Give Sorc an in-class source of Off Balance

StaticWave

Other than Arcanist, I’m pretty sure Sorc has yet to receive an in-class source of Off Balance. The remaining 5 classes already have it.

Warden: Dive
DK: Flame Lash
Necro: Ruinous Scythe
NB: Veiled Strike
Templar: Toppling Charge

I’m not sure why Sorc has yet to receive this debuff and needs to either use Dizzying Swing or Elemental Blockade. It’s time the class receives the same standardization those 5 classes got over the years.

FirmamentOfStars

And I thought making classes unique and provide different classes with different buffs was a good idea...

MashmalloMan

No thanks. It's one of the easiest things for a sorc to proc because we're the most likely to use Dizzy Swing or Shock Blockade. I'd rather not lose room in our power budget for more useful debuffs or buffs like major savagery or breach..

JerBearESO

I could see it getting thrown onto one of the dark magic ult morphs honestly, the offense one, I forget name. Silence and off balance

Kaysha

Sorc don´t need off balance at all because they have an at will stun with streak.
So in order to get an off balance skill, ZOS would have to change streak to only stun off balance targets.
Be careful what you wish @StativWave

StaticWave

Kaysha wrote: »

Sorc don´t need off balance at all because they have an at will stun with streak.
So in order to get an off balance skill, ZOS would have to change streak to only stun off balance targets.
Be careful what you wish @StativWave

Every class has a stun but Necro…

StaticWave

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

And I thought making classes unique and provide different classes with different buffs was a good idea...

So is buffing classes?

StaticWave

MashmalloMan wrote: »

No thanks. It's one of the easiest things for a sorc to proc because we're the most likely to use Dizzy Swing or Shock Blockade. I'd rather not lose room in our power budget for more useful debuffs or buffs like major savagery or breach..

No good sorc is using Dizzying Swing or Shock Blockade lol…

ZhuJiuyin

I prefer that Sorc's Dark Magic can be buffed or reworked. Most of Sorc's skills have a long waiting time, which makes Sorc not so flexible.
Crystal Shard, Dark Exchange have a cast time
Daedric Mines have a wait time
Rune Cage has a wait time
Shattering Prison also needs to wait to deal damage (compared to other classes that can deal instant damage and immobilize enemies)
Mages' Fury has a not described wait time (about 1.5 seconds)
Lightning Splash has a not described wait time (or an excessively long casting animation)
Bolt Escape has a not described wait time (or an excessively long casting animation)

MashmalloMan

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

No thanks. It's one of the easiest things for a sorc to proc because we're the most likely to use Dizzy Swing or Shock Blockade. I'd rather not lose room in our power budget for more useful debuffs or buffs like major savagery or breach..

No good sorc is using Dizzying Swing or Shock Blockade lol…

What context are you looking at exactly because you're putting toppling charge in your list which is only useful for PVP, yet everyone know's "no good" Warden would use Dive in pvp.

Either option is suitable if your chasing off balance, they just so happen to also be a little stronger for Sorc's due to their Shock/Physical affinity is what I'm getting at.

For your list. 1/7 is only useful for PVP. 4/7 are "spammables", but 1 no one likes due to the proc condition and travel time and the other is an AOE skill so it does considerably less DPS.

You didn't really make an argument for why off balance is necessary for Sorc besides it being a standard, although I disagree. I'm curious why you think it's important?

Sorc's have one of the best stuns in the game, one of the reasons off balance is important for some of the classes you listed is because it helps give them a decent on demand stun they can proc from a medium weave that they can't proc otherwise.

Everything comes at a cost. What Sorc really needs is efforts made to alleviate bar space issues that have plagued the class since they removed Overload 3rd bar without redesigning the class from the ground up.

1. Pets take 2 spaces and contribute to our theoretical DPS ceiling, which means Sorc appears to be a decent damage dealer... Until you move them to PVP where that damage falls off. Pets are borderline useless outside of group PVE.

2. Most of our damage skills have no overlap for named debuffs/buffs requiring us to slot extra generic abilities or none at all because you guessed it... Pets are taking up too much space.

3. Updated outdated passives that are redundant or undervalued in comparison to other classes.

Minor force and/or berserk being added to Dark Exchange morphs was a great step in the right direction. Higher concussed chance on Volatile Familiar and guaranteed via Charged Atro (minor vuln) are simply to unreliable to be considered, although appreciated. Again, pets though. Buff non pet Sorc.

Quick fix imo. Adding Breach or Savagery to Haunting Curse and Empower to Daedric Prey would be another huge step in adding build diversity, flexibility, a bit of power, but capped power for Sorc's where they need it most. 1 flex spot would do wonders.

Take a look at a Templar for example:

- Sustain tool is also their armor buff, and now a small passive hot.
- Their gap closer also procs major protection and enables stun via off balance.
- Their main damage skill procs minor protection, snares and heals/major brutality.
- DoT with Major Savagery
- Self DoT with Empower (and 5% class DMG buff)
- Multiple damage/buff skills layered with HoTs

Sorc's have Hurricane and Crit Surge. Curse, BA, Crystal, Wrath, Lightning Splash, Tormentor.. nothing named.

MashmalloMan

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I prefer that Sorc's Dark Magic can be buffed or reworked. Most of Sorc's skills have a long waiting time, which makes Sorc not so flexible.
Crystal Shard, Dark Exchange have a cast time
Daedric Mines have a wait time
Rune Cage has a wait time
Shattering Prison also needs to wait to deal damage (compared to other classes that can deal instant damage and immobilize enemies)
Mages' Fury has a not described wait time (about 1.5 seconds)
Lightning Splash has a not described wait time (or an excessively long casting animation)
Bolt Escape has a not described wait time (or an excessively long casting animation)

Completely agree, it's a larger issue I don't expect them to tackle overnight, no one seems to talk about this. This is the entire reason I can't stand to slot Wrath in pvp as a melee build or even as a ranged build, although it's more forgiving. It's so easy to dodge, Whirling Blades is instant and can't be dodged, Executioner is instant and hits like a truck.

The reason people think Wrath is OP is because there is someone standing 28m away out of sight spamming it until they finally steal a kill with it. Beamplars do the same thing to much more success.

To add to your list, Bound Armaments. All projectiles have a minimum travel time baked in, this means even in melee range, the projectiles need to travel first giving a larger window for any projectile to be potentially dodged. To add insult to injury, BA doesn't send the daggers out right away, it does so after a 0.3s delay, and does that 3 more times up to 1.2s after you pressed it.

It's so telegraphed that your opponent got an email that it was coming yesterday.

Only 1 I disagree on is teleport because it's literally instant. Test it in first person and you'll see.

StaticWave

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

No thanks. It's one of the easiest things for a sorc to proc because we're the most likely to use Dizzy Swing or Shock Blockade. I'd rather not lose room in our power budget for more useful debuffs or buffs like major savagery or breach..

No good sorc is using Dizzying Swing or Shock Blockade lol…

What context are you looking at exactly because you're putting toppling charge in your list which is only useful for PVP, yet everyone know's "no good" Warden would use Dive in pvp.

Either option is suitable if your chasing off balance, they just so happen to also be a little stronger for Sorc's due to their Shock/Physical affinity is what I'm getting at.

For your list. 1/7 is only useful for PVP. 4/7 are "spammables", but 1 no one likes due to the proc condition and travel time and the other is an AOE skill so it does considerably less DPS.

You didn't really make an argument for why off balance is necessary for Sorc besides it being a standard, although I disagree. I'm curious why you think it's important?

Sorc's have one of the best stuns in the game, one of the reasons off balance is important for some of the classes you listed is because it helps give them a decent on demand stun they can proc from a medium weave that they can't proc otherwise.

Everything comes at a cost. What Sorc really needs is efforts made to alleviate bar space issues that have plagued the class since they removed Overload 3rd bar without redesigning the class from the ground up.

1. Pets take 2 spaces and contribute to our theoretical DPS ceiling, which means Sorc appears to be a decent damage dealer... Until you move them to PVP where that damage falls off. Pets are borderline useless outside of group PVE.

2. Most of our damage skills have no overlap for named debuffs/buffs requiring us to slot extra generic abilities or none at all because you guessed it... Pets are taking up too much space.

3. Updated outdated passives that are redundant or undervalued in comparison to other classes.

Minor force and/or berserk being added to Dark Exchange morphs was a great step in the right direction. Higher concussed chance on Volatile Familiar and guaranteed via Charged Atro (minor vuln) are simply to unreliable to be considered, although appreciated. Again, pets though. Buff non pet Sorc.

Quick fix imo. Adding Breach or Savagery to Haunting Curse and Empower to Daedric Prey would be another huge step in adding build diversity, flexibility, a bit of power, but capped power for Sorc's where they need it most. 1 flex spot would do wonders.

Take a look at a Templar for example:

- Sustain tool is also their armor buff, and now a small passive hot.
- Their gap closer also procs major protection and enables stun via off balance.
- Their main damage skill procs minor protection, snares and heals/major brutality.
- DoT with Major Savagery
- Self DoT with Empower (and 5% class DMG buff)
- Multiple damage/buff skills layered with HoTs

Sorc's have Hurricane and Crit Surge. Curse, BA, Crystal, Wrath, Lightning Splash, Tormentor.. nothing named.

I’m strictly talking about PvP. Sorc does have a very good stun, but I if I want to use Ball of Lightning I will lose that stun. Other classes, particularly melee ones, get access to a stun via Off Balance.

Yes, I will have to slot Dizzy Swing, but Dizzy is honestly not a good spammable on stamsorc and makes the class squishier because you have to give up 2 slots for Dizzy and an execute. You’re also relying on out-of-class abilities, which won’t give you the bonuses of class passives.

I would prefer Off Balance on a Dark Magic ability. Most classes already have it and also have their own unique unblockable/undodgable stun (except for Necro), so I don’t really see that as an argument against giving Sorc Off Balance.

MashmalloMan

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

No thanks. It's one of the easiest things for a sorc to proc because we're the most likely to use Dizzy Swing or Shock Blockade. I'd rather not lose room in our power budget for more useful debuffs or buffs like major savagery or breach..

No good sorc is using Dizzying Swing or Shock Blockade lol…

What context are you looking at exactly because you're putting toppling charge in your list which is only useful for PVP, yet everyone know's "no good" Warden would use Dive in pvp.

Either option is suitable if your chasing off balance, they just so happen to also be a little stronger for Sorc's due to their Shock/Physical affinity is what I'm getting at.

For your list. 1/7 is only useful for PVP. 4/7 are "spammables", but 1 no one likes due to the proc condition and travel time and the other is an AOE skill so it does considerably less DPS.

You didn't really make an argument for why off balance is necessary for Sorc besides it being a standard, although I disagree. I'm curious why you think it's important?

Sorc's have one of the best stuns in the game, one of the reasons off balance is important for some of the classes you listed is because it helps give them a decent on demand stun they can proc from a medium weave that they can't proc otherwise.

Everything comes at a cost. What Sorc really needs is efforts made to alleviate bar space issues that have plagued the class since they removed Overload 3rd bar without redesigning the class from the ground up.

1. Pets take 2 spaces and contribute to our theoretical DPS ceiling, which means Sorc appears to be a decent damage dealer... Until you move them to PVP where that damage falls off. Pets are borderline useless outside of group PVE.

2. Most of our damage skills have no overlap for named debuffs/buffs requiring us to slot extra generic abilities or none at all because you guessed it... Pets are taking up too much space.

3. Updated outdated passives that are redundant or undervalued in comparison to other classes.

Minor force and/or berserk being added to Dark Exchange morphs was a great step in the right direction. Higher concussed chance on Volatile Familiar and guaranteed via Charged Atro (minor vuln) are simply to unreliable to be considered, although appreciated. Again, pets though. Buff non pet Sorc.

Quick fix imo. Adding Breach or Savagery to Haunting Curse and Empower to Daedric Prey would be another huge step in adding build diversity, flexibility, a bit of power, but capped power for Sorc's where they need it most. 1 flex spot would do wonders.

Take a look at a Templar for example:

- Sustain tool is also their armor buff, and now a small passive hot.
- Their gap closer also procs major protection and enables stun via off balance.
- Their main damage skill procs minor protection, snares and heals/major brutality.
- DoT with Major Savagery
- Self DoT with Empower (and 5% class DMG buff)
- Multiple damage/buff skills layered with HoTs

Sorc's have Hurricane and Crit Surge. Curse, BA, Crystal, Wrath, Lightning Splash, Tormentor.. nothing named.

I’m strictly talking about PvP. Sorc does have a very good stun, but I if I want to use Ball of Lightning I will lose that stun. Other classes, particularly melee ones, get access to a stun via Off Balance.

Yes, I will have to slot Dizzy Swing, but Dizzy is honestly not a good spammable on stamsorc and makes the class squishier because you have to give up 2 slots for Dizzy and an execute. You’re also relying on out-of-class abilities, which won’t give you the bonuses of class passives.

I would prefer Off Balance on a Dark Magic ability. Most classes already have it and also have their own unique unblockable/undodgable stun (except for Necro), so I don’t really see that as an argument against giving Sorc Off Balance.

Templar, NB and Necro for sure rely on it as their stun, every other stun they could use doesn't do the job much, if at all better to be worth the extra slot it would require. Templar has a good option, but I still don't think it's worth 2 skill slots vs 1.

DK doesn't because they have a great stun already, Warden doesn't because Cliff Racer is hot dog water.

If they actually updated the root of your issue, Rune Cage then you wouldn't have the morph problem you describe. It's severely outdated. The whole Sorc kit needs a rework and I just don't think slapping in off-balance to a class with the best and worst stun in the game is the right direction, but agree to disagree I suppose. I'm not a huge fan of Dizzy either.

LittlePinkDot

My sorc uses shrouded daggers and gets off balance when interrupting.

StaticWave

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

No thanks. It's one of the easiest things for a sorc to proc because we're the most likely to use Dizzy Swing or Shock Blockade. I'd rather not lose room in our power budget for more useful debuffs or buffs like major savagery or breach..

No good sorc is using Dizzying Swing or Shock Blockade lol…

What context are you looking at exactly because you're putting toppling charge in your list which is only useful for PVP, yet everyone know's "no good" Warden would use Dive in pvp.

Either option is suitable if your chasing off balance, they just so happen to also be a little stronger for Sorc's due to their Shock/Physical affinity is what I'm getting at.

For your list. 1/7 is only useful for PVP. 4/7 are "spammables", but 1 no one likes due to the proc condition and travel time and the other is an AOE skill so it does considerably less DPS.

You didn't really make an argument for why off balance is necessary for Sorc besides it being a standard, although I disagree. I'm curious why you think it's important?

Sorc's have one of the best stuns in the game, one of the reasons off balance is important for some of the classes you listed is because it helps give them a decent on demand stun they can proc from a medium weave that they can't proc otherwise.

Everything comes at a cost. What Sorc really needs is efforts made to alleviate bar space issues that have plagued the class since they removed Overload 3rd bar without redesigning the class from the ground up.

1. Pets take 2 spaces and contribute to our theoretical DPS ceiling, which means Sorc appears to be a decent damage dealer... Until you move them to PVP where that damage falls off. Pets are borderline useless outside of group PVE.

2. Most of our damage skills have no overlap for named debuffs/buffs requiring us to slot extra generic abilities or none at all because you guessed it... Pets are taking up too much space.

3. Updated outdated passives that are redundant or undervalued in comparison to other classes.

Minor force and/or berserk being added to Dark Exchange morphs was a great step in the right direction. Higher concussed chance on Volatile Familiar and guaranteed via Charged Atro (minor vuln) are simply to unreliable to be considered, although appreciated. Again, pets though. Buff non pet Sorc.

Quick fix imo. Adding Breach or Savagery to Haunting Curse and Empower to Daedric Prey would be another huge step in adding build diversity, flexibility, a bit of power, but capped power for Sorc's where they need it most. 1 flex spot would do wonders.

Take a look at a Templar for example:

- Sustain tool is also their armor buff, and now a small passive hot.
- Their gap closer also procs major protection and enables stun via off balance.
- Their main damage skill procs minor protection, snares and heals/major brutality.
- DoT with Major Savagery
- Self DoT with Empower (and 5% class DMG buff)
- Multiple damage/buff skills layered with HoTs

Sorc's have Hurricane and Crit Surge. Curse, BA, Crystal, Wrath, Lightning Splash, Tormentor.. nothing named.

I’m strictly talking about PvP. Sorc does have a very good stun, but I if I want to use Ball of Lightning I will lose that stun. Other classes, particularly melee ones, get access to a stun via Off Balance.

Yes, I will have to slot Dizzy Swing, but Dizzy is honestly not a good spammable on stamsorc and makes the class squishier because you have to give up 2 slots for Dizzy and an execute. You’re also relying on out-of-class abilities, which won’t give you the bonuses of class passives.

I would prefer Off Balance on a Dark Magic ability. Most classes already have it and also have their own unique unblockable/undodgable stun (except for Necro), so I don’t really see that as an argument against giving Sorc Off Balance.

Templar, NB and Necro for sure rely on it as their stun, every other stun they could use doesn't do the job much, if at all better to be worth the extra slot it would require. Templar has a good option, but I still don't think it's worth 2 skill slots vs 1.

DK doesn't because they have a great stun already, Warden doesn't because Cliff Racer is hot dog water.

If they actually updated the root of your issue, Rune Cage then you wouldn't have the morph problem you describe. It's severely outdated. The whole Sorc kit needs a rework and I just don't think slapping in off-balance to a class with the best and worst stun in the game is the right direction, but agree to disagree I suppose. I'm not a huge fan of Dizzy either.

It's not just about the stun though. Off Balance is also a great source of sustain and burst as it amplifies your heavy attack damage. I use it a lot to restore my stam whenever I need to.

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

No thanks. It's one of the easiest things for a sorc to proc because we're the most likely to use Dizzy Swing or Shock Blockade. I'd rather not lose room in our power budget for more useful debuffs or buffs like major savagery or breach..

No good sorc is using Dizzying Swing or Shock Blockade lol…

What context are you looking at exactly because you're putting toppling charge in your list which is only useful for PVP, yet everyone know's "no good" Warden would use Dive in pvp.

Either option is suitable if your chasing off balance, they just so happen to also be a little stronger for Sorc's due to their Shock/Physical affinity is what I'm getting at.

For your list. 1/7 is only useful for PVP. 4/7 are "spammables", but 1 no one likes due to the proc condition and travel time and the other is an AOE skill so it does considerably less DPS.

You didn't really make an argument for why off balance is necessary for Sorc besides it being a standard, although I disagree. I'm curious why you think it's important?

Sorc's have one of the best stuns in the game, one of the reasons off balance is important for some of the classes you listed is because it helps give them a decent on demand stun they can proc from a medium weave that they can't proc otherwise.

Everything comes at a cost. What Sorc really needs is efforts made to alleviate bar space issues that have plagued the class since they removed Overload 3rd bar without redesigning the class from the ground up.

1. Pets take 2 spaces and contribute to our theoretical DPS ceiling, which means Sorc appears to be a decent damage dealer... Until you move them to PVP where that damage falls off. Pets are borderline useless outside of group PVE.

2. Most of our damage skills have no overlap for named debuffs/buffs requiring us to slot extra generic abilities or none at all because you guessed it... Pets are taking up too much space.

3. Updated outdated passives that are redundant or undervalued in comparison to other classes.

Minor force and/or berserk being added to Dark Exchange morphs was a great step in the right direction. Higher concussed chance on Volatile Familiar and guaranteed via Charged Atro (minor vuln) are simply to unreliable to be considered, although appreciated. Again, pets though. Buff non pet Sorc.

Quick fix imo. Adding Breach or Savagery to Haunting Curse and Empower to Daedric Prey would be another huge step in adding build diversity, flexibility, a bit of power, but capped power for Sorc's where they need it most. 1 flex spot would do wonders.

Take a look at a Templar for example:

- Sustain tool is also their armor buff, and now a small passive hot.
- Their gap closer also procs major protection and enables stun via off balance.
- Their main damage skill procs minor protection, snares and heals/major brutality.
- DoT with Major Savagery
- Self DoT with Empower (and 5% class DMG buff)
- Multiple damage/buff skills layered with HoTs

Sorc's have Hurricane and Crit Surge. Curse, BA, Crystal, Wrath, Lightning Splash, Tormentor.. nothing named.

I’m strictly talking about PvP. Sorc does have a very good stun, but I if I want to use Ball of Lightning I will lose that stun. Other classes, particularly melee ones, get access to a stun via Off Balance.

Yes, I will have to slot Dizzy Swing, but Dizzy is honestly not a good spammable on stamsorc and makes the class squishier because you have to give up 2 slots for Dizzy and an execute. You’re also relying on out-of-class abilities, which won’t give you the bonuses of class passives.

I would prefer Off Balance on a Dark Magic ability. Most classes already have it and also have their own unique unblockable/undodgable stun (except for Necro), so I don’t really see that as an argument against giving Sorc Off Balance.

Templar, NB and Necro for sure rely on it as their stun, every other stun they could use doesn't do the job much, if at all better to be worth the extra slot it would require. Templar has a good option, but I still don't think it's worth 2 skill slots vs 1.

DK doesn't because they have a great stun already, Warden doesn't because Cliff Racer is hot dog water.

If they actually updated the root of your issue, Rune Cage then you wouldn't have the morph problem you describe. It's severely outdated. The whole Sorc kit needs a rework and I just don't think slapping in off-balance to a class with the best and worst stun in the game is the right direction, but agree to disagree I suppose. I'm not a huge fan of Dizzy either.

I haven't seen plar rely on off balance for a stun in a long time. Javelin is just so strong right now, with one of the fastest projectile speeds in the game, unblockable, ignores armor and deals decent damage (not amazing, but still decent). It's main downside is that its not AoE.

I do agree that sorcs entire class kit needs a complete overhaul by now and not another buff to pets again... It is far too long overdue (get on to it already dev team). I won't be holding my breath for it though, the dev team seems to have a specific targeted hatred for the sorcerer class in particular, every nerf sorc receives is always much harsher than anything the other classes get and every big buff/rework that lasts longer than 1 patch cycle is given exclusively to petsorcs...

FirmamentOfStars

StaticWave wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

And I thought making classes unique and provide different classes with different buffs was a good idea...

So is buffing classes?

I would be careful with that. Sorc receives some goodies next patch and I suggest evaluating the class first before asking for more.

Also adding buffs like offbalance or breach to skills a sorc is already using, would probably make those skills maybe a bit too strong. Putting these buffs on non-used skills though would result on widening the issues with bar space.

Honestly I do not see a real reasom for sorcs to receive offbalance in their toolkit. Sorcs have a far easier sustaining tool with dark deal and using it for the stun to change to ball of lightning seems a loss in survivability and killing potential in my opinion.

Similar argument goes for breach I guess. As long as vateshran ice staff and elemental susceptibility are a thing, I doubt major breach on class skills will help much. But I very much hope that we see those nerfed at some point. Sadly major breach is almost a mandatory debuff in PvP, so I hope when sorc gets its own source of it, we see it on templar and necro too.

Turtle_Bot

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

And I thought making classes unique and provide different classes with different buffs was a good idea...

So is buffing classes?

I would be careful with that. Sorc receives some goodies next patch and I suggest evaluating the class first before asking for more.

Also adding buffs like offbalance or breach to skills a sorc is already using, would probably make those skills maybe a bit too strong. Putting these buffs on non-used skills though would result on widening the issues with bar space.

Honestly I do not see a real reasom for sorcs to receive offbalance in their toolkit. Sorcs have a far easier sustaining tool with dark deal and using it for the stun to change to ball of lightning seems a loss in survivability and killing potential in my opinion.

Similar argument goes for breach I guess. As long as vateshran ice staff and elemental susceptibility are a thing, I doubt major breach on class skills will help much. But I very much hope that we see those nerfed at some point. Sadly major breach is almost a mandatory debuff in PvP, so I hope when sorc gets its own source of it, we see it on templar and necro too.

The only goodie sorc is getting, NB is getting that same thing and more despite being in a better spot than sorc (for PvP). I wouldn't be too concerned with being careful giving buffs to sorc unless the devs continue with their attitude that anything sorc gets, NB should also get that and more as well.

What's more important really for sorc, is fixing issues with healing and ensuring that the class kit is functional, synergistic and up to date.

StaticWave

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

And I thought making classes unique and provide different classes with different buffs was a good idea...

So is buffing classes?

I would be careful with that. Sorc receives some goodies next patch and I suggest evaluating the class first before asking for more.

Also adding buffs like offbalance or breach to skills a sorc is already using, would probably make those skills maybe a bit too strong. Putting these buffs on non-used skills though would result on widening the issues with bar space.

Honestly I do not see a real reasom for sorcs to receive offbalance in their toolkit. Sorcs have a far easier sustaining tool with dark deal and using it for the stun to change to ball of lightning seems a loss in survivability and killing potential in my opinion.

Similar argument goes for breach I guess. As long as vateshran ice staff and elemental susceptibility are a thing, I doubt major breach on class skills will help much. But I very much hope that we see those nerfed at some point. Sadly major breach is almost a mandatory debuff in PvP, so I hope when sorc gets its own source of it, we see it on templar and necro too.

Actually no, I wouldn’t be careful. I’m in the highest dmg build possible with decent survivability and I’m still at a disadvantage vs other classes.

I was against giving Breach on existing skills, but seeing NB get Off Balance, Minor Expedition, & Major Berserk on a spammable, or Warden getting Major Minor Berserk on an AoE delayed burst makes me wonder why Sorc can’t have those?

As for the goodies, you mean bound armament buff? Not really. I’m already using Bound Arms and all that buff does is add some quality of life and a little more healing on my Vigor. Most of my heals come from Blood Magic and Surge, which don’t scale off offensive stats.

An actual buff to sorc is addressing the core issues of the class that many people have raised for months. I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

MashmalloMan

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

And I thought making classes unique and provide different classes with different buffs was a good idea...

So is buffing classes?

I would be careful with that. Sorc receives some goodies next patch and I suggest evaluating the class first before asking for more.

Also adding buffs like offbalance or breach to skills a sorc is already using, would probably make those skills maybe a bit too strong. Putting these buffs on non-used skills though would result on widening the issues with bar space.

Honestly I do not see a real reasom for sorcs to receive offbalance in their toolkit. Sorcs have a far easier sustaining tool with dark deal and using it for the stun to change to ball of lightning seems a loss in survivability and killing potential in my opinion.

Similar argument goes for breach I guess. As long as vateshran ice staff and elemental susceptibility are a thing, I doubt major breach on class skills will help much. But I very much hope that we see those nerfed at some point. Sadly major breach is almost a mandatory debuff in PvP, so I hope when sorc gets its own source of it, we see it on templar and necro too.

That's the entire point of my suggestions. Add flexiblity via possible redundancies like breach of savagery. Sorcs are without a doubt the hardest pressed class for bar space because of the way pets and our damage skills are designed. Every class has 2 for 1 abilities that function as a basic building block, but also a named buff/debuff.

See my above example for Templars, but quick examples like DK FOO for Savagery and Breath for Breach, Warden Scorch for Double Breach + dot for minor vuln + Sustain Tool for Brutality/purge + Armor skill for minor protection, NB Veiled Strike for Resolve+Breach or Minor Expedition/Major Expedition. Not everyone wants or can fit a vat destro, I don't see why a popular item set + skill combo means Sorc can't have nice things. I may not agree with adding off-balance, but something simple could be done along those lines.

LittlePinkDot

Perhaps ZoS is adjusting each class 1 at a time throughout different updates.
Starting with NB obviously.

StaticWave

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Perhaps ZoS is adjusting each class 1 at a time throughout different updates.
Starting with NB obviously.

Nah I think ZOS just legit doesn’t care about Sorc. For the past 5 years I have seen several classes receive 3-4 balance changes per update cycle, but Sorc barely gets 1-2, and sometimes none.

I remember asking for Bound Armaments to build 2 stacks with heavy attacks like Merciless Resolve 3 years ago. 3 years. They just implemented that this PTS cycle. I mean what lol? One simple QoL change took them 3 years to implement, and people call that a Sorc buff lol?

birdik

Do sorcs ever need?

FirmamentOfStars

Hm why are you jumping at me like meat gobblers, if I say that offbalance and breach are probably not the best buffs to ask for? As said, I think the class could use other tweaks, though. Adding major breach to any sorc skill used on live, will probably make the skill overloaded. Putting it on a non-used skill will make it compete with ele sus. And I guess we all know how good ele sus is by its own already.

I honestly do not care about offbalance though, since I do not see it benefitting sorc much as described in the previous post.

But it is fun to see people going crazy, when somebody says „be careful buffing/nerfing stuff“, when we all agree on the chisel being the better tool than the hammer for balance changes.

Kaysha

birdik wrote: »

Do sorcs ever need?

It´s not about needing anything. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

ZhuJiuyin

Whenever someone proposes to buff Sorce, there will always be some people who oppose it, but the actual data of Sorce is indeed not as powerful as those opponents imagined.

Please allow me to cut in from the perspective of PVE, because PVE has a relatively complete record (thanks to esologs)
As of 2023/7/30 (GMT+8), according to the log, the statistics of clearing VSE HM for each profession are

DK 62
Arcanist 53
Necromancer 36
Templar 27
Warden 19 (mostly healers)
Sorce 18 (only one magic Sorce)
Nightblade 0

Obviously, Warden, Sorce, and Nightblade are not doing well as the bottom 3 Classes of the food chain and need more buffing. (at least in PVE)

I don't agree with adding off-balance, but Sorce does need more attention, need to face up to their low DPS in PVE, poor survival and control ability in PVP. And the confusing and unbearable waiting time in PVE and PVP (casting time, waiting time for skill effects, too long skill travel time)

FrancisCrawford

Off-balance could be helpful in PvE to heavy attack sorcerers too. That said, Wall of Elements does a decent job of providing it in that context, with most of what's wrong with that scheme just being the general lack of bar space for builds that benefit from the pet possibilities.

StaticWave

Kaysha wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

Do sorcs ever need?

It´s not about needing anything. [snip]

Sorc does need buffs, and the prime offenders in PvP do need a nerf. I’m just one of the more vocal people on the forums willing to talk about the issue.

Are you saying DK, NB, and Warden are not over performing in PvP, and Sorc doesn’t need a buff?

If you say yes to my question, then you should move on because you clearly have no idea how the current PvP state is

[edited to remove quote]

Turtle_Bot

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Hm why are you jumping at me like meat gobblers, if I say that offbalance and breach are probably not the best buffs to ask for? As said, I think the class could use other tweaks, though. Adding major breach to any sorc skill used on live, will probably make the skill overloaded. Putting it on a non-used skill will make it compete with ele sus. And I guess we all know how good ele sus is by its own already.

I honestly do not care about offbalance though, since I do not see it benefitting sorc much as described in the previous post.

But it is fun to see people going crazy, when somebody says „be careful buffing/nerfing stuff“, when we all agree on the chisel being the better tool than the hammer for balance changes.

It wasn't so much jumping at you, but pointing out just how overloaded so many skills and classes are already such that it is ridiculous to even suggest "requiring care" when discussing giving sorcs easy access to the basic buff/debuff options of prophecy/savagery/breach.

Now if we were to talk about giving sorc easy access to some rare/unique buffs such as the now being change from unnamed 10% damage buff to major berserk that concealed currently has, or major brittle, major vulnerability, major courage, major force, etc, then for sure, we would need to be careful with things like that, but not for what are supposed to be standard buff/debuffs that all classes should have easy access to.

MashmalloMan

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Perhaps ZoS is adjusting each class 1 at a time throughout different updates.
Starting with NB obviously.

Nah I think ZOS just legit doesn’t care about Sorc. For the past 5 years I have seen several classes receive 3-4 balance changes per update cycle, but Sorc barely gets 1-2, and sometimes none.

I remember asking for Bound Armaments to build 2 stacks with heavy attacks like Merciless Resolve 3 years ago. 3 years. They just implemented that this PTS cycle. I mean what lol? One simple QoL change took them 3 years to implement, and people call that a Sorc buff lol?

Same buddy, probably the same threads honestly. Die hard Stam Sorc mains lol.

Also asked them to remove the cast condition for 1-3 daggers because there is legitamitely no reason to cast them that early and just wastes the proc if it's accidently pressed. This is less of a problem with no buff timer because I was hoping it would just rebuff the timer instead, but still. Something to consider.

Mabye in another 3 years they will remove the 0.3s delay between each dagger and send them all at the same time. So silly that a skill that hits much less than NB Bow proc with the same telegraph counter condition, has an additional 1.2s window added to the already long projectile minimum travel time to make it even easier to dodge.

Lastly, it should give something universal like NBs Bow proc so Mag Sorc can be thrown a bone. I feel terrible for them, they have fallen so far from grace. We already lost the light/heavy attack damage of it, please change the stam for crit dmg-healing or crit chance.

All that being said, I'm pretty pumped for U39 changes and I'll happily take what I can get without poking the bear. Thanks ZOS you're the best lol..

JerBearESO

MashmalloMan wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Perhaps ZoS is adjusting each class 1 at a time throughout different updates.
Starting with NB obviously.

Nah I think ZOS just legit doesn’t care about Sorc. For the past 5 years I have seen several classes receive 3-4 balance changes per update cycle, but Sorc barely gets 1-2, and sometimes none.

I remember asking for Bound Armaments to build 2 stacks with heavy attacks like Merciless Resolve 3 years ago. 3 years. They just implemented that this PTS cycle. I mean what lol? One simple QoL change took them 3 years to implement, and people call that a Sorc buff lol?

Same buddy, probably the same threads honestly. Die hard Stam Sorc mains lol.

Also asked them to remove the cast condition for 1-3 daggers because there is legitamitely no reason to cast them that early and just wastes the proc if it's accidently pressed. This is less of a problem with no buff timer because I was hoping it would just rebuff the timer instead, but still. Something to consider.

Mabye in another 3 years they will remove the 0.3s delay between each dagger and send them all at the same time. So silly that a skill that hits much less than NB Bow proc with the same telegraph counter condition, has an additional 1.2s window added to the already long projectile minimum travel time to make it even easier to dodge.

Lastly, it should give something universal like NBs Bow proc so Mag Sorc can be thrown a bone. I feel terrible for them, they have fallen so far from grace. We already lost the light/heavy attack damage of it, please change the stam for crit dmg-healing or crit chance.

All that being said, I'm pretty pumped for U39 changes and I'll happily take what I can get without poking the bear. Thanks ZOS you're the best lol..

I'm actually thinking of using those bound daggers as a spamable on a HA build, and using it often with the 2 daggers from the heavy, so I like that it can be used before full stacks