able to fulfill their role. Maybe they are new players, maybe they are casual veterans. Probably a mix of both.

If they don't fulfill their role, they are fake. Regardless of motivation. Same as for fake tanks. Nobody is asking, if the player who queued for tank isn't able or simply unwilling to taunt. If he doesn't, he is fake. Same for dds: They are either doing proper dmg or they are fake.

The role is "damage dealer". Not "high damage per second dealer".

I don't doubt that. Also the role "tank" isn't specified either by the game itself.

So, if LA-arrow-spammers with less than 5k are seriously considered to be a "damage dealer", the very same goes for absolutely clueless "tanks" without taunt. Of course those "tanks" (and also "healers") are "damage dealers" too, as almost every skill is doing some sort of damage.

All further distinctions are community-made. Of course it's useful to define some basics of proper fulfillment of any given role. That includes, that a tank has to use some sort of taunt to hold boss-aggro. And it includes that "damage dealers" have to do sufficient damage.

For example a player, which is doing less dps than tank and healer combined are providing, can't be considered to be a "damage dealer" in all seriousness.