Beam+javelin is just broken. One of them should be nerfed.

Galeriano

As it is right now most termplars just moved into brainlesly spamming these two because why not? It's one of the most broken combos in the game. You can stay at distance and just spam some range ability + these two and You will be safely scoring kills.

I think it's a time to make beam a 12-15 meters long at best. Such a strong ability having 36 meters range is just completly broken in a PvP enviroment. Shorter range would force templars to use it more strategically rather than just spamming it on everyone who reached like 2/3rd of health. Optionally javelin could just loose the knockback otr have range reduced to 7 meters.

And yes I know templars are not at the top of the foodchain but this doesn't change a fact how broken that combo is in reality and how easily people can crutch on it. it's pretty ridicolous to see templars getting 15+ kills in BG by spaming reflecting light from the distance and than just javelin+beam everyone.

xiphactinus

NO!

Galeriano

xiphactinus wrote: »

NO!

Yes.

fizl101

And the impact on pve players? Templars have had alot of nerfs in the last year they dont need more

Galeriano

fizl101 wrote: »

And the impact on pve players? Templars have had alot of nerfs in the last year they dont need more

Either change would have close to zero impact on PvE.

OBJnoob

Hmm. The beam really eats me alive, as I've been playing a character with Gaze of Sithis lately. BUT. I'm okay with being hard countered this way. For everybody else I think, you know, you can block it-- you can LOS it-- you can stun them-- hell you can even bash interrupt it can't you? I think it's strong but they should probably be allowed to keep it.

It is a little lame that people will just stand in the back of groups and use it like a spammable but, whatcha gonna do? People be people. Not really different from spamming endless fury.

I think maybe the problem is with the interaction between the two rather than with either skill individually. And I'd recommend a tweak to this interaction rather than an actual nerf.

Let's throw Ice Comet into the mix for this hypothetical. A templar casts ice comet on you from like 20m away. You know very well you're about to get javelined so you need PERFECT timing to roll the spear and block the comet. And if their timing was close to perfect then you might be screwed regardless. And then of course comes the beam. There's really no counter to this.

But I think the whole thing could be fixed by making the javelin unblockable only inside of 10m. Outside of 10m you can block it. I think that'd limit the abuse without significantly worsening the combo.

The real problem isn't how hard anything hits or how often you can do it. It's just when you combine something that can't be dodged with something else that can't be blocked. And this is true with or without Comet, but I thought it deserved mentioning.

Amerises

OBJnoob wrote: »

Hmm. The beam really eats me alive, as I've been playing a character with Gaze of Sithis lately. BUT. I'm okay with being hard countered this way. For everybody else I think, you know, you can block it-- you can LOS it-- you can stun them-- hell you can even bash interrupt it can't you? I think it's strong but they should probably be allowed to keep it.

It is a little lame that people will just stand in the back of groups and use it like a spammable but, whatcha gonna do? People be people. Not really different from spamming endless fury.

I think maybe the problem is with the interaction between the two rather than with either skill individually. And I'd recommend a tweak to this interaction rather than an actual nerf.

Let's throw Ice Comet into the mix for this hypothetical. A templar casts ice comet on you from like 20m away. You know very well you're about to get javelined so you need PERFECT timing to roll the spear and block the comet. And if their timing was close to perfect then you might be screwed regardless. And then of course comes the beam. There's really no counter to this.

But I think the whole thing could be fixed by making the javelin unblockable only inside of 10m. Outside of 10m you can block it. I think that'd limit the abuse without significantly worsening the combo.

The real problem isn't how hard anything hits or how often you can do it. It's just when you combine something that can't be dodged with something else that can't be blocked. And this is true with or without Comet, but I thought it deserved mentioning.

Yeah, take away comet + javelin + beam and then I’ll go 0-10 every BG and not kill anything in Cyro either 😂😂

How about this, bring back original jabs and burning light and PotL? Oh people complained about that too?

Of all of the combos in PvP in this game, a Templar is the one OP upset about? lol

Listen, elite players are going to be elite players. As this person explained, it’s all counterable, and when I play my Templar, believe me, it’s not a guaranteed kill as a lot of experienced players know this is all a Templar can do and counter it.

If anything, templars could use a buff in other places for some variety. OP said it themselves, it’s the only thing they die from a Templar because it’s all they have …

OBJnoob

@Amerises
What person explained how it's all counterable? Me? I think you remembered the parts of my post that you liked but quickly forgot the half you didn't like. I was trying to be objective so I did kinda talk about both perspectives-- but ultimately I arrived at a small tweak to the combo and THAT is what I would find fair.

But I do agree with you that templars, as a whole, don't need nerfing. I will say the whole "give me my jabs back" narrative is stale though. Get over it already. Templars needing help is a vastly exaggerated notion. They're actually quite strong. No not in need of nerfs and no not as strong as some other things-- but quite alright. They have enough damage to be good in duels and they have more than enough tankyness to fight outnumbered.

It isn't out of the question to suggest a small change to a 3 skill combo that lands in 2 GCDs, contains 1 unblockable stun, 1 undodgeable stun, and forces you to blockheal the ranged execute because you can't dodge it but meanwhile you're standing in a potent AoE.

I think my suggestion is more than fair to Templars.

And since you say you'd go 0-10 without this combo, I'm curious, what do you normally come in at with the combo?

SandandStars

It’s a difficult situation to remedy because Templar was basically gimped into a Beamplar class. The only alternative is to stay in your circle spamming Living Dark and Masters DW.

I really wish they’d just adjusted Jabs & POL properly and left Templar’s former playing style alone, as Beamplar is as boring and limited as OBJ mentioned Fury Spamming Sorcs.

My templar gets no play, as spamming RO/Jav is just mind numbingly boring.

I honestly think the solution is to revert Temp to its jabs/pol style, toned down slightly from it’s former height, and bring down RO with it.

But this will never happen.

I think we all just have to accept that anytime our health drops below 50%, someone’s gonna be spamming RO from the back of the pack/zerg.

It sometimes feels like these parasitic playing styles are designed into the game.

OBJnoob

I thought that was insightful but I do disagree with some things.

The word parasitic for instance. Whether it's RO, mages wrath, lethal arrow, bombard, whatever it is you might be being heckled at range by while trying to kite outnumbered-- I mean it all seems lame in certain circumstances but that doesn't mean it is. Some of it more than others, admittedly.

Also I will double down on one thing I said earlier: templars really aren't that bad right now. I would assume the playstyle is more fun and less repetitive and boring in like a 1v1 setting. But if you're in like a competative DM and it's just wisest to RO spam for periods of time... I mean I get it, that's lame. On the other hand must be nice to just be securing kills like that. Seems weird to complain about lol. It's not like it doesn't work in other scenarios.

JerBearESO

Templar needs power shifted out of beam and into jabs perhaps. Beam is broken ATM the beamplars decide the winning team in most BGs....

geonsocal

roll dodging is your friend...

javelin is simply for trolling - it works well, one of my favorite skills ever...I'm sad I can't use it anymore to knock people through the grating on second floor outposts and keeps

it was funny, for years people didn't figure that that was a thing that could happen to them - it was great...

very helpful in dealing with 2 Handed weapon spammers and wardens trying to hit you with their bugs...

a get off me skill...

the jesus beam is easy to break line of sight...really easy...

JerBearESO

Just want to point out, Jesse beam ramps up to 600% damage while other executes ramp up to 200%. So yeah it's pretty over the top on execute damage....

mmtaniac

Templar mains never asked for buff to beam. But they buff beam and nerf other offensive abilities so. Beam is mandatory. We need beam to function right now, if they could nerf it a little and buff other offensive abilities than i will be happy. Personally i would like more power in Burning Light, Jabs, POTL(make it unpurgable or just explode when purge) .

Zama666

We should nerf everything that causes damage or healing or speed or fun or <insert your own>

So many things kill me in Cyrodiil. I keep playing, try to get better, and slowly, it is working.

There are also some incredible player who have dedicated time and effort into becoming amazing.
Getting my ass kicked by them, learning experience!

Don't change a thing. ZOS keeps changing things up, and I am ok with it.

Z

maxjapank

JerBearESO wrote: »

Templar needs power shifted out of beam and into jabs perhaps. Beam is broken ATM the beamplars decide the winning team in most BGs....

Absolutely not. Before Radiants base dmg was buffed, you rarely saw a Templar use it in pvp because of how poor it was. Enemy players would just laugh off its dmg. Now when it’s been viable again, players are complaining because it’s something they can’t ignore. I’m with you on buffing jabs more. But let’s not nerf something that is performing exactly how it’s supposed to be performing.

OBJnoob

Jabs jabs jabs. You'd swear templar was the first and only thing to ever get nerfed from listening to it all.

Jabs deserved to get nerfed and nobody that finds beaming boring should seriously want to return to spamming jabs instead.

Jabs was one-button build braindead before Oakensoul ever existed.

maxjapank

OBJnoob wrote: »

Jabs jabs jabs. You'd swear templar was the first and only thing to ever get nerfed from listening to it all.

Jabs deserved to get nerfed and nobody that finds beaming boring should seriously want to return to spamming jabs instead.

Jabs was one-button build braindead before Oakensoul ever existed.

Silly comment. Every one that has claimed Templars only spam jabs, have never played them seriously. If anything, Templars have always had a hard time fitting everything on their bars because of the need for so many abilities.

Reverb

Templars overrely on these 2 skills because every other skill in their
Toolkit has been taken away or nerfed to uselessness. Bring back old jabs/sweeps, blinding flashes, and the cc on shards and you’d see a huge variety in Templar builds, and beam would only be used for an execute.

taugrim

maxjapank wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Jabs jabs jabs. You'd swear templar was the first and only thing to ever get nerfed from listening to it all.

Jabs deserved to get nerfed and nobody that finds beaming boring should seriously want to return to spamming jabs instead.

Jabs was one-button build braindead before Oakensoul ever existed.

Silly comment. Every one that has claimed Templars only spam jabs, have never played them seriously. If anything, Templars have always had a hard time fitting everything on their bars because of the need for so many abilities.

I've never had an issue fitting skills onto the bar. You only need 5 slots for offensive skills: Power of the Light, Toppling Charge, Jabs/Sweeps, Radiant Oppression/Glory, Crescent Sweep.

That leaves 6 non-ult skills and 1 ultimate. Plenty to work with.

maxjapank

taugrim wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Jabs jabs jabs. You'd swear templar was the first and only thing to ever get nerfed from listening to it all.

Jabs deserved to get nerfed and nobody that finds beaming boring should seriously want to return to spamming jabs instead.

Jabs was one-button build braindead before Oakensoul ever existed.

Silly comment. Every one that has claimed Templars only spam jabs, have never played them seriously. If anything, Templars have always had a hard time fitting everything on their bars because of the need for so many abilities.

I've never had an issue fitting skills onto the bar. You only need 5 slots for offensive skills: Power of the Light, Toppling Charge, Jabs/Sweeps, Radiant Oppression/Glory, Crescent Sweep.

That leaves 6 non-ult skills and 1 ultimate. Plenty to work with.

And...then you have to fill in the backbar, which you will need Extended Ritual, RAT or Mist, Channeled Focus, HoD or Vigor (maybe both) and Living Dark. They are not offensive, but they are necessary for Templars.

There is not a lot of room to pick and choose. You're either a Rangeplar or a Meleeplar.

Edit: I should also add that my reply was to someone claiming that all Templars do was spam jabs. And by nature, every class has a spammable or uses a weapon spammable. But your answer helps show that Templars must rely on more than just jabs to do dmg.

WuffyCerulei

Jesus beam is back?! Man, it’s nothing to what it used to be. It had the same range, but also last much longer than the short channel it has now. In terms of nerfs, Beam shouldn’t be touched because that would absolute hurt pve. Javelin is the skill that would be touched as it’s mainly a pvp skill.

gariondavey

Beam was hardly buffed the last time they buffed it. An extremely inconsequential amount.
It was just done at a time when they absolutely gutted jabs and potl. Idk why so many people fail to notice this.

WrathOfInnos

Galeriano wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

And the impact on pve players? Templars have had alot of nerfs in the last year they dont need more

Either change would have close to zero impact on PvE.

Cutting the range of beam in half would not affect PVE? That is a bold claim.

Imagine kiting in vAS with a beam that is only 2m longer than Engulfing Flames. Or trying to kill orbs in vCR with a beam shorter than Cephaliarc's Flail. In vSE every wamasu charge would break the beam, and forget about turning to focus adds or things like totems in vKA.

Please try considering the impact on other areas of the game before requesting nerfs to a mediocre PvP combo.

Galeriano

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

And the impact on pve players? Templars have had alot of nerfs in the last year they dont need more

Either change would have close to zero impact on PvE.

Cutting the range of beam in half would not affect PVE? That is a bold claim.

Imagine kiting in vAS with a beam that is only 2m longer than Engulfing Flames. Or trying to kill orbs in vCR with a beam shorter than Cephaliarc's Flail. In vSE every wamasu charge would break the beam, and forget about turning to focus adds or things like totems in vKA.

Please try considering the impact on other areas of the game before requesting nerfs to a mediocre PvP combo.

Well that is actually close to zero impact if out of hundreds encounters in ESO only few that matters would actually be affected. And even those mentioned are not as bad as one would think. In vAS it would actually be a nice change since beam is carrying templar there like crazy by being responsible for 20-30% of overal DPS and morphed into radiant glory is also healing like crazy. It would require playing more strategically and positioning better to take the adventage of such powerfull ability that beam undoubtably is. In vCR I also don't see any issue. If meele setups are able to clear orbs on time why wouldn't templars be able to even after range nerf to a beam? Same goes for pretty much almost every other encounter that someone can have in mind. It's not like You are spending significant amount of time in most fights damaging enemies from far away. 12-15 meters is sufficient in overwhelming majority of important encounters. DK in previous patch proved that beyond any doubt.

KiltMaster

seriously? Nerf templars again? [snip]

[edited for trolling]

WrathOfInnos

Galeriano wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

And the impact on pve players? Templars have had alot of nerfs in the last year they dont need more

Either change would have close to zero impact on PvE.

Cutting the range of beam in half would not affect PVE? That is a bold claim.

Imagine kiting in vAS with a beam that is only 2m longer than Engulfing Flames. Or trying to kill orbs in vCR with a beam shorter than Cephaliarc's Flail. In vSE every wamasu charge would break the beam, and forget about turning to focus adds or things like totems in vKA.

Please try considering the impact on other areas of the game before requesting nerfs to a mediocre PvP combo.

Well that is actually close to zero impact if out of hundreds encounters in ESO only few that matters would actually be affected. And even those mentioned are not as bad as one would think. In vAS it would actually be a nice change since beam is carrying templar there like crazy by being responsible for 20-30% of overal DPS and morphed into radiant glory is also healing like crazy. It would require playing more strategically and positioning better to take the adventage of such powerfull ability that beam undoubtably is. In vCR I also don't see any issue. If meele setups are able to clear orbs on time why wouldn't templars be able to even after range nerf to a beam? Same goes for pretty much almost every other encounter that someone can have in mind. It's not like You are spending significant amount of time in most fights damaging enemies from far away. 12-15 meters is sufficient in overwhelming majority of important encounters. DK in previous patch proved that beyond any doubt.

That was not meant to be a complete list. There are certainly hundreds of examples. Templar is not great at dealing sustained damage from a distance, missing out on Barrage, Ritual of Retribution, Deadly Cloak and Barbed Trap. They rely on Shards and Beam to hit distant enemies, especially those small adds that don't have enough health to justify casting Vamp Bane or Backlash. It would be extremely limiting if beam was reduced to even 22m (annoyingly short range of DK chains for example), much less 12-15.

If the range in PvP is such a concern then just reduce it to the same 28m as in PvE. The range seems long in PvP because it is extended in PvP.

Javelin is low impact for PvE. However it already has a range of 22m, so nobody is spamming it from 36m with Reflecting Light and beam.

Redguards_Revenge

Galeriano wrote: »

As it is right now most termplars just moved into brainlesly spamming these two because why not? It's one of the most broken combos in the game. You can stay at distance and just spam some range ability + these two and You will be safely scoring kills.

I think it's a time to make beam a 12-15 meters long at best. Such a strong ability having 36 meters range is just completly broken in a PvP enviroment. Shorter range would force templars to use it more strategically rather than just spamming it on everyone who reached like 2/3rd of health. Optionally javelin could just loose the knockback otr have range reduced to 7 meters.

And yes I know templars are not at the top of the foodchain but this doesn't change a fact how broken that combo is in reality and how easily people can crutch on it. it's pretty ridicolous to see templars getting 15+ kills in BG by spaming reflecting light from the distance and than just javelin+beam everyone.

Bro
1. Become vamp (30% reduction in damage as your health goes down)
2. buy mythics
3. play NB or DK
4. Just because 1 guy is using a broken build doesn't mean it only works on templar. Maybe all those people were just noobs and he was able to 1 up them. I remember being placed into a lower tier bgs match and wiping everyone with DK ....Upon further investigation these were not the usual people in BGs.
5. Stop using glass builds.
6. DKs have no problem with the combo. NBs have no problem with the combo. Sorcs have no problem with the combo. There is counterplay. ROLL! Break FREE! BASH. Stop running and start fighting.


Now why does DK have corrosive armor when that should be a templar skill that synergizes well with templar close range battle.

You know what, I actually agree with you. Ray should be transformed into an AOE Execute blast that is 20 meters instant cast all damage at once. Does the most damage to all who has the weakest health in the vicinity.

I hate having to line up Templar Execute, half the time it goes to some random person who the crosshairs isn't even on. Same thing with javelin. It's simply amazing that guy has the skill to wait until your CC immunity is over and apply the CC at the right time watching you burn through your resources and finally seeing the opening to drop you.

This is what is the difference between the top tier pvp players.

TheNuminous1

I'm so serious right now. If you take away my ONLY PVP CHARACTER and the ONLY FUN THING ABOUT TEMPLARS RIGHT NOW I'm gunna be so mad. Like just eat the k/d ratio and let this class have ONE THING PLEASE OMG

Redguards_Revenge

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

I'm so serious right now. If you take away my ONLY PVP CHARACTER and the ONLY FUN THING ABOUT TEMPLARS RIGHT NOW I'm gunna be so mad. Like just eat the k/d ratio and let this class have ONE THING PLEASE OMG

Funny thing is I play templar but don't use jabs, javelin or the execute. That being said, they've already nerfed templar. The jabs are just atrocious.

WuffyCerulei

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

I'm so serious right now. If you take away my ONLY PVP CHARACTER and the ONLY FUN THING ABOUT TEMPLARS RIGHT NOW I'm gunna be so mad. Like just eat the k/d ratio and let this class have ONE THING PLEASE OMG

People really be saying