Current DPS Warden Class Pain Points (Pre Update 39 PTS)

BasP

I know this suggestion probably isn't great, but I was thinking about DDs being unable to proc the Maturation and Nature's Gift passives.

What if the Lotus Blossom skill was changed into something like Frozen Blossom (or Corrupted Blossom) and your Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks dealt X Frost (or Bleed) damage for the duration as well? Having three effects on that skill wouldn't really make it overpowered in my opinion, though the duration would probably have to be reduced to 20 seconds again to make up for it I suppose.

I just realized it'd still be unreliable because you're probably not healing someone every second, but considering I've typed the rest of the post already I'll just leave it as is.

MindOfTheSwarm

I think the solution for Warden is to open up build options and readdress certain skills and theme goals.

1. Add more non-class Frost skills to the game in the form of guild or world skills.

2. Change wings into an actual beast damage skill. It could keep the movement speed and its morph bonuses. Perhaps an eagle pet that periodically attacks a target every 2 or 3 seconds and grants you the movement speed on reactivating it. A Magic Morph that provides you with Minor Evasion and a Bleed Morph that provides Minor Berserk passively. It would give Warden’s an extra pet that taps into that beast theme.

3. Change one of the healing spell morphs into a Bleed or Poison morph. The defile morph of flowers is a good candidate to become an AoE Bleed or Poison DoT. It could still heal for a smaller amount which would help healing roles feel less boring and tap into Stamina healing a bit more. It could even heal all allies in the area based on its damage dealt if it were Bleed which would synergies so well with Bleed and Healing Warden builds. Just add a few thorny branches to the skill animation and you’re good. It could even do split Poison and Bleed if you wanted to experiment.

4. Do something with Frozen Device/Retreat. I would suggest rolling both of these morphs into one and then doing something to benefit Frost Damage specs. It could work if it simply snared enemies in the area while applying Chilled every second. This would benefit both Tanks and Frost damage specs.

5. Do something with Northern Storm. Ice Comet and Icy Rage are way better options right now. Perhaps reducing its cost down so that it does not directly compete with its stronger counterparts. I like the theme of the skill, the idea that Warden’s channel Icy storms around them, but there are very few skills that tap into this. This could be solved by having it boost the damage of your other Frost AoE effects by X% while it is active. This would let it synergies with Winter’s Revenge, Arctic Blast, Frost Wall, Impulse and even Ice Heart quite nicely. Of course the percentage would have to be enough to compete with the values of Ice Comet and Icy Rage.

Such changes would allow a Warden to spec into either Frost Damage or Beast Mode in a more defined way. They would also buff their damage closer to other classes.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

I think the solution for Warden is to open up build options and readdress certain skills and theme goals.

1. Add more non-class Frost skills to the game in the form of guild or world skills.

2. Change wings into an actual beast damage skill. It could keep the movement speed and its morph bonuses. Perhaps an eagle pet that periodically attacks a target every 2 or 3 seconds and grants you the movement speed on reactivating it. A Magic Morph that provides you with Minor Evasion and a Bleed Morph that provides Minor Berserk passively. It would give Warden’s an extra pet that taps into that beast theme.

3. Change one of the healing spell morphs into a Bleed or Poison morph. The defile morph of flowers is a good candidate to become an AoE Bleed or Poison DoT. It could still heal for a smaller amount which would help healing roles feel less boring and tap into Stamina healing a bit more. It could even heal all allies in the area based on its damage dealt if it were Bleed which would synergies so well with Bleed and Healing Warden builds. Just add a few thorny branches to the skill animation and you’re good. It could even do split Poison and Bleed if you wanted to experiment.

4. Do something with Frozen Device/Retreat. I would suggest rolling both of these morphs into one and then doing something to benefit Frost Damage specs. It could work if it simply snared enemies in the area while applying Chilled every second. This would benefit both Tanks and Frost damage specs.

5. Do something with Northern Storm. Ice Comet and Icy Rage are way better options right now. Perhaps reducing its cost down so that it does not directly compete with its stronger counterparts. I like the theme of the skill, the idea that Warden’s channel Icy storms around them, but there are very few skills that tap into this. This could be solved by having it boost the damage of your other Frost AoE effects by X% while it is active. This would let it synergies with Winter’s Revenge, Arctic Blast, Frost Wall, Impulse and even Ice Heart quite nicely. Of course the percentage would have to be enough to compete with the values of Ice Comet and Icy Rage.

Such changes would allow a Warden to spec into either Frost Damage or Beast Mode in a more defined way. They would also buff their damage closer to other classes.

I agree for the most part, but regarding a green balance dot, bleeds are generally more on theme than poison as only sub assault is the only part of our kit that does poison. We only lack some sort of specific passive boost for bleed damage that we could get back on a reverted piercing cold.

ramdrop

Patch notes tomorrow. Maybe we’ll be blessed.

merpins

ramdrop wrote: »

Patch notes tomorrow. Maybe we’ll be blessed.

[snip] We warden mains don't get buffs, only indifference.

as I mentioned on page 1, I'm a stam warden main. I think Warden needs better sustain and Stam Warden a bit more damage. The way to do this would be to:
1. make it so you only need to slot Bird of Prey on one ability bar to get its buffs on both,
2. you can make the stam morph of Fletcher Flies actually worth slotting over the mag version by either a. removing the one-at-a-time requirement that was added a while back or b. boosting the first target's DOT by 25-40%, and even THAT probably wouldn't make it stronger than just slotting the mag version due to that 50% damage increase on second cast and sustain boost that using mag gives.
3. buff Cutting Dive's bleed DOT by 20-50%.
4. I said on page 1 that the mag morph of Scorch is just better in every way. If they made the damage boosted on the second attack of the stam morph like it used to be and made it bleed damage, it might be worth slotting. Maybe. Still a hard sell with the mag skill having the same damage, better sustain, and major/minor breech. But if they add the sustain suggestion I mention later, then it might be worth it on a mag build. Even with all those changes, if it's not bleed damage it's not going to be worth it so it needs to be this whole change I just mentioned or else it will never be used for stam warden, guaranteed. But both major and minor breech is so strong that I doubt even that kind of change would help, unless they made it proc 3 times or something, one after 3 seconds, one after 3 seconds again, and one after 3 seconds after that.
5. add 2% crit rate per Animal Companion skill slotted to Advanced Species alongside the 4% crit damage boost, since crit damage has a cap this is helpful but not a great DPS increase like the flat damage% used to be.
6. Lower the cost of basically every skill in dps warden's kit by 5-10%, AND give netch a "while slotted on either bar, increase your recovery (stam for stam and mag for mag) by 258."

[edited for trolling]

ESO_Nightingale

merpins wrote: »

ramdrop wrote: »

Patch notes tomorrow. Maybe we’ll be blessed.

[snip] We warden mains don't get buffs, only indifference.

as I mentioned on page 1, I'm a stam warden main. I think Warden needs better sustain and Stam Warden a bit more damage. The way to do this would be to:
1. make it so you only need to slot Bird of Prey on one ability bar to get its buffs on both,
2. you can make the stam morph of Fletcher Flies actually worth slotting over the mag version by either a. removing the one-at-a-time requirement that was added a while back or b. boosting the first target's DOT by 25-40%, and even THAT probably wouldn't make it stronger than just slotting the mag version due to that 50% damage increase on second cast and sustain boost that using mag gives.
3. buff Cutting Dive's bleed DOT by 20-50%.
4. I said on page 1 that the mag morph of Scorch is just better in every way. If they made the damage boosted on the second attack of the stam morph like it used to be and made it bleed damage, it might be worth slotting. Maybe. Still a hard sell with the mag skill having the same damage, better sustain, and major/minor breech. But if they add the sustain suggestion I mention later, then it might be worth it on a mag build. Even with all those changes, if it's not bleed damage it's not going to be worth it so it needs to be this whole change I just mentioned or else it will never be used for stam warden, guaranteed. But both major and minor breech is so strong that I doubt even that kind of change would help, unless they made it proc 3 times or something, one after 3 seconds, one after 3 seconds again, and one after 3 seconds after that.
5. add 2% crit rate per Animal Companion skill slotted to Advanced Species alongside the 4% crit damage boost, since crit damage has a cap this is helpful but not a great DPS increase like the flat damage% used to be.
6. Lower the cost of basically every skill in dps warden's kit by 5-10%, AND give netch a "while slotted on either bar, increase your recovery (stam for stam and mag for mag) by 258."

Regarding bird of prey, making it's bonus slotted effect active on both bars would be good, but it wouldn't lead to a dps increase in group pve content as minor berserk is already sourced elsewhere. Regarding growing swarm, removing the restriction of 1 target won't help it's userate very much as it wasn't picked much before, it's very much because fetcher does more single target damage. Cutting Dive already does a significant amount of damage. I think it's unnecessary to change it further. I think the actual problems regarding damage stems from sub assault getting more than 1/4 of it's damage removed for no realistic reason. Getting more animal companions/green balance bleed damage abilities would be nice for sure though just like frost warden wants a reworked morph of frozen gate.

[edited to remove quote]

ESO_Nightingale

ramdrop wrote: »

Patch notes tomorrow. Maybe we’ll be blessed.

I highly doubt we'll see any changes at this point. Maybe next quarter but probably not even then.

merpins

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

ramdrop wrote: »

Patch notes tomorrow. Maybe we’ll be blessed.

[snip] We warden mains don't get buffs, only indifference.

as I mentioned on page 1, I'm a stam warden main. I think Warden needs better sustain and Stam Warden a bit more damage. The way to do this would be to:
1. make it so you only need to slot Bird of Prey on one ability bar to get its buffs on both,
2. you can make the stam morph of Fletcher Flies actually worth slotting over the mag version by either a. removing the one-at-a-time requirement that was added a while back or b. boosting the first target's DOT by 25-40%, and even THAT probably wouldn't make it stronger than just slotting the mag version due to that 50% damage increase on second cast and sustain boost that using mag gives.
3. buff Cutting Dive's bleed DOT by 20-50%.
4. I said on page 1 that the mag morph of Scorch is just better in every way. If they made the damage boosted on the second attack of the stam morph like it used to be and made it bleed damage, it might be worth slotting. Maybe. Still a hard sell with the mag skill having the same damage, better sustain, and major/minor breech. But if they add the sustain suggestion I mention later, then it might be worth it on a mag build. Even with all those changes, if it's not bleed damage it's not going to be worth it so it needs to be this whole change I just mentioned or else it will never be used for stam warden, guaranteed. But both major and minor breech is so strong that I doubt even that kind of change would help, unless they made it proc 3 times or something, one after 3 seconds, one after 3 seconds again, and one after 3 seconds after that.
5. add 2% crit rate per Animal Companion skill slotted to Advanced Species alongside the 4% crit damage boost, since crit damage has a cap this is helpful but not a great DPS increase like the flat damage% used to be.
6. Lower the cost of basically every skill in dps warden's kit by 5-10%, AND give netch a "while slotted on either bar, increase your recovery (stam for stam and mag for mag) by 258."

Regarding bird of prey, making it's bonus slotted effect active on both bars would be good, but it wouldn't lead to a dps increase in group pve content as minor berserk is already sourced elsewhere. Regarding growing swarm, removing the restriction of 1 target won't help it's userate very much as it wasn't picked much before, it's very much because fetcher does more single target damage. Cutting Dive already does a significant amount of damage. I think it's unnecessary to change it further. I think the actual problems regarding damage stems from sub assault getting more than 1/4 of it's damage removed for no realistic reason. Getting more animal companions/green balance bleed damage abilities would be nice for sure though just like frost warden wants a reworked morph of frozen gate.

I mean the Sub Assault nerf was definitely part of the reason, with the other parts being the nerf to Advanced Species and the ice staff requirement for better damage on your ice skills while the class already has a sustain problem. Adding back that damage to sub assault, or as I mentioned above, adding a third instance of damage at its lower rate, would make sub assault a possible better choice than the mag counterpart, though having a skill that's loaded with both minor and major breach is great and kind of hard to pass up unless you have a dedicated tank with Pierce Armor in your party.

If Zos is insistent on making the weird weapon requirements, they could go crazy and make it so certain stamina skills get a big damage boost when you're wielding a sword or dagger, namely bleed skills as an example. I don't like it, but it would cause stam to get buffed.

[edited to remove quote]

ESO_Nightingale

merpins wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

ramdrop wrote: »

Patch notes tomorrow. Maybe we’ll be blessed.

[snip] We warden mains don't get buffs, only indifference.

as I mentioned on page 1, I'm a stam warden main. I think Warden needs better sustain and Stam Warden a bit more damage. The way to do this would be to:
1. make it so you only need to slot Bird of Prey on one ability bar to get its buffs on both,
2. you can make the stam morph of Fletcher Flies actually worth slotting over the mag version by either a. removing the one-at-a-time requirement that was added a while back or b. boosting the first target's DOT by 25-40%, and even THAT probably wouldn't make it stronger than just slotting the mag version due to that 50% damage increase on second cast and sustain boost that using mag gives.
3. buff Cutting Dive's bleed DOT by 20-50%.
4. I said on page 1 that the mag morph of Scorch is just better in every way. If they made the damage boosted on the second attack of the stam morph like it used to be and made it bleed damage, it might be worth slotting. Maybe. Still a hard sell with the mag skill having the same damage, better sustain, and major/minor breech. But if they add the sustain suggestion I mention later, then it might be worth it on a mag build. Even with all those changes, if it's not bleed damage it's not going to be worth it so it needs to be this whole change I just mentioned or else it will never be used for stam warden, guaranteed. But both major and minor breech is so strong that I doubt even that kind of change would help, unless they made it proc 3 times or something, one after 3 seconds, one after 3 seconds again, and one after 3 seconds after that.
5. add 2% crit rate per Animal Companion skill slotted to Advanced Species alongside the 4% crit damage boost, since crit damage has a cap this is helpful but not a great DPS increase like the flat damage% used to be.
6. Lower the cost of basically every skill in dps warden's kit by 5-10%, AND give netch a "while slotted on either bar, increase your recovery (stam for stam and mag for mag) by 258."

Regarding bird of prey, making it's bonus slotted effect active on both bars would be good, but it wouldn't lead to a dps increase in group pve content as minor berserk is already sourced elsewhere. Regarding growing swarm, removing the restriction of 1 target won't help it's userate very much as it wasn't picked much before, it's very much because fetcher does more single target damage. Cutting Dive already does a significant amount of damage. I think it's unnecessary to change it further. I think the actual problems regarding damage stems from sub assault getting more than 1/4 of it's damage removed for no realistic reason. Getting more animal companions/green balance bleed damage abilities would be nice for sure though just like frost warden wants a reworked morph of frozen gate.

I mean the Sub Assault nerf was definitely part of the reason, with the other parts being the nerf to Advanced Species and the ice staff requirement for better damage on your ice skills while the class already has a sustain problem. Adding back that damage to sub assault, or as I mentioned above, adding a third instance of damage at its lower rate, would make sub assault a possible better choice than the mag counterpart, though having a skill that's loaded with both minor and major breach is great and kind of hard to pass up unless you have a dedicated tank with Pierce Armor in your party.

If Zos is insistent on making the weird weapon requirements, they could go crazy and make it so certain stamina skills get a big damage boost when you're wielding a sword or dagger, namely bleed skills as an example. I don't like it, but it would cause stam to get buffed.

Weapon requirements only feel necessary for the frost staff as it's only got a unique bonus for tanking, stuff like daggers and 2h are already good as is. That being said, the bonuses they have for winter's revenge are unnecessarily locked behind destro staff and piercing cold offers almost nothing for non ice staff builds. You're right in this regard. And crit damage is definitely worse than regular damage because of the cap. For sub assault I'd love if it dealt bleed damage and applied a small little dot that lasts 3 seconds.

[edited to remove quote]

ramdrop

We got nothing.

The problem is as you quote rightly pointed out the massive damage nerf to shalks. It’s the bread and butter and core mechanic of the warden.

The warden is behind in trials and dungeons and by buffing the damage, maybe we can compete.

Why should I synchronise my build and bars around this skill if I’m not wanted in raids over a 3 button every 10s class..

ESO_Nightingale

ramdrop wrote: »

We got nothing.

The problem is as you quote rightly pointed out the massive damage nerf to shalks. It’s the bread and butter and core mechanic of the warden.

The warden is behind in trials and dungeons and by buffing the damage, maybe we can compete.

Why should I synchronise my build and bars around this skill if I’m not wanted in raids over a 3 button every 10s class..

If they returned shalks' damage and some piercing cold damage for everyone, we'd be in a lot better of a spot regarding pve. I'm not a fan of the current design of deep fissure. They should revisit it's design soon.

ramdrop

I completely agree, maybe there’s hope within U40.

ESO_Nightingale

ramdrop wrote: »

I completely agree, maybe there’s hope within U40.

Maybe, but I'm worried overall after q3 having the biggest lack of content in a long time. I expect that q4 and q2 next year will still feel underbaked and we'll just receive less content overall going forward.

dogmycats

I always want a warden dd with frost staff, but its so weak and i never have a chance to use it.

ESO_Nightingale

dogmycats wrote: »

I always want a warden dd with frost staff, but its so weak and i never have a chance to use it.

Warden is actually at its best with a frost staff, it's just the class that is in a bad spot right now

Twohothardware

Hopefully U40 will bring some much needed damage buffs to Warden. It's in a similar spot with Necro and these two classes are just simply too far behind in dps to Dragonknight and Arcanist.

Twohothardware

On the PvP side I think it's time to bring back undodgeable Cutting Dive. This is the main primary spammable skill of the class and just like with Necro's Skulls it's not useable in PvP because it's telegraphed, too slow to land, and too easy to dodge roll.

boi_anachronism_

SandandStars wrote: »

Expect to see Warden, Magsorc, & Templar slowly nerfed in little and then bigger ways while NB continues to get improvements.

You wanna see a dps class thats collecting dust in endgame? Its blade. I main a blade and im in trifecta progs. I have to bring another toon for progs.The only time they are deemed useful is for vas because they have great self sustain and healing. There is literally no reason to bring them. Damage is too inconsistent and rotations are too easily thrown by mechs. The only blades ive seen in endgame are, wait for it, nb healers. They are strong in pvp. Outclassed basically everywhere else. Sorc brings major berserk. No team runs without it.

MindOfTheSwarm

Piercing Cold is fine. The boost to Frost Staff is to offset the boosts that Inferno and Lightning Staves get in their passives. Something the Ice Staff lacks.

Twohothardware

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Piercing Cold is fine. The boost to Frost Staff is to offset the boosts that Inferno and Lightning Staves get in their passives. Something the Ice Staff lacks.

Warden would be helped a lot in dps if they would stop trying to make Ice Staff a tanking weapon and give it Destruction Staff passives similar to Inferno/Lightning. It would open up more build diversity for DPS.

Magicka has so few options for weapons when Melee has four types of Dual Wield, four types of Two Handed, and Bow. We're stuck with melee weapons (daggers) being meta for Magicka builds.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Piercing Cold is fine. The boost to Frost Staff is to offset the boosts that Inferno and Lightning Staves get in their passives. Something the Ice Staff lacks.

It's not fine to be honest. The bonus on tbe passive when you dont have an ice staff simply isn't strong enough.

Twohothardware

At least two of these skills under the Green Balance tree need to be scraped and completely overhauled to do something else with new animations. Lotus Blossom and Nature's Grasp are the two I never see being run in PvE or PvP.

Warden has too many skills that are healing and these need to be converted into more AOE damage or a trash pull skill. The Major Prophecy is just going to waste on Lotus Blossom because noone uses that skill to get the buff.

ESO_Nightingale

Twohothardware wrote: »

At least two of these skills under the Green Balance tree need to be scraped and completely overhauled to do something else with new animations. Lotus Blossom and Nature's Grasp are the two I never see being run in PvE or PvP.

Warden has too many skills that are healing and these need to be converted into more AOE damage or a trash pull skill. The Major Prophecy is just going to waste on Lotus Blossom because noone uses that skill to get the buff.

i only ever use lotus blossom in overland because i don't want to waste spell damage pots there. otherwise, incredibly weak skill/morph that offers little dps benefit in actual content.

ESO_Nightingale

Alright, we'll see pts notes in less than 24 hours. Here's hoping.

Twohothardware

Yeah I was just getting ready to level up a Mag Warden so I'm also hoping we see some damage buffs to Warden and Necro tomorrow.

Lancer1602

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Alright, we'll see pts notes in less than 24 hours. Here's hoping.

Where do you get your hopium from? I ran out long time ago

ESO_Nightingale

Lancer1602 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Alright, we'll see pts notes in less than 24 hours. Here's hoping.

Where do you get your hopium from? I ran out long time ago

Man i dunno anymore

Skullstachio

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lancer1602 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Alright, we'll see pts notes in less than 24 hours. Here's hoping.

Where do you get your hopium from? I ran out long time ago

Man i dunno anymore

Hope is the one thing in the universe that can never be snuffed out (hopium too.)
Side note: I did my homework on a good warden build and thought our bear huggers out there could use something semi-new.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/643126/warden-pve-build-the-barbearian

I even outlined a few possible weaknesses in the build (but there is always more insight to behold.)

On another side note, I reckon one/two handed axes should have the bleed effects returned to them (since it was removed back in patch V6.3.5 prior to update 29.) but I may have a better Idea…

Heavy Weapons II: Direct Damage done from non-ultimate Two-Handed Abilities applies a non-refreshable bleed effect, dealing an additional [X] bleed damage over 20 seconds and Granting a bonus based on the type of weapon used against them:

• Greatswords increase your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.
• Greataxes increase your Critical Damage done by 12%.
• Two-handed Mauls increase your Armor Penetration by 2974.

The Bleed Effect from Heavy Weapons II would only be Half as strong as the Flame DoT from a Tri Focus inferno Staff as it would be incorporating the bonuses based on the weapon used against targets affected by the non-refreshable bleed from the partly-new Heavy Weapons passive.

And regarding the current iteration of Piercing Cold: I reckon it ought to be 10% instead of 12% when wielding a frost staff, but also it could include Two-Handed Weapons as well.

Piercing Cold II: Increases your damage done by 2%, which increases to 10% when wielding an Ice Staff or Two Handed Weapon.

Including two-handed weapons in piercing cold makes the "piercing" implication more clearer and it opens one of many stamina based doors that may have been closed to wardens before. But I can imagine these thoughts not sitting well with some.

ESO_Nightingale

Skullstachio wrote: »

And regarding the current iteration of Piercing Cold: I reckon it ought to be 10% instead of 12% when wielding a frost staff, but also it could include Two-Handed Weapons as well.

Piercing Cold II: Increases your damage done by 2%, which increases to 10% when wielding an Ice Staff or Two Handed Weapon.

Including two-handed weapons in piercing cold makes the "piercing" implication more clearer and it opens one of many stamina based doors that may have been closed to wardens before. But I can imagine these thoughts not sitting well with some.

Piercing Cold was 10% instead of 12% during the firesong pts and they buffed it.
your suggestion heavily pushes warden into using a 2h weapon all the time. as it is, it's already strong that it buffs all of wardens damage by 10 additional % when using an ice staff, but this is to make up for the fact that the ice staff has no damage bonus from ancient knowledge it's already overtuned. 2h weapons already have a fairly strong bonus, so adding the same amount to piercing cold for them misses the point completely.

Piercing cold's current iteration is not liked because the entire kit's damage was brought down heavily during lost depths, it was only raised back up specifically for frost wardens due to the changes to piercing cold (non ice staff builds only got a measily 2% increase) and glacial presence (which was specifically tailored towards frost staff builds being literally insane at applying it). the advanced species change was terrible because of the crit cap, so if you have a khajiit character, you're overcapping pretty fast.

The ice staff needs a bonus that makes it good and piercing cold currently gives it that, but honestly it needs to be much more beneficial to the entire line and the frost staff specific bonus should be tailored towards specifically frost staff wardens with a bonus like "increases your frost and bleed damage done by 6%" while you have an ice staff equipped, the frost damage bonus increases to 16%" or something to that effect.

ESO_Nightingale

i sort of understand the permafrost nerfs from a "this isn't the damage morph but it does more damage than the damage morph" perspective, however the ultimate is kinda weak outside of pvp and i don't know anyone who used permafrost over northern storm anyway.