Give Sorc an in-class source of Off Balance

StaticWave

Melzo wrote: »

You created a topic about giving the sorcerer "of balance", but I didn’t say a word against it. In fact, you are saying that other classes are stronger and you want them to be nerfed and the sorcerer buffed. I see this as a problem because if the NB bow is nerfed, then this class will immediately become crap, since there is nothing in all three branches apart from the bow. Literally, the NB has nothing but a bow shot. Nerf invisibility? The skill for which this class exists. Not everyone plays through sets that give you survivability. Many play the good old cotton killer. Warden's specialty is maximum health. You want to nerf it but that's the main feature of the class. Why go so far?Can we remove the stun from the streak?

Asking for buffs for your class is one thing, but another is when you ruin the game for other players.Dk, nb and Warden are the working classes. I don't see a problem with them. They don't instantly kill you like in the old meta like nb did, and they don't kill you in one hit like dk did. If your class doesn't work why should others suffer?

1) I didn't ask for Spectral Bow nerf, but tankiness nerf
2) I asked for ramping cost on Cloak since it's getting Major Savagery next patch
3) I said either Sorc gets buffed along with other classes, or other classes get nerfed to the same level as Sorc

Please read my arguments carefully. You are arguing against things I never said.

WreckfulAbandon

I have been gone for over a year so a little out of it but are Sorcs really not running any snare removal in open world? It's a flex skill that I would swap out in a duel but I can't imagine running no snare removal in OW. Thankfully this is viable on bowsorc as their skills are a little more streamlined than melee Sorc. But oh we have to tiptoe around bowsorc since it's considered on the brink of being too strong? Hate the situation Sorc is in right now.

Aside from that question I agree, NB has way too much burst damage and loaded skills in general, much less to be able to have so little counterplay to Cloak. Sorc absolutely needs some increased efficiency to their kit. Don't even need to touch on DKs since not much has changed there the past year. There is simply not enough bar space for the things Sorc needs to slot to be competitive and any other meta class can do it much easier.

Jierdanit

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I have been gone for over a year so a little out of it but are Sorcs really not running any snare removal in open world? It's a flex skill that I would swap out in a duel but I can't imagine running no snare removal in OW. Thankfully this is viable on bowsorc as their skills are a little more streamlined than melee Sorc. But oh we have to tiptoe around bowsorc since it's considered on the brink of being too strong? Hate the situation Sorc is in right now.

Aside from that question I agree, NB has way too much burst damage and loaded skills in general, much less to be able to have so little counterplay to Cloak. Sorc absolutely needs some increased efficiency to their kit. Don't even need to touch on DKs since not much has changed there the past year. There is simply not enough bar space for the things Sorc needs to slot to be competitive and any other meta class can do it much easier.

I'm not running a snare removal on my StamSorc currently. Simply can't really fit it.

If you switch Streak for BoL you first lose one of the best skills in the game and you're going to find another CC for which you usually simply don't have the bar space.

If you would want to slot another skill for just snare removal you're going to have a hard time finding a slot for it.
Most builds, even the proc ones need at least 4 or 5 offensive skills (mostly out of Curse, frags, BA, Rending, Ele Sus or other spammables outside of sorc).
You need Hurricane, Streak, Dark Deal and Vigor.
My build currently got:
Rending, BA, Crystal, Vigor, Streak
Surge, Hurricane, Ele Sus, Curse, Dark Deal

The only thing I can somewhat drop is BA for something like RaT, but I'll lose 8% HP as well as 8% max Stam and 10% Stam and Hp regen on my front bar.
Only other option is to run 2h and switch Surge for FM, but DW is just so much better.

Usually I am okay with just roll and Streak, but I'm still missing a snare removal occasionally.

OBJnoob

I'm running my bowsorc without snare removal as well. It works until it doesn't, LOL.

StaticWave

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I have been gone for over a year so a little out of it but are Sorcs really not running any snare removal in open world? It's a flex skill that I would swap out in a duel but I can't imagine running no snare removal in OW. Thankfully this is viable on bowsorc as their skills are a little more streamlined than melee Sorc. But oh we have to tiptoe around bowsorc since it's considered on the brink of being too strong? Hate the situation Sorc is in right now.

Aside from that question I agree, NB has way too much burst damage and loaded skills in general, much less to be able to have so little counterplay to Cloak. Sorc absolutely needs some increased efficiency to their kit. Don't even need to touch on DKs since not much has changed there the past year. There is simply not enough bar space for the things Sorc needs to slot to be competitive and any other meta class can do it much easier.

The last time I ran a snare removal was 4 years ago? With how abundant movement speed is, you can practically negate the standard 40% snare. On stamsorc without any gear investment, you can reach up to 165% walking speed in medium armor, or 155% in heavy armor. Add 40% base sprint speed and you're basically speed capped, not to mention extra sprint bonus from medium or Orc passive. All of that without investing into Swift or a Mythic. Usually if I get snared I just Streak once then sprint away.

OBJnoob

My sorc is an orc, uses a bow for major expedition, hurricane for minor, streaks, and... Hmm, well maybe I'm only wearing like 2 pieces of medium.

I still wish I had bar space for snare removal. 8 out of 10 times it's all good. Then sometimes you just feel like you have lead in your boots.

StaticWave

I think the 2 biggest pain points of Sorc right now is bar space issue and lack of defensive heals. Magsorc has it worse because they need to slot 3 offensive abilities to deal any dmg, they don't have access to better DPS sets or arena weapons, and they have absolutely zero mobility outside of Streak. Stamsorc is slightly better because it has access to strong arena weapons, better DPS sets, and more movement speed, but it has [Snip] all healing and has to rely on sets for survivability. Both classes are pretty squishy.

This makes theory crafting for both specs very limiting because you just can't play the game without addressing the survivability part. I managed to somewhat address it by stacking max HP and using Hardened Ward + Blood Magic for healing. It's done well for me, but I'm also sacrificing 8k stamina (which is equivalent to 700-800 weapon damage). I'm basically a budget HP Warden without the group utility.

ZOS doesn't need to address both issues because it can make the class too strong. But ZOS definitely needs to address one of those issues. Either one, when fixed, will make the class much more competitive than it is now.

[Edited for profanity bypass]

ZhuJiuyin

Magsorc is really at the bottom right now and desperately needs a buff.
I thought maybe some buffs to Streak and Ball of Lightning.
For example, let them all cause stunning, and under their current effect, Streak adds X points of spell / weapon damage, and Ball of Lightning gives a small damage shield.

In this way, whether it is Streak or Ball of Lightning, you can have stunning, and let Magsorc have better offensive conditions when using Streak.



Boundless Storm should also increase the range so that it matches the current melee range of 7m. And should give Major Breach when slotted, so that Magsorc's bar space can be more free.
Or let Boundless Storm reduce the cost of using Streak and Ball of Lightning while Boundless Storm is in effect, so that Magsorc can use Streak and Ball of Lightning more frequently.

Jierdanit

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Magsorc is really at the bottom right now and desperately needs a buff.
I thought maybe some buffs to Streak and Ball of Lightning.
For example, let them all cause stunning, and under their current effect, Streak adds X points of spell / weapon damage, and Ball of Lightning gives a small damage shield.

In this way, whether it is Streak or Ball of Lightning, you can have stunning, and let Magsorc have better offensive conditions when using Streak.



Boundless Storm should also increase the range so that it matches the current melee range of 7m. And should give Major Breach when slotted, so that Magsorc's bar space can be more free.
Or let Boundless Storm reduce the cost of using Streak and Ball of Lightning while Boundless Storm is in effect, so that Magsorc can use Streak and Ball of Lightning more frequently.

Buffing Streak or BoL really doesn't seem like the right idea.
Yes sorc does need buffs, but Streak is already one of the best skills in the game.
BoL might be okay with buffs, but Streak really doesn't need them.

I don't know how you would put major breach on Boundless, unless you do it like Arc armor which would really be op.
I think breach would be better on curse for example.

ZhuJiuyin

Jierdanit wrote: »

I don't know how you would put major breach on Boundless, unless you do it like Arc armor which would really be op.
I think breach would be better on curse for example.

Boundless Storm's range is too small and its damage is too low to compete with Hurricane, and Magsorc doesn't have much room for bar space, so I thought maybe giving Boundless Storm Major Breach when slotted would allow Magsorc's bar space to be more free.

It's also nice to give Major Breach when casting Curse. But in this way, most of sorc's offensive skills will be concentrated on the skill line of Daedric Summoning (at least in PVE), and I worry that it may make sorc even more inseparable from the skill line of Daedric Summoning. Especially when Bound Armor is sure to buff.

If the official focus is on the skill line of Daedric Summoning, I worry that it will make it more difficult for the other two skill lines to be buffed or reworked.

Jierdanit

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

I don't know how you would put major breach on Boundless, unless you do it like Arc armor which would really be op.
I think breach would be better on curse for example.

Boundless Storm's range is too small and its damage is too low to compete with Hurricane, and Magsorc doesn't have much room for bar space, so I thought maybe giving Boundless Storm Major Breach when slotted would allow Magsorc's bar space to be more free.

It's also nice to give Major Breach when casting Curse. But in this way, most of sorc's offensive skills will be concentrated on the skill line of Daedric Summoning (at least in PVE), and I worry that it may make sorc even more inseparable from the skill line of Daedric Summoning. Especially when Bound Armor is sure to buff.

If the official focus is on the skill line of Daedric Summoning, I worry that it will make it more difficult for the other two skill lines to be buffed or reworked.

Major Breach is a debuff you put on your enemy, how would that work while slotted on Boundless?

ZhuJiuyin

Jierdanit wrote: »

Major Breach is a debuff you put on your enemy, how would that work while slotted on Boundless?

Sorry, English is not my first language.
Please let me try to explain what I mean.
I mean, when Boundless Storm is used, when dealing damage, give the target Major Breach. Since I suggested increasing Boundless Storm's range earlier, this change will make it easier for magicSorc to give the target Major Breach.

ZOS_Volpe

Hi there,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

Chilly-McFreeze

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Major Breach is a debuff you put on your enemy, how would that work while slotted on Boundless?

Sorry, English is not my first language.
Please let me try to explain what I mean.
I mean, when Boundless Storm is used, when dealing damage, give the target Major Breach. Since I suggested increasing Boundless Storm's range earlier, this change will make it easier for magicSorc to give the target Major Breach.

Puh, I don't know if a 5/7m pb AoE breach is fitting for an ranged class. If you're hell bent on giving mS leeway skill and set there are many other options I'd consider over Mbreach on boundless. I'd even say even major prophecy on lightning form would be more usefull and fitting than breach.
I can't recall, did they compensate lightning form in any way when they halved the tick rate?

WreckfulAbandon

I mean even I would consider adding Major Prophecy/Savagery to Hurricane/BS a bit much, but then I see what they're giving NB next patch on Cloak 🙃

PhoenixGrey

Jierdanit wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Magsorc is really at the bottom right now and desperately needs a buff.
I thought maybe some buffs to Streak and Ball of Lightning.
For example, let them all cause stunning, and under their current effect, Streak adds X points of spell / weapon damage, and Ball of Lightning gives a small damage shield.

In this way, whether it is Streak or Ball of Lightning, you can have stunning, and let Magsorc have better offensive conditions when using Streak.



Boundless Storm should also increase the range so that it matches the current melee range of 7m. And should give Major Breach when slotted, so that Magsorc's bar space can be more free.
Or let Boundless Storm reduce the cost of using Streak and Ball of Lightning while Boundless Storm is in effect, so that Magsorc can use Streak and Ball of Lightning more frequently.

Buffing Streak or BoL really doesn't seem like the right idea.
Yes sorc does need buffs, but Streak is already one of the best skills in the game.
BoL might be okay with buffs, but Streak really doesn't need them.

I don't know how you would put major breach on Boundless, unless you do it like Arc armor which would really be op.
I think breach would be better on curse for example.

Removing the animation delay on streak would be a nice buff

JerBearESO

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Magsorc is really at the bottom right now and desperately needs a buff.
I thought maybe some buffs to Streak and Ball of Lightning.
For example, let them all cause stunning, and under their current effect, Streak adds X points of spell / weapon damage, and Ball of Lightning gives a small damage shield.

In this way, whether it is Streak or Ball of Lightning, you can have stunning, and let Magsorc have better offensive conditions when using Streak.



Boundless Storm should also increase the range so that it matches the current melee range of 7m. And should give Major Breach when slotted, so that Magsorc's bar space can be more free.
Or let Boundless Storm reduce the cost of using Streak and Ball of Lightning while Boundless Storm is in effect, so that Magsorc can use Streak and Ball of Lightning more frequently.

Buffing Streak or BoL really doesn't seem like the right idea.
Yes sorc does need buffs, but Streak is already one of the best skills in the game.
BoL might be okay with buffs, but Streak really doesn't need them.

I don't know how you would put major breach on Boundless, unless you do it like Arc armor which would really be op.
I think breach would be better on curse for example.

Removing the animation delay on streak would be a nice buff

That's probably there to hide detections that take enough performance to justify being spread out over multiple frames. Just a guess though....

WreckfulAbandon

Jierdanit wrote: »

I'm not running a snare removal on my StamSorc currently. Simply can't really fit it.

If you switch Streak for BoL you first lose one of the best skills in the game and you're going to find another CC for which you usually simply don't have the bar space.

If you would want to slot another skill for just snare removal you're going to have a hard time finding a slot for it.
Most builds, even the proc ones need at least 4 or 5 offensive skills (mostly out of Curse, frags, BA, Rending, Ele Sus or other spammables outside of sorc).
You need Hurricane, Streak, Dark Deal and Vigor.
My build currently got:
Rending, BA, Crystal, Vigor, Streak
Surge, Hurricane, Ele Sus, Curse, Dark Deal

The only thing I can somewhat drop is BA for something like RaT, but I'll lose 8% HP as well as 8% max Stam and 10% Stam and Hp regen on my front bar.
Only other option is to run 2h and switch Surge for FM, but DW is just so much better.

Usually I am okay with just roll and Streak, but I'm still missing a snare removal occasionally.

Yeah there is no way I would run BoL. Bowsorc can get away with a bit less but it takes really mastering the rotation 100%.

Would love to use Camo Hunter but as some have said there are some situations where a snare removal is clutch. It's just quality of life 90% of the time but that 5-10% you will die without it. Either directly or indirectly (stamina drain taking its toll).

TechMaybeHic

I just wonder why a sorc would need it for and keep trying to picture where it fits in the vate frost, master dual wield, insert other procs that seems to be common especially on sorcs. But the class should be given things to not be locked in to those sets, nor should it be designed with those sets in mind

PhoenixGrey

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I mean even I would consider adding Major Prophecy/Savagery to Hurricane/BS a bit much, but then I see what they're giving NB next patch on Cloak 🙃

I wonder what they can give nb the patch after that. There is literally nothing left to give

I always feel ZOS comes up with new status effects and major buffs just so that nb can have it lol

JerBearESO

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I mean even I would consider adding Major Prophecy/Savagery to Hurricane/BS a bit much, but then I see what they're giving NB next patch on Cloak 🙃

I wonder what they can give nb the patch after that. There is literally nothing left to give

I always feel ZOS comes up with new status effects and major buffs just so that nb can have it lol

Major force

LittlePinkDot

Jierdanit wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I have been gone for over a year so a little out of it but are Sorcs really not running any snare removal in open world? It's a flex skill that I would swap out in a duel but I can't imagine running no snare removal in OW. Thankfully this is viable on bowsorc as their skills are a little more streamlined than melee Sorc. But oh we have to tiptoe around bowsorc since it's considered on the brink of being too strong? Hate the situation Sorc is in right now.

Aside from that question I agree, NB has way too much burst damage and loaded skills in general, much less to be able to have so little counterplay to Cloak. Sorc absolutely needs some increased efficiency to their kit. Don't even need to touch on DKs since not much has changed there the past year. There is simply not enough bar space for the things Sorc needs to slot to be competitive and any other meta class can do it much easier.

I'm not running a snare removal on my StamSorc currently. Simply can't really fit it.

If you switch Streak for BoL you first lose one of the best skills in the game and you're going to find another CC for which you usually simply don't have the bar space.

If you would want to slot another skill for just snare removal you're going to have a hard time finding a slot for it.
Most builds, even the proc ones need at least 4 or 5 offensive skills (mostly out of Curse, frags, BA, Rending, Ele Sus or other spammables outside of sorc).
You need Hurricane, Streak, Dark Deal and Vigor.
My build currently got:
Rending, BA, Crystal, Vigor, Streak
Surge, Hurricane, Ele Sus, Curse, Dark Deal

The only thing I can somewhat drop is BA for something like RaT, but I'll lose 8% HP as well as 8% max Stam and 10% Stam and Hp regen on my front bar.
Only other option is to run 2h and switch Surge for FM, but DW is just so much better.

Usually I am okay with just roll and Streak, but I'm still missing a snare removal occasionally.

What about the slippery CP?

My Stam sorc build front bar is currently
Shrouded daggers, whirling blades, camo hunter, streak and haunting curse.

Back bar is vigor, radiating regeneration, hurricane, surge, dark deal.

You could also slot a potion that has snare removal.

Jierdanit

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I have been gone for over a year so a little out of it but are Sorcs really not running any snare removal in open world? It's a flex skill that I would swap out in a duel but I can't imagine running no snare removal in OW. Thankfully this is viable on bowsorc as their skills are a little more streamlined than melee Sorc. But oh we have to tiptoe around bowsorc since it's considered on the brink of being too strong? Hate the situation Sorc is in right now.

Aside from that question I agree, NB has way too much burst damage and loaded skills in general, much less to be able to have so little counterplay to Cloak. Sorc absolutely needs some increased efficiency to their kit. Don't even need to touch on DKs since not much has changed there the past year. There is simply not enough bar space for the things Sorc needs to slot to be competitive and any other meta class can do it much easier.

I'm not running a snare removal on my StamSorc currently. Simply can't really fit it.

If you switch Streak for BoL you first lose one of the best skills in the game and you're going to find another CC for which you usually simply don't have the bar space.

If you would want to slot another skill for just snare removal you're going to have a hard time finding a slot for it.
Most builds, even the proc ones need at least 4 or 5 offensive skills (mostly out of Curse, frags, BA, Rending, Ele Sus or other spammables outside of sorc).
You need Hurricane, Streak, Dark Deal and Vigor.
My build currently got:
Rending, BA, Crystal, Vigor, Streak
Surge, Hurricane, Ele Sus, Curse, Dark Deal

The only thing I can somewhat drop is BA for something like RaT, but I'll lose 8% HP as well as 8% max Stam and 10% Stam and Hp regen on my front bar.
Only other option is to run 2h and switch Surge for FM, but DW is just so much better.

Usually I am okay with just roll and Streak, but I'm still missing a snare removal occasionally.

What about the slippery CP?

My Stam sorc build front bar is currently
Shrouded daggers, whirling blades, camo hunter, streak and haunting curse.

Back bar is vigor, radiating regeneration, hurricane, surge, dark deal.

You could also slot a potion that has snare removal.

I'm basically only playing BGs, so CP won't really be an option for most of what I do.

Potions have a way too long cooldown to use as a reliable snare removal imo and im running potions as my only source of major prophecy, so i will want to basically use them on cooldown.

OBJnoob

Are there actually potions that offer snare removal? I don't tinker with potions much, but feel like that isn't a thing.

What is for sure a thing is escapist poisons though. And the cooldown on that isn't as long. Hmm... I just might have to try that myself.

WreckfulAbandon

I think they are referring to immovable pots which are much more useful for detection and kill combos than defensive use.

OBJnoob

Agreed. But immovable pots don't make you immune to snares, only hard CC.