Give Sorc an in-class source of Off Balance

Jierdanit

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Hm why are you jumping at me like meat gobblers, if I say that offbalance and breach are probably not the best buffs to ask for? As said, I think the class could use other tweaks, though. Adding major breach to any sorc skill used on live, will probably make the skill overloaded. Putting it on a non-used skill will make it compete with ele sus. And I guess we all know how good ele sus is by its own already.

I honestly do not care about offbalance though, since I do not see it benefitting sorc much as described in the previous post.

But it is fun to see people going crazy, when somebody says „be careful buffing/nerfing stuff“, when we all agree on the chisel being the better tool than the hammer for balance changes.

Sorc needs parabolic buffs to actually make it compete in pvp and not tweaks lol…

I see the idea of balance popping up only in sorc buff threads.

Magsorcs definitely do need some buffs, stamsorc is in a pretty decent place atm imo.
At least damage wise Stamsorc is among the best specs atm. You just can't really stay in fights long and have to go for a quick kill and get out again cause the defense is ***.

Can it be that stamsorc is "pretty decent" because of a combination of overperforming arena weapons & sets?

Yeah it absolutely is, still can't just straight up buff stamsorc without nerfing those sets first.

Chilly-McFreeze

Jierdanit wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Hm why are you jumping at me like meat gobblers, if I say that offbalance and breach are probably not the best buffs to ask for? As said, I think the class could use other tweaks, though. Adding major breach to any sorc skill used on live, will probably make the skill overloaded. Putting it on a non-used skill will make it compete with ele sus. And I guess we all know how good ele sus is by its own already.

I honestly do not care about offbalance though, since I do not see it benefitting sorc much as described in the previous post.

But it is fun to see people going crazy, when somebody says „be careful buffing/nerfing stuff“, when we all agree on the chisel being the better tool than the hammer for balance changes.

Sorc needs parabolic buffs to actually make it compete in pvp and not tweaks lol…

I see the idea of balance popping up only in sorc buff threads.

Magsorcs definitely do need some buffs, stamsorc is in a pretty decent place atm imo.
At least damage wise Stamsorc is among the best specs atm. You just can't really stay in fights long and have to go for a quick kill and get out again cause the defense is ***.

Can it be that stamsorc is "pretty decent" because of a combination of overperforming arena weapons & sets?

Yeah it absolutely is, still can't just straight up buff stamsorc without nerfing those sets first.

What do you think why sS heavily crutch on those and the top dog classes don't?

Jierdanit

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Hm why are you jumping at me like meat gobblers, if I say that offbalance and breach are probably not the best buffs to ask for? As said, I think the class could use other tweaks, though. Adding major breach to any sorc skill used on live, will probably make the skill overloaded. Putting it on a non-used skill will make it compete with ele sus. And I guess we all know how good ele sus is by its own already.

I honestly do not care about offbalance though, since I do not see it benefitting sorc much as described in the previous post.

But it is fun to see people going crazy, when somebody says „be careful buffing/nerfing stuff“, when we all agree on the chisel being the better tool than the hammer for balance changes.

Sorc needs parabolic buffs to actually make it compete in pvp and not tweaks lol…

I see the idea of balance popping up only in sorc buff threads.

Magsorcs definitely do need some buffs, stamsorc is in a pretty decent place atm imo.
At least damage wise Stamsorc is among the best specs atm. You just can't really stay in fights long and have to go for a quick kill and get out again cause the defense is ***.

Can it be that stamsorc is "pretty decent" because of a combination of overperforming arena weapons & sets?

Yeah it absolutely is, still can't just straight up buff stamsorc without nerfing those sets first.

What do you think why sS heavily crutch on those and the top dog classes don't?

I know that stamsorc crutches on them because it isn't particularly great otherwise, but the only classes that can seriously be considered top tier without them are DK and NB atm.

I'm playing StamSorc main, I know that the class by itself is in a bad place atm, still doesn't change that it can make pretty good use of the procs making it quite decent with them.

StaticWave

I would rather not depend on sets to do well tbh. Buffs to a class shouldn’t be gatekeeped by certain builds.

Jierdanit

StaticWave wrote: »

I would rather not depend on sets to do well tbh. Buffs to a class shouldn’t be gatekeeped by certain builds.

The problem with that is that if you buff a class like that it might now be playable properly without the sets, but with the sets it might be way too strong.
You can't just not take the strongest build into account either, they should balance every class so there is not just 1 definitely strongest build, but as long as there is you definitely have to take it into account while balancing the class.

I would rather not be forced to run Master DW and other procs either, but as long as that build is as strong as it is I can understand why sorc isn't getting any straight up buffs.

Lumenn

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I would rather not depend on sets to do well tbh. Buffs to a class shouldn’t be gatekeeped by certain builds.

The problem with that is that if you buff a class like that it might now be playable properly without the sets, but with the sets it might be way too strong.
You can't just not take the strongest build into account either, they should balance every class so there is not just 1 definitely strongest build, but as long as there is you definitely have to take it into account while balancing the class.

I would rather not be forced to run Master DW and other procs either, but as long as that build is as strong as it is I can understand why sorc isn't getting any straight up buffs.

I see where you're coming from, but EQ was famous for doing junk like that. They'd nerf a whole class for an item the top 1% could get. Problem was they seemed to forget to give out the items to everyone to balance it out, and the class was garbage until you got it.

Itemization shouldn't hold a class back. Unless of course I'm expecting my complimentary master dw and other set in the mail for my start up baby account....

StaticWave

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I would rather not depend on sets to do well tbh. Buffs to a class shouldn’t be gatekeeped by certain builds.

The problem with that is that if you buff a class like that it might now be playable properly without the sets, but with the sets it might be way too strong.
You can't just not take the strongest build into account either, they should balance every class so there is not just 1 definitely strongest build, but as long as there is you definitely have to take it into account while balancing the class.

I would rather not be forced to run Master DW and other procs either, but as long as that build is as strong as it is I can understand why sorc isn't getting any straight up buffs.

Then just nerf the sets because a DK/Warden/NB running those sets are just as strong, if not stronger.

StaticWave

This was the same argument used against buffing stamsorc when stacking 3 procs to 1 shot players was meta. When the procs got nerfed nobody played the class cause it was [snip].

If everyone keeps using that argument to gatekeep sorc buffs then the class will never be buffed. I don't care if they are performing well in proc sets. Class imbalance still exists and proc builds just mask the issue. Place a DK in mDW, Vate Ice, Maarselok against a Sorc in the same build and can you tell me if the Sorc will win?

[edited for profanity bypass]

StaticWave

And if we go by that logic of sets being taken into consideration for balance suggestions, then a lot of classes should be getting nerf hammers.

DKs should be nerfed because the top DK builds currently use mDW + Vate Ice + Maarselok and kill most classes.

Wardens should be nerfed because they still have kill potential in 45k+ HP.

NBs should be nerfed because they are landing 15k+ bow procs while sitting at 31k armor and over 3.5k crit resistance.

A lot of these classes should be getting nerfed but they aren't, yet Sorc can't get any buffs because they might be broken?

Jierdanit

StaticWave wrote: »

Then just nerf the sets because a DK/Warden/NB running those sets are just as strong, if not stronger.

Yeah the sets absolutely need to be nerfed and then sorc should be buffed.
Procsets offer way too much damage in comparison to what you can get with stat sets.

StaticWave wrote: »

And if we go by that logic of sets being taken into consideration for balance suggestions, then a lot of classes should be getting nerf hammers.

DKs should be nerfed because the top DK builds currently use mDW + Vate Ice + Maarselok and kill most classes.

Wardens should be nerfed because they still have kill potential in 45k+ HP.

NBs should be nerfed because they are landing 15k+ bow procs while sitting at 31k armor and over 3.5k crit resistance.

A lot of these classes should be getting nerfed but they aren't, yet Sorc can't get any buffs because they might be broken?

DK should definitely get nerfed, they are way too strong atm.
Though they are just generally strong, I don't think running those procs is even optimal on DK.

Warden and NB are not as bad as DK, but could still both use a nerf, since they can both get very tanky and still have really high burst.

I never meant to say that sorc doesn't need buffs in general if that is what you understood.
I just think that those sets need to be nerfed first. Proc sets should be an addition to a build and not half of its damage.

Lumenn wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I would rather not depend on sets to do well tbh. Buffs to a class shouldn’t be gatekeeped by certain builds.

The problem with that is that if you buff a class like that it might now be playable properly without the sets, but with the sets it might be way too strong.
You can't just not take the strongest build into account either, they should balance every class so there is not just 1 definitely strongest build, but as long as there is you definitely have to take it into account while balancing the class.

I would rather not be forced to run Master DW and other procs either, but as long as that build is as strong as it is I can understand why sorc isn't getting any straight up buffs.

I see where you're coming from, but EQ was famous for doing junk like that. They'd nerf a whole class for an item the top 1% could get. Problem was they seemed to forget to give out the items to everyone to balance it out, and the class was garbage until you got it.

Itemization shouldn't hold a class back. Unless of course I'm expecting my complimentary master dw and other set in the mail for my start up baby account....

I don't think balancing should be done with suboptimal builds in mind. In ESO you barely have any item sets that are very hard to get and nothing that only "the top 1% can get".
Anyone who wants to seriously play any Endgame content in ESO is going to need to get good sets.

I'm playing mainly BGs, so I don't really know how it looks outside of that. In the mmr that I am in barely anyone is running anything but meta builds. With almost every stamSorc running something like a Master DW proc build.
Imo any of those can be seen as some sort of meta builds.

Yes the class by itself needs buffs, but it shouldn't get them unless those sets are nerfed to a point where the meta sorc builds don't get to strong.
At least that is my opinion.

Turtle_Bot

The problem with holding back buffs to sorcs is that for every stamsorc that is complained about as "potentially being too OP if buffed", there's a dozen magsorcs collecting dust at the crafting tables because they are a strictly inferior version.

There's plenty of ways to buff magsorc without specifically overbuffing stamsorc, it's just that we constantly only ever get the attitude of "must be careful when buffing sorc" like magsorcs are still the top tier threat they used to be over 5 years ago so there's never the chance to actually put forward and test ideas to actually see if they would make the class OP or not.

Some simple changes that would help magsorc but leave stamsorc at relatively the same power level as current.

- A shock damage instant melee spammable. Stamina will still have dizzy or masters DW, but mag now gets something that synergizes with the class passives that is more reliable and not compounding the all damage being back end damage issue the class has. This also grants access to the stronger melee weapons as options for magsorc so they're not locked to the objectively weaker staves for a spammable.
- minor breach on curse, stam already has sundered that inflicts minor breach so no change to stamsorc there outside of maybe slightly more reliable uptime on the minor debuff.
- make bound armaments/aegis grant both max mag and max stam (5% instead of 8%) and armaments deals a different type of damage based off the higher of your max resource so it can be hybridized. shock for mag, phys for stam and a small crit chance boost per active floating dagger to give it something to bring it closer to MR.
- give lightning form/hurricane major prophecy/savagery, that buff should have been in the class kit from the beginning and being on lightning form will finally give (mag)sorcs a reason to slot their armor buff again over being forced into chudan to keep the bar space free enough for everything they need and won't change all that much for stamsorc since they already run hurricane.
- fix up the passives, daedric protection should increase all 3 recoveries, not just stam + health, or better yet, move that passive to capacitor and replace it with a passive that buffs the size of damage shields and reduces their cost.

Outside of those changes, the class would just need a more reliable heal, maybe rework matriarch to be instant cast heal that summons a stationary DoT summon that has a duration that doesn't require double bar (similar to NB shade DoT, but without the minor maim or teleport secondary ability), keep tormentor as the permanent pet/dot since its not a defensive ability.

Don't get me wrong static, stamsorc definitely needs a lot of help to get it off of its crutch of proc sets and a nerf to those sets would be more than warranted (and supported by myself and majority of sorc mains) if sorc were to get a functional kit, but lets at least start testing things (even if its only magsorcs for now and stamsorcs afterwards) to then help to find out what will actually help the class to stand on its own 2 feet as a class without being overpowered instead of having it relying entirely on proc sets to have any chance of doing well.

Sorc has already had its "dead class" patch and very recently too (U35/36, the class just did not exist in PvP, to the point that kill sorc quests were instantly abandoned during those 2 patches), no need to put it through another one of those phases so soon by nerfing the proc sets that are carrying the class into the ground without significantly buffing/reworking sorc first (or at least at the same time).

Chilly-McFreeze

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Then just nerf the sets because a DK/Warden/NB running those sets are just as strong, if not stronger.

Yeah the sets absolutely need to be nerfed and then sorc should be buffed.
Procsets offer way too much damage in comparison to what you can get with stat sets.

StaticWave wrote: »

And if we go by that logic of sets being taken into consideration for balance suggestions, then a lot of classes should be getting nerf hammers.

DKs should be nerfed because the top DK builds currently use mDW + Vate Ice + Maarselok and kill most classes.

Wardens should be nerfed because they still have kill potential in 45k+ HP.

NBs should be nerfed because they are landing 15k+ bow procs while sitting at 31k armor and over 3.5k crit resistance.

A lot of these classes should be getting nerfed but they aren't, yet Sorc can't get any buffs because they might be broken?

DK should definitely get nerfed, they are way too strong atm.
Though they are just generally strong, I don't think running those procs is even optimal on DK.

Warden and NB are not as bad as DK, but could still both use a nerf, since they can both get very tanky and still have really high burst.

I never meant to say that sorc doesn't need buffs in general if that is what you understood.
I just think that those sets need to be nerfed first. Proc sets should be an addition to a build and not half of its damage.

Lumenn wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I would rather not depend on sets to do well tbh. Buffs to a class shouldn’t be gatekeeped by certain builds.

The problem with that is that if you buff a class like that it might now be playable properly without the sets, but with the sets it might be way too strong.
You can't just not take the strongest build into account either, they should balance every class so there is not just 1 definitely strongest build, but as long as there is you definitely have to take it into account while balancing the class.

I would rather not be forced to run Master DW and other procs either, but as long as that build is as strong as it is I can understand why sorc isn't getting any straight up buffs.

I see where you're coming from, but EQ was famous for doing junk like that. They'd nerf a whole class for an item the top 1% could get. Problem was they seemed to forget to give out the items to everyone to balance it out, and the class was garbage until you got it.

Itemization shouldn't hold a class back. Unless of course I'm expecting my complimentary master dw and other set in the mail for my start up baby account....

I don't think balancing should be done with suboptimal builds in mind. In ESO you barely have any item sets that are very hard to get and nothing that only "the top 1% can get".
Anyone who wants to seriously play any Endgame content in ESO is going to need to get good sets.

I'm playing mainly BGs, so I don't really know how it looks outside of that. In the mmr that I am in barely anyone is running anything but meta builds. With almost every stamSorc running something like a Master DW proc build.
Imo any of those can be seen as some sort of meta builds.

Yes the class by itself needs buffs, but it shouldn't get them unless those sets are nerfed to a point where the meta sorc builds don't get to strong.
At least that is my opinion.

Issue with that is, that it Not just shoehorns classes into specific sets but it creates issues when a certain set gets changed. You create a situation were whole classes depend on set balancing while it should be the other way around. Top priority should be creating functional, viable classes. And then you balance sets around the shenanigans potential they create on specific builds. Or would you like having your class nerfed everytime another strong set is released?

Don’t force classes into specific sets.
Don’t make classes unviable outside of meta builds.
Set class balance as priority, set Balance as secondary.

StaticWave

This is what I currently run for my melee sorc on PC NA, arguably the strongest stat build for this class (until I lose to another Sorc in stat sets):




This build can beat a Sorc using mDW, Vate Ice, and Maarselok, which what most players consider meta for this class. But when I run into a competent DK in those proc sets, a NB in Rallying Cry and Way of Fire, a Magden in Rallying Cry and Frostbite, I literally struggle to kill them.

It has nothing to do with me performing subpar. I've dueled so much I can remember the rotations of each class and what exactly to do when I run into them. It has to do with class imbalance. No matter what I do, I simply do not have the survivability or enough damage to kill them.

While those 3 classes can chill at 30k HP and still be tanky, I have to resort to stacking 38k HP and losing out of 8k worth of stam, equivalent to slightly less than 800 wd, less max resources, and still struggle to survive. What do you think will happen when those classes build 38k HP? I won't have a chance of killing them, at all.

This is why we need to stop bringing up sets for balance suggestions. Some classes are hard capped by their design, no matter how much you try to improve them. At that point, it is not up to me to improve my class, but ZOS. They have the power to change this, and we need to push them until it happens.

Jierdanit

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Then just nerf the sets because a DK/Warden/NB running those sets are just as strong, if not stronger.

Yeah the sets absolutely need to be nerfed and then sorc should be buffed.
Procsets offer way too much damage in comparison to what you can get with stat sets.

StaticWave wrote: »

And if we go by that logic of sets being taken into consideration for balance suggestions, then a lot of classes should be getting nerf hammers.

DKs should be nerfed because the top DK builds currently use mDW + Vate Ice + Maarselok and kill most classes.

Wardens should be nerfed because they still have kill potential in 45k+ HP.

NBs should be nerfed because they are landing 15k+ bow procs while sitting at 31k armor and over 3.5k crit resistance.

A lot of these classes should be getting nerfed but they aren't, yet Sorc can't get any buffs because they might be broken?

DK should definitely get nerfed, they are way too strong atm.
Though they are just generally strong, I don't think running those procs is even optimal on DK.

Warden and NB are not as bad as DK, but could still both use a nerf, since they can both get very tanky and still have really high burst.

I never meant to say that sorc doesn't need buffs in general if that is what you understood.
I just think that those sets need to be nerfed first. Proc sets should be an addition to a build and not half of its damage.

Lumenn wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I would rather not depend on sets to do well tbh. Buffs to a class shouldn’t be gatekeeped by certain builds.

The problem with that is that if you buff a class like that it might now be playable properly without the sets, but with the sets it might be way too strong.
You can't just not take the strongest build into account either, they should balance every class so there is not just 1 definitely strongest build, but as long as there is you definitely have to take it into account while balancing the class.

I would rather not be forced to run Master DW and other procs either, but as long as that build is as strong as it is I can understand why sorc isn't getting any straight up buffs.

I see where you're coming from, but EQ was famous for doing junk like that. They'd nerf a whole class for an item the top 1% could get. Problem was they seemed to forget to give out the items to everyone to balance it out, and the class was garbage until you got it.

Itemization shouldn't hold a class back. Unless of course I'm expecting my complimentary master dw and other set in the mail for my start up baby account....

I don't think balancing should be done with suboptimal builds in mind. In ESO you barely have any item sets that are very hard to get and nothing that only "the top 1% can get".
Anyone who wants to seriously play any Endgame content in ESO is going to need to get good sets.

I'm playing mainly BGs, so I don't really know how it looks outside of that. In the mmr that I am in barely anyone is running anything but meta builds. With almost every stamSorc running something like a Master DW proc build.
Imo any of those can be seen as some sort of meta builds.

Yes the class by itself needs buffs, but it shouldn't get them unless those sets are nerfed to a point where the meta sorc builds don't get to strong.
At least that is my opinion.

Issue with that is, that it Not just shoehorns classes into specific sets but it creates issues when a certain set gets changed. You create a situation were whole classes depend on set balancing while it should be the other way around. Top priority should be creating functional, viable classes. And then you balance sets around the shenanigans potential they create on specific builds. Or would you like having your class nerfed everytime another strong set is released?

Don’t force classes into specific sets.
Don’t make classes unviable outside of meta builds.
Set class balance as priority, set Balance as secondary.

I never disagreed with that. I never liked playing proc sets, but I'm running them cause they're op af.

I'd love it if those sets were nerfed and sorc buffed. I just don't see ZOS putting in that much work based of past experiences.

Jierdanit

StaticWave wrote: »

This is what I currently run for my melee sorc on PC NA, arguably the strongest stat build for this class (until I lose to another Sorc in stat sets):




This build can beat a Sorc using mDW, Vate Ice, and Maarselok, which what most players consider meta for this class. But when I run into a competent DK in those proc sets, a NB in Rallying Cry and Way of Fire, a Magden in Rallying Cry and Frostbite, I literally struggle to kill them.

It has nothing to do with me performing subpar. I've dueled so much I can remember the rotations of each class and what exactly to do when I run into them. It has to do with class imbalance. No matter what I do, I simply do not have the survivability or enough damage to kill them.

While those 3 classes can chill at 30k HP and still be tanky, I have to resort to stacking 38k HP and losing out of 8k worth of stam, equivalent to slightly less than 800 wd, less max resources, and still struggle to survive. What do you think will happen when those classes build 38k HP? I won't have a chance of killing them, at all.

This is why we need to stop bringing up sets for balance suggestions. Some classes are hard capped by their design, no matter how much you try to improve them. At that point, it is not up to me to improve my class, but ZOS. They have the power to change this, and we need to push them until it happens.

Sets are part of the balance suggestions, whether you like it or not. Every single build in the game is going to include sets as a key part, in lots of instances more important than anything else.

Yes certain classes are considerably stronger than others and that needs to somehow be balanced. But if you just leave sets out of that conversation you're never going to get proper balance because some classes will always be able to make better use of sets than others.

In general I agree that classes should be balanced by themselves first and then the sets should be balanced according to that.
I just don't find it realistic that changes so big are actually going to happen.
The problem is that it requires more knowledge of eso than I think anyone working for ZOS has and more work than they are willing to do in a single patch.

This last patch without actually new content could have perfectly been the one to do some bigger changes to balance, but we for some reason still got less balance changes than in lots of other patches.

StaticWave

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is what I currently run for my melee sorc on PC NA, arguably the strongest stat build for this class (until I lose to another Sorc in stat sets):




This build can beat a Sorc using mDW, Vate Ice, and Maarselok, which what most players consider meta for this class. But when I run into a competent DK in those proc sets, a NB in Rallying Cry and Way of Fire, a Magden in Rallying Cry and Frostbite, I literally struggle to kill them.

It has nothing to do with me performing subpar. I've dueled so much I can remember the rotations of each class and what exactly to do when I run into them. It has to do with class imbalance. No matter what I do, I simply do not have the survivability or enough damage to kill them.

While those 3 classes can chill at 30k HP and still be tanky, I have to resort to stacking 38k HP and losing out of 8k worth of stam, equivalent to slightly less than 800 wd, less max resources, and still struggle to survive. What do you think will happen when those classes build 38k HP? I won't have a chance of killing them, at all.

This is why we need to stop bringing up sets for balance suggestions. Some classes are hard capped by their design, no matter how much you try to improve them. At that point, it is not up to me to improve my class, but ZOS. They have the power to change this, and we need to push them until it happens.

Sets are part of the balance suggestions, whether you like it or not. Every single build in the game is going to include sets as a key part, in lots of instances more important than anything else.

Yes certain classes are considerably stronger than others and that needs to somehow be balanced. But if you just leave sets out of that conversation you're never going to get proper balance because some classes will always be able to make better use of sets than others.

In general I agree that classes should be balanced by themselves first and then the sets should be balanced according to that.
I just don't find it realistic that changes so big are actually going to happen.
The problem is that it requires more knowledge of eso than I think anyone working for ZOS has and more work than they are willing to do in a single patch.

This last patch without actually new content could have perfectly been the one to do some bigger changes to balance, but we for some reason still got less balance changes than in lots of other patches.

Sets are part of class balance, but should not be a huge factor. Look at end game PvE for example. Every stam class is likely running the same DPS build, yet some classes perform better than others.

This applies to PvP too. There are only a handful of decent sets in the game, and some of them are being used by everyone (mDW/Vate Ice). Yet, some classes perform better than others.

This is due to class balance, at its core. If you strip everything off, the classes that performed better with those sets will still perform better naked.

Denying Sorc of buffs because of 1 build is doing a huge disservice for the class. What about other builds? NB can slot anything and perform well. So does Dk. So does Warden.

Jierdanit

StaticWave wrote: »

Sets are part of class balance, but should not be a huge factor. Look at end game PvE for example. Every stam class is likely running the same DPS build, yet some classes perform better than others.

This applies to PvP too. There are only a handful of decent sets in the game, and some of them are being used by everyone (mDW/Vate Ice). Yet, some classes perform better than others.

This is due to class balance, at its core. If you strip everything off, the classes that performed better with those sets will still perform better naked.

Denying Sorc of buffs because of 1 build is doing a huge disservice for the class. What about other builds? NB can slot anything and perform well. So does Dk. So does Warden.

Saying any class can slot anything is just wrong. Yeah they can slot more but even DKs choose from maybe 10 different sets and that's it.
In general there is way too little choice in builds because some sets just seriously outperform the rest.

Also from my experience except for DK no class really outperforms StamSorc with those sets and that's just cause DKs basically outperform everything as soon as they are wearing anything close to meta.

Yes Sorc with any other build is weaker than almost everything else, but if you buff sorc and that build stays the same you're going to get people complaining that sorc is too strong instantly.
You can't exclusively balance depending on the strongest build, but you can't ignore it either.
I get why you want sorc to be more playable with other builds, I do too, but I don't want anything in the game to be too strong. Especially because you might then be capable of running more different builds on sorc, but the ones running the meta are still going to be stronger.

StaticWave

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Sets are part of class balance, but should not be a huge factor. Look at end game PvE for example. Every stam class is likely running the same DPS build, yet some classes perform better than others.

This applies to PvP too. There are only a handful of decent sets in the game, and some of them are being used by everyone (mDW/Vate Ice). Yet, some classes perform better than others.

This is due to class balance, at its core. If you strip everything off, the classes that performed better with those sets will still perform better naked.

Denying Sorc of buffs because of 1 build is doing a huge disservice for the class. What about other builds? NB can slot anything and perform well. So does Dk. So does Warden.

Saying any class can slot anything is just wrong. Yeah they can slot more but even DKs choose from maybe 10 different sets and that's it.
In general there is way too little choice in builds because some sets just seriously outperform the rest.

Also from my experience except for DK no class really outperforms StamSorc with those sets and that's just cause DKs basically outperform everything as soon as they are wearing anything close to meta.

Yes Sorc with any other build is weaker than almost everything else, but if you buff sorc and that build stays the same you're going to get people complaining that sorc is too strong instantly.
You can't exclusively balance depending on the strongest build, but you can't ignore it either.
I get why you want sorc to be more playable with other builds, I do too, but I don't want anything in the game to be too strong. Especially because you might then be capable of running more different builds on sorc, but the ones running the meta are still going to be stronger.

Yea and most competitive DKs are in mDW/Vate Ice and dunking on Sorcs in the same build. How is that wrong lol?

NB and Warden will kill a Sorc in those sets. They have better defense and more efficient bar space.

Your opinion is skewed because you are using a meta build that’s not only easy to play, but also too effective for amount of effort required. Conveniently, it’s also usable for the vast majority of classes. I have played both that meta build and my current build, and I can tell you right now stamsorc is hard carried by proc sets and are [snip] without them.

Quite frankly, I am not going to wait for ZOS to nerf those sets before asking for buffs. As soon as the sets get nerfed all the FOTM sorcs disappear because they now actually have to use some brainpower to get kills, and they’ll realize how bad the class is without those proc set crutches. Most of them don’t make it past the average skill level when stripped off their proc crutch, and move on to other classes.

Try the stat build I posted. If you can still perform well against the same opponents, then I will reconsider my stance. Until then, we will have to agree to disagree.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Jierdanit

StaticWave wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Sets are part of class balance, but should not be a huge factor. Look at end game PvE for example. Every stam class is likely running the same DPS build, yet some classes perform better than others.

This applies to PvP too. There are only a handful of decent sets in the game, and some of them are being used by everyone (mDW/Vate Ice). Yet, some classes perform better than others.

This is due to class balance, at its core. If you strip everything off, the classes that performed better with those sets will still perform better naked.

Denying Sorc of buffs because of 1 build is doing a huge disservice for the class. What about other builds? NB can slot anything and perform well. So does Dk. So does Warden.

Saying any class can slot anything is just wrong. Yeah they can slot more but even DKs choose from maybe 10 different sets and that's it.
In general there is way too little choice in builds because some sets just seriously outperform the rest.

Also from my experience except for DK no class really outperforms StamSorc with those sets and that's just cause DKs basically outperform everything as soon as they are wearing anything close to meta.

Yes Sorc with any other build is weaker than almost everything else, but if you buff sorc and that build stays the same you're going to get people complaining that sorc is too strong instantly.
You can't exclusively balance depending on the strongest build, but you can't ignore it either.
I get why you want sorc to be more playable with other builds, I do too, but I don't want anything in the game to be too strong. Especially because you might then be capable of running more different builds on sorc, but the ones running the meta are still going to be stronger.

Yea and most competitive DKs are in mDW/Vate Ice and dunking on Sorcs in the same build. How is that wrong lol?

NB and Warden will kill a Sorc in those sets. They have better defense and more efficient bar space.

Your opinion is skewed because you are using a meta build that’s not only easy to play, but also too effective for amount of effort required. Conveniently, it’s also usable for the vast majority of classes. I have played both that meta build and my current build, and I can tell you right now stamsorc is hard carried by proc sets and are [snip] without them.

Quite frankly, I am not going to wait for ZOS to nerf those sets before asking for buffs. As soon as the sets get nerfed all the FOTM sorcs disappear because they now actually have to use some brainpower to get kills, and they’ll realize how bad the class is without those proc set crutches. Most of them don’t make it past the average skill level when stripped off their proc crutch, and move on to other classes.

Try the stat build I posted. If you can still perform well against the same opponents, then I will reconsider my stance. Until then, we will have to agree to disagree.

That might be different from PC NA to PC EU, but I rarely see DKs, NBs or Wardens in those builds in BGs.
Most DKs are corro builds that one-shot you with 15k+ whips, NBs are mostly either gank/bomb or RC + NMG/Wretched.
Wardens you occasionally running that build, but imo as soon as you're running ele sus on Warden you're doing something wrong.

I'm using a meta build rn yeah. I've tried about 15+ other builds on stamsorc this and last patch before that and I didn't perform badly on those, but it's just no fun to play a build when you know that you would perform considerably better with meta [snip].
I'm not just playing stamSorc atm because procsorc is strong [snip], I've mainly played it for at least like 4 or 5 years at this point.

I might give your build a try when I can, I don't like having to rely on procs for my dmg either, it just felt so much better than anything else I tried.

[edited for profanity bypass & re-quoting]

StaticWave

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Sets are part of class balance, but should not be a huge factor. Look at end game PvE for example. Every stam class is likely running the same DPS build, yet some classes perform better than others.

This applies to PvP too. There are only a handful of decent sets in the game, and some of them are being used by everyone (mDW/Vate Ice). Yet, some classes perform better than others.

This is due to class balance, at its core. If you strip everything off, the classes that performed better with those sets will still perform better naked.

Denying Sorc of buffs because of 1 build is doing a huge disservice for the class. What about other builds? NB can slot anything and perform well. So does Dk. So does Warden.

Saying any class can slot anything is just wrong. Yeah they can slot more but even DKs choose from maybe 10 different sets and that's it.
In general there is way too little choice in builds because some sets just seriously outperform the rest.

Also from my experience except for DK no class really outperforms StamSorc with those sets and that's just cause DKs basically outperform everything as soon as they are wearing anything close to meta.

Yes Sorc with any other build is weaker than almost everything else, but if you buff sorc and that build stays the same you're going to get people complaining that sorc is too strong instantly.
You can't exclusively balance depending on the strongest build, but you can't ignore it either.
I get why you want sorc to be more playable with other builds, I do too, but I don't want anything in the game to be too strong. Especially because you might then be capable of running more different builds on sorc, but the ones running the meta are still going to be stronger.

Yea and most competitive DKs are in mDW/Vate Ice and dunking on Sorcs in the same build. How is that wrong lol?

NB and Warden will kill a Sorc in those sets. They have better defense and more efficient bar space.

Your opinion is skewed because you are using a meta build that’s not only easy to play, but also too effective for amount of effort required. Conveniently, it’s also usable for the vast majority of classes. I have played both that meta build and my current build, and I can tell you right now stamsorc is hard carried by proc sets and are [snip] without them.

Quite frankly, I am not going to wait for ZOS to nerf those sets before asking for buffs. As soon as the sets get nerfed all the FOTM sorcs disappear because they now actually have to use some brainpower to get kills, and they’ll realize how bad the class is without those proc set crutches. Most of them don’t make it past the average skill level when stripped off their proc crutch, and move on to other classes.

Try the stat build I posted. If you can still perform well against the same opponents, then I will reconsider my stance. Until then, we will have to agree to disagree.

That might be different from PC NA to PC EU, but I rarely see DKs, NBs or Wardens in those builds in BGs.
Most DKs are corro builds that one-shot you with 15k+ whips, NBs are mostly either gank/bomb or RC + NMG/Wretched.
Wardens you occasionally running that build, but imo as soon as you're running ele sus on Warden you're doing something wrong.

I'm using a meta build rn yeah. I've tried about 15+ other builds on stamsorc this and last patch before that and I didn't perform badly on those, but it's just no fun to play a build when you know that you would perform considerably better with meta [snip].
I'm not just playing stamSorc atm because procsorc is strong [snip], I've mainly played it for at least like 4 or 5 years at this point.

I might give your build a try when I can, I don't like having to rely on procs for my dmg either, it just felt so much better than anything else I tried.

Yea I’m a theorycrafter and part of the fun for me is finding out what works and what doesn’t. It just sucks that master DW is pretty much mandatory for most stamsorc builds. I’ve used it for 2 years and theorycrafting is so limited due to this necessity of slotting certain sets.

I would rather have the class reworked to a point where some sets aren’t mandatory but will give you just a bit more advantage.

Right now master DW+Vate Ice increase my DPS by almost 1000. That’s a lot lol. I average 3k-3.5k DPS in my stat build. Imagine slotting 2 arena weapons and your DPS increase by almost 1k. It’s too imbalanced and kills theorycrafting.

[edited to remove quote]

Jierdanit

StaticWave wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Sets are part of class balance, but should not be a huge factor. Look at end game PvE for example. Every stam class is likely running the same DPS build, yet some classes perform better than others.

This applies to PvP too. There are only a handful of decent sets in the game, and some of them are being used by everyone (mDW/Vate Ice). Yet, some classes perform better than others.

This is due to class balance, at its core. If you strip everything off, the classes that performed better with those sets will still perform better naked.

Denying Sorc of buffs because of 1 build is doing a huge disservice for the class. What about other builds? NB can slot anything and perform well. So does Dk. So does Warden.

Saying any class can slot anything is just wrong. Yeah they can slot more but even DKs choose from maybe 10 different sets and that's it.
In general there is way too little choice in builds because some sets just seriously outperform the rest.

Also from my experience except for DK no class really outperforms StamSorc with those sets and that's just cause DKs basically outperform everything as soon as they are wearing anything close to meta.

Yes Sorc with any other build is weaker than almost everything else, but if you buff sorc and that build stays the same you're going to get people complaining that sorc is too strong instantly.
You can't exclusively balance depending on the strongest build, but you can't ignore it either.
I get why you want sorc to be more playable with other builds, I do too, but I don't want anything in the game to be too strong. Especially because you might then be capable of running more different builds on sorc, but the ones running the meta are still going to be stronger.

Yea and most competitive DKs are in mDW/Vate Ice and dunking on Sorcs in the same build. How is that wrong lol?

NB and Warden will kill a Sorc in those sets. They have better defense and more efficient bar space.

Your opinion is skewed because you are using a meta build that’s not only easy to play, but also too effective for amount of effort required. Conveniently, it’s also usable for the vast majority of classes. I have played both that meta build and my current build, and I can tell you right now stamsorc is hard carried by proc sets and are [snip] without them.

Quite frankly, I am not going to wait for ZOS to nerf those sets before asking for buffs. As soon as the sets get nerfed all the FOTM sorcs disappear because they now actually have to use some brainpower to get kills, and they’ll realize how bad the class is without those proc set crutches. Most of them don’t make it past the average skill level when stripped off their proc crutch, and move on to other classes.

Try the stat build I posted. If you can still perform well against the same opponents, then I will reconsider my stance. Until then, we will have to agree to disagree.

That might be different from PC NA to PC EU, but I rarely see DKs, NBs or Wardens in those builds in BGs.
Most DKs are corro builds that one-shot you with 15k+ whips, NBs are mostly either gank/bomb or RC + NMG/Wretched.
Wardens you occasionally running that build, but imo as soon as you're running ele sus on Warden you're doing something wrong.

I'm using a meta build rn yeah. I've tried about 15+ other builds on stamsorc this and last patch before that and I didn't perform badly on those, but it's just no fun to play a build when you know that you would perform considerably better with meta [snip].
I'm not just playing stamSorc atm because procsorc is strong [snip], I've mainly played it for at least like 4 or 5 years at this point.

I might give your build a try when I can, I don't like having to rely on procs for my dmg either, it just felt so much better than anything else I tried.

Yea I’m a theorycrafter and part of the fun for me is finding out what works and what doesn’t. It just sucks that master DW is pretty much mandatory for most stamsorc builds. I’ve used it for 2 years and theorycrafting is so limited due to this necessity of slotting certain sets.

I would rather have the class reworked to a point where some sets aren’t mandatory but will give you just a bit more advantage.

Right now master DW+Vate Ice increase my DPS by almost 1000. That’s a lot lol. I average 3k-3.5k DPS in my stat build. Imagine slotting 2 arena weapons and your DPS increase by almost 1k. It’s too imbalanced and kills theorycrafting.

Yeah I know what you mean. I switched to the standard Maarselok, Dragon's Appetite, Master DW, Vate Ice not that long ago.

Was running a build that I made myself that was working quite decently before that, until I dueled a StamPlar running a similar build to the Maarselok one and saw how much more damage that is.

As soon as I switched to that build my 1v1 Dps went from about 3k - 3.5k to 4k - 4.5k+.
Simply insane how much damage Maarselok and Vate add.

[edited to remove quote]

OBJnoob

So, weighing in on the whole "classes getting carried by proc sets" thing, I've been maining a stamsorc lately as well. And I play in Ravenwatch. Not exclusively-- but that's what this current toon is geared for, and that's where I've done the majority of my PvP through-out my 5 years.

Not gonna go into my build because it's not real important. What is important is what I'm not using. I'm not using any meta sets, as referred to in this discussion, because they don't work. Nor are my opponents.

I've felt very strong lately. It's been a good week. Winning 1v1s, 1v2s, 1v6s... And the point of this isn't to brag. I'm quite sure I'm a tier below what some people on these forums are capable of.

I think Ravenwatch is a good place to look to see how classes are balanced against eachother.

And frankly I think stamsorc is okay. Which isn't to say they couldn't use a buff or two-- they absolutely could-- but they are a LOT further from the dumpster than some people think. Templars are too, for that matter. People want to talk about how stamsorc only performs well with meta arena proc blahblah, yeah okay, but keep in mind that's because your opponents are using the same thing. Naturally you would need to gear up to compete. And naturally NBs and DKs might still beat you... We all know they need nerfs.

So I'm not sure who I'm agreeing with and who I'm disagreeing with. I'm just preaching caution I guess, because sorcs really aren't that bad. And we need to stop using DK and NB as our measuring stick. Because those classes are wickedly OP and not only because other classes aren't as strong but also because they're just objectively too strong. The game loses a lot when characters are so easily well rounded and hard to kill. Adding sorc, or templar, or whatever to the list of unkillable classes isn't the answer.

OtarTheMad

Classes need to feel unique and different with different strengths and weaknesses to appeal to others play styles. We don’t need every class with all the buffs.

Jierdanit

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Classes need to feel unique and different with different strengths and weaknesses to appeal to others play styles. We don’t need every class with all the buffs.

That only works if the classes are actually still similarly strong though.

And atm most buffs are included in the toolkit of lots of classes and the ones without are generally weaker (just look at necro)

Generally I would like for classes to be different from eachother too, but I doubt ZOS is capable of properly balancing that.

OBJnoob

Sorcs have a lot of uniqueness. Some of it is only skin deep-- like the way hurricane looks (which I love.) And some of it is outdated-- like shields. And some of it is unwanted-- like pets.

But what is the PvP playstyle? What does all of this add up to and recommend us to try?

It seems to me like sorcs are supposed to kite (streak,) not burst heal (shields instead,) and heal from staying on offense (crit surge and blood magic passive.)

So it is perhaps fair that they are good for zipping around mashing potatoes but not the best in 1v1s against capable opponents who can withstand damage, heal, and close a gap.

It is however possible that they are a little too weak. That they should at least have a chance to outplay for victory.

Static has a lot of good ideas for this. And if you read them all you may think he wants the class to be OP. But he doesn't. He just wants one or some of what he throws at the wall to stick. He knows sorcs can't have it all.

If I had to pick one buff to add to the class as it is right now... It'd be pretty simple and obvious. I think we should have in-class access to major savagery/prophecy. I think ZOS missed a real chance with the recent buff to Dark Deal. I would trade the minor force AND minor berserk for major savagery in a heartbeat.

It isn't that I don't appreciate the damage boost. But a smaller damage boost would've been better... If it contributed to healing in the sorc playstyle I described above.

OtarTheMad

Jierdanit wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Classes need to feel unique and different with different strengths and weaknesses to appeal to others play styles. We don’t need every class with all the buffs.

That only works if the classes are actually still similarly strong though.

And atm most buffs are included in the toolkit of lots of classes and the ones without are generally weaker (just look at necro)

Generally I would like for classes to be different from eachother too, but I doubt ZOS is capable of properly balancing that.

True balance will be impossible, you can only hope to get as close as you can.

About buffs and necro, I lean towards that being a misconception really. Necromancer is very weak but I think it’s because the offensive abilities are quite useless outside of PvE.

At least Sorc can slot skills and in modes and they are at least good. I am having 100% more fun on my Magsorc and Magden lately, something I haven’t had on a necromancer in a long time.

StaticWave

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Classes need to feel unique and different with different strengths and weaknesses to appeal to others play styles. We don’t need every class with all the buffs.

So it's fair if we ask for nerfs to the classes with all the buffs? Cause right now some classes are hogging all the buffs in the spot light lol

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

Sorcs have a lot of uniqueness. Some of it is only skin deep-- like the way hurricane looks (which I love.) And some of it is outdated-- like shields. And some of it is unwanted-- like pets.

But what is the PvP playstyle? What does all of this add up to and recommend us to try?

It seems to me like sorcs are supposed to kite (streak,) not burst heal (shields instead,) and heal from staying on offense (crit surge and blood magic passive.)

So it is perhaps fair that they are good for zipping around mashing potatoes but not the best in 1v1s against capable opponents who can withstand damage, heal, and close a gap.

It is however possible that they are a little too weak. That they should at least have a chance to outplay for victory.

Static has a lot of good ideas for this. And if you read them all you may think he wants the class to be OP. But he doesn't. He just wants one or some of what he throws at the wall to stick. He knows sorcs can't have it all.

If I had to pick one buff to add to the class as it is right now... It'd be pretty simple and obvious. I think we should have in-class access to major savagery/prophecy. I think ZOS missed a real chance with the recent buff to Dark Deal. I would trade the minor force AND minor berserk for major savagery in a heartbeat.

It isn't that I don't appreciate the damage boost. But a smaller damage boost would've been better... If it contributed to healing in the sorc playstyle I described above.

Yea I'm pretty sure I've said multiple times that ONE of the suggestions would improve the class if implemented. I don't think I'ver ever said anything about needing to implement everything, and I have even claimed that buffing Sorc too much would cause the class to become OP.

People are quick to bash the ideas but that's how it is every time a class balance discussion is created lol.

ZhuJiuyin

Why is it that every time someone proposes to buff Sorc, some people will hysterically say that it is unfair to Necro?
If you really care about Necro so much, why not open a post yourself?

It is meaningless to pull other classes that need buffs to the bottom together. In this way, strong classes are still strong, and weak classes are still weak.

I think it's more important to completely rework Dark magic than to give Sorc an additional source of Off Balance, too many skills/passives are useless or obsolete.
Rune Cage, Shattering Prison should do instant damage.
And give Major Prophecy or Courage Minor while slotted. And the Rune Cage should also be a reliable spammable source for Sorc. Only in this way can Blood Magic be used effectively.

Unholy Knowledge and Persistence should be merged and give new passive
For example, when Sorc uses Dark magic to cause Disabling Effects, Partially Disabling Effects, increase X% crit for Y seconds.
In this way, since most BOSS have the ability to resist Disabling Effects and Partially Disabling Effects, this new passive will not be too powerful in PVE.
But it can well make up for the crit that Sorc lacks in PVP, and it can also enhance the use efficiency of Critical Surge.

Melzo

You created a topic about giving the sorcerer "of balance", but I didn’t say a word against it. In fact, you are saying that other classes are stronger and you want them to be nerfed and the sorcerer buffed. I see this as a problem because if the NB bow is nerfed, then this class will immediately become crap, since there is nothing in all three branches apart from the bow. Literally, the NB has nothing but a bow shot. Nerf invisibility? The skill for which this class exists. Not everyone plays through sets that give you survivability. Many play the good old cotton killer. Warden's specialty is maximum health. You want to nerf it but that's the main feature of the class. Why go so far?Can we remove the stun from the streak?

Asking for buffs for your class is one thing, but another is when you ruin the game for other players.Dk, nb and Warden are the working classes. I don't see a problem with them. They don't instantly kill you like in the old meta like nb did, and they don't kill you in one hit like dk did. If your class doesn't work why should others suffer?